just out of curiousity, unless they make their lands into creatures, how is pernicious deed or even engineered explosives in any way a threat to 43land.dec??? They just play around them, and if they have them in their sideboard, side in Krosan Grips (which unless I am mistaken, most should have them)...
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Right on the money. It's manland hate, that's all. And yes, deed dies to grip. In a moment of retardation I forgot the wording on Engineered Explosives, I am aware that it can't hit land permanents.
Right on the money. It's manland hate, that's all. And yes, deed dies to grip. In a moment of retardation I forgot the wording on Engineered Explosives, I am aware that it can't hit land permanents.
Its not that deed dies to grip, its that you pass priority or you dont make it long enough for deed to be activated. You should focus on swords removing manlands and removing opponents LFTL asap. If they dont have it then just focus on protecting your own lands. The matchup is Virtually unwinable preboard for four color, and it only gets alittle better post.
for 3 color has the same problem. Dif's list has a small advantage pre because of its resiliancy to wasteland, and ability to get around LFTL with relic, but other then that the threats they bring can be difficult to stop. Treetop meets vendillion, mishra-mishra, swords fae conclave keep them off threshhold with relic and make some elspeth FTW. Thats the basic idea.
Yeah Mossivo is pretty much right. Also as I said before there is usually no reason for 43 lands to overextend against the likes of landstill. 43lands has the ability to outplay landstill regardless and you can't really expect players to walk right into a pernicious deed by activating all of their manlands to attack you.
So who's taking this deck to chicago and what decks should we expect to be there? I'm expecting alot of thresh of course (probably canadian and swans) and lots of people rocking goblins like its 2007. Luckily, those are both good matchups for landstill. That said, what bad matchups should we expect at a large tournament like this? We know dreadstill and team america will be in force because of 2008 worlds. Dreadstill is no biggie, but TA can definitely cause us problems, especially with a resolved tombstalker and discard flying everywhere. I also expect alot of ichorid because its cheap to make and lots of people can port it from extended for the mere cost of LEDs, and this sure as hell isn't a fun match for landstill. Anyway, landstill is a deck that can definitely weather the storm in chicago, so let me know your thoughts and what we can do to better be prepared.
I recently added cunning wish to my UWB vindicate landstill build and the list so far has been on a tear in testing. My list also doesn't seem to have that much trouble against Team America based on my actual testing. Vindicate supplemented with swords to plowshares is a efficient way to decimate their entire threat density suite. Also, eternal dragon can be rather brilliant in this matchup. Considering, E. dragon gives you the resiliency to hit all of your land drops. Land denial becomes less detrimental for you when you utilize E. dragon as a manabase fixer.
On another note, I also have been doing some extensive testing against Team America with Der Imaginure Freund's experimental list and majority of the time his list is ahead of TA's land disruption. Ponder and Brainstorm fixes your draw quality in such a way that they can greatly dictate your land drop rate. That said, both cantrips provides you with the opportunity to draw into more lands and totally neglect land hate.
Storm combo in my opinion seems like the better option to play over Ichorid at GP chicago but even so many archetypes will be present at GP Chicago and Ichorid is definitely no exception. Also I think tribal decks will be common there as well. Considering both merfolks and Elf Survival have been doing pretty well recently at the most noticable tournaments. It will be definitely beneficial if you prepare a general sideboard for GP chicago. A general sideboard for 4c landstill would be something like this(keep in mind these are only example templates):
I think we should expect in chicago decks that are easily adapated from standard extended or vintage to be there. In this case I would make a case for:
Ichorid
Faeries
Merfolk
Elves combo.
That said the new natural order thresh decks should make things a bit more interesting and although I don't much like the idea of any of that, I still think merfolk should be the worst deck for us to play against.
Merfolk with vial and standstill = horrible times. Also I think we should expect some countersliver and some dragon stompy. Goblins seems to be popular in michigan so I would also expect that. I'm not sure exactly what to say about this gp. But I can tell you I deffinately would play for merfolk and fae to be a rabbid part of the metagame.
If I were any of you I deffinately would not reccommend playing 4 because of its weakness to stifle/ wasteland/ blood moon weakness. Also it has a terrible game against other decks that expose how weak 4c decks are to simple aggression.
In my experience 4c is stronger against straight-ahead aggro because it tends to play more removal slots plus it has loam which is harder for aggro to remove than crucible. Not that 4c doesn't have its obvious flaws, I have no disillusions about dealing with blood moon. The way I look at it, and this could be wrong, is that almost every deck in the format except burn is hurt by stifle and wasteland, at least we have land recursion. That leaves blood moon/magus which are an issue and back to basics which is easy to get out, especially post board. Anyway, I was hoping you guys could help me fit engineered plagues into my board. I never have to use it in my local meta because the only tribal is merfolk and isn't played much. My current board is:
4 blue elemental blast (only weapon against moon, great against goblins, burn and burning wish.dec.)
4 chalice of the void (excellent against burn and chalice at 1 stops ANT cold)
3 Tormod's Crypt (obvious uses)
1 Relic of Progenitus (another main and with 1 enlightened tutor, this lets me survive aggro loam and it truly is important)
3 Krosan Grip (obvious uses; I really hate sensei's divining top)
That first list is a newer version that runs wasteland and vindicate together for an effective land destruction package. I think it's only doing well because its unorthodox. People fetch duals liberally against landstill because they don't expect an ld strategy but the hype on this style will die down soon. Most three color lists still run humility and elspeth but the land destruction 'speed still' (I think it's being called now) is doing well nonetheless.
