Should legacy tournaments allow players to use proxies like vintage does?
With the reserved list, it is becoming very hard to obtain legacy staples unless you either have a lot of money to blow or have been playing since the beginning.
Would allowing up to 5 proxies bring more players into the format and increase its popularity, or should we tell newer players to forget about this format and go play modern instead?
I don't mind 5-proxies for smaller tournaments, especially in areas where turnout is low. However, proxies has a negative effect on the health of the format, as can be seen in the decay of Vintage. Even though Legacy is much healthier and can sustain proxies more easily than Vintage can, I don't want it to go anywhere near the same rout.
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Due to real-life obligations, I am taking a long break from Magic which may include missing the local Legacy GP. Apologies for not being able to keep my threads updated.
I wouldn't want to play in a tournament in which proxies were allowed.
I'll gladly play casual games with, and against, proxies all day long: I mean how else am I supposed to get experience playing against Lands? Between rounds, or just hanging around on a weekday, I'm always up for a game. Heck, I'll play against a proxied Vintage deck for a laugh. Having proxies in a deck doesn't mean one won't get to play it.
Your question isn't about this, it's about using proxies in a tournament setting.
For tournaments, it's expected folks are sleeving their best tech, playing to win, and bringing the bling. I don't even want to see white-bordered Brainstorms or basic lands from the draft box (though I would never actually say anything, they earn a slightly questioning glance): how, then, should I tolerate proxies? [shudders]
As a general thing I think it's a
Bad idea...however on a store level it might be a good decision to help grow the format locally (especially if there are staples as prizes)
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Current Decks
Standard BEtched Champion/InfectB WSoilders/knightsW WUVenser SplicerWU RRDWR GFeed the Pack comboG WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH GEzuri, Elf OverrunG BGeth, GraverobberB UThada Adel, ThiefU RUrabrask, Big RedR WElesh Norn, CrusadeW WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
I am fine with proxies for LGS tournaments, for any sanctioned event Proxies are not allowed
That's my opinion. My LGS hosts weekly Legacy tournaments with proxies and another LGS holds one each month where you're allowed 12 proxies and has a dual land of your choice as a prize. Both have healthy attendance and after a few months some were able to build their decks completely.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy:UR Sneak and Show IUBG Team America IX Metalworker MUD Modern:UBR Blue Jund IWBX Eldrazi Processors IX Affinity IWRG Nacatl Burn IGR Tron IUBR Grishoalbrand
Ummmm, no. Vintage DIED because proxies started the abrupt decay of that format as we know it (see what I did there?) Within a few years of proxies being allowed in every single vintage tournament in the U.S. sans Gen Con the format was all but dead. I know its completely dead in my area except for maybe less than 5 people or so. And when proxy tournaments for vintage are held, nobody cares. The attendance for said tournament was something like 12 the last time my LGS held a vintage tournament. The only other tournament with big money on the line like that tournament was modern. Why is vintage dead in the states? All the power is in Europe when we sold all our pieces of power to them 10 years ago and they have been enjoying vintage ever since.
Proxies are not needed for legacy. The argument that staples are too much kind of holds water, but in comparison to vintage legacy looks like a super budget friendly format. Once you obtain all the legacy staples, there is almost no upkeep cost as well to maintain your legacy collection or to build other decks (I own 40 fetches and duals as well as playsets of FoW, LED, jace, etc. etc. and I know I don't spend much money on legacy cards anymore when I decide to build a new deck. The only money I'm spending on legacy nowadays is on pimp cards like korean wastelands among other things.)
The DCI will never allow proxies in a sanctioned tournament. The day they do I will completely sell out of magic, as it would mean the game would collapse in on itself within a year. Why own $100 pieces of cardboard when I can sell said cardboard and proxy on the back of a basic land or a deviant glee? Not to mention sales would collapse for WotC and they would quickly go under. Proxies are NOT a good thing and I will stand by that statement until I die. The only proxies I use are in my cube, and that's because it's unsanctioned and pretty casual in nature. And even in there I don't use that many proxies as I like to own real cards thank you very much.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
We have an unwritten rule at my LGS. We allow proxies in decks, but if you face someone who has a problem with you have proxies then the person with the proxies autoscoops to his opponent.
