I find spot removal to be better against Goblins and Merfolk most of the time. Merfolk have enough lords and counters to make your E Plague very meh. I use 2 Cold-Eyed Selkies, 4 Deeds, and 8 "Swords" for them and it works great. Use your spot removal to keep their board in check (in case they have a Glass Spinner) and try to bait them to land a Deed. They must answer a Selkie or it's game. (Fish splashing Black is much tougher than any other splash/nonsplash, work really hard to keep them off color if you can)
Against Goblins you must answer a first turn Lacky. Sometimes you need to answer more than one or even Instigators. Early spot removal is key. E Plague is great here once you get to 3 mana, but by then they could have out lords and then you'll need the spot removal for E Plague to work anyways. Better to shoot their dudes as they come out and give yourself enough cushion to drop a Deed mid-to-late game and seal the deal.
Diabolic Edict is another card I don't like, but I don't have time to go into that right now. It didn't seem like you have NO/Prog in your meta anyways. Run a single Karakas MD and that will be your secret tech in case anyone tries to sneak an Iona or Emrakul in against you. This deck should be able to eat up any non-combo meta.
P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
I've seen a lot of that in this thread.
It seems like a solid pick, especially since this deck runs a lot less creatures then: Gobbos, Merfolk, Dredge.
Also here is the list I am piloting, any opinions would be great, this is my first time building this deck, it's based off of observation & data from this thread.
dueling grounds can be bounced/destroyed on the turn that your opponent has enough creatures to overrun you ftw. it's a risky card to rely on against heavy aggro.
it's good against tribal. Merfolk rarely splashes green. Besides plagues doesn't do much against merfolk with all the lord effects they have anyway.
Goblins usually runs black before green. Plague is alright against gobos. It really only kills 8 creatures and tokens. as they rarely use gempalm incinerator as beatdown. It's good against dredge if you can make it taht far. Also with the new gobling king (haste and +1/+1) it is not that amazing.
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P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
it looks decent, not very different of the traditional dark horizons decks...
It should do fine, but there is one personal thing i would change... engineered explosives < deed... I think changing ee into deed wont be a messy change to your deck... but even if you dont, i do believe your deck is solid....
and i dont believe karakas isnt needed anymore, as survival is banned, you wont see any iona builds anymore... and there arent much other legends you might wanna bounce...
I think i would drop a ee for a deed. Yes deed can kill your diamonds. but tribal seems to be huge. because of that i think deed is better than ee.
I personally don't like horizon canopy in the rock. I think i would much rather have bojuka bog. It is nice g1 because it stops random rogue tech tricks. EE+ ruins, anything with loam, opposing knights etc.
EDIT: karakas isn't bad. It stops stupid sillyness from things like aoen bridge, ant( with sideboarded doomsday), reanimator( if anyone even plays that anymore) They could be a secret tech if you added doran. :):)!!!!
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P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
What does 4x Dueling Grounds do? Two in play gives you redundancy if they bounce with something other than the most popular bounce spell, Echoing Truth. It insanely well with Maze of Ith, but otherwise, I feel that 4th one is a poor use of the slot.
Dueling Grounds will hold back a tide of creatures, but even then that leaves a lot of turns for you to off one each swing of your knight unless you clean them up, thus once again I'd advocate for the use of a 1-of Enlightened Tutor in place of the 4th copy. I actually run my E.Tutor main in place of my 3rd Top since my meta is mostly aggro as well. If I need a Top, I can find one of the other two, I never get stuck with multiples that need shuffling away, it functions as having a mainboarded search for Deed/EE, and having such makes sideboarding easier as I found myself bringing it in in most of my matches to be able to fetch up my spare Deed/EE`s or Plagues from the side quicker.
While mostly cute and a bit of a pet card, there are some other applications for it, especially if you swing towards a critter build with Tidehollow Scullers in place of Verdicts/Hymns. Two bad uses for it are E.Tutor->Mox to guarantee survival of a Bob trigger or E.Tutor->Shuffle effect just to get to see some new stuff with Top when one is that low on options or really needs a StP.
Anyways, just my two cents. If it's worth bringing in 4 Dueling Grounds and 1 Deed to hold back a tide, it's more worth it to be bringing in 3 Dueling Grounds, 1 E.Tutor, and 1 Deed to increase your ability to wipe the table clean once you've stabilized behind the Grounds. For MU where the Grounds would do nothing (involving Dreadnought per say), the E.Tutor is still a worthwhile card to bring in while the 4 Grounds you'd have sitting in your sideboard otherwise would be doing nothing
On the main decked wipes, I personally am enjoying my E-Tutor->EE and Deed. EE is easier to sneak down around a Counterbalance, and can hit Jace as well if he's favored in your metagame. Dropping and activating EE to clear of Zoo's 1 or 2 drops is always a mana cheaper to do as well if you're needing to pop it quick. Hitting 2 before GB1 against dredge is a lot easier as well. Only one copy of EE is needed though, Deed just wrecks too delightfully otherwise.