Nice primer I got one question though... Card choices are nice, but I would like to know why some cards are left out in the first build:
Humility
Crucible of Worlds
Dust Bowl( instead of Wasteland)
Acardemy Ruins
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Can you tell my each of this card isn't included?
BB
Thanks! Glad you like my primer. Well I have been wanting to include more primers in the opening post and certain Landstill decks that I am going to try to review will include all of those cards you mentioned. I just haven't had the time yet to update the opening post with more primers. I have been mostly busy with work and getting ready to move from Nevada State to Washington state. So I can attend graduate level chemistry classes up there and etc. Which will probably take an overly huge amount of time to study. That said, my dedication for the legacy format isn't as nearly as strong as it once was.
@3Deuce: Vindicate isn't just utilized for land destruction though it removes counterbalance and tombstalker and other popular card choices. Vindicate is a strong card in it's own right and when it's paired with power draw like fact or fiction and standstill it makes the card that much better.
@3Deuce: Vindicate isn't just utilized for land destruction though it removes counterbalance and tombstalker and other popular card choices. Vindicate is a strong card in it's own right and when it's paired with power draw like fact or fiction and standstill it makes the card that much better.[/quote]
I know. The fact the it's an out to tombstalker is easily reason enough to run it.
I know. The fact the it's an out to tombstalker is easily reason enough to run it.
Definitely. Vindicate is a strong card. Of course, Humility, elspeth have their purposes in landstill as well. Elspeth, Knight-Errant is great because she's good against just about anything and she's hard to kill. Humility is what makes you win the survival and goblin matchups.
I was hoping to get some feedback on the intuition build I've been working on. Yes, it is more open to grave-hate, but what I love about intuition is how open-ended it is and I feel it gives the deck alot of consistency whether you're putting together a recursion pile or not. Current issues I'm having are:
1. Manabase: I feel the fetches and duals are correct, and I'm quite happy with the utility land selection. Dust bowl is great here because it doesn't need loam the way wasteland does, ruins is necessary for alot of the best recursion piles, and sandbar is a great draw engine and taps for blue. My issue is basics, mainly that I want a basic forest, but I won't be able to fetch it. Any thoughts on this? Should I just say ♥♥♥♥ it?
2. Win conditions: I currently have recurring factories, 3 tombstalkers and ruins for decking. Is this enough? I'm not sure where I'd fit tarmogoyf if I wanted it. Should I consider psychatog since this basically a tog/landstill hybrid?
Any help for opinions would be appreciated, thanks!
Why in god's name are you running executioner's capsule? Sub that out for an edict or something splash white for vindicate or run another engineered explosives just anything but that card should be in legacy. The only thing it can kill that terror can't is dreadnought and can be recurred with academy ruins sure but so can EE just cut the card right now absolutely horrible...
Yeah elspeth is amazing in this deck casting a standstill with elspeth active is a-m-a-z-i-n-g
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To be quite honest Benie the reason you don't see the wish still variant that your looking for on there is because Geoff's landstill model is probobly the most consistently performing out of the landstills that are playing right now.
They have more efficient answers for the problem matchups. They also win pretty quickly in the tempo mana race if necessary. This is called speedstill or 3c vin still as I refer to it. The list your referring to generally speaking runs a small wish package as opposed to the vindicate package which answers some problem matchups that more traditional models like vin still have. I really hate to lower the cue down but I really dislike the idea of vin still being succesfull at all because like 3duece stated it's pretty much a fad and when people learn how to make manabases in magic vin still will suffer in its land destruction path to victory.
As for wish still there have been numerous updates to my list lately and I will share.
1 humility
2 sensei's devining top
3 engineered explosives
2 relic of progenitus
2 vendillion clique
2 elspeth knight errant
sb:
1 pulse
1 extirpate
1 return to dust
1 enlightened tutor
1 path to exile
1 hydroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 runed halo
1 relic of progenitus
1 cop: green
2 ajani
3 EP
On the maindeck:
From the last time I posted here you may notice a bit of a change in the way the deck performs. I cutt the following
-1 vendillion
-1 relic
-2 ponder
I added the following
+1 spell snare
+1 elspeth knight-errant
+2 sensei's devining top
Top has probobly been the best addition for the deck that i've added in a long time other then elspeth knight-errant. Originally I thought I would need something a bit more efficient in the ponder slots. I do love me some ponder but the one time effect was really killing me, and since I don't get a double kantrip off of it like threshhold does it really hurt me in matchups where i'd see brainstorm and ponder off of a brainstorm. "Unfriendly brainstorming"
Elspeth is too good of a finisher and board equalizer in this format to really consider not running. when I didn't see it I was loosing more games just because I couldn't dig for one with 7 brainstorms 3 standstills and an fof. That can be a problem. So I added in a second so that I can still make a mistake if I accidently do as well as see one every single game.
also spell snare I wasnt seeing enough either and at 3 I have never been unhappy as everyone says that spell snares slot is at 3.
the sideboard:
I took out mages because gp chicago is said to be more aggro and aggro control then pure control. That said i'm not really worried about the mirror and honestly I think cop green could go all the way in some matchups like threshhold or survival elves with progenitus, "reminder that any cop stops progenitus, as well as runed halo and humility." My deck is sweet against natural order
Anyways This is what I will be running save for a couple of slots and I cant wait to be in gp chicago having a blast. i'll check back once before I leave and then i'll write a full tourney report. !!!