I never play proxies, but I am accepting of others playing proxies because I like having a greater variety of opponents to play, and I it gives newer players an opportunity to experience the format and help decide what deck they want to build.
For tournaments, it's expected folks are sleeving their best tech, playing to win, and bringing the bling. I don't even want to see white-bordered Brainstorms or basic lands from the draft box (though I would never actually say anything, they earn a slightly questioning glance): how, then, should I tolerate proxies? [shudders]
the best way to throw off your opponent is to play beaten-up 7th and 8th Edition basic lands
I don't even want to see white-bordered Brainstorms or basic lands from the draft box (though I would never actually say anything, they earn a slightly questioning glance): how, then, should I tolerate proxies? [shudders]
You've taken elitism to a whole new level. Fact is, this is an elitist game, but some of us like see it as a legitimate contest of strategy - not funding. Would chess be a better game if you needed $100.00 to buy a queen or else play budget chess with a third rook instead? It would be a joke!
Even if they don't mind it at beginning after losing to proxied show and tell (for example) they will and people will eventually become greedy and we all know how it ends.
If you're only winning because your opponents don't have the cards to play the deck of their choice, how can you be proud of winning? Where's the sense of accomplishment?
That said, I would like to see proxies if it grew the game, but not if it killed it. I could see a lot of people leaving Legacy. Just as easily, I could see people flocking to the newly affordable Legacy and dumping standard - to the point where Hasbro no longer produces or sanctions MTG. An interesting question - if MTG were no longer produced/supported, would people still play it? Would third parties (like SCG) still run big events?
As to Vintage being killed by proxies, I'm not convinced. I think that game died as a result of:
Prices rising to high.
Legacy getting its own banned list, and become a much more diverse and interesting format.
Maybe proxies didn't kill Vintage - they just failed to save it.
Also, if WotC sold us nice looking proxies, some of us would be happier to play with or against them.
Proxies will kill a game simply because there's no incentive to get cards. That means no money to WotC, and then they stop making cards.
I do agree that for groups that are just starting out, running ~10 proxy events for 6-8 weeks is fantastic, and actually how I got into playing legacy. It gives people a chance to try the format with decks that they have most of without having to buy into FoW or whatever. Most people find that Legacy is a lot of fun, and now have a real incentive to pick up cards, but without the risk of going 'I bought 4 Tundras, and I hate the format' which is a legitimate risk.
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Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Deadguy Ale WB
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
You've taken elitism to a whole new level. Fact is, this is an elitist game, but some of us like see it as a legitimate contest of strategy - not funding. Would chess be a better game if you needed $100.00 to buy a queen or else play budget chess with a third rook instead? It would be a joke!
It is elitism, but it's correct. Tournament players have a sense of elitism.
If people don't want o play in DCI sanctioned events and use proxies, fine, all the power to them. However, Legacy is a sanctioned format by WotC and SCG. Every Legacy GP or Legacy Sunday held by SCG is sanctioned by the DCI. Proxies are not allowed in these tournaments.
Play casual tournaments with proxies at your LGS till the sun comes up, but I'm one of the players who plays in the larger, sanctioned tournaments, and I will never believe proxies will be right for tournaments.
As to Vintage being killed by proxies, I'm not convinced. I think that game died as a result of:
Prices rising to high.
Legacy getting its own banned list, and become a much more diverse and interesting format.
Maybe proxies didn't kill Vintage - they just failed to save it.
How long have you been playing? Vintage (Type 1) started using proxies WELL before Legacy (Type 1.5) was a separate format. This is when Underground Sea was $15 and Black Lotus $450. And people STILL weren't playing Vintage for a number of reasons;
1) Extended was a better format
2) No one wanted to play in proxy tournaments because it wasn't sanctioned.
Wizards doesn't get a single penny for out of print cards.
But if Legacy were free, who would play standard or limited? Of course five proxies would not make Legacy free - or even cheaper (initially) than Standard. But there's the slippery slope concern.