Just as a side note: if you are having trouble with the TES matchup (and we ARE) Gaddock Teeg is a great sideboard card. because they will have to spend time getting and playing their bounce instead of winning the game. and during that time, you ARE winning the game.
The reason I don't use Dueling Grounds is because it feels like catchup. I'd rather be in pretty good control of the early game rather than wait until turn 2 or 3 to throw down a DG and hope they can't bounce it (Echoing Truth, Hibernation, Chain of Vapor, etc). Against Goblins it's harder to remove, but it still doesn't stop early Lackys and Instigators.
And from what I've seen:
Deed > Explosives?
Yes, after trying both, the only reason I'd run EE over Deed is if my meta was flooded with Countertop. And even then... it'd still be a tough call. I would run 4 Deeds between the 75.
Also, I feel like Krosan Grip is a wasted slot in this deck. With all the permanent destruction from Deeds and Vindicate, I think you can find better things for your board.
The reason I don't use Dueling Grounds is because it feels like catchup. I'd rather be in pretty good control of the early game rather than wait until turn 2 or 3 to throw down a DG and hope they can't bounce it (Echoing Truth, Hibernation, Chain of Vapor, etc). Against Goblins it's harder to remove, but it still doesn't stop early Lackys and Instigators.
Yes, after trying both, the only reason I'd run EE over Deed is if my meta was flooded with Countertop. And even then... it'd still be a tough call. I would run 4 Deeds between the 75.
Also, I feel like Krosan Grip is a wasted slot in this deck. With all the permanent destruction from Deeds and Vindicate, I think you can find better things for your board.
What would you recommend?
I was considering another Deeds and EE.
choke or krosan grip. It would be nice to have an easier way to deal with control.
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P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
Anything with Blue has to deal with Cold-Eyed Selkie. If you have any extra slots, I'd recommend 2 Cold-Eyed Selkie and more Paths is always nice for aggro.
Choke is a really good card (it hits Merfolk hard), but I think Selkies have wider applications against Blue decks. There are a lot of Blue decks (Countertop being one) that aren't hurt much at all by Choke.
Choke is a really good card (it hits Merfolk hard), but I think Selkies have wider applications against Blue decks. There are a lot of Blue decks (Countertop being one) that aren't hurt much at all by Choke.
It really doesn't hit merfolk that hard, eight of thier lands aren't islands and they run either vial. It is pretty good against blue control decks. When I played eva green back in the day I would throw cards into counters so I could land a choke against decks like supreme blue or landstill. But it is best when combined with some sort of land destruction.
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I can see Selkie being ok against Merfolk, but it seems that with counterbalance they will be able to deal with it just the same and drawing extra cards won't matter when they can counter everything.
i don't like selkie if you don't use equipment or exalted. I think choke is rather strong against most decks with blue.
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P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
Against Goblins you must answer a first turn Lacky. Sometimes you need to answer more than one or even Instigators. Early spot removal is key. E Plague is great here once you get to 3 mana, but by then they could have out lords and then you'll need the spot removal for E Plague to work anyways. Better to shoot their dudes as they come out and give yourself enough cushion to drop a Deed mid-to-late game and seal the deal.
Diabolic Edict is another card I don't like, but I don't have time to go into that right now. It didn't seem like you have NO/Prog in your meta anyways. Run a single Karakas MD and that will be your secret tech in case anyone tries to sneak an Iona or Emrakul in against you. This deck should be able to eat up any non-combo meta.
I've seen a lot of that in this thread.
It seems like a solid pick, especially since this deck runs a lot less creatures then: Gobbos, Merfolk, Dredge.
Also here is the list I am piloting, any opinions would be great, this is my first time building this deck, it's based off of observation & data from this thread.
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gerard's Verdict
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Dueling Ground
3 Extirpate
3 Duress
2 Path to Exile
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
dueling grounds can be bounced/destroyed on the turn that your opponent has enough creatures to overrun you ftw. it's a risky card to rely on against heavy aggro.
Goblins usually runs black before green. Plague is alright against gobos. It really only kills 8 creatures and tokens. as they rarely use gempalm incinerator as beatdown. It's good against dredge if you can make it taht far. Also with the new gobling king (haste and +1/+1) it is not that amazing.
Any thoughts?
it looks decent, not very different of the traditional dark horizons decks...