Haha, hey man, don't knock it till you've tried it. But seriously, the p.o.s. capsule is there for a couple of reasons. It dodges meddling mage and extirpate. More importantly, however, you can drop it then play standstill, this makes it something to consider. The reason I switched to this build in the first place was because I love 4c, but it's the weakest build under a standstill, especially with dreadstill and merfolk running around. Intuiton lets me set up multiple situations where I now feel comfortable dropping a standstill when I wouldn't before. Executioner's capsule is something you can play against, merfolk for example, that answers their mutavaults without having to trade a factory or worry about a wasteland on dust bowl. I am aware that it very situational, but I've been playing landstill for quite a while and I feel comfortable running a singleton situational card, especially in an intuition engine. I certainly won't advocate anyone trying to play the capsule and pretend it's killer tech, but it's an effective solution to a problem.
This being said, I am thinking about some changes to the deck that would include removal of the capsule. The more I think about volrath's stronghold the more I want it in my list, especially because the 4 pernicious deeds allow me to kill eternal witness when I need it again. I guess stronghold/witness makes intuition much stronger, so maybe I'll find room. I'm actually considering cutting to 1 engineered explosives as well and adding the fourth tropical island. I'm not sure what's correct, I'll have to test some more.
Your build looks nice. Quite weird, but the longer I look at it, the more I like it. Some questions.
I understand the deck may look kind of odd, but the idea is that it plays just as well against your good matchups and brings in better cards for most of your worst ones. My particular version has a weak matchup against ant but that is ok. You can always improve the ant matchup with mages and the like if you want to. For the GP I took out mages for the following
+1 EP
+1 Runed halo
+1 Circle of protection: Green
I actually liked these choices better because of the metagame present.
Vendillion Clique. What is the main use of it? In wich matchups do you use it? Do you normally play it on yourself or your opponent?
Vendillion is a unique counterspell/ kantrip if you need it. It's also the second best flyer in the format #1 being tombstalker. The close third is exalted angel or tygon predator. Vendillion acts as counterspell for this deck or as a must counter threat which is REALLY nice. It ends games if not answers quickly which is exactly what you want. Landstill has answers and is best played as a deck with answers. It is not a deck that wants to counter everything and then win. That takes a. too much time b. it doesn't work like that in this metagame.
To answer your question about what I choose. In loam matchups obviously loam or a must answer card. Against ta Tombstalker. Against dreadstill, naught or krosan grip. Against the mirror plainswalkers or decree of justice. Against ugw thresh usuallly counterbalance or tygon predator. Depending on the situation obviously. The mere fact that you get a flash creature and has a 3/1 body is pretty sick. Also eot vendillion choosing a force of will then resolving your elspeth giving your vendillion serra's embrace until end of turn and swinging for 6 is pretty nuts.
Singleton Ponder. I never liked this card outside Threshold. It's only decent turn 1, and it becomes worse over time. I rather play raw carddraw like Fact or Fiction for it or the third Sensei's Divining Top.
The third top is too much. Ponder used to be a 3 of in the deck, but since the format is much slower then it used to be top replaced two slots. The lone ponder is basicly to get around teeg, but easily could be an FOF. I just didn't want to clog up the four drop slot. Honestly it could be a path to exile as well. It's just a preferance thing.
MD Relics. I removed GY hate completely from my deck, it didn't help me at all. Against Ichorid it's quite weak. No way to find it( Standstill doesn't work) and it costs 2 mana to use. Cunning Wish deals with Loam.
Maindeck relic is usefull because it stops goyf from going overboard. It's actually pretty nutty in this metagame. It stops almost every metagame deck in the format. Threshhold, ta, survival, sometimes the mirror, theres alot more Im just running out of time to answer questions. Basicly its a utility slot thats an incredibly efficient answer, or at absolute worst a cycle.
Manabase. With the high amount of colorless cost( Relic and Top) the removal of double white/blue( Counterspell, Wrath of God) I think you can play the fourth Mishra's Factory.
I wouldn't remove wrath as I find it absolutely awesome. Opponents will often overextend if they don't see you use it immidiately and it is one of the cards I would actually keep in the mirror to stop an opponent from going crazy with elspeth tokens and the like. As for the landbase its really solid. The only thing I might do is change 1 underground sea and 1 polluted delta and add in vindicates as opposed to vendillion, but thats if the metagame called for it. It just depends on how much loam you expect to play against. I realisticly expected to play against a fair ammount of loam at the gp, but I didn't play it all day.
Do you know the deck It's the Fear? It's simply your list, without Landstill and added Counterbalance Top. The problem is that Standstill and Intuition doesn't mix very well. Both are designed to get cardadvantage, but Standstill goes for raw card advantage and Intuition for quality. When you combine them Landstill might draw in cards that are to specific, but are in because of Intuition. And Intuition can't be cast with a Standstill in play.
Your removal package might be a little to weak too. Sure once you get reanimating Pernicious Deed, there is very little to stop you, but if an opponent can get you of 3 lands( Goblins/Merfolks) 4 Edicts won't save you. Especially when Gobilns starts with Lackey.
