Alright, spoiler week is here! Time to dust off the Limited forum, shake out the cobwebs, and start trying to extrapolate useful information about the upcoming format from a frustratingly tiny sample of cards.
To kick things off: Monstrosity is back! And Tribute isn't! Hooray! I really tried to give tribute a chance, but it just never did anything for me. Most of the creatures weren't that good, and playing cards that give your opponent an interesting choice instead of you always just feels bad. But Monstrosity, IMO, proved itself to be a great Limited mechanic, and I'm thrilled to see it back.
Edited for further thoughts:
Dakra Mystic (Uncommon, U, 1/1, "U, tap: everyone reveals the top of their library, you choose whether those cards get drawn or milled") seems like quite the interesting and powerful utility creature. This kind of thing can get squeezed out if the format is too fast (see Bane Alley Broker in Gatecrash), but otherwise I'd expect this to be very good.
Satyr Hoplite (Common, R, 1/1, Heroic - gets a +1/+1 counter) is probably an early contender for the role of "aggro Heroic guy you'll be sick of losing to" in the set. Fortunately there will (probably) be way less Ordeal-equivalents now that there's only one pack of Theros, because the curve of Satyr Hoplite - Ordeal - Aura that costs 3 is gross.
Alright, spoiler week is here! Time to dust off the Limited forum, shake out the cobwebs, and start trying to extrapolate useful information about the upcoming format from a frustratingly tiny sample of cards.
To kick things off: Monstrosity is back! And Tribute isn't! Hooray! I really tried to give tribute a chance, but it just never did anything for me. Most of the creatures weren't that good, and playing cards that give your opponent an interesting choice instead of you always just feels bad. But Monstrosity, IMO, proved itself to be a great Limited mechanic, and I'm thrilled to see it back.
not to get off topic so soon, but I actually liked tribute. I liked that it added cool decisions (except that I've hit the wrong button by mistake far too many times on MTGO). Although, I REALLY liked monstrosity and I'm glad it's back.
As for the spoilers, as you said, we have frustratingly small group of cards to assess, but i like the commons/uncommons spoiled tonight. Ajani's Presence seems really good in any white based heroic deck. It's kind of like Dauntless Onslaught.
I know already I'm going to lose a bunch to turn 1 Satyr Hoplite into turn 2 Ordeal. In the RW heroic deck, it's like a Favored Hoplite. Obviously not as good, but it's COMMON. I think it will be a very annoying card.
Sigiled Starfish is awesome. I mean, it's a little starfish. I want to hug it. As far as gameplay though, I can see it being about as good as Omenspeaker, but it's tough to say. Omenspeaker lets you plan your next couple draws, but Sigiled Starfish (if it survives) allows you to gain increasing value.
Oh, right, I should edit my card descriptions with rarity. Satyr Hoplite being Common is the real selling point there.
I kind of like the Starfish too; as far as the comparison with Omenspeaker, I think it matters how fast the format ends up being. Omenspeaker is much better in a fast format because you get your value right away, and it laughs spitefully at Goblin Pikers. So when the first few turns are absolutely crucial and people are playing lots of goblin pikers, it looks a lot better than the starfish. But if the board stalls out and my two drop is still sitting there on turn 8 not doing anything, obviously I'd rather have a starfish, so I can see it being better in a format that's conducive to that sort of thing. (Note: It doesn't actually have Defender, so it's not that much worse at wearing auras in an emergency than Omenspeaker is) All in all, I expect Omenspeaker to be somewhat better given what Born and Theros have looked like.
Satyr Hoplite and Ajani's Presence mean that yet again WR aggro is going to be the deck you're most sick of losing to. Both look like premium commons; I wouldn't feel uncomfortable first picking either. Presence is a heck of a combat trick in this format, and more 1-drop heroic creatures= more broken starts.