It should do fine, but there is one personal thing i would change... engineered explosives < deed... I think changing ee into deed wont be a messy change to your deck... but even if you dont, i do believe your deck is solid....
and i dont believe karakas isnt needed anymore, as survival is banned, you wont see any iona builds anymore... and there arent much other legends you might wanna bounce...
Thank you for Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome sig.
Legacy:
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Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
I personally don't like horizon canopy in the rock. I think i would much rather have bojuka bog. It is nice g1 because it stops random rogue tech tricks. EE+ ruins, anything with loam, opposing knights etc.
EDIT: karakas isn't bad. It stops stupid sillyness from things like aoen bridge, ant( with sideboarded doomsday), reanimator( if anyone even plays that anymore) They could be a secret tech if you added doran. :):)!!!!
Dueling Grounds will hold back a tide of creatures, but even then that leaves a lot of turns for you to off one each swing of your knight unless you clean them up, thus once again I'd advocate for the use of a 1-of Enlightened Tutor in place of the 4th copy. I actually run my E.Tutor main in place of my 3rd Top since my meta is mostly aggro as well. If I need a Top, I can find one of the other two, I never get stuck with multiples that need shuffling away, it functions as having a mainboarded search for Deed/EE, and having such makes sideboarding easier as I found myself bringing it in in most of my matches to be able to fetch up my spare Deed/EE`s or Plagues from the side quicker.
While mostly cute and a bit of a pet card, there are some other applications for it, especially if you swing towards a critter build with Tidehollow Scullers in place of Verdicts/Hymns. Two bad uses for it are E.Tutor->Mox to guarantee survival of a Bob trigger or E.Tutor->Shuffle effect just to get to see some new stuff with Top when one is that low on options or really needs a StP.
Anyways, just my two cents. If it's worth bringing in 4 Dueling Grounds and 1 Deed to hold back a tide, it's more worth it to be bringing in 3 Dueling Grounds, 1 E.Tutor, and 1 Deed to increase your ability to wipe the table clean once you've stabilized behind the Grounds. For MU where the Grounds would do nothing (involving Dreadnought per say), the E.Tutor is still a worthwhile card to bring in while the 4 Grounds you'd have sitting in your sideboard otherwise would be doing nothing
On the main decked wipes, I personally am enjoying my E-Tutor->EE and Deed. EE is easier to sneak down around a Counterbalance, and can hit Jace as well if he's favored in your metagame. Dropping and activating EE to clear of Zoo's 1 or 2 drops is always a mana cheaper to do as well if you're needing to pop it quick. Hitting 2 before GB1 against dredge is a lot easier as well. Only one copy of EE is needed though, Deed just wrecks too delightfully otherwise.
~ Rith
BWG Dark Horizons
UWB Esper Stoneblade
GUB Lands
BGB (Pact) Spanish Inquisition
EDH:
BGW Karador, Spirit Warmage
btw, you are all losing the game.
-Renegade498
Have/Want list http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=5576713#post5576713
@ Rith: I definitely like the idea of Enlightened Tutor a lot more, it digs for other useful cards.
And from what I've seen:
Deed > Explosives?
Yes, after trying both, the only reason I'd run EE over Deed is if my meta was flooded with Countertop. And even then... it'd still be a tough call. I would run 4 Deeds between the 75.
Also, I feel like Krosan Grip is a wasted slot in this deck. With all the permanent destruction from Deeds and Vindicate, I think you can find better things for your board.
What would you recommend?
I was considering another Deeds and EE.
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gerard's Verdict
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Dueling Ground
3 Extirpate
3 Duress
2 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
What would you recommend in those last 3 slots?
How does that sound to everyone?
Tutor + Choke = cute.
i run chokes SB in my deck. its such a good card. ive really been considering vexing shusher SB
It really doesn't hit merfolk that hard, eight of thier lands aren't islands and they run either vial. It is pretty good against blue control decks. When I played eva green back in the day I would throw cards into counters so I could land a choke against decks like supreme blue or landstill. But it is best when combined with some sort of land destruction.
Legacy:
UWRStoneblade
UWGBant Stoneblade
UWBEsper Stoneblade
BUGBUG
BUGTeam America
BUGDark Tempo Thresh
RUGTempo Thresh
BGWJunk
BGWThe Truffle Shuffle
WBDeadGuy Ale
GWMaverick
GWRPunishing Maverick
BGNic Fit
URSneak and Show
UBRWGThe Epic Storm
UBRWGDoomsday
UBReanimator
USolidarity
RGBelcher
UBWGRDredge
UWGBCephalid Breakfast
RBurn
Standard:
UWUB Control
RGRed Deck Wins
I personally like the Thoughtseize Verdict.
ALTHOUGH, the other packages give you more opening plays.