Okay...time for the Chains guy to come out of the woodworks here...Chains + Anvil is the way to go. Popeye, PM me or IM me if you want to talk Chains...there's too much to discuss about it...Island Sanctuary makes the deck vulnerable, I tried. U/B is the way to go, and even U/b may be better. The problem with the deck, is that you need to pump instants into your deck.
When both players are under Chains' pseudo-lock, neither player has any cards in hand at the beginning of their turn, so 1 Chains and 1 Anvil turns into draw (first), discard, draw, discard. Recoil is my card of choice for an answer here, as it works like an instant speed Vindicate.
I actually have a casual deck that features 2 Chains. However, I went in a different direction from using Anvil. I stopped playing when the Rath cycle started, so all the cards in my deck are before Weatherlight.
I have fun playing it, and if you're interested, I could put a decklist together.
Okay...time for the Chains guy to come out of the woodworks here...Chains + Anvil is the way to go. Popeye, PM me or IM me if you want to talk Chains...there's too much to discuss about it...Island Sanctuary makes the deck vulnerable, I tried. U/B is the way to go, and even U/b may be better. The problem with the deck, is that you need to pump instants into your deck.
When both players are under Chains' pseudo-lock, neither player has any cards in hand at the beginning of their turn, so 1 Chains and 1 Anvil turns into draw (first), discard, draw, discard. Recoil is my card of choice for an answer here, as it works like an instant speed Vindicate.
I'd like to hear more of your explanations and a (some?) decklists if you wouldn't mind, though I'd like it to be public information in this thread rather than a PM/IM, as it will serve to help educate the Legacy players here as well as allow several unique minds to perhaps facilitate the culmination of an effectively competitive Chains deck
My decklists, I typically build for a very different scene. My first Chains deck was B/W/g, Chains + Anvil + Island Sanctuary, with Green for anti-blue protection, as well as Living Wish so I can use different tools in the sideboard. Island of Wak-Wak was in that SB, along with Guiltfeeder. Wasteland and Volrath's Stronghold made appearances there, too. This was my first time trying to throw together a Chains deck, and it sucked.
My second Chains deck was U/B/w, also utilizing Chains, Anvil, and Sanctuary. This deck had a few more synergies, though. I needed a card to deal with problem permanents, and I was using Vindicate. Sorceries suck in this deck, you really want instants...I stumbled upon a glorious little card called Oblation, and have been using it in every B/W Chains deck I've ever made. With so many GY effects in the game, throwing something back into that player's library is only second to removing it from the game. The double tick of a 3 mana instant, was that that permanent's controller draws two cards, which hurts with Chains in play.
I then went to a U/B chains deck, utilizing mirrored and forced card draw effects to abuse the Chains. Ancestral Visions found a home here. If I had Chains in play when Visions resolved, my opponent got the "three cards". If I didnt have a Chains in play, I drew three cards. Cephalid Constable fit somewhat in here, working as targeted removal.
U/B was fun, but it wasnt as competitive as I had wanted. I went to a B/W deck, utilizing the same (non-counter, non-blue) cards as the U/B/w deck. Chains + Anvil + Island Sanctuary. It was doing good for a while, but then my meta adapted to it, and Painter's Servant had just been printed, and my $2 Grindstones had just jumped to $50 overnight, so I played Painter.
Im currently playing the following Chains deck, and I find it to be working. It's fairly competitive, and I'm always trying to move it forward.
This deck is VERY vulnerable to swarms, which is why there are 7 cards to deal with them in SB, Propagandas and Damnations. Chill is there because the burn matchup is atrocious. As far as MD choices:
Chains of Mephistopheles: The main threat in this deck
Hymn to Tourach: Random discard is the best kind, and is also the only sorcery with the privilege of belonging in this deck.
Anvil of Bogardan: Need I say more? Creates a soft-lock with Chains, once the opponent has no cards in hand.
11 counterspells: Should speak for itself
Fact or Fiction: "Card draw" that gets around Chains-lock. EoT FoF = instant
card advantage, especially in this deck
Telling Time: Again, card advantage without a draw.
Wheel and Deal: One-shot hand-killer, when opponent is being stubborn. The 1 Chains trigger from the cantrip is worth watching your opponent's face when they can't do anything about the rest of their hand.
Recoil: The only permanent-removal this deck truly has. It is hard to find good removal with this deck, but Recoil acts as an instant speed Vindicate, even on Darksteel Colossus, but still not Progenitus or Akroma.
Vendilion Clique: Games have been won by turn 2 Chains, turn 3 Vendilion Clique. The CA is just NUTS.
Swans of Bryn Argoll: In legacy, Tarmogoyfs are commonplace. I'll gladly let my Swans "eat" 6 damage. Go ahead and draw your six cards when I have Chains in play.
If I would do anything to this deck, it would be to add white. Oblation is still the best removal spell for a deck like this, and Swords to Plowshares is still nothing short of amazing, until they print a card that reads:
Peaceful Revelations W
Instant
Remove target creature from the
game. Its opponent draws cards
equal to its power.
But, they wouldnt. I hope you enjoy my Chains "primer", and if you have any ideas for me, please pitch them my way.
Creature swarm and straight burn are definitely the threat to my (and your) Chains deck. I splash white in my deck, so I can run cards such as CoP, Peacekeeper, and a card that can often cause a scoop: Balance.
Are the swans/clique the kill condition in your deck? Or milling opponents? I would consider adding one or or two Racks. Or, if you want a better lock: Teferi.
I never thought of Teferi, in all my years of playing Chains. Thank you. Balance is banned in Legacy, or it would be in there in a heartbeat. With Teferi, Peacekeeper becomes really good. White splash for Peacekeeper, StP and Oblation anybody? Sign me up!
Flash of Insight is also brutal in Chains. I just realized that last night. THe ability to get 10+ cards late game for a crucial counterspell is sickening.
Swans/Clique are immediate pressure on the opponent and their creatures. The deck wins either way, in a more controlling matchup, Im bound to deck them. Against combo, Im bound to neutralizing them then attacking with creatures.
My bad. My deck would fit into the category of casual vintage, so I have one Balance in there.
The reason why I recommended the Rack is because you can't rely on your creatures against a control deck, as you recognized. Most decks will have some way of dealing with your set-up in some capacity. Even though you have denial, some of it will be used up getting your lock out, and I wouldn't rely on drawing into one. For those reasons, putting them on a clock (the Rack), creating a hard lock (Teferi), or having a way to dig/get a good set-up (Impulse,Flash of Insight, Lim-Dul's Vault) will help immensely late-game when milling becomes a viable win-con.
This is the one card that just confuses the hell out of me. How does this not just keep going forever? The oracle text itself causes a card to be drawn in a separate sentence than the replacement effect, so wouldn't it just trigger again? I know that's not the intent of the card, and I know how it works, but the oracle text just seems like it shouldn't function the way it's supposed to.
The funny thing is the actual card text doesn't create that kind of confusion.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
A replacement effect only triggers once per event. From the comp Rules:
419.6a - A replacement effect doesn't invoke itself repeatedly and gets only one opportunity for each event. Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads "If a creature you control would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals double that damage to that creature or player instead." A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage-not just 4, and not an infinite amount. [CompRules 2003/07/01]
Right, but the replacement effect is "discards a card instead". The draw a card part is in a different sentence. I understand that it works the way it does, but the wording is really wonky.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
Words of Wind does not work well with Anvil of Bogardan. The card is bounced, and must be discarded to Anvil of Bogardan. Abundance has the same problem, and so does Tomorrow, so you're playing cards strictly to negate a drawback. Why not play cards that exploit the Chains mirror effects? Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Flash of Insight? Targeted carddraw effects? Once you play cards to strictly negate drawbacks, you're losing potential, which NEVER plays off well.
wow! i never knew recoil exisited, that does seem good as you can play it before having to discard it.
well i just bought recoils and anvils on line, i think this is going to be the most fun i've had playing magic in many years!
edit: @ Mephistophelic Orion- would you like to converse via PM as previously stated or is this thread ok?
i was wondering about a more mill/discard themed deck. wouldn't thoughtseize and duress have spots here, as they help out dramaticly turn one. also, howling mine can help mil faster along with glimpse the unthinkable and muddle in the mixture can be transmuted to find an awful lot in this deck. and i believe the best beater in this deck might be nihilith or tombstalker.
oh man, i can't wait to peice this deck together... i'm dripping with anticipation!
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Chains is quite good against Mystic Remora, which is why it sees SB play in Vintage. Chains is also quite effective against all forms of instant speed card draw, which makes it playable in a format with some of the best of it. As far as the comment about Geth's Grimoire, the card is NOT what you want to see with Chains. The card draw will trigger Chains, and you'll be stuck discarding or milling...
Chains creates a soft lock if it is paired with a card that will empty the opponent's hand, such as Anvil of Bogardan or Teferi's Puzzle Box.
However, this set-up still allows your opponent to play instants during his/her draw phase, so s/he could weasel his/her way out of it still. If you throw in Teferi, then the opponent cannot play instants during the draw phase, thereby protecting your lock.