Satyr Hoplite at Common is not a good sign. On the other hand, the Constellation mechanic and Strive both emphasise the later turns of the game, so I remain hopeful that the set will improve the block's playability for draft.
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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<Limited Clan>
I have literally never been this unexcited about a new (expert level, if that is a term still) set. Heroic and stuff that can't block & forces opponents' things to not block... I have very little good to say about this Limited format already, and the spoiled cards aren't promising (though I do like the Starfish). But I know that this is only a small sample of the set, things can still change for the better. Well, better from my point of view - I'm not going to make the assumption that everyone agrees with me! But I would really rather just fast forward to "Huey" & be done with Theros.
But I do not mind Monstrosity, so I'm happy to see that come back, at least.
Let's not forget the biggest change: another Theros pack cut. You need a lot of heroic hoplites to make up for the loss of that pack, so I'm not worried about the effect on aggro. It means RW is still a thing, but, unless we get a boat-load of other RW aggro cards, it won't be worse that it already is. In fact, it looks like it will be better (one less pack of gods willing / hopeful eidolon, favorite hoplite, phalanx leader, wingsteed rider…)
OTOH, while early to say if it's a real thing or just a hiccup, from what we know so far, it seems that Wizards bizarrely decided to make bestow worse and worse with every set. We first got bestow with good abilities, then vanilla bestow. Now we get bestow… with a drawback? That black bestow granting +2/+1 and "can't block" is really bad.
I suppose constellation will make up for it. That draw-a-card one is really, really good. Maybe constructed-good if there is a enchantment deck waiting.
As for that darka and starfish, I'm not excited. For the darka, you're spending one card in the hope of making up more than one card in value by drawing better cards than your opponent. The thing is, if a good thing is waiting on top for your opponent, it prevents you from drawing the card. If there is not, then drawing a card may make them one-draw closer to the good card. It would have been better as a fateseal, IMO, and awesome if you could have chosen between the two modes. Good luck getting value while not shooting yourself in the foot! The starfish is too slow I think. The reason omenspeaker was good was that 3 toughness was enough to block many early plays, 1 power traded with many aggro creatures and scry 2, not 1, really fixes your early draws. The little star does nothing like that, except the blocking. You only starts to scry 1 at the end of your opponent turn two turns after you played it. Not quite fixing the early draws. With the omenspeaker, you could easily keep two-lands hands since you could block and dig immediately. Not so with the starfish.
So, not excited so far.
Ah, and that Iroas God? I'm not worried. It's only good if your opponent *actually wants to block*. In many cases, in TTT and BTT, it was all about close races and spending 4 mana to do nothing because your opponent is not blocking *anyway* means you just mulliganed and skipped a turn. Sure, if you're ahead then it's good. If you opponent is close or ahead and actually plays, say, a pump spell or removal on his 4th turn, then Iroas won't be the god of any victory that day.
The black bestow thing does seem quite good as just a 1 drop though. Obviously we'll see what happens in the rest of the set, but it looks like maybe black aggro will be more of a thing?
You mean my 5/4 flying Wingsteed Rider can't block? Color me unconcerned. Granted, the 2/1 can't block guy is no Hopeful Eidolon, but he seems fine to me. Modal card really. I think he's pretty good. Bestow probably could have cost one less. There are better plays, but this guy is black. Perfectly reasonable for black.
OTOH, while early to say if it's a real thing or just a hiccup, from what we know so far, it seems that Wizards bizarrely decided to make bestow worse and worse with every set. We first got bestow with good abilities, then vanilla bestow. Now we get bestow… with a drawback? That black bestow granting +2/+1 and "can't block" is really bad.
I don't know, I think that's a good progression. It fits with the story in that at first the gods are bestowing powerful gifts on heroes and as the gods and humans become more adversarial the gifts become worse and worse and eventually can come with negatives. Not that I'm a story person. Plus, bestow is a really powerful mechanic in limited, and I think bestowers with drawbacks will add a lot to the gameplay.
