FAQs
Q: A deck built around Lands you say?! How does that work?!
A: Well that is an excellent question my friend! Lands is a control deck that controls your opponent's lands rather than your opponent's board (though it does it's fair share of that too). By using Exploration and Manabond to put lands into play faster we can expand our manabase while crippling our opponents with Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and Ghost Quarter.
Q: But wait! You only have so many land denial cards! How do you keep stifling your opponent's mana?
A: Well we have this tricky little card called Life from the Loam that allows us to recycle our Wastelands and Ghost Quarter so we can destroy lands every turn.
Q: Okay okay, but what happens when your opponent gets some fast creatures into play like Goblin Lackey or Tarmogoyf? Do you just lose?
A: You would think so but Wizards, the kind company they are, provided us with great anti-creature tools. With lands like Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, and Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale. We can keep the creatures at bay with Tabernacle making sure they can't play too many creatures, Maze of Ith to stop the creatures they do have and Glacial Chasm to stop us from taking any damage.
Q: Alright, so once you have denied your opponent's mana and have cleared their board of all their threats how do you win?
A: Oh yea, winning. Well we don't win. In fact most of our games involve that we win involve our opponents simply scooping their cards. However, most of the list have at least one kill condition. First we have Mishra's Factory aka the manland of choice and our primary kill condition. Some list have Mindslaver and Worm Harvest as an additional, faster kill condition but they aren't necessary. If worst comes to worst we can always just deck our opponent by using Academy Ruins to return Engineered Explosives to the top of our deck every turn, but this condition hardly ever happens. Some experimental list have tried Valakut as a kill condition as well, I would not suggest it as it requires way too many cards to work. It's cute, but not effective.
Q: Would you consider this deck a good deck for the beginners?
A: I would not. Piloting this deck requires a vast knowledge of the Legacy metagame and you need to know how each different deck plays in order to win. While I don't want to deter anyone from playing lands it is very hard to play are requires time and testing to learn the tips and tricks. It's not impossible though, I really wanted to play this at GP C-Bus and while I didn't make Day 2 I did go positive going 5-2-1 with only a couple days of testing. That said, I had a very hard time in some of my matchups and wished I had playtested more.
For more information on Lands, here is a quick overview of the deck by Eli Kassis at Grand Prix Columbus.
As you can see the decks have a few differences. The biggest IMO is Eli's decision to only run 36 lands. I think 37 is the correct number and 36 is too low.
Card Choices:
Exploration: The first accelerate we have. Being able to multiple lands into play is crucial and this guy helps us do that. A stapled 4-of.
Manabond: The second accelerate we have. It's the best game 1 but get's a little worse game 2 because if we just dump our hand and put lands into play we can get blown out by a Crypt or Relic or something of that nature. I play 4 but some play 3, if you play 3 though I suggest at least 6 Intuition/Gamble.
Life from the Loam: The engine. A staple. 4-of. No question. It not only gives us the gas with the Dredge mechanic but gives us the effect with the actual effect itself. Recycles Ghost Quarter, Fetches, Factories, Glacial Chasm, and most importantly, Wasteland.
Intuition, Gamble: Fantastic cards that tutor up the pieces we need. Gamble is cheaper but has the "gamble" (pun totally intended) to also discard what you tutor for. Luckily, that doesn't matter if you are looking for a Loam or a land if you already have Loam. Intuition is good because it can grab whatever we need and we will get it without fail (you can just tutor up 3 Manabond) or you can grab a package and make it a Gifts Ungiven by grabing Loam and 2 lands you need like Tabernacle and Maze vs aggro as an example.
Mindslaver, Worm Harvest: A kill condition. You only play 1 of these cards and you only play it as a one-of but the deck doesn't need it. Worm Harvest is the better IMO since you can just drop it early and don't need Ruins to go infinite.
Mox Diamond: A 4 of, no question about it. It gives us a jumpstart in the early game and the cost of the effect is negligible since we will just Loam back what we discard.
Tormod's Crypt, Bojoku Bog: Maindeck graveyard hate. It's not necessary but highly recommended since we can tutor for it so well and many decks rely on the graveyard to fuel their decks. I would suggest 1 in the main and at least 2 in the board. (Note: I would only run 1 Bog at the most.)
Engineered Explosives: A fine tutorable card that allows us to destroy any non-creature threat that we need to deal with. Recurable with Academy Ruins it gives us a universal out to anything we need to kill. 1 in the main and 1 in the board will suffice.
Ensnaring Bridge: A good card vs aggro. I don't think it's needed but some people like it. 0-1 of these.
