one other quick thought, if your not running academy ruins why bother with engineered explosives if you are running deed? just to try and get 2 more deed effects? i dont understand
one other quick thought, if your not running academy ruins why bother with engineered explosives if you are running deed? just to try and get 2 more deed effects? i dont understand
Extra non-targeted removal. Kills planewalkers like goddamn elspeth. Also improves game one against dredge and empty the warrens decks. And is good against mox/chalice.dec. I'm sure there's more, but that's just off the top of my head. Six 'sweepers' seems to be the proven standard.
Well thankyou guys for the imput it is greatly appreciated, I have play tested this deck before, except I played disenchant instead of vindicate, I like vindicate more, I have never played against merfolk but I have played elves, and goblins and i do very well against them being aggro only i Think it does pretty decent against combo, and thats why I have the sideboard to hate on any combo deck, And I really do agree with the fetchs because of the color, I choice to do what I did because I prefer to have the lands themselves as opposed to the fetches which if I did up it I would probably go to like 6-7 I have run into to many games where it just doesnt love me if I dont have the dual land. I had not thought about running the life from the loam it gives another good reason to be running green besides the deed (if it wasnt reason enough) I am always just afraid of dredging the card I need or no being able to find the crucible if its a 1 of, thought about running academy ruins to just to help with getting back the crucible. I really like wasteland but I do agree there just isn't enough room for it, maybe a one of with crucible/ loam lock and Idk why everyone plays diabloic edict, or chainers edict over innocent blood, seems far cheaper and more effective. this build was from a few months ago and I dont really know the match ups against new decks from GP chicago, I know i have a little rough time against lands I have to hit the right cards, and against counterbalance/aggro I have vindicate and some other cards, I think that comes down to play skill I could be wrong. but I greatly appreciate the ideas thats why I posted
No problem and glad you played the deck beforehand too.
Goblins looks like a pretty bad matchup for you though despite of you having several outs for a first turn Goblin Lackey. Not to mention, Wasteland and Rishadan Port can be pretty hard to get around especially since the goblin player can cut you off of a certain color and then take you out in the attack phase.
A couple of things about the sideboard:
a. I personally prefer blue blast over chill as well even though chill can be pretty good if they don't already have a Aether vial or an goblin warchief out. I would even argue for the inclusion of engineered plague as well.
b. I question energy flux considering you already have vindicate and pernicious deed for affinity anyway.
c. Arcane Laboratory is probably too slow for the likes of ANT. Ad Nauseam makes tendrils combo much faster and more resilient so I suggest replacing Arcane Laboratory with orim's chant/meddling mage instead.
As for Diabolic edict, it is usually played over innocent blood because it's an instant which is relevant when you want to tap out to cast a early game standstill.
As for counterbalance, you also have pernicious deed and krosan grip for it as well.
Just a small update from previous list. Wanted to give you all a better perspective on how I am thinking when I am tweaking ect.
[B]Land:[/B]22
4x Flooded
4x Tundra
3x Island
3x Plains
3x Mishra
1x Tolaria West
1x Dust Bowl
1x Academy Ruins
1x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
[B]Permission:[/B]10
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare
2x Vendillion Clique
[B]Draw:[/B]10
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Top
1x Fof
[B]Removal:[/B]10
4x Swords
3x EE
2x Wrath
1x Humility
[B]Utility:[/B]4
2x Relic
2x Wish
[B]Win:[/B]9
[COLOR=Blue]3x Mishra[/COLOR]
2x Decree
[COLOR=Blue]2x Vendillion[/COLOR]
2x Elspeth
[B]Sb:[/B]
[COLOR=Magenta]1x Return 2 Dust
1x Extirpate
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Enlightened tutor
1x Path to Exile
1x Hydroblast
1x Blue Elemental Blast[/COLOR]
[COLOR=Lime]1x Runed Halo
1x COP: Green
1x Relic of progenitus[/COLOR]
2x Ajani Goldmane
3x Engineered plague
* Blue is For cards have multiple angle uses. They are in blue to be not counted again.
* Pink is for wish targets for cunning wish.
*Green is for utility slots in the sb: These slots fill in for MM to make your other more aggresive matchups easier for now. All testing has led to this being the correct placement, but I could very well be wrong.
Overall:
-1 Ponder
+1 Spell Snare
* Counter top is getting out of control. It's being played en-force at every even I play in.
There are other various reasons, but when it comes down to it Spell Snare fits the slot better then brainstorm number 8
Is it me or Landstill simply dies to Moon Effects? My opponent is a good Dragonstompy player and he runs a list with three Trinisphere, 4 Magus, 3 Blood Moon all MD, together with Chalice @1. The only games that I've won are: either I went first so Spell Snare stopped Chalice@1, and I FOWed all his moon effects or fetched for enough basics after that. Even with pure UW Landstill, I run into too much colorless. My manabase was:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island (for EE @3 against Moon effects)
4 Islands
2 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
and my list was
INTUITION UW LANDSTILL Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island (for EE @3 against Moon effects)
4 Islands
2 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
Draws/Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Diving Top (this is so good with Standstill)
4 Standstill
2 Intuition
Permission:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
Board control
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth
1 Decree of Justice (not liking this too much)
1 Humility
1 Wrath of God
2 Vedalken Shackles (Always been a fan of these in any form of blue control deck. It is another good win-condition. A little inconsistent with the manabase against wastelands/moon in my meta, great with Intuition tutoring)
1 Crucible of Worlds
I play my own variant, with Intuition for Academy+Crucible+Wasteland/Shackles lock. Seems weak sometimes. I really want to green for LftL. I might play some sort of UWg or UWbg Landstill with LftL and Intuition, but untill I solve the colorless issue, or effects under Moon, I don't know if I'll pick up this deck for my metagame.