How long have you been playing? Vintage (Type 1) started using proxies WELL before Legacy (Type 1.5) was a separate format.
Since you've asked this of me before - I first played in 1994 at University of Waterloo in the comfy lounge. I played every couple years since with borrowed cards, but never liked the game. I thought needing to own collectables in order to access strategy was stupid, elitist, and tainted the game as a legitimate test of skill. Also i was bitter that MTG had replaced bridge (a real strategy game) in the maths faculty.
It was until Onslaught block that I actually started liking the game and buying cards/building decks. At that time, Vintage was normally played without proxies - at least in my city. When 1.5 became Legacy, Vintage quickly died around here. It was much later, when vintage was obscure, that the only games could be found allowed proxies.
So you mean proxies that look like real cards? Why not just sell us, um, I dunno, real cards?
WotC could print and sell proxies for cheaper than real cards and without violating the official reprint policy. But they'd be much nicer (than home made proxies) to play with - like collector's edition and champ decks. Some people don't like playing against proxies because they are elitists, but many other wouldn't mind if the proxies weren't so ugly.
If I could just proxy up some Dreadbore and Rest in Peace I wouldn't have any reason to get RtR packs with store credit, or to trade for older cards I am looking for. And while things are out of print, no matter where I get my cards from (trading, secondary market) someone had to crack a pack.
It's hard to deal in singles when you know that any card worth more than $10 you'll never sell unless a collector walks in.
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Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Deadguy Ale WB
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
It was until Onslaught block that I actually started liking the game and buying cards/building decks. At that time, Vintage was normally played without proxies - at least in my city. When 1.5 became Legacy, Vintage quickly died around here. It was much later, when vintage was obscure, that the only games could be found allowed proxies.
Vintage in Southern Ontario was played with proxies when I first got into the Vintage scene, which was 2002. None of them were Sanctioned. And Southern Ontario has the largest MTG population in Canada.
WotC could print and sell proxies for cheaper than real cards and without violating the official reprint policy. But they'd be much nicer (than home made proxies) to play with - like collector's edition and champ decks. Some people don't like playing against proxies because they are elitists, but many other wouldn't mind if the proxies weren't so ugly.
So you want WotC to sell cards, sorry, proxies, that people won't be able to use in Sanctioned tournaments?
Maybe store who use charge the proxy players more than the person who has the cards. It would create and incentive to buy the cards. But, it depletes their resources to do so if they don't do we'll in the event.
I've heard of stores doing split events, where one. Time is proxies and the next it's not, as a way to create interest.
It's tough for people who have the cards and no no to play againsts too. I was playing Sow and Tell against burn but he had shocks which caused him to lose one game at least. Another guy had proxies bloodstained mires, but at least he could play for fun. Most of the magic players in meet don't have sustainable income, at least around here. Most that do just play standard or EDH.
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
I can wait. I already put off trying to finish Affinity because we all know that once formats rotate cards drop in price If in 2 years you can proxy, it punishes standard players even harder for playing that format because unloading cards post rotation is nearly impossible.
This is a trading card game. You're not really supposed to have easy access to everything, but with SCG/eBay as long as you've got the cash you do. There are ways to work around budget. I've made top 4 in >50% of my local tournaments over the past year running Godless Shrines because I didn't have Scrublands. Burn and Affinity are viable decks that most people can buy or trade into. A lot of people pool resources or borrow cards/decks for the night.
Being able to use proxies kills the value on everyone's cards, and while MtG isn't an investment per se, it'd be nice for people who play standard to not obviously get shafted every rotation.
I'm still against proxies outside of testing and a relatively short introductory window to get interest. It might not outright kill the game, but it would weaken it severely. SCG isn't going to run Legacy events if they can't unload a bunch of inventory at them.
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Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Deadguy Ale WB
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
To avoid that, Wotc can allow proxy only for cards which aren't on the market anymore. (2/3 Years old cards)
To avoid this entire issue, proxies could be illegal for sanctioned play.