It's actually more like togless tog, but whatever. The thing about intuition and standstill conflicting is simply not true. For the years I played landstill without intuition I ran fact or fiction, which has similar issues with standstill as intuition, but that doesn't make it not an absurdly powerful tool. In fact, the synergy between intuition, life from the loam and utility lands is quite strong with standstill. Casting intuition for loam, dust bowl and mishra's factory, loaming and then dropping standstill is a very strong play. Also this deck plays much differently than ITF (I've played that too) because not only does it not run countertop, it doesn't need to support a curve for it. I get to have a higher curve and play beastly stuff like tombstalker without having to worry about whether or not I can support counterbalance. Also, against turn 1 lackey you don't play edict you play mishra's factory, just sayin'.
One of the main reasons to have a singleton ponder is mainly for the consistency of having five brainstorms in the deck. Which seems nice but at the sametime you can't really gain that much advantage from it in a pure control deck. Ponder is for decks like threshold since they can gain immediate advantage considering they play with actual threats to put your opponent on a quick clock. While, Landstill relies on actual board control elements with a late game finisher to win. Raw draw power would be more fitting in this case since your refilling a good portion of your hand to control the game or maintain control of the game at a constant rate.
Landstill can only use cantrips in one efficient way and that's by sculpting a favorable hand early to deal with early game cards played by your opponent. While, for a deck like threshold they can use cantrips in more then one way. Either by feeding goyf or other threats to have an favorable board position against the opposing player in the early stages and/or supplementing cantrips with countertop to gain card advantage that way. That said, threshold can find any utility card/threats they want in a reasonable timely fashion since they run a dozen or so cantrips just to be overwhelming enough in the early to mid game to get those wins.
[quote=Cecilia;/comments/4101829]One of the main reasons to have a singleton ponder is mainly for the consistency of having five brainstorms in the deck.
It's also the 5th shuffle effect that makes it worthy. As with fof which costs four mana to get basicly the same kind of effect, a new top 3 cards. Sensei's devining top is amazing, but you need to be able to shuffle and look at will. With ponder not only do I not have to screw my manabase, but I also kantrip for one mana as well as a shuffle. I consider that tons better then fofing most of the time. Yes fof is much more powerfull but the 4cc slots are very precious and u want to mantain that solid curve this deck deffinately has.
Which seems nice but at the sametime you can't really gain that much advantage from it in a pure control deck.
This version of landstill is much more aggressive then most others in the red zone. The addition of vendillion and the way you use the combat step against other aggro control decks like dreadstill and ta are much different then that of speedstill or 4c landstill. I simply like the approach alot more because it keeps my opponent guessing.
Ponder is for decks like threshold since they can gain immediate advantage considering they play with actual threats to put your opponent on a quick clock. While, Landstill relies on actual board control elements with a late game finisher to win. Raw draw power would be more fitting in this case since your refilling a good portion of your hand to control the game or maintain control of the game at a constant rate.
Once again I do agree with most of what your saying but I can't help but think that anything that runs blue that doesn't use ponder as menindian says is really lacking. Either your ripping apart your manabase with fetches, or your being conservative and not getting taken down by stifle/ wasteland. I'd rather take the safe efficient approach then the difficult one.
Landstill can only use cantrips in one efficient way and that's by sculpting a favorable hand early to deal with early game cards played by your opponent.
This version is more dedicated to manipulating your top 3 consistently in order to smooth out your draws and not necesarily shape your hand. The reason for this is to not get ripped apart by decks running 8duress 4 hymn. Those decks loose to this deck because of the consistent manipulation and the ability to just continue dropping lands and playing spells until I get a large enough manabase to drop humility or vendillion or something more deadly. It's quite efficient and I suggest you try it. Once again im not knocking fof because its deffinately a game ender, but running two along with 5 other four drops plus force pluse the tutors is a bit much to handle sometimes without the likes of consistent shuffling and answers being brough up with kantrips. Heart of the cards bro. Also I won almost every single game on the back of elspeth- true story.
All in all I used kantrips the same way thresh does, but I just cast bigger threats that are universal threats to the metagame as most landstill does. I just do it more efficiently without sacrificing my long game or my big spells in order to so it.
You can disagree if you want Mossivo it doesn't really matter to me.
Sensei's divining top is indeed amazing in landstill. I personally would rather run top over the ponder. Of course, their utility functions is almost exactly identical. But I think top is considerably better then ponder is especially when supplemented with standstill. You can manipulate your library underneath a standstill which seems like an obvious advantage over ponder regarding to standstill. Standstill gets incrementally stronger the more lands you play and top can fix your draws in such a way where you can draw more lands underneath a standstill. I have won a few landstill mirrors that way when I would have top and standstill in play simultaneously. Having both cards in play can actually get you the cards you need in the mirror like decree and dustbowl. While making both cards incrementally more efficient and decisive.
Of course, landstill lists with ponders does seem more aggressive then traditional lists but that doesn't mean that they play completely differently. Both variants still have the same overall gameplan by taking control of the game and winning the late game. Elspeth is a brilliant late game finisher but I don't think it's that much faster then decree of justice. Sure Elspeth can be great against the mirror, aggro-control, and aggro but it doesn't really change the fact that its a late game card. As for Clique, I look at Vendellion Clique as a expensive counterspell that doesn't really help you in your bad matchups. While, only helping you in your good matchups that you should be winning anyway regardless of having Vendellion Clique or not.
As for decks with discard I have won a ton of games since spell snare, force of will, and counterspell makes discard obsolete. Brainstorm finds you what you need too and running four of them is plenty against the likes of the rock and black suicide decks(referring to my actual testing experience).