Zuran Orb: It's a very strong card that allows us to go infinite with Glacial Chasm and gives us another tool vs aggro and a tool vs the ever dreaded Price of Progress. You only need 1 but I could see 1 in the main and 1 in the board.
Maze of Ith: Our aggro hoser. Keeps dudes from hitting our face all day. I know some people have cut it down to 3 but with the rise in Survival and other aggro strategies I am going to run 4.
Rishadan Port: 1/2 of our mana denial package. Allows us to keep basics tapped down while Wasteland deals with those pesky duals. A 4-of no matter what.
Wasteland: The other half of our package. Almost every deck in Legacy runs non-basic lands and this card deals with them all. Also allows us to do silly things like kill our own animated Mishra's Factories to remove Bridge from Belows from the Dredge player's grave. Staple. 4-of.
Mishra's Factory: Our primary win-condition. Helps us chump block and is just an all around good card. 4-of.
Tropical Island, Taiga, Bayou, Savannah: Our color fixers, they help us play with stuff like Gamble, Dark Confidant, and Intuition. Run what you need to play what you want to play with. I think 3 Tropical is necessary though for Tolaria West.
Tranquil Thicket: Our cycle land/draw engine. It allows us to dig for actual spells and it allows us to save Loam from certain death in response to a Crypt. I like 3 of these but some run 2.
Misty Rainforest, Verdant Catacombs, Windswepth Heath, Wooded Foothills: Our fetches for our duals. Run some combination of 4.
Forest: That's right, a basic. It's great vs the mirror or other decks that abuse Wasteland. It gives us the ability to keep using Loam. You only need 1 but you need it.
Ghost Quarter: This is our out to basics. With many decks not running a lot of basics it can also act as a strip mine. This allows us to actually run out every land in our opponent's deck. You only need 1 but I could see 2 being ran.
Academy Ruins: Allows us to not deck out and gives us the ability to recur our Explosives and Crypts. You only need 1 of these.
Glacial Chasm: Like Tabernacle, this card gives us a great game against aggro and burn decks. It gives us a great card vs everything aggro and just straight up beats some decks like Dredge. Again, you only need 1 of these.
The Tabernacle and Pendrall Vale: One of our best legacy hosers we have. It keeps our opponent from swarming the board with guys to overrun our Maze of Iths. It gives us a great game vs Dredge and Goblins. Lucky for you guys, you only need 1 of this Legends rare.
Tolaria West: Our land that tutors for EVERYTHING we want to tutor for. Tabernacle? Check. Tormod's Crypt? Check. Zuran Orb? Check. AND it taps for blue. Play 2-4, 3 is optimal.
Riftstone Portal: It's a good card. I personally don't like it but thats because I don't play Mindslaver or Worm Harvest. It's nice if you play those cards though.
Karakas: A great card to stop stuff like Emrakul. However, with those decks fallen to the wayside this card probably deserves a sideboard slot only.
Barbarian Ring: A nice card if you want a burn spell but it's not as good as some of these other choices. Though it still deserves some consideration.
Cephalid Coliseum: Like Barbarian Ring it deserves some consideration but the deck doesn't need it.
Dark Confidant: I think is our best card against our weakest matchups, storm. It is also very good against the slow control decks like Enchantress and Countertop. I would suggest it as a 4-of.
Krosan Grip, Ray of Revelation, Ancient Grudge: I like all of these cards but I favor Grip since it can actually get rid of Leyline and it gets rid of Aether Vial and Crypt better than the other.
Smokestacks: This a poor card. Its not good against any of our matchups except the slow ones where Confidant is better. I wouldn't play any.
Matchups:
ANT/TEPS: Very unfavorable. Everything we do doesn't phase them. We have no clock and our mana denial plan is ineffective as they do everything at instant speed anyways and they have artifact mana outlets like Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Petal. Postboard is still shady since all we can do is play Confidant for pressure and try to dig for Chalice and attempt to lock them out. Still it's close to an autoloss for us. Zuran Orb is somewhat decent since it does help us survive and can sometimes lead to them using Ad Naseum and killing themselves.
Belcher: Basically the same as ANT/TEPS except our Chalices are a little it better since they don't have access to cards like Echoing Truth and Chain of Plasma. Still, game 1 is basically an autoloss and Zuran Orb is still a dice roll as we hope we can survive.
Goblins: Even to Favorable. Like all aggro decks Goblins can simply be shut out by our aggro denial cards. They can have really potent starts though and they have ways to deal with our Maze of Ith. Not to mention they have access to Price of Progress. As they add more colors our game plan gets much much better. Zuran Orb is really good here too.