To entirely kill the COLLECTIBLE part of this COLLECTIBLE CARD GAME (CCG) we could make any card "effectively" not standard legal worthless. Congratz legacy, modern (for any who play it), EDH, vintage and all other half-breed formats; you're now free 2 play. What's that, this drives people away from playing, well I never. Oh wait this just in - proxies are illegal and they'll stay that way.
/rant.
EDIT:
Personally I don't see how these threads (because one pops up every few weeks/months) are constructive or helpful to the community at all. I might as well suggest that I can bring a lighter with my deck and set my opponent's deck ablaze when he offers me a cut. Because neither of these "changes" will ever be allowed in tournament play and I kinda thought that was the point of this sub-forum, to discuss a sanctioned format (Legacy).
So you want WotC to sell cards, sorry, proxies, that people won't be able to use in Sanctioned tournaments?
Yes, like they used to with collector's editions and world champ decks. It's not a radical idea; it's a practice they actually stopped. These cards, sorry, proxies, actually fetch a bit of cash on eBay too.
My LGS runs Legacy sometimes with proxies (I think it's sanctioned as a casual event, worth one point or something), and sometimes without. Another local club allows up to five proxied duals.
But most of us don't run proxies. People who do just run a few and are usually slowing saving for the real cards, but in the meantime if they have CE or gold bordered they are nicer to play with.
Most of us (myself included) shell out for unglued or full art lands and black bordered Blood Moons, Sylvan Library, etc. My only white bordered cards are dual lands. Hundreds of dollars could be saved if we didn't want more pimp looking cards. So I'm not convinced printed proxies would kill the market for real cards.
Anyway, I just want Legacy to thrive and grow - that's my only motive on this issue. I'm not sure if sanctioning proxies is the way to go (probably not), but printing nice ones for the LGSs that already allow them would only encourage attendance I think.
Lending people cards is probably a better way than proxies. It won't incentivize people not to get cards. I lend cards to friends all the time so they can join tournaments. It makes them want the cards even more. They sometimes win local tournaments and buy a dual land.
Legacy is a bit expensive but not really if you slowly work up to it. People buy Smartphones and iPads all the time. Its just hard to dump all the money at once, thats why borrowing cards is good way to start.
In 6 months time, I bet a set of dual lands is worth more than the latest Smartphone craze.
^ I have no problem in Tournaments with Borrowed Cards.
Proxies should not be used unless, for "try it before you buy it" only in Casual games if opponent doesn't mind.
I was playing a newer player just last friday, a casual game with a Pauper deck and he started dropping Power9 proxies! Proxying the P9 without owning or thoughts of purchusing any should be frowned upon. Just looking for the most powerful cards without trying to improve the synergy of your deck does NOT help with building skills. He plays Black Lotus to cast Ponder then ends?!
When I started playing I had proxies in my first deck, but it was cards I could get in a day or two. some Commons, Uncommons ( x3 Treacherous Link) and 5 rares ( x2 Pariah's Shield & x3 Stuffy Doll) for my Pestilence deck.
I did my own card research (just read every single black card).
I kept it in budget(, I saw Black Lotus but knew I was never going to buy it. So I didn't give it another glance.)
I tried out the cards I was considering and after 20 games or so, unProxied them.
My LGS runs Legacy sometimes with proxies (I think it's sanctioned as a casual event, worth one point or something), and sometimes without. Another local club allows up to five proxied duals.
1.1 Tournament Types
Sanctioned tournaments are divided into two types: Premier and non-Premier. Premier tournaments are run by Wizards of the Coast or select Tournament Organizers. They have unique names and features. Non-Premier tournaments are tournaments that are not explicitly Premier.
There are two major tournament formats: Limited and Constructed. Each has rules specific to its format. In Limited tournaments, all product for play is provided during the tournament. In Constructed tournaments, players compete using decks prepared beforehand. Some Premier tournaments may consist of multiple formats within the same tournament.
3.4 Proxy Cards
A proxy card is used during competition to represent an Authorized Game Card that has been accidentally damaged or excessively worn in the current tournament (including damaged or misprinted Limited product) as determined solely by the Head Judge. Proxies are not allowed as substitutes for cards damaged intentionally or through negligence.