It's definitely not a requirement at least in my opinion that Landstill obsolutely needs card manipulation and shuffling effects to produce a favorable outcome at least not excessively anyway. Especially considering landstill already runs cards like FoF and standstill which fills in the gap of the lack of library manipulation and card shuffling.
You also don't really need to be conservative with your land drops especially playing with a deck like landstill. Landstill usually runs plenty of lands and with cards like E.dragon and basic lands at your disposal running into wastelands and stifles isn't a large concern at all.
Before I go about giving you feedback. I have several questions to ask.
1. Have you even tested the deck beforehand?
2. How does this deck play out against the likes of goblins, merfolks, and elves? Which seemed like about half of the field at GP Chicago.
3. Why did you decide to play this over something like UWb Landstill?
4. Is five fetchlands really enough for 4 color landstill? I would encourage to run like 8 fetchlands even though I ran a 4c landstill to some success with just 7 blue fetches.
5. How does this deck do against the likes of tempo aggro-control variants such as UGr Canadian Threshold and Team America?
6. How is your Counterbalance Aggro-Control matchup?
7. How is your Storm Combo matchup?
Those are some points to take into account when designing a competitive legacy deck.
Sorry if I sounded harsh but I like to encourage people to post more detailed and intelligent posts on here especially since this is my thread. But if you really want quick feedback you can send me your list through private messaging.
Sorry if this comes out as harsh, I'm just going to lay down the points as I see them, I've been playing 4c for a long time.
1. Your manabase is busted. 5 fetches and 8 colorless sources will absolutely not work, ever. Play all 8 fetches, it's just not negotiable. Drop either the wastelands or monasteries, probably wastelands since your only wincon is land.
2. Pernicious deed is the ONLY reason to play 4c. Run four. You want one in your opener and you'll probably have to cast a second before the game is completely stable. You can shuffle excess copies away with brainstorm and your 8 fetches.
3. You're running 3 fact or fiction, which means you want at least 1 life from the loam. Cut a crucible for it. Loam makes fact or fiction more powerful because it makes creating piles more difficult for the opponent and it allows you to dump piles with manlands/wastes even if you need them.
4. Innocent Blood- this card is not necessarily a bad choice but could probably be better used as either a solid wincondition (I run tombstalker but something like jace beleren or call the skybreaker would work too) or something that makes standstill better (keep the wasteland or maybe try decree of justice)
Hope that helps.
This is my current list for reference, not like I'm a pro or anything but it works perdy good.
Well thankyou guys for the imput it is greatly appreciated, I have play tested this deck before, except I played disenchant instead of vindicate, I like vindicate more, I have never played against merfolk but I have played elves, and goblins and i do very well against them being aggro only i Think it does pretty decent against combo, and thats why I have the sideboard to hate on any combo deck, And I really do agree with the fetchs because of the color, I choice to do what I did because I prefer to have the lands themselves as opposed to the fetches which if I did up it I would probably go to like 6-7 I have run into to many games where it just doesnt love me if I dont have the dual land. I had not thought about running the life from the loam it gives another good reason to be running green besides the deed (if it wasnt reason enough) I am always just afraid of dredging the card I need or no being able to find the crucible if its a 1 of, thought about running academy ruins to just to help with getting back the crucible. I really like wasteland but I do agree there just isn't enough room for it, maybe a one of with crucible/ loam lock and Idk why everyone plays diabloic edict, or chainers edict over innocent blood, seems far cheaper and more effective. this build was from a few months ago and I dont really know the match ups against new decks from GP chicago, I know i have a little rough time against lands I have to hit the right cards, and against counterbalance/aggro I have vindicate and some other cards, I think that comes down to play skill I could be wrong. but I greatly appreciate the ideas thats why I posted
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:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver
Its not that deed dies to grip, its that you pass priority or you dont make it long enough for deed to be activated. You should focus on swords removing manlands and removing opponents LFTL asap. If they dont have it then just focus on protecting your own lands. The matchup is Virtually unwinable preboard for four color, and it only gets alittle better post.
for 3 color has the same problem. Dif's list has a small advantage pre because of its resiliancy to wasteland, and ability to get around LFTL with relic, but other then that the threats they bring can be difficult to stop. Treetop meets vendillion, mishra-mishra, swords fae conclave keep them off threshhold with relic and make some elspeth FTW. Thats the basic idea.
Pullus per Mucro
:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver
On another note, I also have been doing some extensive testing against Team America with Der Imaginure Freund's experimental list and majority of the time his list is ahead of TA's land disruption. Ponder and Brainstorm fixes your draw quality in such a way that they can greatly dictate your land drop rate. That said, both cantrips provides you with the opportunity to draw into more lands and totally neglect land hate.
Storm combo in my opinion seems like the better option to play over Ichorid at GP chicago but even so many archetypes will be present at GP Chicago and Ichorid is definitely no exception. Also I think tribal decks will be common there as well. Considering both merfolks and Elf Survival have been doing pretty well recently at the most noticable tournaments. It will be definitely beneficial if you prepare a general sideboard for GP chicago. A general sideboard for 4c landstill would be something like this(keep in mind these are only example templates):
3 Blue elemental blast
4 Leyline of the void
4 Meddling mage
Or
2 Hydroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
4 Meddling Mage
Ichorid
Faeries
Merfolk
Elves combo.
That said the new natural order thresh decks should make things a bit more interesting and although I don't much like the idea of any of that, I still think merfolk should be the worst deck for us to play against.
Merfolk with vial and standstill = horrible times. Also I think we should expect some countersliver and some dragon stompy. Goblins seems to be popular in michigan so I would also expect that. I'm not sure exactly what to say about this gp. But I can tell you I deffinately would play for merfolk and fae to be a rabbid part of the metagame.
If I were any of you I deffinately would not reccommend playing 4 because of its weakness to stifle/ wasteland/ blood moon weakness. Also it has a terrible game against other decks that expose how weak 4c decks are to simple aggression.
Pullus per Mucro
4 blue elemental blast (only weapon against moon, great against goblins, burn and burning wish.dec.)
4 chalice of the void (excellent against burn and chalice at 1 stops ANT cold)
3 Tormod's Crypt (obvious uses)
1 Relic of Progenitus (another main and with 1 enlightened tutor, this lets me survive aggro loam and it truly is important)
3 Krosan Grip (obvious uses; I really hate sensei's divining top)
:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver
:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver
Thanks! Glad you like my primer. Well I have been wanting to include more primers in the opening post and certain Landstill decks that I am going to try to review will include all of those cards you mentioned. I just haven't had the time yet to update the opening post with more primers. I have been mostly busy with work and getting ready to move from Nevada State to Washington state. So I can attend graduate level chemistry classes up there and etc. Which will probably take an overly huge amount of time to study. That said, my dedication for the legacy format isn't as nearly as strong as it once was.
@3Deuce: Vindicate isn't just utilized for land destruction though it removes counterbalance and tombstalker and other popular card choices. Vindicate is a strong card in it's own right and when it's paired with power draw like fact or fiction and standstill it makes the card that much better.
I know. The fact the it's an out to tombstalker is easily reason enough to run it.
:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver
Definitely. Vindicate is a strong card. Of course, Humility, elspeth have their purposes in landstill as well. Elspeth, Knight-Errant is great because she's good against just about anything and she's hard to kill. Humility is what makes you win the survival and goblin matchups.
1. Manabase: I feel the fetches and duals are correct, and I'm quite happy with the utility land selection. Dust bowl is great here because it doesn't need loam the way wasteland does, ruins is necessary for alot of the best recursion piles, and sandbar is a great draw engine and taps for blue. My issue is basics, mainly that I want a basic forest, but I won't be able to fetch it. Any thoughts on this? Should I just say ♥♥♥♥ it?
2. Win conditions: I currently have recurring factories, 3 tombstalkers and ruins for decking. Is this enough? I'm not sure where I'd fit tarmogoyf if I wanted it. Should I consider psychatog since this basically a tog/landstill hybrid?
Any help for opinions would be appreciated, thanks!
2 flooded strand
4 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 island
1 swamp
4 mishra's factory
1 dust bowl
1 academy ruins
1 lonely sandbar
1 volrath's stronghold
4 brainstorm
4 intuition
4 counterspell
4 force of will
2 spell snare
4 pernicious deed
1 engineered explosives
1 life from the loam
3 diabolic edict
1 chainer's edict
1 eternal witness
3 tombstalker
:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver
Yeah elspeth is amazing in this deck casting a standstill with elspeth active is a-m-a-z-i-n-g
Currently Playing:
Retired
They have more efficient answers for the problem matchups. They also win pretty quickly in the tempo mana race if necessary. This is called speedstill or 3c vin still as I refer to it. The list your referring to generally speaking runs a small wish package as opposed to the vindicate package which answers some problem matchups that more traditional models like vin still have. I really hate to lower the cue down but I really dislike the idea of vin still being succesfull at all because like 3duece stated it's pretty much a fad and when people learn how to make manabases in magic vin still will suffer in its land destruction path to victory.
As for wish still there have been numerous updates to my list lately and I will share.
4 flooded
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
3 mishra
3 island
3 plains
1 tolaria west
1 ruins
1 dustbowl
4 force
4 brainstorm
4 swords
3 spell snare
2 cunning wish
1 ponder
1 FOF
1 humility
2 sensei's devining top
3 engineered explosives
2 relic of progenitus
2 vendillion clique
2 elspeth knight errant
sb:
1 pulse
1 extirpate
1 return to dust
1 enlightened tutor
1 path to exile
1 hydroblast
1 blue elemental blast
1 runed halo
1 relic of progenitus
1 cop: green
2 ajani
3 EP
On the maindeck:
From the last time I posted here you may notice a bit of a change in the way the deck performs. I cutt the following
-1 vendillion
-1 relic
-2 ponder
I added the following
+1 spell snare
+1 elspeth knight-errant
+2 sensei's devining top
Top has probobly been the best addition for the deck that i've added in a long time other then elspeth knight-errant. Originally I thought I would need something a bit more efficient in the ponder slots. I do love me some ponder but the one time effect was really killing me, and since I don't get a double kantrip off of it like threshhold does it really hurt me in matchups where i'd see brainstorm and ponder off of a brainstorm. "Unfriendly brainstorming"
Elspeth is too good of a finisher and board equalizer in this format to really consider not running. when I didn't see it I was loosing more games just because I couldn't dig for one with 7 brainstorms 3 standstills and an fof. That can be a problem. So I added in a second so that I can still make a mistake if I accidently do as well as see one every single game.
also spell snare I wasnt seeing enough either and at 3 I have never been unhappy as everyone says that spell snares slot is at 3.