Merfolk: Favorable. An aggro deck with a slow clock. I am all about this matchup. Vial is the only thing that can cause problems but once you land a Tabernacle and a Maze it's good game. Postboard they bring in the usual hate and sometimes Back to Basics. This card is tricky so make sure you watch out. Fetching your basic Forest here is key because they also play with Wastelands and can cut you off green if you are reckless.
Dredge: Favorable. I have heard a lot of arguments about this matchup and I don't know how people don't find it favorable. Between Tabernacle, Bojoku Bog/Tormod's Crypt, and Glacial Chasm we can't lose. In fact they cannot beat us with Chasm out (and Tabernacle stops them cold unless they go all Flamekin Zealot on us. Postboard only gets better as we have more Crypts to stop them.
Zoo: Even to Favorable. Like Goblins their fast starts can sometimes overpower us. However if you can land your anti-aggro cards you can pull it out easy. They don't play Wasteland either so our Maze's are just that much more effective.
Horizons: Favorable. Like Fish they aren't super aggressive so we have time to set up. Also, they don't have a ton of threats so we can stall them for a while with Maze. They have their own Wastelands so watch out. Other than that they are generally a easy matchups.
Threshold: Favorable. Like Horizons they aren't super aggressive. However, they do have Mongoose and that can cause problems for our Mazes. However, we can normally Wasteland them into oblivion and Tabernacle can just kill them.
Countertop/Landstill: Even. Our mana denial can sometimes just kill them and sometimes they simply flood on land and we can't do much. Also, they don't run a very aggro game plan so many of our lands are just turned off. Most of them just play one kill condition which can range from Tarmogoyf, to ThopterSword, to Jace, to Dreadnought. Whatever it is we have answers. Postboard we have Confidant to provide pressure and they board out most of their removal so he can sometimes just run away with the game. Tight play will normally lead to victory.
Elves!: Unfavorable to Favorable depending on the list. This deck has recently seen a spike in play and will continue to do so post-worlds. The problem with Elves is that even if we land screw them(which is hard since they are mono-green) they still have mana in their Elves. If they are simply aggro Glacial Chasm is just game but if they are going with the combo plan they can bounce it with Primal Command. Engineered Explosives is really good here though as is Chalice of the Void. Really it all depends on their 75 and how experienced you are with the match up.
This is the new Primer for the 43 Land deck. I simply made a new one because the old one is very out of date and I have no idea where the creator of the old thread is. The Mods will move the other one to the Archives soon.
This is true, assuming people do not believe you personally. Koopa's thread is the refreshed Lands.dec (43 lands) thread. He asked and was given permission.
-Warden
Doesn't price of progress simply kill you and is what you should be fearing? I don't think price of progress has any place in this deck, unless you can repeatedly get zuran orb out, and even then, you have to sac most of your lands or you kill yourself, don't see the point in it even being a suggestion.
I'll put this bluntly. If a really cool, unique guy went up to a normal girl, and is ugly, he's weird. if he goes up and is hot, then he's cool and unique.
Standard
It's like watching grass grow, except it's ridculously expensive.
Doesn't price of progress simply kill you and is what you should be fearing? I don't think price of progress has any place in this deck, unless you can repeatedly get zuran orb out, and even then, you have to sac most of your lands or you kill yourself, don't see the point in it even being a suggestion.
Perhaps you should reread the thread.
I was saying that Zuran Orb is a strong card VS Price of Progress and that Zuran Orb should be a 1-2 of.
Zuran orb IMO should almost always be a 1 of in the MD and if not there then at least 2 in the board. It helps against combo (seriously), and PoP is mitigated by it a lot. Zuran orb is essentially your only card to combat price of progress. And don't run price of progress in your SB. Please. This should be self explanatory if it isn't, go play another less complicated deck.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
@ Tendrils:
I had that same concern myself until I actually had one played against me. I had Zuran Orb early, since he was playing burn, and it went something like,
I had 7 non-basics, which would have done 14 damage.
For each land I sacrificed, two damage was negated (since that was one less land to count for price) and two life was gained. I effectively made price useless by sacrificing 3 lands.
So no, Price of Progress isn't a big deal. We also have Glacial Chasm if things get really out of hand against burn.
Koopa, big thanks for putting this up. I played the deck briefly a while back by borrowing a bunch of cards from friends and really enjoyed it, and I'm thinking about biting the expensive bullet and putting it together to learn to play it better.
the new w leyline is really good against ant/tes (it solves nothing but gives you time)
i'm playing crop rotation and seemps pretty efective too, crop --> chasm is a strong move, and it search and put into play any hate card.