What's the common Wishtarget for Wishstill? Enlightened tutor to search up your lock? Why not run 2-3 Enlightened Tutor? Is there too much card disadvantage with Enlightened Tutor?
I thought I would have a bad MU against black discard, but apparently, spell snare, STP, Brainstorm does so much against them, and Standstill refills your hand without any trouble.
If anyone can answer my questions about Landstill's MU and weaknesses, and how to improve on the games against chalice/3sphere/Moon.dec, I'd really appreciate it. I think I found my favorite deck after MUC. UW Landstill is an edge more powerful than MUC due to the white splash.
2 and 3 color should roll over moon effects. It's really not that bad. Maindeck you have force of will, swords for magus and remember you can use the red off a non-basic to cast engineered explosives for three. Post board you have at least four blasts too, so it's really not that bad. All moon decks are just creature decks, if you can keep moon in check then they don't have a chance.
I tried the intuition engine for a while. I realized that you're better off with fact or fiction or wish, intuition is too clunky and requires too much setup in legacy, I don't even like ITF but they utilize it to it's fullest.
As always, landstill's weaknesses are that it's slow to stabalize and very mana hungry, but you trade that for the most bomb-heavy deck in the format that has an answer to everything, if you can find it. Peace.
3duece: Don't forget that if you use wish you also have access to blast as well in the sb preboard for the d stompy matchup.
as for crz87:
If you seriously are having problems with the d stompy, here are your problems:
*Bad mana base. Too often Landstill pilots trade stability for fetches or additional utility. I would suggest if your running 3c anything it should look something like this.
4flooded
4tundra
3island
3plains
3 mishra
1 other dual collored land scrubland or savannah
1 opposing color dual land that matches flooded, trop or underground sea
then its up to you. You can either go the cheezy utility route as I go:
1 ruins
1 dust bowl
1 tolaria west
or more traditional
3 wasteland
Thats a base for a very light 3rd splash. It also is a base thats only 22 lands, so you will want to run draw heavy aka 2 top 4 brainstorm 3 ponder 4 brainstorm ect.
If you choose to go standard then you should probobly run 23 lands adding the color fetch your going windswept heath or polluted delta x1, but realisticly landstill thrives on its card advantage and unstoppable gas tank. If you play the right manipulation you'll see your lands and 22 wont hurt you in the least.
As for the Dragon stompy matchup its seriously not that tough. Remember these things:
Challice @ 1 hurts you more then blood moon, especially post board. Spell snare is not a card you can side out. EE gets rid of challice so if you dont have snare but you have force with blue and ee, then dont worry about forcing the challice, but remember to stop the trini. You can deal with blood moon as long as you get an island and a plains in play. If they land trini blood moon, your 3rd color is red so ee for 3 is still an option.
Their real threats against you are going to be challice, and possibly akroma if they run it "most only run 1 if they run any." Also pit dragon isn't very sexy against you, as you run wrath hopefull humility, and swords.
All in all I gaurentee you if you run my list you'll stomp dragon stompy "pun intended" every time you play it.
-Note to everyone. My list is fairing much better since I chose to run the fourth snare instead of the third ponder. The numbers are simply better, and I believe the correct choice was made.
Thanks mossivo for the advice. I've been playing right, and countering Trinisphere and Chalice more than moon effects. I guess it's just that my Stompy friend is super lucky while I'm unlucky lol. He always draws the nuts i.e. draws no business but Chalice + moon + 3Sphere in the first 2 turns.
I usually play right, fetching basic plains for STP against Magus and Island for BS, and counter 3sphere. My opponent however is really good and knows that EE is the only way out for me and he plays such that my mana is tied down to only 2 possible color. I'm just unlucky I can never fetch for 2 basics in the games I play. It shouldn't be a problem and I'll get more used to playing the deck. I'm tempted to play Wishstill. I like how the deck is more flexible, and wishing for FoF is better than drawing FoF to me. I'm a fan of tutors rather than random draws. Intuition has simply not worked out for me.
I'm just really annoyed by the colorless problem in UW landstill. I'm tempted to drop down to 3 Factories and I think that's the right decision. I'll be splashing black for the Wish board.
Lastly, any comments on the combo matchup? Seems that you have to at least draw FOW and get meddling mage online, even then, I'm not sure if it's enough to stop the speed of ANT. Perhaps UWb has a much better MU with the Extirpates sideboarded in.
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I like designing decks and I am primarily a control player. Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
In my experience chalice at 0 then at 1 stops ANT in it's tracks.
-Heres me wishing I could draw like you every game
as for ant it really comes down to aggro_control for you. Can you apply enough pressure on them and disrupt their plans at the same time. Meddling mage to me simply is not enough, and unless you run CB out of the board or maindeck it simply is 50-50. Its difficult for them to win and its difficult for you to predict so bottom line if your that worried about it run runed halo and mages. Set mage to orims chant and your second at tendrills, make sure to spell snare wish and remove led/ petals with ee as you see them, apply pressure with mm vendillion, mishra's and what little tokens you do see. also side in ajani as it can instantly win you games in a full round. that speaks wonders.