So my biggest concern with the new format is having BNG as a middle pack. In general later packs in the draft tend to get you more playables (because you know your colors), but BNG is so shallow and weak it seems like I'm going to be needing THS to put in way more work than normal.
If blue gets another couple cards with strong Constellation abilities, there's going to be an insanely busted strategy around Floodtide Serpent + any Constellation permanents + any cantripping enchantment + any heroic creature. Yes, it's a four card combo, but you don't actually NEED the creature, and three of the cards are non-specific (and the 4th's common) so any cantripping blue aura, heroic creature, and constellation permanent will do. Just how much value can you get out of one Fate Foretold?
If blue gets another couple cards with strong Constellation abilities, there's going to be an insanely busted strategy around Floodtide Serpent + any Constellation permanents + any cantripping enchantment + any heroic creature. Yes, it's a four card combo, but you don't actually NEED the creature, and three of the cards are non-specific (and the 4th's common) so any cantripping blue aura, heroic creature, and constellation permanent will do. Just how much value can you get out of one Fate Foretold?
Of course it's going to be better if white based heroic decks can't kill you before you can set it up....
I don't expect to lose very many games where I resolve a Dawnbringer Charioteers, on turn 4 or otherwise.
(2WW 2/4 flyer lifelinker with white heroic)
I can't imagine there's going to be a better spoiled limited rare, making it the Eidolon of Countless Battles of the set. Makes maindecking Shredding Winds even more attractive than ever.
I don't expect to lose very many games where I resolve a Dawnbringer Charioteers, on turn 4 or otherwise.
(2WW 2/4 flyer lifelinker with white heroic)
I can't imagine there's going to be a better spoiled limited rare, making it the Eidolon of Countless Battles of the set. Makes maindecking Shredding Winds even more attractive than ever.
It's solid, but it's not a total bomb...it doesn't win the game on it's own, and there are a number of removal/bounce options to deal with it. Don't get me wrong...it's a great card that is likely to always be a windmill slam first pick...but I don't think it's close to the power level of Eidolon, and I don't expect it to be the most powerful limited rare in the set.
I'm happy no one picked up that I missed that darka does fateseal. It's better than I thought!
That was probably because it doesn't do fateseal.
Once the cards have been revealed, they either get put into the players hands or graveyards, so if you see a crappy card on top of your opponent's deck you have no way to make them draw it. Whatever choice you make, their next draw will be one that neither of you has any information about or control over (barring their own scry effects, anyway).
Edit: Wow, that reads very unclearly. I mean that if you see a bad card on their top you have no way to force them to use their next natural draw step on it.
Yeah, Fateseal isn't a good comparison. Because the cards come off the top no matter what, Dakra Mystic's effect on subsequent draws is identical to that of milling, i.e., nonexistent. It would do the same thing if the cards came from the bottom of the library, if it weren't for Scry and Griptide (neat synergy, that; 3UU, instant, bury target creature, mill yourself once). I think it will have similar value to a looter (incremental virtual card advantage over time), just by a different mechanism.
Re: Starfish - This can actually start setting up your draws immediately, at the cost of being unable to block after its first turn, because you can scry in your upkeep. Omenspeaker's still better unless the format slows down a lot. But I like scrying and it's a freaking starfish, so I have a soft spot for this little fella.
So my biggest concern with the new format is having BNG as a middle pack. In general later packs in the draft tend to get you more playables (because you know your colors), but BNG is so shallow and weak it seems like I'm going to be needing THS to put in way more work than normal.
I think the generally weak Born pack may just advantage reading signals over forcing even more than normal, since packs 1 (hopefully) and 3 are your most important. This is basically the opposite of Dragon's Maze, where forcing was unusually good.