I was pleased with Leyline of Sanctity. I made a burn player cuss quite loudly at the beginning of game two, and then cuss again when we read Keldon Marauders and found that the trigger is not a "may."
I had been considering Crop Rotation, too. Being faster than Intuition (in terms of mana cost and being able to play it turn 1, if need be) seems like it'd be valuable from time to time. What did you take out for it, and how many do you run?
Koopa, big thanks for putting this up. I played the deck briefly a while back by borrowing a bunch of cards from friends and really enjoyed it, and I'm thinking about biting the expensive bullet and putting it together to learn to play it better.
I was pleased with Leyline of Sanctity. I made a burn player cuss quite loudly at the beginning of game two, and then cuss again when we read Keldon Marauders and found that the trigger is not a "may."
I had been considering Crop Rotation, too. Being faster than Intuition (in terms of mana cost and being able to play it turn 1, if need be) seems like it'd be valuable from time to time. What did you take out for it, and how many do you run?
I played the Leyline at GP C-Bus but it really didn't do anything for me. ANT/TEPS was able just to go and tutor with Ad Naseum until they hit what they need and they bounce with Echoing Truth. I like Chalice more because it actually stops them since you can set it to 2 and stop their Infernal Tutors, Cabal Rituals, and Echoing Truths.
Crop Rotation is nice but Intuiton is just more consistent. If anything I would just play Gamble over Crop Rotation since with Loam we can just get it back if we have to discard it.
Crop Rotation is nice but Intuiton is just more consistent. If anything I would just play Gamble over Crop Rotation since with Loam we can just get it back if we have to discard it.
No doubt that Gamble is a great card, and I would be hard pressed to consider Crop Rotation in place of any Intuition slots because, in this deck, Intuition is just so good. It does enable some clever tricks, though, like rendering his Wastelands useless, or turning a Tropical Island into a Maze of Ith to keep from dying that turn. The big benefits to it over Gamble, in my mind, are that it's instant speed, and that it produces an immediate result (as opposed to Gamble where you'd cast it during your turn, and if you lost the "gamble" and pitched the land you found, you might have to jump through some Loam hoops to remedy the situation). Getting it countered sorta sucks, though.
Is Cruible of Worlds any good in this deck or is it too slow?
I always liked having a single one in the board, because Life from the Loam is a pretty hardcore Extirpate target. Pretty much anything else that would remove Loam -- Faerie Macabre, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus -- can be responded to by cycling a Tranquil Thicket to dredge it back, but split second kinda puts a damper on that plan.
I don't like chalice on 2 against storm unless you have chalices on 1 and 0 as well; the reason being it shuts your loam off. And the opponent can preemtively wish for meltdown or pulverize or shattering spree before you set it for 2, making it useless. And if they run rebuild, your chalices will get bounced EoT. But setting it on 2 but not on one means it can get chain of vapored. And there's always k grip and wipe away. But yeah usually the MU is very in the opponent's favor, even if you dedicate 15 SB slots to the MU with 4 mindbreak trap, 4 leyline of sanctity, 3 zuran orb, and 4 chalice of the void. The 3 zuran orb is assuming you run 1 MD.
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I don't like chalice on 2 against storm unless you have chalices on 1 and 0 as well; the reason being it shuts your loam off. And the opponent can preemtively wish for meltdown or pulverize or shattering spree before you set it for 2, making it useless. And if they run rebuild, your chalices will get bounced EoT. But setting it on 2 but not on one means it can get chain of vapored. And there's always k grip and wipe away. But yeah usually the MU is very in the opponent's favor, even if you dedicate 15 SB slots to the MU with 4 mindbreak trap, 4 leyline of sanctity, 3 zuran orb, and 4 chalice of the void. The 3 zuran orb is assuming you run 1 MD.
I agree completely, and with a deck that's as dedicated to a specific strategy as Lands, you gotta pick your battles. Do what we can against storm combo decks, hope for a little luck and good pairings, and focus harder on improving the matchups that can become far more favorable after boarding.
My plan has typically been to, first, sob uncontrollably for 10-15 seconds, and then either Krosan Grip or Nature's Claim it. Generally, you want to have your Forest out pretty early anyway, but especially against a deck that can play either Blood Moon or Wasteland.
It assumes that players don't play Blood Moon because no good deck runs Blood Moon. BUT, if a player does run Blood Moon we get our basic forest and Grip it.
As a Lands player, I would say that Magus of the Moon is the most difficult card to deal with. Blood Moon is harsh, but you can Grip or Ray of Revelation it. It gets scary when the random goblin player brings in either Blood Moon or Magus, cause you don't really know who is playing it, so you don't always know how to sideboard. If you want to play this deck, learning how to sideboard is extremely important for success.