In all honesty unless you see more then a single copy in your 20-50 mans I wouldn't worry about it. Your not going to play against it twice, and even if you do lose its not worth beating yourself up over a particularly iffy matchup.
I personally side to strengthen my universal matchups, like tribal themes and random green or random utility spell.dec. It seems to work for me.
In my experience chalice at 0 then at 1 stops ANT in it's tracks.
I am pretty sure this would be an ideal scenario against storm combo. But then again so would dropping two chrome moxes, counterbalance, blue fetchland and sensei's divining top on the first or second turn. Seriously though, I doubt an high caliber combo player would just walk right into a chalice set at 0 and 1. Even if your able to pull it off they have plenty of ways to breakthrough and then combo off.
That said, I currently run 3-4 orim's chants in the board against ANT and backing chants up with countermagic helps a reasonable deal.
Well, EE@3's useful as heck outside of dealing with moon effects (I ran 1 trop in UW for that), but Benie's right, if you have island, plains in play hitting moon effects wont be too hard since you just use the red mana they give you.
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I am pretty sure this would be an ideal scenario against storm combo. But then again so would dropping two chrome moxes, counterbalance, blue fetchland and sensei's divining top on the first or second turn. Seriously though, I doubt an high caliber combo player would just walk right into a chalice set at 0 and 1. Even if your able to pull it off they have plenty of ways to breakthrough and then combo off.
That said, I currently run 3-4 orim's chants in the board against ANT and backing chants up with countermagic helps a reasonable deal.
Well yes, obviously. I should have been more clear. A chalice at 0 slows storm down an enormous amount, I'd say at least two turns. That puts them going off around turn 4-5 maybe, correct? That's plenty of time to draw and filter, get access to countermagic (at least 2 pieces sounds reasonable) and hey, maybe even a second chalice.
That said, chant isn't too shabby either, I honestly didn't really consider it. I kind of like the 'set it and forget it' (at least for a couple of turns) functionality of chalice, but I'll try some chants in the board too.
Another sideboard question: Are you guys happy with engineered plague? I realize that it wrecks goblins, but merfolk is the big tribal deck now and with 8 lords plague seems more like a minor setback than an answer. What are other good options for merfolk? More humility and wrath? Circle of protection: blue (mostly joking)? What opinions do you kind folks have regarding this issue?
Here's my recent list that has a good success against many decks, namely Thresh, and a fair MU against Stax (so many White Stax players on MWS nowadays and Stax is perhaps easily the worst MU for Landstill besides ANT).
The thing I love about this list, despite being unstable in 4 colors, Green is really there just for LftL. So it's not as mana hungry as ITF, and therefore can still incorporate the Landstill pieces (Standstill, Factories, Waste). It's not needed in the deck, but against decks without GY hate, it helps a lot grabbing Ruins/Wasteland/EE/Shackles. Intuition also grabs you the needed pieces in a tight game, and it is especially good with an ITF-ish recursion. The recursion isn't crucial in the game and you can side out Intuition + Loam and board in Runed Halos, FoF to screw your opponent's boarding plans.
I'm a big fan of Cunning Wish simply because I like the ability to be flexible. Wishing into Pulse of the Field and Return to Dust is usually what I do, and Pulse gives Landstill a huge boost from the early game it suffers. If Landstill survives the mid-game, we're pretty much going to be winning but it's about getting to the mid-game that's hard, and Wishing into Pulse is so crucial. Not to mention, Wish gets the Extirpate against Loam.dec and Rebuild, Return to Dust against Stax, and FoF for mid-game draws.
SDT is a must in this deck, at least in my version. SDT is simply amazing with Standstill, and I think that all LS lists should start incorporating at least 3 of in the deck.
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I like designing decks and I am primarily a control player. Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
I like a permanent answer better. My normal boarding goes something like 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Runed Halo 1 or 2 Ajani Goldmane. Just throwing as much hate out as possible... But it's preference probably and a meta-call( I have more uses for Runed Halo outside combo than Chant.)
I used to just board in 4 mages but then I tested out 3 Orim's chant and 1 counterspell in the board and it works just as good. While counterspell in the board can be versatile against a whole slew of other matchups as well. Not saying that Ajani, R. Halo, and mages are bad though considering they all obviously have their uses.
I am pretty sure this would be an ideal scenario against storm combo. But then again so would dropping two chrome moxes, counterbalance, blue fetchland and sensei's divining top on the first or second turn. Seriously though, I doubt an high caliber combo player would just walk right into a chalice set at 0 and 1. Even if your able to pull it off they have plenty of ways to breakthrough and then combo off.
I think your right on that a combo player wont willingly go off like that, but I also think your wrong because they can only play around it by attempting to hardcast through those means. This is going to give the landstill player enough time to build up an awesome team of awesome :). Yes Awesome.
Anyways Challice at 0 and 1 is GG for Ant preboard unless of course they draw their lands and more expensive drops, but by then you should have a solid enough control on the game to win/ mantain control of the games current state. Your window doesnt close is all im saying.
That said, I currently run 3-4 orim's chants in the board against ANT and backing chants up with countermagic helps a reasonable deal.
I don't think adding chant or challice is the direction Landstill should be taking unless the meta is full of combo.