This would be great if Chains worked as printed. Much more effective than Jayemdae Tome, especially in multiplayer.
I just emailed Mark Gotlieb as he has done the last few oracle updates.
Yet again, Geth's Grimoire is NOT good with Chains of Mephistopheles. Geth's Grimoire triggering off of an opponent's discard will cause you to draw a card, triggering Chains. You will be stuck discarding a card to draw a card. Unless you're playing madness, this will NOT work as planned.
try throwing a second Flash of Insight. To do it early for 3 or 4, then late game with the lock down for 12+ is usually gg...you may also want to try 1 Swans of Bryn Argoll, it helps in blocking...:-D
When both players are under Chains' pseudo-lock, neither player has any cards in hand at the beginning of their turn, so 1 Chains and 1 Anvil turns into draw (first), discard, draw, discard. Recoil is my card of choice for an answer here, as it works like an instant speed Vindicate.
I have fun playing it, and if you're interested, I could put a decklist together.
I'd like to hear more of your explanations and a (some?) decklists if you wouldn't mind, though I'd like it to be public information in this thread rather than a PM/IM, as it will serve to help educate the Legacy players here as well as allow several unique minds to perhaps facilitate the culmination of an effectively competitive Chains deck
My decklists, I typically build for a very different scene. My first Chains deck was B/W/g, Chains + Anvil + Island Sanctuary, with Green for anti-blue protection, as well as Living Wish so I can use different tools in the sideboard. Island of Wak-Wak was in that SB, along with Guiltfeeder. Wasteland and Volrath's Stronghold made appearances there, too. This was my first time trying to throw together a Chains deck, and it sucked.
My second Chains deck was U/B/w, also utilizing Chains, Anvil, and Sanctuary. This deck had a few more synergies, though. I needed a card to deal with problem permanents, and I was using Vindicate. Sorceries suck in this deck, you really want instants...I stumbled upon a glorious little card called Oblation, and have been using it in every B/W Chains deck I've ever made. With so many GY effects in the game, throwing something back into that player's library is only second to removing it from the game. The double tick of a 3 mana instant, was that that permanent's controller draws two cards, which hurts with Chains in play.
I then went to a U/B chains deck, utilizing mirrored and forced card draw effects to abuse the Chains. Ancestral Visions found a home here. If I had Chains in play when Visions resolved, my opponent got the "three cards". If I didnt have a Chains in play, I drew three cards. Cephalid Constable fit somewhat in here, working as targeted removal.
U/B was fun, but it wasnt as competitive as I had wanted. I went to a B/W deck, utilizing the same (non-counter, non-blue) cards as the U/B/w deck. Chains + Anvil + Island Sanctuary. It was doing good for a while, but then my meta adapted to it, and Painter's Servant had just been printed, and my $2 Grindstones had just jumped to $50 overnight, so I played Painter.
Im currently playing the following Chains deck, and I find it to be working. It's fairly competitive, and I'm always trying to move it forward.
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
Artifacts
4 Anvil of Bogardan
Sorceries
4 Hymn to Tourach
Instants
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterspell
1 Wheel and Deal
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Telling Time
3 Recoil
3 Swans of Bryn Argoll
3 Vendilion Clique
Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
5 Island
3 Swamp
Sideboard is VERY meta-dependent, but I prefer
2 Misdirection
3 Propaganda
4 Damnation
4 Chill
This deck is VERY vulnerable to swarms, which is why there are 7 cards to deal with them in SB, Propagandas and Damnations. Chill is there because the burn matchup is atrocious. As far as MD choices:
Chains of Mephistopheles: The main threat in this deck
Hymn to Tourach: Random discard is the best kind, and is also the only sorcery with the privilege of belonging in this deck.
Anvil of Bogardan: Need I say more? Creates a soft-lock with Chains, once the opponent has no cards in hand.
11 counterspells: Should speak for itself
Fact or Fiction: "Card draw" that gets around Chains-lock. EoT FoF = instant
card advantage, especially in this deck
Telling Time: Again, card advantage without a draw.
Wheel and Deal: One-shot hand-killer, when opponent is being stubborn. The 1 Chains trigger from the cantrip is worth watching your opponent's face when they can't do anything about the rest of their hand.
Recoil: The only permanent-removal this deck truly has. It is hard to find good removal with this deck, but Recoil acts as an instant speed Vindicate, even on Darksteel Colossus, but still not Progenitus or Akroma.
Vendilion Clique: Games have been won by turn 2 Chains, turn 3 Vendilion Clique. The CA is just NUTS.