the sideboard:
I took out mages because gp chicago is said to be more aggro and aggro control then pure control. That said i'm not really worried about the mirror and honestly I think cop green could go all the way in some matchups like threshhold or survival elves with progenitus, "reminder that any cop stops progenitus, as well as runed halo and humility." My deck is sweet against natural order
Anyways This is what I will be running save for a couple of slots and I cant wait to be in gp chicago having a blast. i'll check back once before I leave and then i'll write a full tourney report. !!!
ttyl
-Joel aka Moss
Pullus per Mucro
This being said, I am thinking about some changes to the deck that would include removal of the capsule. The more I think about volrath's stronghold the more I want it in my list, especially because the 4 pernicious deeds allow me to kill eternal witness when I need it again. I guess stronghold/witness makes intuition much stronger, so maybe I'll find room. I'm actually considering cutting to 1 engineered explosives as well and adding the fourth tropical island. I'm not sure what's correct, I'll have to test some more.
:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver
I understand the deck may look kind of odd, but the idea is that it plays just as well against your good matchups and brings in better cards for most of your worst ones. My particular version has a weak matchup against ant but that is ok. You can always improve the ant matchup with mages and the like if you want to. For the GP I took out mages for the following
+1 EP
+1 Runed halo
+1 Circle of protection: Green
I actually liked these choices better because of the metagame present.
Vendillion is a unique counterspell/ kantrip if you need it. It's also the second best flyer in the format #1 being tombstalker. The close third is exalted angel or tygon predator. Vendillion acts as counterspell for this deck or as a must counter threat which is REALLY nice. It ends games if not answers quickly which is exactly what you want. Landstill has answers and is best played as a deck with answers. It is not a deck that wants to counter everything and then win. That takes a. too much time b. it doesn't work like that in this metagame.
To answer your question about what I choose. In loam matchups obviously loam or a must answer card. Against ta Tombstalker. Against dreadstill, naught or krosan grip. Against the mirror plainswalkers or decree of justice. Against ugw thresh usuallly counterbalance or tygon predator. Depending on the situation obviously. The mere fact that you get a flash creature and has a 3/1 body is pretty sick. Also eot vendillion choosing a force of will then resolving your elspeth giving your vendillion serra's embrace until end of turn and swinging for 6 is pretty nuts.
The third top is too much. Ponder used to be a 3 of in the deck, but since the format is much slower then it used to be top replaced two slots. The lone ponder is basicly to get around teeg, but easily could be an FOF. I just didn't want to clog up the four drop slot. Honestly it could be a path to exile as well. It's just a preferance thing.
Maindeck relic is usefull because it stops goyf from going overboard. It's actually pretty nutty in this metagame. It stops almost every metagame deck in the format. Threshhold, ta, survival, sometimes the mirror, theres alot more Im just running out of time to answer questions. Basicly its a utility slot thats an incredibly efficient answer, or at absolute worst a cycle.
I wouldn't remove wrath as I find it absolutely awesome. Opponents will often overextend if they don't see you use it immidiately and it is one of the cards I would actually keep in the mirror to stop an opponent from going crazy with elspeth tokens and the like. As for the landbase its really solid. The only thing I might do is change 1 underground sea and 1 polluted delta and add in vindicates as opposed to vendillion, but thats if the metagame called for it. It just depends on how much loam you expect to play against. I realisticly expected to play against a fair ammount of loam at the gp, but I didn't play it all day.
For a full tournament report on the gp heres a link:
/http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13076
BB[/quote]
Pullus per Mucro
It's actually more like togless tog, but whatever. The thing about intuition and standstill conflicting is simply not true. For the years I played landstill without intuition I ran fact or fiction, which has similar issues with standstill as intuition, but that doesn't make it not an absurdly powerful tool. In fact, the synergy between intuition, life from the loam and utility lands is quite strong with standstill. Casting intuition for loam, dust bowl and mishra's factory, loaming and then dropping standstill is a very strong play. Also this deck plays much differently than ITF (I've played that too) because not only does it not run countertop, it doesn't need to support a curve for it. I get to have a higher curve and play beastly stuff like tombstalker without having to worry about whether or not I can support counterbalance. Also, against turn 1 lackey you don't play edict you play mishra's factory, just sayin'.
:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver
Landstill can only use cantrips in one efficient way and that's by sculpting a favorable hand early to deal with early game cards played by your opponent. While, for a deck like threshold they can use cantrips in more then one way. Either by feeding goyf or other threats to have an favorable board position against the opposing player in the early stages and/or supplementing cantrips with countertop to gain card advantage that way. That said, threshold can find any utility card/threats they want in a reasonable timely fashion since they run a dozen or so cantrips just to be overwhelming enough in the early to mid game to get those wins.
It's also the 5th shuffle effect that makes it worthy. As with fof which costs four mana to get basicly the same kind of effect, a new top 3 cards. Sensei's devining top is amazing, but you need to be able to shuffle and look at will. With ponder not only do I not have to screw my manabase, but I also kantrip for one mana as well as a shuffle. I consider that tons better then fofing most of the time. Yes fof is much more powerfull but the 4cc slots are very precious and u want to mantain that solid curve this deck deffinately has.
This version of landstill is much more aggressive then most others in the red zone. The addition of vendillion and the way you use the combat step against other aggro control decks like dreadstill and ta are much different then that of speedstill or 4c landstill. I simply like the approach alot more because it keeps my opponent guessing.
