Bad lifegain cards have to continue to exist if for no other reason than to allow new players to discover and understand why they're bad, and figure out the threshold that makes the occasional lifegain card good. (Note: the threshold is that you have to gain way more like than it seems like you should need, for the card to be playable.)
Sideboardable is a better word for both cards. The basic problem is that you spend a card being (generally) in no better a position, only having staved off death for a round.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Has there ever been a pure lifegain (no body, no repeatable effect, just a chunk of life for your mana) that was playable in limited? I guess I would play something like 2W - You gain 20 life, but even that doesn't leave me wildly excited.
They keep showing us durdly stuff, which would be great if the format was a durdly format. I'd be willing to play a 3 mana Rampant Growth or a 4 mana Divination that enabled Constellation cards in the right format, but it's hard to imagine this being that format, when they spoil stuff like Launch the Fleet and Satyr Hoplite.
No, neither of these cards has been especially playable. Maybe as a sideboard card against an extremely aggressive, almost suicidal deck or in response to a very unbalanced format, but generally these are not playable cards. They don't provide enough life to matter in most situations. They just delay the inevitable.
That's not very fair. Sure, you'd almost never want to maindeck cards like that but they serve an important role in the environment as a foil to alpha strikes. The need to play around Fog post-board tends to make matches in a certain kind of meta much more interesting.
It doesn't matter if Fog is in the format if it's an unplayable card 90% of the time. You're going to hurt yourself more than help by playing around cards that exist but are very rarely actually in anyone's hand.
Has there ever been a pure lifegain (no body, no repeatable effect, just a chunk of life for your mana) that was playable in limited? I guess I would play something like 2W - You gain 20 life, but even that doesn't leave me wildly excited.
Congregate seemed at least marginally playable in M14 just because so much the removal left creatures on the board, so it gaining 12-14 life wasn't at all unusual. Usually it got played because someone was trying to pull off the Angelic Accord thing. It still wasn't anything other than something you kind of rolled your eyes and sighed while including, but it seems a damned sight better than the font (even before taking relative format speeds into account).
Here's a question: What's the number they could have put on font that *would* have made it playable? 12? 20? No number?
Here's a question: What's the number they could have put on font that *would* have made it playable? 12? 20? No number?
And here we have the crux of the theory that pure lifegain is bad... how far from losing does a card have to get you to put you closer to winning? I submit that there is no real number... I mean, sure, 1000 life for no mana will make it pretty hard to lose that game, but does it make it any easier to win it?
Does your opponent's strategy rely on squandering resources and overextending? In that case, Heroes' Reunion/Fog is possibly playable, maybe even good. Not the case? Then you need an answer for what's gonna kill you, and now you're down a card. If a card doesn't affect the board state, it needs to increase your chances of being able to do so by enough so that it's a good trade for the tempo/mana. This is why Sphinx's Revelation is good; it draws you into resources while extending the time you get to take advantage of them. Fangren Marauder was great because it affected the board state in addition to gaining (an obscene amount of) life.
EDIT: I would, in a heartbeat, play a card that said "2W, Instant: Gain 3 life. Draw a card."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
I mean, sure, 1000 life for no mana will make it pretty hard to lose that game, but does it make it any easier to win it?
Well, clearly it does, to the extent that it eliminates the need to defend yourself in other ways, which frees up resources to race. Think about how differently you play when you're at 5 life compared to when you're at 20.
I wouldn't play a card that says WW, gain 8 life, but I would probably find a reason to side it in, in most events. I would think really hard about maining a card that said WW, gain 12 life. I would essentially always play a card that said WW, gain 16 life, although I'd still side it out against control decks. Against very controlling decks, a card that said WW, gain 100 life would convince me to build a deck that tried to run my opponent out of cards on turn 30.
I am being hyperbolic, for certain (zero mana cost should give that away.) Clearly, 1000 life breaks the game. The larger point is that in MTG you are trying to win the game, as is often confused with not losing the game. It's not a common scenario in which an extra 20 life will put you closer to winning the game than, say, a Giant Spider.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
...but against many decks, not losing the game is an important step towards winning the game. The classic example is an aggro deck with burn spells...they're trying to get your life total low with early creatures, then use a burn spell or two to finish you off. A bump in your life total can totally throw off that game plan and give you time to really stabilize. Now, that doesn't make most life gain spells good (as others have noted, they generally aren't), but when you've got the better late game, not losing early is winning.