It assumes that players don't play Blood Moon because no good deck runs Blood Moon. BUT, if a player does run Blood Moon we get our basic forest and Grip it.
Last time I checked Red Stompy used to be a pretty decent Meta deck, and Goblins is still very good.
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Legacy - Cat Sligh:symr::symg::symw:
Modern - Green & Taxes:symw::symg:
Standard - Illusions:symu::symb:
As a Lands player, I would say that Magus of the Moon is the most difficult card to deal with. Blood Moon is harsh, but you can Grip or Ray of Revelation it. It gets scary when the random goblin player brings in either Blood Moon or Magus, cause you don't really know who is playing it, so you don't always know how to sideboard. If you want to play this deck, learning how to sideboard is extremely important for success.
Absolutely right, re: sideboarding.
Dealing with Magus can be tricky, to be sure. I believe that's why Jason Schousboe -- finished 7th at a Star City Games Legacy Open on 2010-08-29; here's his decklist -- ran an Aeolipile in his board. Can kill Magus (one of them, at least, unless you can somehow recur it with your Mountain-ified Academy Ruins), and is recurrable as a win condition.
Edit: Also, don't forget that with a basic Forest, a non-basic land that has become a Mountain, and a Mox Diamond, it's possible to put EE at 3. Kills Blood effects dead.
Red Stompy is hardly a deck. I haven't seen it put up results but if worst comes to worst you do have Engineered Explosives and if you have to tune your deck to your meta then there are plenty of cards to deal with them.
Dealing with Magus can be tricky, to be sure. I believe that's why Jason Schousboe -- finished 7th at a Star City Games Legacy Open on 2010-08-29; here's his decklist -- ran an Aeolipile in his board. Can kill Magus (one of them, at least, unless you can somehow recur it with your Mountain-ified Academy Ruins), and is recurrable as a win condition.
Edit: Also, don't forget that with a basic Forest, a non-basic land that has become a Mountain, and a Mox Diamond, it's possible to put EE at 3. Kills Blood effects dead.
I have been playing this deck for a while now, and I honestly didnt even know that Aeolipile even existed... Very interesting tech.
We've got Mox Diamonds too. So, go for the forest first and hope for moxes early if you expect it game one, then sideboard for it games 2 and 3 if you need. We just beat the decks that would play it otherwise right? So boarding for it isn't that big a deal.
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FAQs
Q: A deck built around Lands you say?! How does that work?!
A: Well that is an excellent question my friend! Lands is a control deck that controls your opponent's lands rather than your opponent's board (though it does it's fair share of that too). By using Exploration and Manabond to put lands into play faster we can expand our manabase while crippling our opponents with Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and Ghost Quarter.
Q: But wait! You only have so many land denial cards! How do you keep stifling your opponent's mana?
A: Well we have this tricky little card called Life from the Loam that allows us to recycle our Wastelands and Ghost Quarter so we can destroy lands every turn.
Q: Okay okay, but what happens when your opponent gets some fast creatures into play like Goblin Lackey or Tarmogoyf? Do you just lose?
A: You would think so but Wizards, the kind company they are, provided us with great anti-creature tools. With lands like Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, and Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale. We can keep the creatures at bay with Tabernacle making sure they can't play too many creatures, Maze of Ith to stop the creatures they do have and Glacial Chasm to stop us from taking any damage.
Q: Alright, so once you have denied your opponent's mana and have cleared their board of all their threats how do you win?
A: Oh yea, winning. Well we don't win. In fact most of our games involve that we win involve our opponents simply scooping their cards. However, most of the list have at least one kill condition. First we have Mishra's Factory aka the manland of choice and our primary kill condition. Some list have Mindslaver and Worm Harvest as an additional, faster kill condition but they aren't necessary. If worst comes to worst we can always just deck our opponent by using Academy Ruins to return Engineered Explosives to the top of our deck every turn, but this condition hardly ever happens. Some experimental list have tried Valakut as a kill condition as well, I would not suggest it as it requires way too many cards to work. It's cute, but not effective.
Q: Would you consider this deck a good deck for the beginners?
A: I would not. Piloting this deck requires a vast knowledge of the Legacy metagame and you need to know how each different deck plays in order to win. While I don't want to deter anyone from playing lands it is very hard to play are requires time and testing to learn the tips and tricks. It's not impossible though, I really wanted to play this at GP C-Bus and while I didn't make Day 2 I did go positive going 5-2-1 with only a couple days of testing. That said, I had a very hard time in some of my matchups and wished I had playtested more.
For more information on Lands, here is a quick overview of the deck by Eli Kassis at Grand Prix Columbus.
Here is the previous primer.
Decklists:
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Exploration
4x Intuition
4x Life from the Loam
4x Manabond
1x Mindslaver
4x Mox Diamond
1x Tormod's Crypt
Lands(37)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Bayou
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Forest
4x Maze of Ith
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Rishadan Port
1x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Tolaria West
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Smokestack
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Zuran Orb
1x Ancient Grudge
3x Extirpate
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Karakas
4x Exploration
4x Manabond
4x Intuition
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensaring Bridge
1x Zuran Orb
1x Worm Harvest
Lands(36)
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Maze of Ith
3x Tolaria West
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Tropical Island
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Academy Ruins
1x Bayou
1x Bojoku Bog
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Savannah
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
4x Dark Confidant
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Ray of Revelation
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Smokestack
As you can see the decks have a few differences. The biggest IMO is Eli's decision to only run 36 lands. I think 37 is the correct number and 36 is too low.
Card Choices:
Exploration: The first accelerate we have. Being able to multiple lands into play is crucial and this guy helps us do that. A stapled 4-of.
Manabond: The second accelerate we have. It's the best game 1 but get's a little worse game 2 because if we just dump our hand and put lands into play we can get blown out by a Crypt or Relic or something of that nature. I play 4 but some play 3, if you play 3 though I suggest at least 6 Intuition/Gamble.
Life from the Loam: The engine. A staple. 4-of. No question. It not only gives us the gas with the Dredge mechanic but gives us the effect with the actual effect itself. Recycles Ghost Quarter, Fetches, Factories, Glacial Chasm, and most importantly, Wasteland.
Intuition, Gamble: Fantastic cards that tutor up the pieces we need. Gamble is cheaper but has the "gamble" (pun totally intended) to also discard what you tutor for. Luckily, that doesn't matter if you are looking for a Loam or a land if you already have Loam. Intuition is good because it can grab whatever we need and we will get it without fail (you can just tutor up 3 Manabond) or you can grab a package and make it a Gifts Ungiven by grabing Loam and 2 lands you need like Tabernacle and Maze vs aggro as an example.
Mindslaver, Worm Harvest: A kill condition. You only play 1 of these cards and you only play it as a one-of but the deck doesn't need it. Worm Harvest is the better IMO since you can just drop it early and don't need Ruins to go infinite.
Mox Diamond: A 4 of, no question about it. It gives us a jumpstart in the early game and the cost of the effect is negligible since we will just Loam back what we discard.
Tormod's Crypt, Bojoku Bog: Maindeck graveyard hate. It's not necessary but highly recommended since we can tutor for it so well and many decks rely on the graveyard to fuel their decks. I would suggest 1 in the main and at least 2 in the board. (Note: I would only run 1 Bog at the most.)
Engineered Explosives: A fine tutorable card that allows us to destroy any non-creature threat that we need to deal with. Recurable with Academy Ruins it gives us a universal out to anything we need to kill. 1 in the main and 1 in the board will suffice.
Ensnaring Bridge: A good card vs aggro. I don't think it's needed but some people like it. 0-1 of these.
Zuran Orb: It's a very strong card that allows us to go infinite with Glacial Chasm and gives us another tool vs aggro and a tool vs the ever dreaded Price of Progress. You only need 1 but I could see 1 in the main and 1 in the board.
Maze of Ith: Our aggro hoser. Keeps dudes from hitting our face all day. I know some people have cut it down to 3 but with the rise in Survival and other aggro strategies I am going to run 4.
Rishadan Port: 1/2 of our mana denial package. Allows us to keep basics tapped down while Wasteland deals with those pesky duals. A 4-of no matter what.
Wasteland: The other half of our package. Almost every deck in Legacy runs non-basic lands and this card deals with them all. Also allows us to do silly things like kill our own animated Mishra's Factories to remove Bridge from Belows from the Dredge player's grave. Staple. 4-of.
Mishra's Factory: Our primary win-condition. Helps us chump block and is just an all around good card. 4-of.
Tropical Island, Taiga, Bayou, Savannah: Our color fixers, they help us play with stuff like Gamble, Dark Confidant, and Intuition. Run what you need to play what you want to play with. I think 3 Tropical is necessary though for Tolaria West.
Tranquil Thicket: Our cycle land/draw engine. It allows us to dig for actual spells and it allows us to save Loam from certain death in response to a Crypt. I like 3 of these but some run 2.
Misty Rainforest, Verdant Catacombs, Windswepth Heath, Wooded Foothills: Our fetches for our duals. Run some combination of 4.