Because drafting 1 guild exclusively or at least primarily was the best plan, either Gatecrash or Return to Ravnica was way more important than the other. And because the Gatecrash guilds were mostly stronger, and had better headlining commons in Dragon's Maze, you often wanted to just draft a Gatecrash guild. This made pack 2 crucial and pack 3 relatively unimportant, so forcing a GTC guild was a valid strategy, more so than forcing in any other format I can think of.
Interestingly, however, because the pattern is flipped for Red (great in Born of the Gods, bad in Theros), forcing might be more viable than usual as long as it's red. I'd be hesitant to try it out, because I don't like forcing in general, but I think the power difference between BNG red and THS red is large enough that it's not totally crazy.
So my biggest concern with the new format is having BNG as a middle pack. In general later packs in the draft tend to get you more playables (because you know your colors), but BNG is so shallow and weak it seems like I'm going to be needing THS to put in way more work than normal.
At least if you open a BNG god you'll be able to make a safer decision as to whether to pick or pass
If the pattern of 'intro pack rares' = fixed rares in prerelease packs from born of the gods continues, we know the prerelease rares from the packaging post:
To kick things off: Monstrosity is back! And Tribute isn't! Hooray! I really tried to give tribute a chance, but it just never did anything for me. Most of the creatures weren't that good, and playing cards that give your opponent an interesting choice instead of you always just feels bad. But Monstrosity, IMO, proved itself to be a great Limited mechanic, and I'm thrilled to see it back.
Edited for further thoughts:
Dakra Mystic (Uncommon, U, 1/1, "U, tap: everyone reveals the top of their library, you choose whether those cards get drawn or milled") seems like quite the interesting and powerful utility creature. This kind of thing can get squeezed out if the format is too fast (see Bane Alley Broker in Gatecrash), but otherwise I'd expect this to be very good.
Satyr Hoplite (Common, R, 1/1, Heroic - gets a +1/+1 counter) is probably an early contender for the role of "aggro Heroic guy you'll be sick of losing to" in the set. Fortunately there will (probably) be way less Ordeal-equivalents now that there's only one pack of Theros, because the curve of Satyr Hoplite - Ordeal - Aura that costs 3 is gross.
not to get off topic so soon, but I actually liked tribute. I liked that it added cool decisions (except that I've hit the wrong button by mistake far too many times on MTGO). Although, I REALLY liked monstrosity and I'm glad it's back.
As for the spoilers, as you said, we have frustratingly small group of cards to assess, but i like the commons/uncommons spoiled tonight. Ajani's Presence seems really good in any white based heroic deck. It's kind of like Dauntless Onslaught.
I know already I'm going to lose a bunch to turn 1 Satyr Hoplite into turn 2 Ordeal. In the RW heroic deck, it's like a Favored Hoplite. Obviously not as good, but it's COMMON. I think it will be a very annoying card.
Sigiled Starfish is awesome. I mean, it's a little starfish. I want to hug it. As far as gameplay though, I can see it being about as good as Omenspeaker, but it's tough to say. Omenspeaker lets you plan your next couple draws, but Sigiled Starfish (if it survives) allows you to gain increasing value.
I kind of like the Starfish too; as far as the comparison with Omenspeaker, I think it matters how fast the format ends up being. Omenspeaker is much better in a fast format because you get your value right away, and it laughs spitefully at Goblin Pikers. So when the first few turns are absolutely crucial and people are playing lots of goblin pikers, it looks a lot better than the starfish. But if the board stalls out and my two drop is still sitting there on turn 8 not doing anything, obviously I'd rather have a starfish, so I can see it being better in a format that's conducive to that sort of thing. (Note: It doesn't actually have Defender, so it's not that much worse at wearing auras in an emergency than Omenspeaker is) All in all, I expect Omenspeaker to be somewhat better given what Born and Theros have looked like.
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
But I do not mind Monstrosity, so I'm happy to see that come back, at least.