Players may not create their own proxies; they may only be created by the Head Judge. When a judge creates a proxy, it is included in the player’s deck and must be denoted as a proxy in a clear and conspicuous manner. The original card is kept nearby during the match and replaces the proxy while in a public zone as long as it is recognizable. A proxy is valid only for the duration of the tournament in which it was originally issued.
Official checklist cards in the Innistrad Block are Authorized Game Cards and may have a proxy issued by a judge.
It is fraudulent to run DCI sanctioned tournaments that allow proxies unless noted in the circumstances above.
And there's a reason they stopped making those World Championship decks, no one bought them.
Edit:
3.3 Authorized Cards
Players may use any Authorized Game Cards from Magic: The Gathering expansions, core sets, special sets, supplements, and promotional printings. Authorized Game Cards are cards that, unaltered, meet the following conditions:
• The card is genuine and published by Wizards of the Coast
• The card has a standard Magic back or is a double-faced card.
• The card does not have squared corners.
• The card has black or white borders.
• The card is not a token card.
• The card is not damaged or modified in a way that might make it marked.
• The card is otherwise legal for the tournament as defined by the format.
• The card is a proxy issued by the judge of a tournament (see section 3.4 for rules about proxies).
Any other cards that are not Authorized Game Cards are prohibited in all sanctioned tournaments.
With the reserved list, it is becoming very hard to obtain legacy staples unless you either have a lot of money to blow or have been playing since the beginning.
Would allowing up to 5 proxies bring more players into the format and increase its popularity, or should we tell newer players to forget about this format and go play modern instead?
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingSimple as that.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I'll gladly play casual games with, and against, proxies all day long: I mean how else am I supposed to get experience playing against Lands? Between rounds, or just hanging around on a weekday, I'm always up for a game. Heck, I'll play against a proxied Vintage deck for a laugh. Having proxies in a deck doesn't mean one won't get to play it.
Your question isn't about this, it's about using proxies in a tournament setting.
For tournaments, it's expected folks are sleeving their best tech, playing to win, and bringing the bling. I don't even want to see white-bordered Brainstorms or basic lands from the draft box (though I would never actually say anything, they earn a slightly questioning glance): how, then, should I tolerate proxies? [shudders]
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Bad idea...however on a store level it might be a good decision to help grow the format locally (especially if there are staples as prizes)
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
That's my opinion. My LGS hosts weekly Legacy tournaments with proxies and another LGS holds one each month where you're allowed 12 proxies and has a dual land of your choice as a prize. Both have healthy attendance and after a few months some were able to build their decks completely.
Definite no for sanctioned tournaments, though.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy: UR Sneak and Show I UBG Team America I X Metalworker MUD
Modern: UBR Blue Jund I WBX Eldrazi Processors I X Affinity I WRG Nacatl Burn I GR Tron I UBR Grishoalbrand
Ain't this an October surprise!
Proxies are for practice, not play.
Proxies are not needed for legacy. The argument that staples are too much kind of holds water, but in comparison to vintage legacy looks like a super budget friendly format. Once you obtain all the legacy staples, there is almost no upkeep cost as well to maintain your legacy collection or to build other decks (I own 40 fetches and duals as well as playsets of FoW, LED, jace, etc. etc. and I know I don't spend much money on legacy cards anymore when I decide to build a new deck. The only money I'm spending on legacy nowadays is on pimp cards like korean wastelands among other things.)
The DCI will never allow proxies in a sanctioned tournament. The day they do I will completely sell out of magic, as it would mean the game would collapse in on itself within a year. Why own $100 pieces of cardboard when I can sell said cardboard and proxy on the back of a basic land or a deviant glee? Not to mention sales would collapse for WotC and they would quickly go under. Proxies are NOT a good thing and I will stand by that statement until I die. The only proxies I use are in my cube, and that's because it's unsanctioned and pretty casual in nature. And even in there I don't use that many proxies as I like to own real cards thank you very much.