...but against many decks, not losing the game is an important step towards winning the game. The classic example is an aggro deck with burn spells...they're trying to get your life total low with early creatures, then use a burn spell or two to finish you off. A bump in your life total can totally throw off that game plan and give you time to really stabilize. Now, that doesn't make most life gain spells good (as others have noted, they generally aren't), but when you've got the better late game, not losing early is winning.
Agreed. That is a good example of the type of deck that relies on "squandering resources and overextending," though I realize now that sentence should have been "tearing through cards and tapping out."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Without constellation synergies: green seems easily cuttable unless you're splashing (or you really need ramp). The blue one is a more expensive Divination (with a tad more flexibility in letting you split the mana cost), and that was hardly hitting the maindeck every time in the existing format.
Green ALWAYS needs ramp in Theros. The Font is basically just Voyaging Satyr in enchantment form, and the Satyr has been a consistently high pick since 3X Theros. In any sort of base Green deck, I'd probably always include the first Font because getting out Asp or Pheres-Band Tromper a turn early is often enough to just win the game.
The Blue Font isn't as good, but playing it turn 2 and just leaving it there until you have free mana seems good. Even on turn 4 you can play it then hold up Nullify or Voyage's End in case things go horribly wrong. I think I'd play it more often than not, especially in the U/B control decks I like to draft.
Speaking of the Tromper, anyone else really like the centaur lord, Pheres-Band Warchief? I feel like people are going to underestimate him for awhile, maybe even pass him, but I think he's going to turn out to be one of the stronger cards in the set just because a lot of the best green creatures just happen to be centaurs. Unfortunately he seems to be a nonbo with the aforementioned Tromper. Womp womp, Wizards.
Speaking of the Tromper, anyone else really like the centaur lord, Pheres-Band Warchief? I feel like people are going to underestimate him for awhile, maybe even pass him...
If anyone ever passes him, you should probably call an ambulance. The card is visibly nutty. I'm not too worried about the nonbo; a 4/4 vigilance trampler is good enough for me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Nyx Weaver seems pretty good. I like that you get a self-mill enabler and a payoff for milling yourself combined on a body you'd play anyway. Satyr Wayfinder.dek isn't a thing yet, but I'm still hoping.
Renowned Weaver is kind of interesting. I think it's an acceptable early defensive play in its own right, and as such it seems like a good enabler for both Constellation and the BG graveyard subtheme. Since those are two things I'd like to see pushed at the expense of Heroic aggro this set, I'm choosing to see this as a good sign.
I'm a bit late to the party on this one, but Golden Hind is probably a lock for one of the top 2-3 green commons. It's not strictly better than Voyaging Satyr, but Goblin Piker is a much better body than Squire. I'm very happy about this gal (apparently either female deer have antlers on Theros, or someone didn't know what a Hind is )
I personally would rather have a 1/2 on a body that will rarely be attacking and only occasionally blocking. Not a big deal but dying to a single point of damage does expose it to some stuff.
In any case, those aren't antlers, those are just ribbons that happen to be in the shape of antlers at the moment.
If anyone ever passes him, you should probably call an ambulance. The card is visibly nutty. I'm not too worried about the nonbo; a 4/4 vigilance trampler is good enough for me.
Warchief has that sort of blandness about him that a lot of people mistake for actually being bad. But I also think Artisan of Forms is a fantastic card and I am constantly surprised that it often wheels.
Besides, I've been passed Whip of Erebos 4th pick in pack 1 of 3xTHS, so thinking a glorified Hill Giant might get passed isn't unreasonable... :3
I personally would rather have a 1/2 on a body that will rarely be attacking and only occasionally blocking. Not a big deal but dying to a single point of damage does expose it to some stuff.
In any case, those aren't antlers, those are just ribbons that happen to be in the shape of antlers at the moment.
The satyr's ability also helps fix your mana for double mana symboled spells. The hind definitely isn't as good, but it's still a solid pick.
I personally would rather have a 1/2 on a body that will rarely be attacking and only occasionally blocking. Not a big deal but dying to a single point of damage does expose it to some stuff.
Dies to Eye Gouge! Another thing the Satyr has over the Hind is it can let you double up on a color other than green. But I think Hind fits better into more decks, since if you end up with a really low curve aggressive deck like the dreaded W/G heroic you'd much rather have the piker than the squire. They're overall pretty close in power level, obviously, but I think I'd give the edge to the she-male deer.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
...
Fog is playable, right?
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Sideboardable is a better word for both cards. The basic problem is that you spend a card being (generally) in no better a position, only having staved off death for a round.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
Does Illusions of Grandeur count?
No, neither of these cards has been especially playable. Maybe as a sideboard card against an extremely aggressive, almost suicidal deck or in response to a very unbalanced format, but generally these are not playable cards. They don't provide enough life to matter in most situations. They just delay the inevitable.
Congregate seemed at least marginally playable in M14 just because so much the removal left creatures on the board, so it gaining 12-14 life wasn't at all unusual. Usually it got played because someone was trying to pull off the Angelic Accord thing. It still wasn't anything other than something you kind of rolled your eyes and sighed while including, but it seems a damned sight better than the font (even before taking relative format speeds into account).
Here's a question: What's the number they could have put on font that *would* have made it playable? 12? 20? No number?
And here we have the crux of the theory that pure lifegain is bad... how far from losing does a card have to get you to put you closer to winning? I submit that there is no real number... I mean, sure, 1000 life for no mana will make it pretty hard to lose that game, but does it make it any easier to win it?
Does your opponent's strategy rely on squandering resources and overextending? In that case, Heroes' Reunion/Fog is possibly playable, maybe even good. Not the case? Then you need an answer for what's gonna kill you, and now you're down a card. If a card doesn't affect the board state, it needs to increase your chances of being able to do so by enough so that it's a good trade for the tempo/mana. This is why Sphinx's Revelation is good; it draws you into resources while extending the time you get to take advantage of them. Fangren Marauder was great because it affected the board state in addition to gaining (an obscene amount of) life.
EDIT: I would, in a heartbeat, play a card that said "2W, Instant: Gain 3 life. Draw a card."
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
Well, clearly it does, to the extent that it eliminates the need to defend yourself in other ways, which frees up resources to race. Think about how differently you play when you're at 5 life compared to when you're at 20.
I wouldn't play a card that says WW, gain 8 life, but I would probably find a reason to side it in, in most events. I would think really hard about maining a card that said WW, gain 12 life. I would essentially always play a card that said WW, gain 16 life, although I'd still side it out against control decks. Against very controlling decks, a card that said WW, gain 100 life would convince me to build a deck that tried to run my opponent out of cards on turn 30.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
Agreed. That is a good example of the type of deck that relies on "squandering resources and overextending," though I realize now that sentence should have been "tearing through cards and tapping out."
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
The Blue Font isn't as good, but playing it turn 2 and just leaving it there until you have free mana seems good. Even on turn 4 you can play it then hold up Nullify or Voyage's End in case things go horribly wrong. I think I'd play it more often than not, especially in the U/B control decks I like to draft.
Speaking of the Tromper, anyone else really like the centaur lord, Pheres-Band Warchief? I feel like people are going to underestimate him for awhile, maybe even pass him, but I think he's going to turn out to be one of the stronger cards in the set just because a lot of the best green creatures just happen to be centaurs. Unfortunately he seems to be a nonbo with the aforementioned Tromper. Womp womp, Wizards.
If anyone ever passes him, you should probably call an ambulance. The card is visibly nutty. I'm not too worried about the nonbo; a 4/4 vigilance trampler is good enough for me.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
The Tromper would be 4/4. You'd have 7 vigialnt trampling power right there.
Nyx Weaver seems pretty good. I like that you get a self-mill enabler and a payoff for milling yourself combined on a body you'd play anyway. Satyr Wayfinder.dek isn't a thing yet, but I'm still hoping.
Renowned Weaver is kind of interesting. I think it's an acceptable early defensive play in its own right, and as such it seems like a good enabler for both Constellation and the BG graveyard subtheme. Since those are two things I'd like to see pushed at the expense of Heroic aggro this set, I'm choosing to see this as a good sign.
I'm a bit late to the party on this one, but Golden Hind is probably a lock for one of the top 2-3 green commons. It's not strictly better than Voyaging Satyr, but Goblin Piker is a much better body than Squire. I'm very happy about this gal (apparently either female deer have antlers on Theros, or someone didn't know what a Hind is )
In any case, those aren't antlers, those are just ribbons that happen to be in the shape of antlers at the moment.
Besides, I've been passed Whip of Erebos 4th pick in pack 1 of 3xTHS, so thinking a glorified Hill Giant might get passed isn't unreasonable... :3
The satyr's ability also helps fix your mana for double mana symboled spells. The hind definitely isn't as good, but it's still a solid pick.