OTOH, while early to say if it's a real thing or just a hiccup, from what we know so far, it seems that Wizards bizarrely decided to make bestow worse and worse with every set. We first got bestow with good abilities, then vanilla bestow. Now we get bestow… with a drawback? That black bestow granting +2/+1 and "can't block" is really bad.
I suppose constellation will make up for it. That draw-a-card one is really, really good. Maybe constructed-good if there is a enchantment deck waiting.
As for that darka and starfish, I'm not excited. For the darka, you're spending one card in the hope of making up more than one card in value by drawing better cards than your opponent. The thing is, if a good thing is waiting on top for your opponent, it prevents you from drawing the card. If there is not, then drawing a card may make them one-draw closer to the good card. It would have been better as a fateseal, IMO, and awesome if you could have chosen between the two modes. Good luck getting value while not shooting yourself in the foot! The starfish is too slow I think. The reason omenspeaker was good was that 3 toughness was enough to block many early plays, 1 power traded with many aggro creatures and scry 2, not 1, really fixes your early draws. The little star does nothing like that, except the blocking. You only starts to scry 1 at the end of your opponent turn two turns after you played it. Not quite fixing the early draws. With the omenspeaker, you could easily keep two-lands hands since you could block and dig immediately. Not so with the starfish.
So, not excited so far.
Ah, and that Iroas God? I'm not worried. It's only good if your opponent *actually wants to block*. In many cases, in TTT and BTT, it was all about close races and spending 4 mana to do nothing because your opponent is not blocking *anyway* means you just mulliganed and skipped a turn. Sure, if you're ahead then it's good. If you opponent is close or ahead and actually plays, say, a pump spell or removal on his 4th turn, then Iroas won't be the god of any victory that day.
I don't know, I think that's a good progression. It fits with the story in that at first the gods are bestowing powerful gifts on heroes and as the gods and humans become more adversarial the gifts become worse and worse and eventually can come with negatives. Not that I'm a story person. Plus, bestow is a really powerful mechanic in limited, and I think bestowers with drawbacks will add a lot to the gameplay.
http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/spawnofthraxes.html
http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/scourgeoffleets.html
http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/squelchingleeches.html
Of course it's going to be better if white based heroic decks can't kill you before you can set it up....
It's solid, but it's not a total bomb...it doesn't win the game on it's own, and there are a number of removal/bounce options to deal with it. Don't get me wrong...it's a great card that is likely to always be a windmill slam first pick...but I don't think it's close to the power level of Eidolon, and I don't expect it to be the most powerful limited rare in the set.
That was probably because it doesn't do fateseal.
Once the cards have been revealed, they either get put into the players hands or graveyards, so if you see a crappy card on top of your opponent's deck you have no way to make them draw it. Whatever choice you make, their next draw will be one that neither of you has any information about or control over (barring their own scry effects, anyway).
Edit: Wow, that reads very unclearly. I mean that if you see a bad card on their top you have no way to force them to use their next natural draw step on it.
Interested in Custom Card Creation.
My Cube:Cardinal Custom Cube
A custom version of a third modern masters: MM2019
(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
If you don’t put the revealed cards into the graveyards aren’t THEY the ones you draw?
Re: Starfish - This can actually start setting up your draws immediately, at the cost of being unable to block after its first turn, because you can scry in your upkeep. Omenspeaker's still better unless the format slows down a lot. But I like scrying and it's a freaking starfish, so I have a soft spot for this little fella.
I think the generally weak Born pack may just advantage reading signals over forcing even more than normal, since packs 1 (hopefully) and 3 are your most important. This is basically the opposite of Dragon's Maze, where forcing was unusually good.
At least if you open a BNG god you'll be able to make a safer decision as to whether to pick or pass
http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/keranosgodofstorms.html
That seems like something I'd be more than happy to splash knowing there is little if any chance I'd get to make it into a creature.
White: Dawnbringer Charioteers
Blue: Scourge of Fleets
Black: Doomwake Giant
Red: Spawn of Thraxes
Green: Heroes' Bane