Currently Playing:
Retired
I never play proxies, but I am accepting of others playing proxies because I like having a greater variety of opponents to play, and I it gives newer players an opportunity to experience the format and help decide what deck they want to build.
the best way to throw off your opponent is to play beaten-up 7th and 8th Edition basic lands
You've taken elitism to a whole new level. Fact is, this is an elitist game, but some of us like see it as a legitimate contest of strategy - not funding. Would chess be a better game if you needed $100.00 to buy a queen or else play budget chess with a third rook instead? It would be a joke!
If you're only winning because your opponents don't have the cards to play the deck of their choice, how can you be proud of winning? Where's the sense of accomplishment?
That said, I would like to see proxies if it grew the game, but not if it killed it. I could see a lot of people leaving Legacy. Just as easily, I could see people flocking to the newly affordable Legacy and dumping standard - to the point where Hasbro no longer produces or sanctions MTG. An interesting question - if MTG were no longer produced/supported, would people still play it? Would third parties (like SCG) still run big events?
As to Vintage being killed by proxies, I'm not convinced. I think that game died as a result of:
Also, if WotC sold us nice looking proxies, some of us would be happier to play with or against them.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I do agree that for groups that are just starting out, running ~10 proxy events for 6-8 weeks is fantastic, and actually how I got into playing legacy. It gives people a chance to try the format with decks that they have most of without having to buy into FoW or whatever. Most people find that Legacy is a lot of fun, and now have a real incentive to pick up cards, but without the risk of going 'I bought 4 Tundras, and I hate the format' which is a legitimate risk.
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
It is elitism, but it's correct. Tournament players have a sense of elitism.
If people don't want o play in DCI sanctioned events and use proxies, fine, all the power to them. However, Legacy is a sanctioned format by WotC and SCG. Every Legacy GP or Legacy Sunday held by SCG is sanctioned by the DCI. Proxies are not allowed in these tournaments.
Play casual tournaments with proxies at your LGS till the sun comes up, but I'm one of the players who plays in the larger, sanctioned tournaments, and I will never believe proxies will be right for tournaments.
How long have you been playing? Vintage (Type 1) started using proxies WELL before Legacy (Type 1.5) was a separate format. This is when Underground Sea was $15 and Black Lotus $450. And people STILL weren't playing Vintage for a number of reasons;
1) Extended was a better format
2) No one wanted to play in proxy tournaments because it wasn't sanctioned.
So you mean proxies that look like real cards? Why not just sell us, um, I dunno, real cards?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
But if Legacy were free, who would play standard or limited? Of course five proxies would not make Legacy free - or even cheaper (initially) than Standard. But there's the slippery slope concern.
Since you've asked this of me before - I first played in 1994 at University of Waterloo in the comfy lounge. I played every couple years since with borrowed cards, but never liked the game. I thought needing to own collectables in order to access strategy was stupid, elitist, and tainted the game as a legitimate test of skill. Also i was bitter that MTG had replaced bridge (a real strategy game) in the maths faculty.
It was until Onslaught block that I actually started liking the game and buying cards/building decks. At that time, Vintage was normally played without proxies - at least in my city. When 1.5 became Legacy, Vintage quickly died around here. It was much later, when vintage was obscure, that the only games could be found allowed proxies.
WotC could print and sell proxies for cheaper than real cards and without violating the official reprint policy. But they'd be much nicer (than home made proxies) to play with - like collector's edition and champ decks. Some people don't like playing against proxies because they are elitists, but many other wouldn't mind if the proxies weren't so ugly.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
They should only be at LGS level where the prize is always store credit.
It's hard to deal in singles when you know that any card worth more than $10 you'll never sell unless a collector walks in.
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
Vintage in Southern Ontario was played with proxies when I first got into the Vintage scene, which was 2002. None of them were Sanctioned. And Southern Ontario has the largest MTG population in Canada.
So you want WotC to sell cards, sorry, proxies, that people won't be able to use in Sanctioned tournaments?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I've heard of stores doing split events, where one. Time is proxies and the next it's not, as a way to create interest.