[quote=Benie Bederios;/comments/4103741]I like a permanent answer better. My normal boarding goes something like 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Runed Halo 1 or 2 Ajani Goldmane. Just throwing as much hate out as possible... But it's preference probably and a meta-call( I have more uses for Runed Halo outside combo than Chant.)
This is ALOT of combo hate as well. Though runed halo at 3 slots is just too much as their are infinate other cards that arn't krosan grippable, I just think your overextending your board by atleast 2 slots maybe more.
That said, chant isn't too shabby either, I honestly didn't really consider it. I kind of like the 'set it and forget it' (at least for a couple of turns) functionality of chalice, but I'll try some chants in the board too.
Don't consider chant unless your going for a wishboard approach, in which case it might be ok if your wishboard is huge. which from the look of your future posts it is.
Another sideboard question: Are you guys happy with engineered plague?
There are others to but honestly im exhausted so this is what you get :).
EP is replacable but in a meta of Tribal decks especially with merfolk doing as well as it is, if your not running humility run 4 ep, if you are run the count your running of humility and minus that against 4, thats the number you should be running of EP. Ep is insane even if you dont kill **** on the initial lay. It greatly reduces common power and it stops merfolk from getting nuts without their lords. Combined with STP, EE, WRATH that should simply be enough.
Here's my recent list that has a good success against many decks, namely Thresh, and a fair MU against Stax (so many White Stax players on MWS nowadays and Stax is perhaps easily the worst MU for Landstill besides ANT).
The thing I love about this list, despite being unstable in 4 colors, Green is really there just for LftL. So it's not as mana hungry as ITF, and therefore can still incorporate the Landstill pieces (Standstill, Factories, Waste). It's not needed in the deck, but against decks without GY hate, it helps a lot grabbing Ruins/Wasteland/EE/Shackles. Intuition also grabs you the needed pieces in a tight game, and it is especially good with an ITF-ish recursion. The recursion isn't crucial in the game and you can side out Intuition + Loam and board in Runed Halos, FoF to screw your opponent's boarding plans.
I'm a big fan of Cunning Wish simply because I like the ability to be flexible. Wishing into Pulse of the Field and Return to Dust is usually what I do, and Pulse gives Landstill a huge boost from the early game it suffers. If Landstill survives the mid-game, we're pretty much going to be winning but it's about getting to the mid-game that's hard, and Wishing into Pulse is so crucial. Not to mention, Wish gets the Extirpate against Loam.dec and Rebuild, Return to Dust against Stax, and FoF for mid-game draws.
SDT is a must in this deck, at least in my version. SDT is simply amazing with Standstill, and I think that all LS lists should start incorporating at least 3 of in the deck.
Your wish board is waay too big for someone whos playing 4c. Your simply not going to be able to wish for enough answers to deal with some decks in time.
I think your right on that a combo player wont willingly go off like that, but I also think your wrong because they can only play around it by attempting to hardcast through those means. This is going to give the landstill player enough time to build up an awesome team of awesome :). Yes Awesome.
Anyways Challice at 0 and 1 is GG for Ant preboard unless of course they draw their lands and more expensive drops, but by then you should have a solid enough control on the game to win/ mantain control of the games current state. Your window doesnt close is all im saying.
I don't think adding chant or challice is the direction Landstill should be taking unless the meta is full of combo.
I was more so talking about storm combo decks in general. Like for example: against Emidln's DD FT, chalice set at 0 and 1 doesn't really do anything to the likes of his deck. But that's probably because he has plenty of hate and still has plenty of time to win whenever he sees fit. Emidln's deck definitely plays differently from other storm combo since the deck can take control of the game state and then win instanteously.
@Benie: Well I wasn't really trying to argue with you on what boarding tech is better but if runed halo and meddling mages work for you then it wouldn't make much sense to change it. I just go by on what has worked in testing so far and that's about it. Not to mention, I have also played 4 Mages and 3 Runed Halos in the board for awhile but decided to switch to something else because it just wasn't working for me in testing.
Also, considering your main deck can handle pretty much anything to a degree. Designing a general sideboard should be good enough especially for a big event. As for counterspell, I choose to one run in the board just in case the third one isn't enough in some matchups. I don't really consider counterspell as a wrecking card either but as long as it's fulfilling it's purpose I don't think it matters.
I run a general sideboard myself and since my maindeck can handle a whole slew of situations it's sensible to board accordingly.
Hey everyone I just had a few questions about the build of Landstill. Firstly I believe when I played this deck in Vintage instead of Wrath it used Nevinyrral's Disk" target="blank">Nevinyrral's Disk which is able to take care of so many problem artifacts/enchantments as well as creatures. I always thought that you wanted to have a clear board so your man lands could do their job.
Secondly I haven't heard anyone mention a red splash. It seems like every other color has been discussed but red but look at some of the card options you'll have if you splash it:
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Helix
Fire/Ice
I was wondering if this extra damage along with the board sweeping ability of Disk might make this deck a little fast and a little more resilliant (Since Bolt/Helix can work on early creatures if necessary). I was thinking a deck along the lines of:
4 Swords To Plowshares 4 Nivenyrral's Disk 2 Decree of Justice 4 Standstill 3 Brainstorm 2 Fact or Fiction 4 Coutnerspell 4 Force of Will 4 Lightning Bolt 3 Lightning Helix
Anyone have any comments on Disk vs. Wrath and the red splash? Thanks
Hey everyone I just had a few questions about the build of Landstill. Firstly I believe when I played this deck in Vintage instead of Wrath it used Nevinyrral's Disk" target="blank">Nevinyrral's Disk which is able to take care of so many problem artifacts/enchantments as well as creatures. I always thought that you wanted to have a clear board so your man lands could do their job.
Secondly I haven't heard anyone mention a red splash. It seems like every other color has been discussed but red but look at some of the card options you'll have if you splash it:
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Helix
Fire/Ice
I was wondering if this extra damage along with the board sweeping ability of Disk might make this deck a little fast and a little more resilliant (Since Bolt/Helix can work on early creatures if necessary). I was thinking a deck along the lines of:
4 Swords To Plowshares 4 Nivenyrral's Disk 2 Decree of Justice 4 Standstill 3 Brainstorm 2 Fact or Fiction 4 Coutnerspell 4 Force of Will 4 Lightning Bolt 3 Lightning Helix
Anyone have any comments on Disk vs. Wrath and the red splash? Thanks
Yes, I remember Uwr Landstill was a very popular choice back in Legacy of 2005. I've had alot of success with Uwr landstill back then when UG madness and goblins were some of the deck to beats in the format. Those were the good old days. Not to mention, bringing in red elemental blasts and pyroblasts for the solidarity matchup was pretty awesome. There wasn't a deck that Uwr Landstill couldn't beat back in those days.
Your deck looks like a stock 2005 UWr landstill list but instead of lightning helix it was fire//ice.
Unfortunately in the modern Legacy environment, I think Tarmogoyf pretty much obsoleted burn as a removal spell choice for landstill. Not to mention, Counterbalance makes things even worse for Landstill decks that aren't prepared to face the card. If you could find a time machine to travel back to 2005 or before that I'd say your list would do rather well in Legacy. Now I think if they actually banned tarmogoyf and counterbalance I'd say Uwr Landstill would once again be a solid choice. But that's pretty much wishful thinking right there.
Yes, I remember Uwr Landstill was a very popular choice back in Legacy of 2005. I've had alot of success with Uwr landstill back then when UG madness and goblins were some of the deck to beats in the format. Those were the good old days. Not to mention, bringing in red elemental blasts and pyroblasts for the solidarity matchup was pretty awesome. There wasn't a deck that Uwr Landstill couldn't beat back in those days.
Your deck looks like a stock 2005 UWr landstill list but instead of lightning helix it was fire//ice.
Unfortunately in the modern Legacy environment, I think Tarmogoyf pretty much obsoleted burn as a removal spell choice for landstill. Not to mention, Counterbalance makes things even worse for Landstill decks that aren't prepared to face the card. If you could find a time machine to travel back to 2005 or before that I'd say your list would do rather well in Legacy. Now I think if they actually banned tarmogoyf and counterbalance I'd say Uwr Landstill would once again be a solid choice. But that's pretty much wishful thinking right there.
I would like your imput on the Wrath of God Vs. Nivenyrral's Disk card choice. It seems like while Disk is a turn slower being able to destroy artifacts (Vial, Top etc) and enchantments (Counterbalance) would be a huge benefit. Also since it can be sacrificed at any time it allows instant speed mass removal that you can sit on if need be. It can be stopped by Stifle effects but again it's a trade off for the other types of cards this destroys. Any thoughts on that choice?
I would like your imput on the Wrath of God Vs. Nivenyrral's Disk card choice. It seems like while Disk is a turn slower being able to destroy artifacts (Vial, Top etc) and enchantments (Counterbalance) would be a huge benefit. Also since it can be sacrificed at any time it allows instant speed mass removal that you can sit on if need be. It can be stopped by Stifle effects but again it's a trade off for the other types of cards this destroys. Any thoughts on that choice?
It can also be kgripped, which is a big issue not only with Disk but with Deed in other Landstill builds.
Ohs nos! Basic lands? Well, it's two colors, so not too much splashing needs to occur. One Savannah is around to allow Engineered Explosives to take out 3cc. It can be fetched by Eternal Dragon or the Flooded Strand.
I think Mutavault is a lot better than Faerie Conclave due to the 2 toughness (DIE LACKEY DIE!), interactivity with Mishra's Factory, and most importantly, it doesn't come into play tapped.
I originally ran 2 Decree of Justice. But yeah, replaced those with 4 Path to Exile. I figure that if Uwr Landstill can run 4 Lightning Bolt and 4 Swords to Plowshares, why not let UW run 8 spot removal too?
Extra non-targeted removal. Kills planewalkers like goddamn elspeth. Also improves game one against dredge and empty the warrens decks. And is good against mox/chalice.dec. I'm sure there's more, but that's just off the top of my head. Six 'sweepers' seems to be the proven standard.
:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver
No problem and glad you played the deck beforehand too.
Goblins looks like a pretty bad matchup for you though despite of you having several outs for a first turn Goblin Lackey. Not to mention, Wasteland and Rishadan Port can be pretty hard to get around especially since the goblin player can cut you off of a certain color and then take you out in the attack phase.
A couple of things about the sideboard:
a. I personally prefer blue blast over chill as well even though chill can be pretty good if they don't already have a Aether vial or an goblin warchief out. I would even argue for the inclusion of engineered plague as well.
b. I question energy flux considering you already have vindicate and pernicious deed for affinity anyway.
c. Arcane Laboratory is probably too slow for the likes of ANT. Ad Nauseam makes tendrils combo much faster and more resilient so I suggest replacing Arcane Laboratory with orim's chant/meddling mage instead.
As for Diabolic edict, it is usually played over innocent blood because it's an instant which is relevant when you want to tap out to cast a early game standstill.
As for counterbalance, you also have pernicious deed and krosan grip for it as well.
Overall:
-1 Ponder
+1 Spell Snare
* Counter top is getting out of control. It's being played en-force at every even I play in.
There are other various reasons, but when it comes down to it Spell Snare fits the slot better then brainstorm number 8
Pullus per Mucro
Is it me or Landstill simply dies to Moon Effects? My opponent is a good Dragonstompy player and he runs a list with three Trinisphere, 4 Magus, 3 Blood Moon all MD, together with Chalice @1. The only games that I've won are: either I went first so Spell Snare stopped Chalice@1, and I FOWed all his moon effects or fetched for enough basics after that. Even with pure UW Landstill, I run into too much colorless. My manabase was:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island (for EE @3 against Moon effects)
4 Islands
2 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
and my list was
INTUITION UW LANDSTILL
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island (for EE @3 against Moon effects)
4 Islands
2 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
Draws/Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Diving Top (this is so good with Standstill)
4 Standstill
2 Intuition
Permission:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
Board control
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth
1 Decree of Justice (not liking this too much)
1 Humility
1 Wrath of God
2 Vedalken Shackles (Always been a fan of these in any form of blue control deck. It is another good win-condition. A little inconsistent with the manabase against wastelands/moon in my meta, great with Intuition tutoring)
1 Crucible of Worlds
I play my own variant, with Intuition for Academy+Crucible+Wasteland/Shackles lock. Seems weak sometimes. I really want to green for LftL. I might play some sort of UWg or UWbg Landstill with LftL and Intuition, but untill I solve the colorless issue, or effects under Moon, I don't know if I'll pick up this deck for my metagame.
What's the common Wishtarget for Wishstill? Enlightened tutor to search up your lock? Why not run 2-3 Enlightened Tutor? Is there too much card disadvantage with Enlightened Tutor?
I thought I would have a bad MU against black discard, but apparently, spell snare, STP, Brainstorm does so much against them, and Standstill refills your hand without any trouble.
If anyone can answer my questions about Landstill's MU and weaknesses, and how to improve on the games against chalice/3sphere/Moon.dec, I'd really appreciate it. I think I found my favorite deck after MUC. UW Landstill is an edge more powerful than MUC due to the white splash.
Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
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Popular wish targets are
return to dust
pulse of the fields
enlightened tutor
path to exile
I tried the intuition engine for a while. I realized that you're better off with fact or fiction or wish, intuition is too clunky and requires too much setup in legacy, I don't even like ITF but they utilize it to it's fullest.
As always, landstill's weaknesses are that it's slow to stabalize and very mana hungry, but you trade that for the most bomb-heavy deck in the format that has an answer to everything, if you can find it. Peace.
:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver
as for crz87:
If you seriously are having problems with the d stompy, here are your problems:
*Bad mana base. Too often Landstill pilots trade stability for fetches or additional utility. I would suggest if your running 3c anything it should look something like this.
4flooded
4tundra
3island
3plains
3 mishra
1 other dual collored land scrubland or savannah
1 opposing color dual land that matches flooded, trop or underground sea
then its up to you. You can either go the cheezy utility route as I go:
1 ruins
1 dust bowl
1 tolaria west
or more traditional
3 wasteland
Thats a base for a very light 3rd splash. It also is a base thats only 22 lands, so you will want to run draw heavy aka 2 top 4 brainstorm 3 ponder 4 brainstorm ect.
If you choose to go standard then you should probobly run 23 lands adding the color fetch your going windswept heath or polluted delta x1, but realisticly landstill thrives on its card advantage and unstoppable gas tank. If you play the right manipulation you'll see your lands and 22 wont hurt you in the least.
As for the Dragon stompy matchup its seriously not that tough. Remember these things:
Challice @ 1 hurts you more then blood moon, especially post board. Spell snare is not a card you can side out. EE gets rid of challice so if you dont have snare but you have force with blue and ee, then dont worry about forcing the challice, but remember to stop the trini. You can deal with blood moon as long as you get an island and a plains in play. If they land trini blood moon, your 3rd color is red so ee for 3 is still an option.
Their real threats against you are going to be challice, and possibly akroma if they run it "most only run 1 if they run any." Also pit dragon isn't very sexy against you, as you run wrath hopefull humility, and swords.
All in all I gaurentee you if you run my list you'll stomp dragon stompy "pun intended" every time you play it.
-Note to everyone. My list is fairing much better since I chose to run the fourth snare instead of the third ponder. The numbers are simply better, and I believe the correct choice was made.
Pullus per Mucro
I usually play right, fetching basic plains for STP against Magus and Island for BS, and counter 3sphere. My opponent however is really good and knows that EE is the only way out for me and he plays such that my mana is tied down to only 2 possible color. I'm just unlucky I can never fetch for 2 basics in the games I play. It shouldn't be a problem and I'll get more used to playing the deck. I'm tempted to play Wishstill. I like how the deck is more flexible, and wishing for FoF is better than drawing FoF to me. I'm a fan of tutors rather than random draws. Intuition has simply not worked out for me.