Once again I do agree with most of what your saying but I can't help but think that anything that runs blue that doesn't use ponder as menindian says is really lacking. Either your ripping apart your manabase with fetches, or your being conservative and not getting taken down by stifle/ wasteland. I'd rather take the safe efficient approach then the difficult one.
This version is more dedicated to manipulating your top 3 consistently in order to smooth out your draws and not necesarily shape your hand. The reason for this is to not get ripped apart by decks running 8duress 4 hymn. Those decks loose to this deck because of the consistent manipulation and the ability to just continue dropping lands and playing spells until I get a large enough manabase to drop humility or vendillion or something more deadly. It's quite efficient and I suggest you try it. Once again im not knocking fof because its deffinately a game ender, but running two along with 5 other four drops plus force pluse the tutors is a bit much to handle sometimes without the likes of consistent shuffling and answers being brough up with kantrips. Heart of the cards bro. Also I won almost every single game on the back of elspeth- true story.
All in all I used kantrips the same way thresh does, but I just cast bigger threats that are universal threats to the metagame as most landstill does. I just do it more efficiently without sacrificing my long game or my big spells in order to so it.
Pullus per Mucro
Sensei's divining top is indeed amazing in landstill. I personally would rather run top over the ponder. Of course, their utility functions is almost exactly identical. But I think top is considerably better then ponder is especially when supplemented with standstill. You can manipulate your library underneath a standstill which seems like an obvious advantage over ponder regarding to standstill. Standstill gets incrementally stronger the more lands you play and top can fix your draws in such a way where you can draw more lands underneath a standstill. I have won a few landstill mirrors that way when I would have top and standstill in play simultaneously. Having both cards in play can actually get you the cards you need in the mirror like decree and dustbowl. While making both cards incrementally more efficient and decisive.
Of course, landstill lists with ponders does seem more aggressive then traditional lists but that doesn't mean that they play completely differently. Both variants still have the same overall gameplan by taking control of the game and winning the late game. Elspeth is a brilliant late game finisher but I don't think it's that much faster then decree of justice. Sure Elspeth can be great against the mirror, aggro-control, and aggro but it doesn't really change the fact that its a late game card. As for Clique, I look at Vendellion Clique as a expensive counterspell that doesn't really help you in your bad matchups. While, only helping you in your good matchups that you should be winning anyway regardless of having Vendellion Clique or not.
As for decks with discard I have won a ton of games since spell snare, force of will, and counterspell makes discard obsolete. Brainstorm finds you what you need too and running four of them is plenty against the likes of the rock and black suicide decks(referring to my actual testing experience).
It's definitely not a requirement at least in my opinion that Landstill obsolutely needs card manipulation and shuffling effects to produce a favorable outcome at least not excessively anyway. Especially considering landstill already runs cards like FoF and standstill which fills in the gap of the lack of library manipulation and card shuffling.
You also don't really need to be conservative with your land drops especially playing with a deck like landstill. Landstill usually runs plenty of lands and with cards like E.dragon and basic lands at your disposal running into wastelands and stifles isn't a large concern at all.
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Spell Snare
3 Vindicate
4 Standstill
3 Innocent Blood
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantaku Monastary
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
2 Island
3 Krosan Grip
3 Chill
2 Energy Flux
3 Arcane Labrotory
Before I go about giving you feedback. I have several questions to ask.
1. Have you even tested the deck beforehand?
2. How does this deck play out against the likes of goblins, merfolks, and elves? Which seemed like about half of the field at GP Chicago.
3. Why did you decide to play this over something like UWb Landstill?
4. Is five fetchlands really enough for 4 color landstill? I would encourage to run like 8 fetchlands even though I ran a 4c landstill to some success with just 7 blue fetches.
5. How does this deck do against the likes of tempo aggro-control variants such as UGr Canadian Threshold and Team America?
6. How is your Counterbalance Aggro-Control matchup?
7. How is your Storm Combo matchup?
Those are some points to take into account when designing a competitive legacy deck.
Sorry if I sounded harsh but I like to encourage people to post more detailed and intelligent posts on here especially since this is my thread. But if you really want quick feedback you can send me your list through private messaging.
Sorry if this comes out as harsh, I'm just going to lay down the points as I see them, I've been playing 4c for a long time.
1. Your manabase is busted. 5 fetches and 8 colorless sources will absolutely not work, ever. Play all 8 fetches, it's just not negotiable. Drop either the wastelands or monasteries, probably wastelands since your only wincon is land.
2. Pernicious deed is the ONLY reason to play 4c. Run four. You want one in your opener and you'll probably have to cast a second before the game is completely stable. You can shuffle excess copies away with brainstorm and your 8 fetches.
3. You're running 3 fact or fiction, which means you want at least 1 life from the loam. Cut a crucible for it. Loam makes fact or fiction more powerful because it makes creating piles more difficult for the opponent and it allows you to dump piles with manlands/wastes even if you need them.
4. Innocent Blood- this card is not necessarily a bad choice but could probably be better used as either a solid wincondition (I run tombstalker but something like jace beleren or call the skybreaker would work too) or something that makes standstill better (keep the wasteland or maybe try decree of justice)
Hope that helps.
This is my current list for reference, not like I'm a pro or anything but it works perdy good.
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 tundra
1 island
4 mishra's factory
1 nantuko monastery
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare
4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
3 diabolic edict
1 life from the loam
2 tombstalker
:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver