Realistically, how often are you going to cast Kiora's Dismissal with more than 2 targets? First, that would require UUU which is not exactly easy to hit in every game. Second, you would need 3 targets. At that point, it's maybe comparable to an instant speed Sea God's Revenge without Scry. You're not hitting UUU much earlier than 5U. And the targets are much harder to come by.
I would think of Dismissal as: most of the time it will bounce 1 enchantment for U which is probably fine / playable card in Theros because of Bestow. Occasionally you get the upside of bouncing 2 enchantments for UU which is a great deal if you can then deal with whatever they were Bestowing on. The problem is if you can't deal with the Hero under those Bestows, because you haven't reset its counters and you know those Bestows are coming right back.
It's an OK card. It will be overrated for a while as people dream of unlikely blowout scenarios and ignore the times when it was in their hand doing nothing at all, similar to Annul.
If you're casting Kiora's Dismissal with one target against your opponent's stuff, it's a worse disenchant. And by "worse", a significant amount of the time I'd mean "unplayably bad", because letting them have the enchantment back is often going to be a huge drawback vs. destroying it in this format.
If you're casting it with one target on your own cantrip auras or unattached Bestow creatures, that's actually a handy little utility spell in a lot of Heroic decks. And then of course you sometimes get to cast it with two targets, and very rarely with three... but it's actually pretty niche circumstances where bouncing two enchantments gets you more value than bouncing just one (again, unless you have a deck that's giving you good targets on your own side).
Knocking an aura off to eat a guy in combat is a thing, but how often do you have a board state where you can do that and they have an enchantment creature you actually want to bounce, or a second creature you can eat by bouncing an aura, or a voltron you can kill after removing two auras but not one? Sometimes, but certainly not often.
I think it's best to think of the card as "UW Heroic Charm". Provided you're a blue heroic (probably UW) deck with good targets of your own to bounce, it's offering a bunch of possible effects that are individually either minor or situational, but the flexibility makes it worthwhile.
Huh, looking back at Strive I find the "any number of" wording on the cards confusing. It's not "any number" - it's the specific number determined by how much mana you spend. I mean, I think the intent is clear enough but I'm not sure why its worded that way.
Holy cow, it's Gild on wheels. If your opponent swings unimpeded with that guy just once, I can't see how you can win that game. I'm no game designer or developer, but 2/3 seems far too big for a 4-drop that just ends the game if he isn't killed immediately or in combat the following turn, especially in a format in which untapping on turn 5 will usually mean he'll be swinging as something biggerthanameasly 2/3.
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Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
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Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
Quote from Hardened »
I hereby found the American Chapter of the Zealots of Semantics. All glory to The Curmudgeon.
I want Riptide Chimera to be good, but I have a feeling it's going to wind up in the same bin with Springleaf Drum i.e. enabler for a mechanic that's not good enough to justify an enabler. I'm struggling to find a way to really exploit it.
1) There aren't a lot of cheap enchantments with "enters the battlefield" abilities. Most of the upside is in resetting Bestow, which is fine but not so good if you're forced to do it every turn. The nice thing about Floodtide Serpent in theory is that you can choose when you want to use the ability. Riptide is a requirement. Sure it's great with Stratus Walk but how many genuinely good combos are there? (Not to mention you have to draft Riptide before you know if you have the combo pieces.)
2) Obviously you can go off with Constellation if you have a steady stream of enchantments to bounce, but how likely are you to set that up, and is the payoff worth it? Is it worth playing Riptide and bouncing itself every turn as 2U: Constellation trigger. That doesn't seem worth the effort -- the Constellation abilities, much like Inspired, are good but not so good to justify going out of your way to get them.
3) A 3/4 Flying without Heroic is not dominant in Theros like it would be in some format. Sometimes, a 3/4 Flying is the best creature on the board until like Turn 6 or 7. In Theros, it gets outclassed quickly.
I just don't see it working in practice. You can craft scenarios where it's very good, but I think most of the time that ability is going to be a heavy drawback.
I agree that durdling around with Riptide Chimera looks a bit questionable, but that's because the format may still be too fast for durdling to be good, not because of a lack of things to work with it. Every cantrip aura (they're in both Born and Theros, BTW) gives you good value with it, plus the possibility of resetting Bestow.
The real problem with it is Phyrre's point 3, combined with the mana-intensiveness of recasting basically anything but Dragon Mantle every turn. If you're trying to "go off" with Riptide Chimera, you're taking a significant tempo hit to do it. In a slow format, that would be fine, and even in some medium-fast formats you could be okay because the undercosted 3/4 flier would make up for it. But in a fairly fast format where 3/4 isn't actually that big (i.e., BTT draft), the tempo loss is real and hard to justify.
Who knows, maybe the format will slow down, but I feel like I find myself thinking that about every set, and it rarely does.
The format will almost definitely slow down at least some. Just the existence of global enchantments in the set should dilute the presence of aggressive cards a little, even if they do nothing else.
We've only seen 5 commons so far out of the set, and 2 of them are excellent aggro cards, though, so who knows.
I apologize if this has been stated earlier in the thread and I missed it, but the concentration of Enchantment Creatures (and Enchantments in general) in Journey seems higher than in BNG or THS. I think enchantment removal spells might jump up in power level in the new format. They were always playable, but stuff like Ray of Dissolution or Artisan's Sorrow might be worth earlier picks than we're used to -- similar to how Shatter becomes a top pick in an artifact-heavy block. This block seems to be getting more enchantment heavy as we move along.
So I just saw Godhunter Octopus for the first time. The mental process went something like this:
Me: "Huh. It's a lot worse than Sealock Monster, because it might never get to attack no matter how much mana you have. But a 5/5 is a pretty big blocker for a blue common, and it's awfully cute with Stratus Walk on an opponent's creature. It's probably not the actual worst 5-drop in the world, though I don't think I'd ever -"
"That Font of Vigor is going in all of my maindecks!" said no one ever. What do you guys think of the fonts? White is clearly unplayable garbage, but I think the Font of Fortunes is playable. Steep falloff after the blue one though if you ask me. Font of Fertility could be okay as well. I like that it comes down on turn one instead of two.
Font of Return could net you a 3-for-1, but that takes a lot of work and its super slow to actually get the full payout.
They are fairly cute constellation enablers in the late game though. Maybe that's the true intent? Certainly no Seal of Doom for any of them though, which is really too bad. I was looking forward to similar cards in this block.
What's weird about them is that they don't actually present any threat that will make your opponent change how they play (well, maybe other than to spend enchantment removal to destroy it). Seal of Doom meant that your opponent had to think about whether he was willing to lose the creature he was playing and you had to decide whether it was worth countering. All these really do is let you leave mana up and have a use for it on your opponents end step and the effects range from "bleah" to "ok I guess". The best of them seem like a card that only makes my deck if I really really need playables. It's hard to imagine I won't find a better enchantment to enable constellation if that's what I really need.
The fonts existing makes me think Constellation will be a bigger deal at common than I'd been anticipating. It would be great if that turned out to be a relevant part of the format, because the format could really use shifts in focus and pacing (Born felt to me like it was doing "Theros, only worse", and I'm consequently really bored with the draft format as-is). I've learned to be skeptical about small sets really shaking up existing limited formats, though I'd like to be surprised.
Font of Fertility and Font of Fortunes seem "playable" in a broad sense, but I doubt any of them will be especially good unless Constellation really matters and/or the format slows down (either of which could happen!).
It's interesting that the fonts would also go well with enchantment recursion if the format were friendlier to those sorts of shenanigans. I'd like to live in a world where looping Font of Return and Pharika's Mender was a thing worth doing.
I don't know if anybody ever played the MTGO-only full Zendikar block drafts (Zen/Wwk/RoE), but this feels a little like it. Two packs of ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK and then one pack of durdle. It made for a much better format and completely changed the value of a lot of the cards in the Zendikar packs. I'm hoping for this, but I'm aware we have only seen half the set, and it only takes a couple of stupid commons to go with Satyr Hoplite and we have another three months of solitaire to look forward to.
The Blue and Green fonts are probably going to make my decks the majority of the time. The Red one might see fringe play as a finisher in those super aggressive r/x decks that have no way to win once the board is stabilized. The White and Black ones seem generally terrible and I doubt I'd willingly play them. Seriously, why is Font of Vigor more than twice as expensive as Heroes' Reunion? Like the card wasn't bad enough already.
The blue font is basically Courier's Capsule, without the need to tap it before saccing. It’s just part of the whole ‘enchantments [supposedly] matter’ thing.
I am very unimpressed by all of the Fonts. Courier's Capsule was good in Alara because 1) it was an artifact & therefore good with Sanctum Gargoyle, Faerie Mechanist, etc, etc, 2) the format was slow, so card advantage was good.
This format is not slow (unless things change drastically, which seems unlikely), and there are not enough synergies with enchantments to make it worthwhile (as far as we know at this point, anyway). The green one is marginally playable, I suppose, and the red one works as a Lava Axe in the right deck, but the other ones do not seem playable to me.
Sometimes cycles are just bad, guys. The existence of the fonts doesn't mean they're any good. The Blue one is the only one that I could see myself playing often, and even that doesn't look like an auto-include in every Blue deck. BNG had those garbage Auras that enabled Inspired -- nobody plays them and for good reason. I think the same will prove true for most of the fonts.
The blue font is basically Courier's Capsule, without the need to tap it before saccing. It’s just part of the whole ‘enchantments [supposedly] matter’ thing.
This is so great. "Enchantments supposedly matter" is the perfect mechanical description for Theros block.
Trying to justify the white font existence: there's that white promo flying dude that recurs enchantments. In RTR post-DMG, the green dude that gave your 7 life if you had two gates was playable. So, err, hum. Yeah, he had a 2/4 body. And cost only 4 mana. But, but, but, … a 4/6 flyers that wins you 7 life for 6 mana turn after turn, think about it. No, wait! DON'T think about it. You'd realize it still is utter trash.
I tried.
U>G>R/B>>>>>>>>>>>>>W
Wowzee about that multiple act of treason red rare though. It's a rare, but how many games will it end? (i.e. 3 mana act of treason and strive for 3 for multi-treasons. Playing it for 6 as a finisher in red is very easy.)
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Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
I would think of Dismissal as: most of the time it will bounce 1 enchantment for U which is probably fine / playable card in Theros because of Bestow. Occasionally you get the upside of bouncing 2 enchantments for UU which is a great deal if you can then deal with whatever they were Bestowing on. The problem is if you can't deal with the Hero under those Bestows, because you haven't reset its counters and you know those Bestows are coming right back.
It's an OK card. It will be overrated for a while as people dream of unlikely blowout scenarios and ignore the times when it was in their hand doing nothing at all, similar to Annul.
If you're casting it with one target on your own cantrip auras or unattached Bestow creatures, that's actually a handy little utility spell in a lot of Heroic decks. And then of course you sometimes get to cast it with two targets, and very rarely with three... but it's actually pretty niche circumstances where bouncing two enchantments gets you more value than bouncing just one (again, unless you have a deck that's giving you good targets on your own side).
Knocking an aura off to eat a guy in combat is a thing, but how often do you have a board state where you can do that and they have an enchantment creature you actually want to bounce, or a second creature you can eat by bouncing an aura, or a voltron you can kill after removing two auras but not one? Sometimes, but certainly not often.
I think it's best to think of the card as "UW Heroic Charm". Provided you're a blue heroic (probably UW) deck with good targets of your own to bounce, it's offering a bunch of possible effects that are individually either minor or situational, but the flexibility makes it worthwhile.
In other news, it appears inspired is back, at least at rare, and while it was kind of underwhelming in BNG because none of the effects were all that exciting, well, this: http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/kingmacarthegoldcursed.html
Sweet flavor on that too.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
This guy is okay. Good thing it's difficult to grant creatures evasion in this block...
So far, we seem to have a few bigtime bombs going in this set.
1) There aren't a lot of cheap enchantments with "enters the battlefield" abilities. Most of the upside is in resetting Bestow, which is fine but not so good if you're forced to do it every turn. The nice thing about Floodtide Serpent in theory is that you can choose when you want to use the ability. Riptide is a requirement. Sure it's great with Stratus Walk but how many genuinely good combos are there? (Not to mention you have to draft Riptide before you know if you have the combo pieces.)
2) Obviously you can go off with Constellation if you have a steady stream of enchantments to bounce, but how likely are you to set that up, and is the payoff worth it? Is it worth playing Riptide and bouncing itself every turn as 2U: Constellation trigger. That doesn't seem worth the effort -- the Constellation abilities, much like Inspired, are good but not so good to justify going out of your way to get them.
3) A 3/4 Flying without Heroic is not dominant in Theros like it would be in some format. Sometimes, a 3/4 Flying is the best creature on the board until like Turn 6 or 7. In Theros, it gets outclassed quickly.
I just don't see it working in practice. You can craft scenarios where it's very good, but I think most of the time that ability is going to be a heavy drawback.
The real problem with it is Phyrre's point 3, combined with the mana-intensiveness of recasting basically anything but Dragon Mantle every turn. If you're trying to "go off" with Riptide Chimera, you're taking a significant tempo hit to do it. In a slow format, that would be fine, and even in some medium-fast formats you could be okay because the undercosted 3/4 flier would make up for it. But in a fairly fast format where 3/4 isn't actually that big (i.e., BTT draft), the tempo loss is real and hard to justify.
Who knows, maybe the format will slow down, but I feel like I find myself thinking that about every set, and it rarely does.
We've only seen 5 commons so far out of the set, and 2 of them are excellent aggro cards, though, so who knows.
Me: "Huh. It's a lot worse than Sealock Monster, because it might never get to attack no matter how much mana you have. But a 5/5 is a pretty big blocker for a blue common, and it's awfully cute with Stratus Walk on an opponent's creature. It's probably not the actual worst 5-drop in the world, though I don't think I'd ever -"
Godhunter Octopus: "I, uh, I cost 6 mana. Just, you know, FYI."
Me: "Wait, really? Are you sure?"
Godhunter Octopus: "Yeah. Sorry."
Me: "Go sit on the bench and think about what you did. Over there, by the big guy."
Benthic Giant: "Does this mean I can come in now?"
Me: "For the last time, no, dammit!"
Font of Return could net you a 3-for-1, but that takes a lot of work and its super slow to actually get the full payout.
They are fairly cute constellation enablers in the late game though. Maybe that's the true intent? Certainly no Seal of Doom for any of them though, which is really too bad. I was looking forward to similar cards in this block.
Font of Fertility and Font of Fortunes seem "playable" in a broad sense, but I doubt any of them will be especially good unless Constellation really matters and/or the format slows down (either of which could happen!).
It's interesting that the fonts would also go well with enchantment recursion if the format were friendlier to those sorts of shenanigans. I'd like to live in a world where looping Font of Return and Pharika's Mender was a thing worth doing.
This format is not slow (unless things change drastically, which seems unlikely), and there are not enough synergies with enchantments to make it worthwhile (as far as we know at this point, anyway). The green one is marginally playable, I suppose, and the red one works as a Lava Axe in the right deck, but the other ones do not seem playable to me.
This is so great. "Enchantments supposedly matter" is the perfect mechanical description for Theros block.
I tried.
U>G>R/B>>>>>>>>>>>>>W
Wowzee about that multiple act of treason red rare though. It's a rare, but how many games will it end? (i.e. 3 mana act of treason and strive for 3 for multi-treasons. Playing it for 6 as a finisher in red is very easy.)
Yeah, but this is pretty turdy, even for a lifegain card.
EDIT: I think the justification might be closer to "white needs nerfing." Or a witch-like cackle.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
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