I'm just really annoyed by the colorless problem in UW landstill. I'm tempted to drop down to 3 Factories and I think that's the right decision. I'll be splashing black for the Wish board.
Lastly, any comments on the combo matchup? Seems that you have to at least draw FOW and get meddling mage online, even then, I'm not sure if it's enough to stop the speed of ANT. Perhaps UWb has a much better MU with the Extirpates sideboarded in.
Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
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:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver
-Heres me wishing I could draw like you every game
as for ant it really comes down to aggro_control for you. Can you apply enough pressure on them and disrupt their plans at the same time. Meddling mage to me simply is not enough, and unless you run CB out of the board or maindeck it simply is 50-50. Its difficult for them to win and its difficult for you to predict so bottom line if your that worried about it run runed halo and mages. Set mage to orims chant and your second at tendrills, make sure to spell snare wish and remove led/ petals with ee as you see them, apply pressure with mm vendillion, mishra's and what little tokens you do see. also side in ajani as it can instantly win you games in a full round. that speaks wonders.
In all honesty unless you see more then a single copy in your 20-50 mans I wouldn't worry about it. Your not going to play against it twice, and even if you do lose its not worth beating yourself up over a particularly iffy matchup.
I personally side to strengthen my universal matchups, like tribal themes and random green or random utility spell.dec. It seems to work for me.
Pullus per Mucro
I am pretty sure this would be an ideal scenario against storm combo. But then again so would dropping two chrome moxes, counterbalance, blue fetchland and sensei's divining top on the first or second turn. Seriously though, I doubt an high caliber combo player would just walk right into a chalice set at 0 and 1. Even if your able to pull it off they have plenty of ways to breakthrough and then combo off.
That said, I currently run 3-4 orim's chants in the board against ANT and backing chants up with countermagic helps a reasonable deal.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK Level 4 Bad Guy
Well yes, obviously. I should have been more clear. A chalice at 0 slows storm down an enormous amount, I'd say at least two turns. That puts them going off around turn 4-5 maybe, correct? That's plenty of time to draw and filter, get access to countermagic (at least 2 pieces sounds reasonable) and hey, maybe even a second chalice.
That said, chant isn't too shabby either, I honestly didn't really consider it. I kind of like the 'set it and forget it' (at least for a couple of turns) functionality of chalice, but I'll try some chants in the board too.
Another sideboard question: Are you guys happy with engineered plague? I realize that it wrecks goblins, but merfolk is the big tribal deck now and with 8 lords plague seems more like a minor setback than an answer. What are other good options for merfolk? More humility and wrath? Circle of protection: blue (mostly joking)? What opinions do you kind folks have regarding this issue?
:symu::symw::symb: Vindicatestill
Vintage:
:symu::symb::symr::symw: sphinx slaver
UWbg Loam-still
1 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Plains
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
2 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
2 Cunning Wish
2 Elspeth
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles (could be 3rd EE, but Shackles are good with me, especially with Intuition/Ruin recursion)
1 Pulse of the Field (this card is so amazing in Wish-still)
1 Rebuild (against Stax and 3Sphere.dec)
2 Extirpate (against combo)
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Return to Dust (super good against Stax and 3Sphere.dic)
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Dismantling Blow (<3 this card in general, might be Krosan Grip, but I enjoy late-game card draws)
3 Meddling Mage (against combo)
1 Runed Halo (boarded in and "wished" via Enlightened Tutor)
The thing I love about this list, despite being unstable in 4 colors, Green is really there just for LftL. So it's not as mana hungry as ITF, and therefore can still incorporate the Landstill pieces (Standstill, Factories, Waste). It's not needed in the deck, but against decks without GY hate, it helps a lot grabbing Ruins/Wasteland/EE/Shackles. Intuition also grabs you the needed pieces in a tight game, and it is especially good with an ITF-ish recursion. The recursion isn't crucial in the game and you can side out Intuition + Loam and board in Runed Halos, FoF to screw your opponent's boarding plans.
I'm a big fan of Cunning Wish simply because I like the ability to be flexible. Wishing into Pulse of the Field and Return to Dust is usually what I do, and Pulse gives Landstill a huge boost from the early game it suffers. If Landstill survives the mid-game, we're pretty much going to be winning but it's about getting to the mid-game that's hard, and Wishing into Pulse is so crucial. Not to mention, Wish gets the Extirpate against Loam.dec and Rebuild, Return to Dust against Stax, and FoF for mid-game draws.
SDT is a must in this deck, at least in my version. SDT is simply amazing with Standstill, and I think that all LS lists should start incorporating at least 3 of in the deck.
Using Drain to fight Workshops is like using Exclude to fight Dark Confidant.
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I used to just board in 4 mages but then I tested out 3 Orim's chant and 1 counterspell in the board and it works just as good. While counterspell in the board can be versatile against a whole slew of other matchups as well. Not saying that Ajani, R. Halo, and mages are bad though considering they all obviously have their uses.
I think your right on that a combo player wont willingly go off like that, but I also think your wrong because they can only play around it by attempting to hardcast through those means. This is going to give the landstill player enough time to build up an awesome team of awesome :). Yes Awesome.