It's tough for people who have the cards and no no to play againsts too. I was playing Sow and Tell against burn but he had shocks which caused him to lose one game at least. Another guy had proxies bloodstained mires, but at least he could play for fun. Most of the magic players in meet don't have sustainable income, at least around here. Most that do just play standard or EDH.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=4832736
Trading 10 full art zen basics for 8 of yours!
I want
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
This is a trading card game. You're not really supposed to have easy access to everything, but with SCG/eBay as long as you've got the cash you do. There are ways to work around budget. I've made top 4 in >50% of my local tournaments over the past year running Godless Shrines because I didn't have Scrublands. Burn and Affinity are viable decks that most people can buy or trade into. A lot of people pool resources or borrow cards/decks for the night.
Being able to use proxies kills the value on everyone's cards, and while MtG isn't an investment per se, it'd be nice for people who play standard to not obviously get shafted every rotation.
I'm still against proxies outside of testing and a relatively short introductory window to get interest. It might not outright kill the game, but it would weaken it severely. SCG isn't going to run Legacy events if they can't unload a bunch of inventory at them.
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
To avoid this entire issue, proxies could be illegal for sanctioned play.
To entirely kill the COLLECTIBLE part of this COLLECTIBLE CARD GAME (CCG) we could make any card "effectively" not standard legal worthless. Congratz legacy, modern (for any who play it), EDH, vintage and all other half-breed formats; you're now free 2 play. What's that, this drives people away from playing, well I never. Oh wait this just in - proxies are illegal and they'll stay that way.
/rant.
EDIT:
Personally I don't see how these threads (because one pops up every few weeks/months) are constructive or helpful to the community at all. I might as well suggest that I can bring a lighter with my deck and set my opponent's deck ablaze when he offers me a cut. Because neither of these "changes" will ever be allowed in tournament play and I kinda thought that was the point of this sub-forum, to discuss a sanctioned format (Legacy).
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Yes, like they used to with collector's editions and world champ decks. It's not a radical idea; it's a practice they actually stopped. These cards, sorry, proxies, actually fetch a bit of cash on eBay too.
My LGS runs Legacy sometimes with proxies (I think it's sanctioned as a casual event, worth one point or something), and sometimes without. Another local club allows up to five proxied duals.
But most of us don't run proxies. People who do just run a few and are usually slowing saving for the real cards, but in the meantime if they have CE or gold bordered they are nicer to play with.
Most of us (myself included) shell out for unglued or full art lands and black bordered Blood Moons, Sylvan Library, etc. My only white bordered cards are dual lands. Hundreds of dollars could be saved if we didn't want more pimp looking cards. So I'm not convinced printed proxies would kill the market for real cards.
Anyway, I just want Legacy to thrive and grow - that's my only motive on this issue. I'm not sure if sanctioning proxies is the way to go (probably not), but printing nice ones for the LGSs that already allow them would only encourage attendance I think.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Legacy is a bit expensive but not really if you slowly work up to it. People buy Smartphones and iPads all the time. Its just hard to dump all the money at once, thats why borrowing cards is good way to start.
In 6 months time, I bet a set of dual lands is worth more than the latest Smartphone craze.
Proxies should not be used unless, for "try it before you buy it" only in Casual games if opponent doesn't mind.
I was playing a newer player just last friday, a casual game with a Pauper deck and he started dropping Power9 proxies! Proxying the P9 without owning or thoughts of purchusing any should be frowned upon. Just looking for the most powerful cards without trying to improve the synergy of your deck does NOT help with building skills. He plays Black Lotus to cast Ponder then ends?!
When I started playing I had proxies in my first deck, but it was cards I could get in a day or two. some Commons, Uncommons ( x3 Treacherous Link) and 5 rares ( x2 Pariah's Shield & x3 Stuffy Doll) for my Pestilence deck.
I did my own card research (just read every single black card).
I kept it in budget(, I saw Black Lotus but knew I was never going to buy it. So I didn't give it another glance.)
I tried out the cards I was considering and after 20 games or so, unProxied them.
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It is fraudulent to run DCI sanctioned tournaments that allow proxies unless noted in the circumstances above.
And there's a reason they stopped making those World Championship decks, no one bought them.
Edit:
Just so we can squash that bug right now.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer