We've got Mox Diamonds too. So, go for the forest first and hope for moxes early if you expect it game one, then sideboard for it games 2 and 3 if you need. We just beat the decks that would play it otherwise right? So boarding for it isn't that big a deal.
There's also firebolt or flame jab for magus of the moon. And moon effects aren't the strongest when we run 4 mox diamonds. I talked to Schousboe myself about this deck and aeolipile is the techiest card ever...I love it! It's like old school moonglove extract. Moon effects are hardly a problem for this deck, and Schousboe runs 4 intuition to fetch answers as well as the pair of gambles to answer moon effects. EE also helps a lot like others said either set it preemptively to 3 before they cast moon or have mox(en) + a basic land to answer it. Because without moon those MUs will be a cakewalk; dragon stompy lacks rishadan port and wasteland to deal with maze of ith on their fatty however goblins is a different story. Goblins is actually a hard MU or at least Schousboe thinks so it's pretty tricky.
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I think Goblins in winnable if you are experienced with the deck. Sure, sometimes they just kill you as they go:
Turn 1: Mountain, Lackey.
Turn 2: Wasteland your Maze of Ith, Swing with Lackey, Cheat in "insert threatening goblin here".
I mean it's still possible to win here but it requires the right cards.
I mean it's still possible to win here but it requires the right cards.
Yeah, this is true for all the hyper-aggressive decks, of which Goblins is the top, in my opinion. Against a slower deck, you'll have more time to fix bad plays or overcome some minor bad luck. Goblins in particular also attacks its opponent's mana base more than other decks -- is there another mainstream deck, besides Goblins and Lands, that runs 4 Rishadan Port?
Must say, I love this deck. Quick question. With pile being an option, why not just run Cursed Scroll? I mean, with Manabonds and Explorations, you can probably just dump your hand quickly enough to get it online and it serves as an extra win condition.
Must say, I love this deck. Quick question. With pile being an option, why not just run Cursed Scroll? I mean, with Manabonds and Explorations, you can probably just dump your hand quickly enough to get it online and it serves as an extra win condition.
Am I missing something here?
Mishra's Factory, once we have control of the board, does the same amount of damage and already has a place in the deck as one of the lands.
That's... actually pretty good. Scroll costs 1 more to cast and activate immediately, but having enough mana to do what we want isn't typically the problem, especially if your Mazes and Tabernacle have suddenly become mana-producing Mountains. It also requires fewer hoops involving Academy Ruins to keep applying pressure to the opponent's face, allowing us to keep Loaming (and, ideally, simply name "Life from the Loam" every time you use the Scroll).
Good call, CoPRed (and Sigma-X who pointed out what he was talking about).
I came across a tournament report from a couple months back, by a Lands player on The Source, and I found his decklist intriguing enough to begin messing with. Here's what I've arrived at with some very initial testing:
(The sideboard is still exactly as mchainmail had it in his Source post; I haven't yet done any work with it.)
I've absolutely adored Gargoyle Castle as a win condition, because even with an Ensnaring Bridge on the table, I can Loam back exactly 3 lands, attack with some Gargoyle tokens I've built up by recurring the Castle, and then dump my hand before passing the turn. I've also fallen back in love with the Mindslaver lock, especially with two ways -- Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth; and Riftstone Portal -- to make everything a mana producer.
Ensnaring Bridge is great -- it simply shuts down a number of aggro decks in game one -- but I dislike that Intuition is the only way to find it, since it's not transmutable with Tolaria West. I don't know that there's anything I can do about that, though.
I'd also love to find a way to squeeze Mishra's Factory in, but it's a pretty tight list already. Volrath's Stronghold might not be strictly necessary, since it's primarily for keeping Bob alive post-board, and I think Karakas can probably be relegated to the sideboard. Maybe those two and the Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth can be turned into 3 Factories; maybe move Urborg to the board with the Karakas.
Finally, I've been looking for a way to shove Entomb in there, to take advantage of the black mana and do wacky graveyard stuff. I try to put Entomb in lots of graveyard decks, though, so I think it's more of a mental disability of mine than an actual good idea.
Anyway, that's my random brain dump of the list I've been tossing around. Thoughts?