Anyways Challice at 0 and 1 is GG for Ant preboard unless of course they draw their lands and more expensive drops, but by then you should have a solid enough control on the game to win/ mantain control of the games current state. Your window doesnt close is all im saying.
I don't think adding chant or challice is the direction Landstill should be taking unless the meta is full of combo.
Pullus per Mucro
This is ALOT of combo hate as well. Though runed halo at 3 slots is just too much as their are infinate other cards that arn't krosan grippable, I just think your overextending your board by atleast 2 slots maybe more.
Pullus per Mucro
Don't consider chant unless your going for a wishboard approach, in which case it might be ok if your wishboard is huge. which from the look of your future posts it is.
Plague effects these decks:
Merfolk
Goblins
Elves
Faeries
Creight Belcher "goblin tokens frokm ETW"
Ichorid "Name Illusion and horror"
There are others to but honestly im exhausted so this is what you get :).
EP is replacable but in a meta of Tribal decks especially with merfolk doing as well as it is, if your not running humility run 4 ep, if you are run the count your running of humility and minus that against 4, thats the number you should be running of EP. Ep is insane even if you dont kill **** on the initial lay. It greatly reduces common power and it stops merfolk from getting nuts without their lords. Combined with STP, EE, WRATH that should simply be enough.
The idea is stop vial, stop lords, win game.
Pullus per Mucro
Your wish board is waay too big for someone whos playing 4c. Your simply not going to be able to wish for enough answers to deal with some decks in time.
Pullus per Mucro
I was more so talking about storm combo decks in general. Like for example: against Emidln's DD FT, chalice set at 0 and 1 doesn't really do anything to the likes of his deck. But that's probably because he has plenty of hate and still has plenty of time to win whenever he sees fit. Emidln's deck definitely plays differently from other storm combo since the deck can take control of the game state and then win instanteously.
@Benie: Well I wasn't really trying to argue with you on what boarding tech is better but if runed halo and meddling mages work for you then it wouldn't make much sense to change it. I just go by on what has worked in testing so far and that's about it. Not to mention, I have also played 4 Mages and 3 Runed Halos in the board for awhile but decided to switch to something else because it just wasn't working for me in testing.
Also, considering your main deck can handle pretty much anything to a degree. Designing a general sideboard should be good enough especially for a big event. As for counterspell, I choose to one run in the board just in case the third one isn't enough in some matchups. I don't really consider counterspell as a wrecking card either but as long as it's fulfilling it's purpose I don't think it matters.
I run a general sideboard myself and since my maindeck can handle a whole slew of situations it's sensible to board accordingly.
Secondly I haven't heard anyone mention a red splash. It seems like every other color has been discussed but red but look at some of the card options you'll have if you splash it:
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Helix
Fire/Ice
I was wondering if this extra damage along with the board sweeping ability of Disk might make this deck a little fast and a little more resilliant (Since Bolt/Helix can work on early creatures if necessary). I was thinking a deck along the lines of:
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plateau
2 Plains
2 Islands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Windsweapt Heath
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Nivenyrral's Disk
2 Decree of Justice
4 Standstill
3 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Coutnerspell
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
Anyone have any comments on Disk vs. Wrath and the red splash? Thanks
Yes, I remember Uwr Landstill was a very popular choice back in Legacy of 2005. I've had alot of success with Uwr landstill back then when UG madness and goblins were some of the deck to beats in the format. Those were the good old days. Not to mention, bringing in red elemental blasts and pyroblasts for the solidarity matchup was pretty awesome. There wasn't a deck that Uwr Landstill couldn't beat back in those days.
Your deck looks like a stock 2005 UWr landstill list but instead of lightning helix it was fire//ice.
Unfortunately in the modern Legacy environment, I think Tarmogoyf pretty much obsoleted burn as a removal spell choice for landstill. Not to mention, Counterbalance makes things even worse for Landstill decks that aren't prepared to face the card. If you could find a time machine to travel back to 2005 or before that I'd say your list would do rather well in Legacy. Now I think if they actually banned tarmogoyf and counterbalance I'd say Uwr Landstill would once again be a solid choice. But that's pretty much wishful thinking right there.
I would like your imput on the Wrath of God Vs. Nivenyrral's Disk card choice. It seems like while Disk is a turn slower being able to destroy artifacts (Vial, Top etc) and enchantments (Counterbalance) would be a huge benefit. Also since it can be sacrificed at any time it allows instant speed mass removal that you can sit on if need be. It can be stopped by Stifle effects but again it's a trade off for the other types of cards this destroys. Any thoughts on that choice?
It can also be kgripped, which is a big issue not only with Disk but with Deed in other Landstill builds.
Land (24)
4 Mishras Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Island
3 Plains
Creatures (2)
2 Eternal Dragon
Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Wrath of God
Permanents (8)
4 Standstill
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
Ohs nos! Basic lands? Well, it's two colors, so not too much splashing needs to occur. One Savannah is around to allow Engineered Explosives to take out 3cc. It can be fetched by Eternal Dragon or the Flooded Strand.
I think Mutavault is a lot better than Faerie Conclave due to the 2 toughness (DIE LACKEY DIE!), interactivity with Mishra's Factory, and most importantly, it doesn't come into play tapped.
I originally ran 2 Decree of Justice. But yeah, replaced those with 4 Path to Exile. I figure that if Uwr Landstill can run 4 Lightning Bolt and 4 Swords to Plowshares, why not let UW run 8 spot removal too?