Reality Ripple would allow you to also phase out your dreadnought, so you get a 3 mana 12/12 with trample. Sapphire charm can only hit your opponent's creatures.
I want to casually into Legacy with a brew. I will be playing at events but willing to tolerate poor performance and jank. I want to play black with a blue splash and Nivmagus Elemental, tempo or control. Could such a thing produce decent matches? I'm envisioning black discard and disruption, blue manipulation and counters, and a couple other creatures. Looking at Darkslick Shores, Gemstone Mine and River of Tears for the blue manabase.
Also, are there any budget monoblack control variants that don't use Sorin or The Rack?
A u/b deck with Nivmagus is certainly possible. Darkslick shores is a great budget land, but I would stay away from gemstone mine and river of tears. What kind of budget did your have? $100, $200? More?
I think a mono black control variant that does not include the rack or sorin is possible, did you want me to delve deeper into that?
Thoughtpicker Witch is a pretty bad card, I can't think of anything it can do that something else can't do better.
A u/b deck with Nivmagus is certainly possible. Darkslick shores is a great budget land, but I would stay away from gemstone mine and river of tears. What kind of budget did your have? $100, $200? More?
I think a mono black control variant that does not include the rack or sorin is possible, did you want me to delve deeper into that?
Thoughtpicker Witch is a pretty bad card, I can't think of anything it can do that something else can't do better.
I'd like to start with a $100 niv list.
Then work my way towards a $200 black control list, preferably with ridiculous art and mechanics. I always gravitate to the black cards.
a $100 niv list is almost impossible thanks to the price of Flusterstorm, which is a MUST in any deck that uses him. You can get decently close though. This list is $150 if you use TCG low price.
The deck can be improved on by adding in Watery Grave, and eventually Thoughtseize, Daze, Force, and fetchlands + duals, though that is all far from now I'm sure.
A mono black control list without sorin or rack might be rough. Maybe Contamination Control? Liliana increasing in price has hurt the deck a bit, but it still does what it needs to.
Are there better options than the Snuff Out, if I'm not running the Watery Graves? If I am running the graves, should I just run three and replace three islands?
Over the past days I've also been thinking about land destruction. Does Death Cloud see play? And I was also curious about Maralen of the Mornsong, does black have enough disruption to use her to lock up the game? . . . Do those two cards make you want to build a deck?
You know, I had that in there when I was checking to see if watery grave was too expensive, and I just didnt take it out. lol. If you dont have watery grave then I would replace them with either Doom Blade or Go for the Throat. If you do this however, you are losing a good life loss tool for you. I think you would want to not play disfigure, and instead play at least 2 Ulcerate to make up for it.
Death Cloud sees play, but I don't know much about it honestly. I think there is a modern version that has a primer. I'll do some research and get back to you on it.
Spooky, I've been mulling over the UB nivmagus deck above, and I find myself questioning the black splash. I like t1 black mana, but I'm not sold on death's shadow, and I don't know what else might fit instead of it.
How problematic is the life loss? The phyrexian spells and nivmagus go together, and from there it's easy to include death's shadow, but did you consider any alternatives to it?
How do you think the list would run as a monoblue or mostlyblue? Is being able to t1 duress extremely good here?
Thanks again, the lists do look great, I'm just toying with ideas.
edit, did you find anything interesting with Death Cloud? The modern decks are playing it with planeswalkers, which isn't too interesting for me.
To be honest I don't think u/b is the best path to take when it comes to nivmagus. It's playable, but the best color combination with him is probably u/r. you get access to some better creatures to back him up (young pyromancer / delver of secrets) and you can keep the agression easier with burn spells.
mono blue is also possible. There should be a list for each of these somewhere in the primer.
Death cloud is another story. playing it without plainswalkers is tough. Artifact mana is probably the way to go. Maybe a b/r deck with wildfire as well?
For some reason the OP has only the headings, but no copy beyond that. I also tried the links in your signature, but they took me to the mtgs home page.
For the Contamination list, does bloodghast have a place there, perhaps in SB, or is he an upgrade to something? I have a set and will trade him away if not.
Thank you very much for this, as I somehow (don't ask) ended up w/enough QPs to play in the MOCS qualifiers online. This month, they are Legacy, of which I have never played a game. Your primer seems great, and I now have a 75 that I hope will not just flat-out lose to everything, while spending <$100.
I went w/your BG infect list, which seems intelligently adapted, but similar to the "Rubén Díaz, Liga de Legacy de Cantabria III" list that I found in the Infect Stompy primer in the Legacy Developing forum. I would like to offer a few thoughts, in the hope that they will be helpful.
Invigorates seem great when I have a forest in play. However, your list has 5 forests and mine has 6. Without a forest, the 2G casting cost is hard. I replaced the Invigorates in my list with Might of Old Krosas accordingly.
Online, Bayous are now less expensive than Inkmoth Nexuses, so for playing online they may merit consideration.
Maerlin, try a combo of Ghost Quarter with your Dust Bowl, since the Bowl costs mana to use. Also Crucible of Worlds, in a ? slot might be help to recycle used Glimmerposts, Ghost Quarters etc.
This is more or less the composition I Would suggest, with the urza lands being replaced with your 12 post lands. Buried Ruin is awesome in a deck like this, so I would like to stress its importance.
You don't have to run the expedition maps if you don't want, and I could certainly see the merit in 3-sphere. I would not play a full 4 of them though. 3 is usually the magic number.
Since you already have the Grim Monolith's I would replace the Dynamos and petals with the moniliths and maybe find room for 2 Voltaic Key.
Yes, those are my thoughts on the land destruction. Wasteland is at such a high price because it is the best at what it does. You can't really replace it, and attempting to do so might actually make your deck worse, because you could be running something better than your replacement card. I believe you would get much more out of Buried Ruin than you would dust bowl.
Only changes are 18 lands (which I think is quite enough) and 2 Runechanter's Pike.
I add 2 Runechanter's Pike to have another option to win apart from Phyrexian Dreadnought.
2 Mutavault are added to back up sprites and deliver a few extra points of damage, if it is needed. (although I am not quite sure about them).
Thinking about Daze. But I am not sure what to cut.
I agree with keeping the lands to 18, but I don't really like mutavault that much. The pike is interesting, hwoever I really think you need more than 4 cards that can get your dreadnought out. This is the list I have been toying with as of lately.
Stifle and Misdirection getting reprinted in conspiracy means you can get them for much cheaper than before. Stifle can be used outside of the dreadnought combo, and misdirection protects him (even from abrupt decay).
Ooops, i forgot to wrote stifles (from cons of course).
I have thoughts about mizzium Skin and misdirection as well, especially for SB.
Although I will try to keep some unsummons, i am planing to reuse them on sprites, or to save my creatures from removal.
I am not too sure about trinket mage as well. Like I said, the list above is just something I am testing at the moment. So far I have not really needed the mage. Either my protection helps me kill them with delver, or I get a really early dreadnought. The mage has only helped once or twice.
First of all, I want to thank you -spooky- for the primer. I read this a while ago and decided to build Phasenought with some modifications so that I could have something to play. So far these changes have lead to a pretty consistent deck but I have some questions that I was hoping you could answer about sideboarding and/or matchups.
I added Torpor Orb main because it helps our plan while also causing quite a bit of disruption to other decks. As you mentioned earlier, Conspiracy was quite kind to the deck and I was able to get the Stifles and Misdirections I needed to add a lot of consistency and protection from abrupt decay.
After reading some of the recent posts I feel like the pike could be a decent inclusion though I've also considered Spellskite as an additional way to protect the 'nought.
I feel like my sideboard is a bit of a mess and I think it's because I have limited experience in the format. Cyclonic Rift is there to deal with troublesome non-land permanents. Mindbreak trap seems like a better, and cheaper, answer to storm than flusterstorm. The rest is basically additional counterspells for grindy control matchups but I feel like it could be doing more.
So far my worst loss was to the MUD stompy list above which used Trinisphere. Actually, it might have been Maerlin assuming he uses Untap.in. I was wondering if there are any good mono-U answers to 3sphere. I added the Hurkyl's Recall just for that sort of deck but maybe it's too narrow? I considered adding Shimmer but the deck didn't run the Urza lands which Shimmer would require. It was also very annoying to not be able to vision charm the mana base which, in my experience, is hilarious for me and backbreaking for the opponent.
Any comments or advice would be greatly appreciated!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am usually posting from my phone. I will usually be brief and there may be typos.
12/1/2004: Yes, you're allowed to have a deck consisting of sixty Relentless Rats and nothing else.
So Mogis is in the middle of a guitar solo, and then Phenax jumps in with
"I like big butts and I cannot lie..."
Decks:
BFZ Standard
Nothing yet Modern RBWMardu BurnWBR Legacy UUUPTSD NoughtUUU EDH WUDaxos VoltronUW UBRJeleva - Oops all your spellsRBU UBUVela, the Ninja Clad (retired)UBU
Brainstorm is a lackluster addition if you don't have fetchlands and other shuffle effects to compliment it. I would stay away from adding it in until you can find 6-8 fetches. Also, Reality Ripple is not really needed if you are running stifle and vision charm. Combined with the fact that you are also running torpor orb, I would try to replace it. Everything else looks fine though.
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Also, are there any budget monoblack control variants that don't use Sorin or The Rack?
Does Thoughtpicker Witch see any play?
I think a mono black control variant that does not include the rack or sorin is possible, did you want me to delve deeper into that?
Thoughtpicker Witch is a pretty bad card, I can't think of anything it can do that something else can't do better.
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I'd like to start with a $100 niv list.
Then work my way towards a $200 black control list, preferably with ridiculous art and mechanics. I always gravitate to the black cards.
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nivmagus Elemental
Spells [32]
2 Clout of the Dominus
2 Disfigure
4 Duress
4 Flusterstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Gut Shot
2 Mizzium Skin
4 Ponder
4 Snuff Out
4 Spell Pierce
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Island
4 Swamp
4 Underground River
The deck can be improved on by adding in Watery Grave, and eventually Thoughtseize, Daze, Force, and fetchlands + duals, though that is all far from now I'm sure.
A mono black control list without sorin or rack might be rough. Maybe Contamination Control? Liliana increasing in price has hurt the deck a bit, but it still does what it needs to.
1 Creakwood Liege
4 Reassembling Skeleton
4 Ophiomancer
Spells [28]
2 Tragic Slip
2 Dimir Machinations
4 Contamination
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Duress
2 Geth's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mutilate
23 Swamp
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Are there better options than the Snuff Out, if I'm not running the Watery Graves? If I am running the graves, should I just run three and replace three islands?
Over the past days I've also been thinking about land destruction. Does Death Cloud see play? And I was also curious about Maralen of the Mornsong, does black have enough disruption to use her to lock up the game? . . . Do those two cards make you want to build a deck?
Death Cloud sees play, but I don't know much about it honestly. I think there is a modern version that has a primer. I'll do some research and get back to you on it.
Maralen of the Mornsong combos well with Stranglehold, Aven Mindcensor, Teferi's Puzzle Box, and Ob Nixilis, Unshackled. However, I would never play any of these combos in a competitive environment.
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Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
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How problematic is the life loss? The phyrexian spells and nivmagus go together, and from there it's easy to include death's shadow, but did you consider any alternatives to it?
How do you think the list would run as a monoblue or mostlyblue? Is being able to t1 duress extremely good here?
Thanks again, the lists do look great, I'm just toying with ideas.
edit, did you find anything interesting with Death Cloud? The modern decks are playing it with planeswalkers, which isn't too interesting for me.
mono blue is also possible. There should be a list for each of these somewhere in the primer.
Death cloud is another story. playing it without plainswalkers is tough. Artifact mana is probably the way to go. Maybe a b/r deck with wildfire as well?
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My signature links not working is strange. I'll have to try and figure out how to fix that. thanks for letting me know!
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I found a couple lists, your UR one is quoted in the post I'm linking, and the actual post has a monoblue list.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/budget-legacy/509194-budget-izzet-delver?comment=20
Maybe you need to click the blue spoiler buttons.
Maybe you can just link search results
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/search?search=super budget super series
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/search?search=budget legacy#t1:news
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Kiln Fiend
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Young Pyromancer
Spells [28]
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flusterstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Spell Pierce
8 Island
2 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef
4 Sulfur Falls
Or
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nivmagus Elemental
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Daze
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Spell Pierce
4 Flusterstorm
2 Vapor Snag
17 Island
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Thank you very much for this, as I somehow (don't ask) ended up w/enough QPs to play in the MOCS qualifiers online. This month, they are Legacy, of which I have never played a game. Your primer seems great, and I now have a 75 that I hope will not just flat-out lose to everything, while spending <$100.
I went w/your BG infect list, which seems intelligently adapted, but similar to the "Rubén Díaz, Liga de Legacy de Cantabria III" list that I found in the Infect Stompy primer in the Legacy Developing forum. I would like to offer a few thoughts, in the hope that they will be helpful.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Citanul Flute
4 Expedition Map
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
2 Lotus Petal
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Buried Ruin
4 Crystal Vein
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
This is more or less the composition I Would suggest, with the urza lands being replaced with your 12 post lands. Buried Ruin is awesome in a deck like this, so I would like to stress its importance.
You don't have to run the expedition maps if you don't want, and I could certainly see the merit in 3-sphere. I would not play a full 4 of them though. 3 is usually the magic number.
Since you already have the Grim Monolith's I would replace the Dynamos and petals with the moniliths and maybe find room for 2 Voltaic Key.
Staff of Nin and my flute are your flex slots.
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I am thinking to build Phasenought deck (have all cards, except phyrexian dreadnought).
This is a list I am thinking about:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Spellstutter Sprite
Spells
4 Counterspell
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
4 Preordain
4 Unsummon
4 Vision Charm
2 Runechanter's Pike
Lands
16 Island
2 Mutavault
Only changes are 18 lands (which I think is quite enough) and 2 Runechanter's Pike.
I add 2 Runechanter's Pike to have another option to win apart from Phyrexian Dreadnought.
2 Mutavault are added to back up sprites and deliver a few extra points of damage, if it is needed. (although I am not quite sure about them).
Thinking about Daze. But I am not sure what to cut.
All comments are well come,
Dejan
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Trinket Mage
2 Counterspell
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Mizzium Skin
4 Preordain
4 Misdirection
4 Vision Charm
4 Spell Pierce
18 Island
Stifle and Misdirection getting reprinted in conspiracy means you can get them for much cheaper than before. Stifle can be used outside of the dreadnought combo, and misdirection protects him (even from abrupt decay).
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I have thoughts about mizzium Skin and misdirection as well, especially for SB.
Although I will try to keep some unsummons, i am planing to reuse them on sprites, or to save my creatures from removal.
Something like:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Spellstutter Sprite
Spells
2 Counterspell
2 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
4 Preordain
2 Unsummon
2 Misdirection
4 Vision Charm
4 Stifle
2 Runechanter's Pike
Land
16 Island
2 Mutavault
I am not fond of Trinket Mage, 3 mana is little bit too high for my taste.
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1x Academy Ruins
16x Island
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Brainstorm
4x Vision Charm
4x Counterspell
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Reality Ripple
4x Misdirection
3x Preordain
2x Gitaxian Probe
3x Torpor Orb
4x Spell Pierce
2x Vapor Snag
2x Counterspell
2x Cyclonic Rift
2x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Mindbreak Trap
I added Torpor Orb main because it helps our plan while also causing quite a bit of disruption to other decks. As you mentioned earlier, Conspiracy was quite kind to the deck and I was able to get the Stifles and Misdirections I needed to add a lot of consistency and protection from abrupt decay.
After reading some of the recent posts I feel like the pike could be a decent inclusion though I've also considered Spellskite as an additional way to protect the 'nought.
I feel like my sideboard is a bit of a mess and I think it's because I have limited experience in the format. Cyclonic Rift is there to deal with troublesome non-land permanents. Mindbreak trap seems like a better, and cheaper, answer to storm than flusterstorm. The rest is basically additional counterspells for grindy control matchups but I feel like it could be doing more.
So far my worst loss was to the MUD stompy list above which used Trinisphere. Actually, it might have been Maerlin assuming he uses Untap.in. I was wondering if there are any good mono-U answers to 3sphere. I added the Hurkyl's Recall just for that sort of deck but maybe it's too narrow? I considered adding Shimmer but the deck didn't run the Urza lands which Shimmer would require. It was also very annoying to not be able to vision charm the mana base which, in my experience, is hilarious for me and backbreaking for the opponent.
Any comments or advice would be greatly appreciated!
Decks:
BFZ Standard
Nothing yet
Modern
RBWMardu BurnWBR
Legacy
UUUPTSD NoughtUUU
EDH
WUDaxos VoltronUW
UBRJeleva - Oops all your spellsRBU
UBUVela, the Ninja Clad (retired)UBU
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Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
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