@fdiv:
It seems like there might be too many 1-of artifacts in your build. I know that I am personally getting rid of Crypt maindeck when Survival rotates. EBridge, EExplosives, and Mindslaver seem like an overkill, especially when you only have 3 intuition rather then 4 to tutor. I never go less than 4 Exploration and 4 Manabond, because you either want one to be in your opening hand or you want to find one fast by digging or with Intuition. I'm sure that list will work alright, but it will definitely cause some awkward opening hands.
@fdiv:
It seems like there might be too many 1-of artifacts in your build. I know that I am personally getting rid of Crypt maindeck when Survival rotates. EBridge, EExplosives, and Mindslaver seem like an overkill, especially when you only have 3 intuition rather then 4 to tutor. I never go less than 4 Exploration and 4 Manabond, because you either want one to be in your opening hand or you want to find one fast by digging or with Intuition. I'm sure that list will work alright, but it will definitely cause some awkward opening hands.
All good points. I'm going to drop the maindeck Crypt and Needle once Survival goes away, almost certainly, and I've generally been pleased enough with 3 Manabond, since I don't really want to see multiple copies in a game. That said, with the loss of the two artifacts, I'd have one more slot each for Intuition and Manabond, which seems simple and sensible enough a change to make.
(I also notice that you're in Boone, NC. You ever make it over to the Triangle? We've got weekly Legacy events every Sunday in Durham, and would love to see some new faces, assuming we haven't seen you already. )
All good points. I'm going to drop the maindeck Crypt and Needle once Survival goes away, almost certainly, and I've generally been pleased enough with 3 Manabond, since I don't really want to see multiple copies in a game. That said, with the loss of the two artifacts, I'd have one more slot each for Intuition and Manabond, which seems simple and sensible enough a change to make.
(I also notice that you're in Boone, NC. You ever make it over to the Triangle? We've got weekly Legacy events every Sunday in Durham, and would love to see some new faces, assuming we haven't seen you already. )
Oh cool deal! Yeah I play with a few guys from Durham; I go to App State. Nice to know there's another Lands player in the area! I feel like Blue Lands has done quite well in the NC / VA region. Feel free to PM me about any tournament details in Durham, as I could be interested at some point.
@fdiv_bug:
I'm curious what your thoughts are on only having 36 land. I play 38, and whenever I adjust that downward it feels like opening hands become less consistent.
I agree with you on the 3 Manabond thing. Four sees multiple copies too often for my taste.
--------
Has anyone else taken a look at Chimeric Mass as a wincon? I've been toying with it for a while and it's been good so far.
Last question:
Given the banning, how do you all expect to fare in the upcoming meta? Do you think other combo decks will take the place of the various survival lists, or will the format shift toward aggro or control?
I don't have much experience with shifts in the legacy meta after bannings, so I'm looking for some insight into preemptive sideboard and strategy options.
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@fdiv_bug:
I'm curious what your thoughts are on only having 36 land. I play 38, and whenever I adjust that downward it feels like opening hands become less consistent.
It's never really been an issue for me. In my experience, 36 has still had enough density to give me the opportunity to use my Mox Diamonds on turn 1. I mean, there's the occasional goofy hand, but statistics mean that's going to happen to every deck at some point.
Has anyone else taken a look at Chimeric Mass as a wincon? I've been toying with it for a while and it's been good so far.
I've considered it, but I haven't done any testing with it or seen any serious testing being done by anyone else. What slot is it in for you? It seems like it could be pretty all right.
Given the banning, how do you all expect to fare in the upcoming meta? Do you think other combo decks will take the place of the various survival lists, or will the format shift toward aggro or control?
I don't have much experience with shifts in the legacy meta after bannings, so I'm looking for some insight into preemptive sideboard and strategy options.
I think there will be of a surge towards stuff like Countertop now that Survival is gone. There may be a quick spike in ANT too but Top will beat them and then Fish will move it again. Once that happens we will be best positioned. Regardless of what happens unless a new deck like Survival springs forward the Legacy metagame doesn't drastically move. More of a certain deck sees play for a bit but it isn't like it's 50% of a single deck at events. If combo spikes in play it will suck for us but as always the meta will reshift and we will go back to beating all of the aggro players.
I think the debate about 3 or 4 Manabonds is probably worth having, because I think only playing 3 will significantly hurt your win percentage. This deck wins (and only wins) if you have either a Manabond or an Exploration in play in addition to Life from the Loam. We have 4 Intuition to find these pieces or to find some utility lands.
Seeing Manabonds in multiples is definitely not bad in any blue matchup, as Manabond and Exploration are the primary Force targets in the deck. They will always Force a Manabond. Not to mention Thoughtseize and Duress run rampant in those Rock decks that are seeing a lot of play. And what about Pridemage in various Bant decks and Zoo? Even if I don't play against blue or Rock or a deck playing Pridemage, the times that I see 2 Manabonds are worth the times when I have 1 when I would otherwise have none. Life from the Loam completely negates any card disadvantage from mulligans or double Manabonds when you don't need them.
I agree with this statement. I do like the Phyrexian one a lot more than the Mirran one, but I think I'll stick with my "What Color Would You Like Me To Beat You With Today?" and "T That Ass" shirts.
realms unchartered is simply a bad intuition. The only advantage is that it costs G rather then blue. It can Only fetch lands. Intuition, well, is simply better by being able to fetch what you need here and now, at instant speed.
Gamble is slightly better as well being able to fetch anything at the cost of R.
Overall it is a mediocre card, not something a deck as complex as this wants, maybe budget at best.
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Realms Uncharted was talked a lot before but it was decided that Intuition is just a better card.
+1.
Realms Uncharted's only strength is that it can be cast with green mana, but that's not enough of a plus to overcome the restrictions it imposes on what we can find. Intuition allows some incredibly smart plays to get you out of a number of situations, not the least of which are Academy Ruins + Loam + artifact piles, or the three-of-a-kind piles when you need one specific card.
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Exactly. We are perfectly fine with Moon effects.
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Turn 1: Mountain, Lackey.
Turn 2: Wasteland your Maze of Ith, Swing with Lackey, Cheat in "insert threatening goblin here".
I mean it's still possible to win here but it requires the right cards.
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Yeah, this is true for all the hyper-aggressive decks, of which Goblins is the top, in my opinion. Against a slower deck, you'll have more time to fix bad plays or overcome some minor bad luck. Goblins in particular also attacks its opponent's mana base more than other decks -- is there another mainstream deck, besides Goblins and Lands, that runs 4 Rishadan Port?
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I wasn't really sure.
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Am I missing something here?
Thanks to Le_Gambit for this awesome sig!
Mishra's Factory, once we have control of the board, does the same amount of damage and already has a place in the deck as one of the lands.
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He's talking about scroll instead of aeliopile
That's... actually pretty good. Scroll costs 1 more to cast and activate immediately, but having enough mana to do what we want isn't typically the problem, especially if your Mazes and Tabernacle have suddenly become mana-producing Mountains. It also requires fewer hoops involving Academy Ruins to keep applying pressure to the opponent's face, allowing us to keep Loaming (and, ideally, simply name "Life from the Loam" every time you use the Scroll).
Good call, CoPRed (and Sigma-X who pointed out what he was talking about).
Thanks to Le_Gambit for this awesome sig!
4 Exploration
3 Manabond
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Intuition
1 Mindslaver
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zuran Orb
Lands (36):
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Maze of Ith
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Gargoyle Castle
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Dark Confidant
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Explosives
(The sideboard is still exactly as mchainmail had it in his Source post; I haven't yet done any work with it.)
I've absolutely adored Gargoyle Castle as a win condition, because even with an Ensnaring Bridge on the table, I can Loam back exactly 3 lands, attack with some Gargoyle tokens I've built up by recurring the Castle, and then dump my hand before passing the turn. I've also fallen back in love with the Mindslaver lock, especially with two ways -- Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth; and Riftstone Portal -- to make everything a mana producer.
Ensnaring Bridge is great -- it simply shuts down a number of aggro decks in game one -- but I dislike that Intuition is the only way to find it, since it's not transmutable with Tolaria West. I don't know that there's anything I can do about that, though.
I'd also love to find a way to squeeze Mishra's Factory in, but it's a pretty tight list already. Volrath's Stronghold might not be strictly necessary, since it's primarily for keeping Bob alive post-board, and I think Karakas can probably be relegated to the sideboard. Maybe those two and the Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth can be turned into 3 Factories; maybe move Urborg to the board with the Karakas.