Forest: That's right, a basic. It's great vs the mirror or other decks that abuse Wasteland. It gives us the ability to keep using Loam. You only need 1 but you need it.
Ghost Quarter: This is our out to basics. With many decks not running a lot of basics it can also act as a strip mine. This allows us to actually run out every land in our opponent's deck. You only need 1 but I could see 2 being ran.
Academy Ruins: Allows us to not deck out and gives us the ability to recur our Explosives and Crypts. You only need 1 of these.
Glacial Chasm: Like Tabernacle, this card gives us a great game against aggro and burn decks. It gives us a great card vs everything aggro and just straight up beats some decks like Dredge. Again, you only need 1 of these.
The Tabernacle and Pendrall Vale: One of our best legacy hosers we have. It keeps our opponent from swarming the board with guys to overrun our Maze of Iths. It gives us a great game vs Dredge and Goblins. Lucky for you guys, you only need 1 of this Legends rare.
Tolaria West: Our land that tutors for EVERYTHING we want to tutor for. Tabernacle? Check. Tormod's Crypt? Check. Zuran Orb? Check. AND it taps for blue. Play 2-4, 3 is optimal.
Riftstone Portal: It's a good card. I personally don't like it but thats because I don't play Mindslaver or Worm Harvest. It's nice if you play those cards though.
Karakas: A great card to stop stuff like Emrakul. However, with those decks fallen to the wayside this card probably deserves a sideboard slot only.
Barbarian Ring: A nice card if you want a burn spell but it's not as good as some of these other choices. Though it still deserves some consideration.
Cephalid Coliseum: Like Barbarian Ring it deserves some consideration but the deck doesn't need it.
Dark Confidant: I think is our best card against our weakest matchups, storm. It is also very good against the slow control decks like Enchantress and Countertop. I would suggest it as a 4-of.
Krosan Grip, Ray of Revelation, Ancient Grudge: I like all of these cards but I favor Grip since it can actually get rid of Leyline and it gets rid of Aether Vial and Crypt better than the other.
Smokestacks: This a poor card. Its not good against any of our matchups except the slow ones where Confidant is better. I wouldn't play any.
Matchups:
ANT/TEPS: Very unfavorable. Everything we do doesn't phase them. We have no clock and our mana denial plan is ineffective as they do everything at instant speed anyways and they have artifact mana outlets like Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Petal. Postboard is still shady since all we can do is play Confidant for pressure and try to dig for Chalice and attempt to lock them out. Still it's close to an autoloss for us. Zuran Orb is somewhat decent since it does help us survive and can sometimes lead to them using Ad Naseum and killing themselves.
Belcher: Basically the same as ANT/TEPS except our Chalices are a little it better since they don't have access to cards like Echoing Truth and Chain of Plasma. Still, game 1 is basically an autoloss and Zuran Orb is still a dice roll as we hope we can survive.
Goblins: Even to Favorable. Like all aggro decks Goblins can simply be shut out by our aggro denial cards. They can have really potent starts though and they have ways to deal with our Maze of Ith. Not to mention they have access to Price of Progress. As they add more colors our game plan gets much much better. Zuran Orb is really good here too.
Merfolk: Favorable. An aggro deck with a slow clock. I am all about this matchup. Vial is the only thing that can cause problems but once you land a Tabernacle and a Maze it's good game. Postboard they bring in the usual hate and sometimes Back to Basics. This card is tricky so make sure you watch out. Fetching your basic Forest here is key because they also play with Wastelands and can cut you off green if you are reckless.
Dredge: Favorable. I have heard a lot of arguments about this matchup and I don't know how people don't find it favorable. Between Tabernacle, Bojoku Bog/Tormod's Crypt, and Glacial Chasm we can't lose. In fact they cannot beat us with Chasm out (and Tabernacle stops them cold unless they go all Flamekin Zealot on us. Postboard only gets better as we have more Crypts to stop them.
Zoo: Even to Favorable. Like Goblins their fast starts can sometimes overpower us. However if you can land your anti-aggro cards you can pull it out easy. They don't play Wasteland either so our Maze's are just that much more effective.
Horizons: Favorable. Like Fish they aren't super aggressive so we have time to set up. Also, they don't have a ton of threats so we can stall them for a while with Maze. They have their own Wastelands so watch out. Other than that they are generally a easy matchups.
Threshold: Favorable. Like Horizons they aren't super aggressive. However, they do have Mongoose and that can cause problems for our Mazes. However, we can normally Wasteland them into oblivion and Tabernacle can just kill them.