Swans of Bryn Argoll: In legacy, Tarmogoyfs are commonplace. I'll gladly let my Swans "eat" 6 damage. Go ahead and draw your six cards when I have Chains in play.
If I would do anything to this deck, it would be to add white. Oblation is still the best removal spell for a deck like this, and Swords to Plowshares is still nothing short of amazing, until they print a card that reads:
Peaceful Revelations W
Instant
Remove target creature from the
game. Its opponent draws cards
equal to its power.
But, they wouldnt. I hope you enjoy my Chains "primer", and if you have any ideas for me, please pitch them my way.
Are the swans/clique the kill condition in your deck? Or milling opponents? I would consider adding one or or two Racks. Or, if you want a better lock: Teferi.
I never thought of Teferi, in all my years of playing Chains. Thank you. Balance is banned in Legacy, or it would be in there in a heartbeat. With Teferi, Peacekeeper becomes really good. White splash for Peacekeeper, StP and Oblation anybody? Sign me up!
Flash of Insight is also brutal in Chains. I just realized that last night. THe ability to get 10+ cards late game for a crucial counterspell is sickening.
Swans/Clique are immediate pressure on the opponent and their creatures. The deck wins either way, in a more controlling matchup, Im bound to deck them. Against combo, Im bound to neutralizing them then attacking with creatures.
The reason why I recommended the Rack is because you can't rely on your creatures against a control deck, as you recognized. Most decks will have some way of dealing with your set-up in some capacity. Even though you have denial, some of it will be used up getting your lock out, and I wouldn't rely on drawing into one. For those reasons, putting them on a clock (the Rack), creating a hard lock (Teferi), or having a way to dig/get a good set-up (Impulse,Flash of Insight, Lim-Dul's Vault) will help immensely late-game when milling becomes a viable win-con.
The funny thing is the actual card text doesn't create that kind of confusion.
419.6a - A replacement effect doesn't invoke itself repeatedly and gets only one opportunity for each event. Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads "If a creature you control would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals double that damage to that creature or player instead." A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage-not just 4, and not an infinite amount. [CompRules 2003/07/01]
As does Words of Wind, if you have enough stuff to bounce and replay, thus slowly whittling down your opponent's board.
(Obviously, the other Words of... can be pretty handy here, too.)
Interestingly, there's also Geth's Grimoire, which has some noteworthy synergy.
Azerbaijan is strong in the Google-Fu. He is my hero!
well i just bought recoils and anvils on line, i think this is going to be the most fun i've had playing magic in many years!
edit: @ Mephistophelic Orion- would you like to converse via PM as previously stated or is this thread ok?
i was wondering about a more mill/discard themed deck. wouldn't thoughtseize and duress have spots here, as they help out dramaticly turn one. also, howling mine can help mil faster along with glimpse the unthinkable and muddle in the mixture can be transmuted to find an awful lot in this deck. and i believe the best beater in this deck might be nihilith or tombstalker.
oh man, i can't wait to peice this deck together... i'm dripping with anticipation!
Check your PMs...and IM me shortly after
Sorry I don't have the link.
There used to be a really good tutorial slash explanation of Chains on the inet somewhere. I have it printed at home if anyone is dying for it.
Meanwhile there is this I googled, for anyone still seeking a little clarity on chains:
http://www.pojo.com/magic/Featured%20Writers/Jordan/2006/2-3.shtml
J
However, this set-up still allows your opponent to play instants during his/her draw phase, so s/he could weasel his/her way out of it still. If you throw in Teferi, then the opponent cannot play instants during the draw phase, thereby protecting your lock.
This would be great if Chains worked as printed. Much more effective than Jayemdae Tome, especially in multiplayer.
I just emailed Mark Gotlieb as he has done the last few oracle updates.
Yet again, Geth's Grimoire is NOT good with Chains of Mephistopheles. Geth's Grimoire triggering off of an opponent's discard will cause you to draw a card, triggering Chains. You will be stuck discarding a card to draw a card. Unless you're playing madness, this will NOT work as planned.
spells (29)
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Mox Diamond
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Anvil of Bogardan
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 The Rack
1 Crucible of Worlds
enchantments (4)
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
creatures (4)
4 Dark Confidant
lands (21)
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs ------i dun have another 2 marsh flats so....
2 Marsh Flats
4 Rishadan Port
planeswaler (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil------should i change to innocent blood or small pox?
61 Cards
thought about adding green: Mirri's Guile (look at top 3 cards, no draw)
adding maze of ith, academy ruins, engineered explosives....