Finally, I've been looking for a way to shove Entomb in there, to take advantage of the black mana and do wacky graveyard stuff. I try to put Entomb in lots of graveyard decks, though, so I think it's more of a mental disability of mine than an actual good idea.
Anyway, that's my random brain dump of the list I've been tossing around. Thoughts?
It seems like there might be too many 1-of artifacts in your build. I know that I am personally getting rid of Crypt maindeck when Survival rotates. EBridge, EExplosives, and Mindslaver seem like an overkill, especially when you only have 3 intuition rather then 4 to tutor. I never go less than 4 Exploration and 4 Manabond, because you either want one to be in your opening hand or you want to find one fast by digging or with Intuition. I'm sure that list will work alright, but it will definitely cause some awkward opening hands.
All good points. I'm going to drop the maindeck Crypt and Needle once Survival goes away, almost certainly, and I've generally been pleased enough with 3 Manabond, since I don't really want to see multiple copies in a game. That said, with the loss of the two artifacts, I'd have one more slot each for Intuition and Manabond, which seems simple and sensible enough a change to make.
(I also notice that you're in Boone, NC. You ever make it over to the Triangle? We've got weekly Legacy events every Sunday in Durham, and would love to see some new faces, assuming we haven't seen you already. )
Oh cool deal! Yeah I play with a few guys from Durham; I go to App State. Nice to know there's another Lands player in the area! I feel like Blue Lands has done quite well in the NC / VA region. Feel free to PM me about any tournament details in Durham, as I could be interested at some point.
I'm curious what your thoughts are on only having 36 land. I play 38, and whenever I adjust that downward it feels like opening hands become less consistent.
I agree with you on the 3 Manabond thing. Four sees multiple copies too often for my taste.
--------
Has anyone else taken a look at Chimeric Mass as a wincon? I've been toying with it for a while and it's been good so far.
Last question:
Given the banning, how do you all expect to fare in the upcoming meta? Do you think other combo decks will take the place of the various survival lists, or will the format shift toward aggro or control?
I don't have much experience with shifts in the legacy meta after bannings, so I'm looking for some insight into preemptive sideboard and strategy options.
I am John Galt.
It's never really been an issue for me. In my experience, 36 has still had enough density to give me the opportunity to use my Mox Diamonds on turn 1. I mean, there's the occasional goofy hand, but statistics mean that's going to happen to every deck at some point.
I've considered it, but I haven't done any testing with it or seen any serious testing being done by anyone else. What slot is it in for you? It seems like it could be pretty all right.
I think there will be of a surge towards stuff like Countertop now that Survival is gone. There may be a quick spike in ANT too but Top will beat them and then Fish will move it again. Once that happens we will be best positioned. Regardless of what happens unless a new deck like Survival springs forward the Legacy metagame doesn't drastically move. More of a certain deck sees play for a bit but it isn't like it's 50% of a single deck at events. If combo spikes in play it will suck for us but as always the meta will reshift and we will go back to beating all of the aggro players.
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Seeing Manabonds in multiples is definitely not bad in any blue matchup, as Manabond and Exploration are the primary Force targets in the deck. They will always Force a Manabond. Not to mention Thoughtseize and Duress run rampant in those Rock decks that are seeing a lot of play. And what about Pridemage in various Bant decks and Zoo? Even if I don't play against blue or Rock or a deck playing Pridemage, the times that I see 2 Manabonds are worth the times when I have 1 when I would otherwise have none. Life from the Loam completely negates any card disadvantage from mulligans or double Manabonds when you don't need them.
most broken standard deck ever http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=268050
Gamble is slightly better as well being able to fetch anything at the cost of R.
Overall it is a mediocre card, not something a deck as complex as this wants, maybe budget at best.
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mario91234 on MTGO and Twitch
You can:
A) Simply not pay it and then return it with Loam
B) Pay it once, sac it to Orb, the Return it with Loam.
Realms Uncharted was talked a lot before but it was decided that Intuition is just a better card.
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+1.
Realms Uncharted's only strength is that it can be cast with green mana, but that's not enough of a plus to overcome the restrictions it imposes on what we can find. Intuition allows some incredibly smart plays to get you out of a number of situations, not the least of which are Academy Ruins + Loam + artifact piles, or the three-of-a-kind piles when you need one specific card.