Countertop/Landstill: Even. Our mana denial can sometimes just kill them and sometimes they simply flood on land and we can't do much. Also, they don't run a very aggro game plan so many of our lands are just turned off. Most of them just play one kill condition which can range from Tarmogoyf, to ThopterSword, to Jace, to Dreadnought. Whatever it is we have answers. Postboard we have Confidant to provide pressure and they board out most of their removal so he can sometimes just run away with the game. Tight play will normally lead to victory.
Elves!: Unfavorable to Favorable depending on the list. This deck has recently seen a spike in play and will continue to do so post-worlds. The problem with Elves is that even if we land screw them(which is hard since they are mono-green) they still have mana in their Elves. If they are simply aggro Glacial Chasm is just game but if they are going with the combo plan they can bounce it with Primal Command. Engineered Explosives is really good here though as is Chalice of the Void. Really it all depends on their 75 and how experienced you are with the match up.
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This is true, assuming people do not believe you personally. Koopa's thread is the refreshed Lands.dec (43 lands) thread. He asked and was given permission.
-Warden
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Perhaps you should reread the thread.
I was saying that Zuran Orb is a strong card VS Price of Progress and that Zuran Orb should be a 1-2 of.
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I had that same concern myself until I actually had one played against me. I had Zuran Orb early, since he was playing burn, and it went something like,
I had 7 non-basics, which would have done 14 damage.
For each land I sacrificed, two damage was negated (since that was one less land to count for price) and two life was gained. I effectively made price useless by sacrificing 3 lands.
So no, Price of Progress isn't a big deal. We also have Glacial Chasm if things get really out of hand against burn.
I am John Galt.
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I was pleased with Leyline of Sanctity. I made a burn player cuss quite loudly at the beginning of game two, and then cuss again when we read Keldon Marauders and found that the trigger is not a "may."
I had been considering Crop Rotation, too. Being faster than Intuition (in terms of mana cost and being able to play it turn 1, if need be) seems like it'd be valuable from time to time. What did you take out for it, and how many do you run?
I played the Leyline at GP C-Bus but it really didn't do anything for me. ANT/TEPS was able just to go and tutor with Ad Naseum until they hit what they need and they bounce with Echoing Truth. I like Chalice more because it actually stops them since you can set it to 2 and stop their Infernal Tutors, Cabal Rituals, and Echoing Truths.
Crop Rotation is nice but Intuiton is just more consistent. If anything I would just play Gamble over Crop Rotation since with Loam we can just get it back if we have to discard it.
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No doubt that Gamble is a great card, and I would be hard pressed to consider Crop Rotation in place of any Intuition slots because, in this deck, Intuition is just so good. It does enable some clever tricks, though, like rendering his Wastelands useless, or turning a Tropical Island into a Maze of Ith to keep from dying that turn. The big benefits to it over Gamble, in my mind, are that it's instant speed, and that it produces an immediate result (as opposed to Gamble where you'd cast it during your turn, and if you lost the "gamble" and pitched the land you found, you might have to jump through some Loam hoops to remedy the situation). Getting it countered sorta sucks, though.
I always liked having a single one in the board, because Life from the Loam is a pretty hardcore Extirpate target. Pretty much anything else that would remove Loam -- Faerie Macabre, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus -- can be responded to by cycling a Tranquil Thicket to dredge it back, but split second kinda puts a damper on that plan.
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I agree completely, and with a deck that's as dedicated to a specific strategy as Lands, you gotta pick your battles. Do what we can against storm combo decks, hope for a little luck and good pairings, and focus harder on improving the matchups that can become far more favorable after boarding.
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My plan has typically been to, first, sob uncontrollably for 10-15 seconds, and then either Krosan Grip or Nature's Claim it. Generally, you want to have your Forest out pretty early anyway, but especially against a deck that can play either Blood Moon or Wasteland.
It assumes that players don't play Blood Moon because no good deck runs Blood Moon. BUT, if a player does run Blood Moon we get our basic forest and Grip it.
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Last time I checked Red Stompy used to be a pretty decent Meta deck, and Goblins is still very good.
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Absolutely right, re: sideboarding.
Dealing with Magus can be tricky, to be sure. I believe that's why Jason Schousboe -- finished 7th at a Star City Games Legacy Open on 2010-08-29; here's his decklist -- ran an Aeolipile in his board. Can kill Magus (one of them, at least, unless you can somehow recur it with your Mountain-ified Academy Ruins), and is recurrable as a win condition.
Edit: Also, don't forget that with a basic Forest, a non-basic land that has become a Mountain, and a Mox Diamond, it's possible to put EE at 3. Kills Blood effects dead.
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I have been playing this deck for a while now, and I honestly didnt even know that Aeolipile even existed... Very interesting tech.
I am John Galt.