Do you not think it is powerful enough, or do you just not think it is sufficiently complicated? I'm going to guess that they thought they needed to make it fairly simple because of how confusing the board state could get quite quickly (e.g. if you had 2 of these out, and they each did different things when a non-creature spell was cast, every time a non-creature spell is cast you have to do with 2 unique triggers as well as whatever the non-creature spell is. That just seems like a headache). Not sure if this would be odd, but they could add some non-Prowess "whenever you cast a non-creature spell" effects to rares.
The mechanic as written still seems like it falls under "tricky". It allows for a lot of bluff swinging, since there's an on board "trick" that could allow them to give creatures +1/+1 even if the spell is countered.
It seems obvious to me that the mechanical theme for this block is making attacking and blocking assignments challenging, with emphasis on bluffing.
Morph -- Encourages bluffing, makes blocking risky.
Raid -- Encourages attacking, disguises bluffs. ("Don't mind me, I'm just attacking to turn on Raid...")
Prowess -- Do you block a 1/2 with Prowess with a 2/2 when they have mana up?
And if the Jeskai clan also has a subtheme of effects that trigger on dealing damage, that would make it even more complicated.
As far as power level, I'm going to withhold judgment on Prowess until I see what the enablers look like (and I think we can assume there will be enablers).
cferejohn: I'm just a bit frustrated that the mechanic itself doesn't do more. It could have been a Heroic-like Ability word instead of a bland mechanic that does need enablers to be interesting.
The main issue is that it might as well say, 'When you play a noncreature spell with Flash' if you want to talk about 'tricky'. That's the only time you can really 'trick' someone with the mechanic.
So yeah... disappointed. I'll still probably play it, but yeah...
BTW, this rather points to the Sultai mechanic being Transmute, I think. In addition to Morph, one of the five Clan mechanics is a returning one. Most people thought it would be a Bushido/Flanking reprint for Mardu or Ninjutsu reprint for Jeskai. Since we know both of those already, next best guess is Transmute for Sultai which goes with resource manipulation.
The main issue is that it might as well say, 'When you play a noncreature spell with Flash' if you want to talk about 'tricky'. That's the only time you can really 'trick' someone with the mechanic.
Umm...you mean an Instant? Why are you calling it a "noncreature spell with Flash"?
I think the mechanic is deeper than you're giving it credit for. Yes, it's simple. Yes, it seems a bit wonky for Limited because it's hard to survive in Limited with a low creature count. But it enables 3 distinct strategies. 1) Play a noncreature spell before combat to buff your team. 2) Use an instant to exploit a combat situation and turn it into card advantage. 3) Bluff and get damage in even without that instant.
A lot of people scoffed at Heroic for being lame and too situational when it was first leaked. We really need the context of the rest of the set to evaluate Prowess properly.
See, I wasn't a big fan of Prowess at first glance either. It seemed so bland and limited in its design space. RAID was much cooler since the effects can be all kinds of things rather than just the +1/+1 pump of Prowess.
Then I realized something:
The Elder has additional text that lets you loot when it deals combat damage to a player. What if most, if not all, Prowess cards have an "on combat damage to player" effect? That opens up a lot more design space. It makes Prowess itself an enabler of those abilities, rather than the focal point. On Combat Damage effects are common enough in Magic that you can't really keyword it for a set, so if they want that to be mechanical theme of Jeskai, it makes sense to keyword an enabler of said effects.
I like it and think it could lead to interesting gameplay.
Phyrre: Because noncreature spells can have Flash. Auras with Flash, e.g. My larger point is that to make is a White mechanic, they had to say 'noncreature' rather than 'Instant or Sorcery' (the Kiln Fiend mechanic).
APO: If the Magpie-type effects are Jeskai's 'true' mechanic, then they're not really tricky, are they? That's even worse than Prowess in the 'tricks' department, as that means all your effects are right there in the open.
Also, 'on combat damage effects' being common certainly didn't stop them from making an ability word for 'if you attacked'.
That said, you're probably right, since they did similar 'stuff' with Exalted. (Angelic Benediction and the like.) I point to Elder's likely inclusion in this because it is an Uncommon (presumably in KTK).
If I saw Prowess and thought of it as an enabling mechanic for another focus, my immediate idea would be 'Cantrips'. As others have pointed out, since Prowess doesn't give any permanent change to the creatures (unlike, say, Evolve), you need a constant stream of cards to enable the mechanic.
Again, I dunno, just leaves me a bit... mystified. (NPI)
I have a problem with Raid. I absolutely hate abilities that reward players for what they already do, especially when they don't really allow for much actual disruption. Compare Raid to Bloodthirst. They're functionally quite similar, and they reward similar types of aggressive play. The difference is that Bloodthirst actually makes combat really skill testing and an actual interactive mind game. With Raid, if my opponent swings with something, there's basically nothing I can do to prevent his turning on the Raid abilities of his guys in hand. Certainly it matters and could improve my outlook if many of them impact damaged creatures (think Orzhov Euthanist), but if they're more often just bigger guys or ones with much more relevant abilities, I dislike that Raid will be both difficult to disrupt from the other side of the table and could thus lead to some pretty downhill types of game states.
Prowess just seems lazy to me. This ability has been around forever, and unless they spice it up somehow (not by saturating with spells, but with adding effects to the triggers or something), it's going to feel retread.
I do absolutely love the functionality that Morph brings to the game, though. It adds playables to each card pool, and even though playing Grey Ogres isn't ever going to be ideal, off color Morphs are a great way to bait removal or mess with opponents' heads.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Providing a plethora of pompous and pedantic postings here since 2009.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
Signalling is like farting: it's a natural thing that helps people avoid being where you are, and if you try to do it deliberately, things turn to crap fast.
Quote from Hardened »
I hereby found the American Chapter of the Zealots of Semantics. All glory to The Curmudgeon.
I'm guessing WotC is keeping the abilities simple in order to keep the set's complexity down. You're already going to have abilities for the five wedges plus morph and morph triggers. That's at least six new-ish abilities to learn and keep track of. I know morph is a retread, but the last set that had morph was 7 or 8 years ago. Lots of people began playing since then. It's gonna be new to a bunch of people. WotC wants to avoid another Lorwyn.
Having missed Alara block, I can only say that I'm looking at the upcoming Wedge Color season with a sense of impending dread. I really hope there are lots and lots of mana fixers and color enablers, because there's about nothing I detest more than 'playing' a game of limited where I don't get to cast much, or any, of the cards in my hand. As a drafter, I don't know how happy I am with the knowledge that often times the best card in the pack is going to be the multi-color producing land versus almost anything else. First picking lands just doesn't feel all that fun.
As for the mechanics, I'm with Phyrre on Raid; aggressive decks are turning guys sideways anyway, and giving them a 'bonus' for doing that feels like it has the potential just to accidentally snowball into a win. There aren't many ways to outright stop a creature from attacking.
Prowess...I don't know. Might be good? They aren't reprinting Buyback are they? Most limited decks are going to have anywhere from 5 to 9 'non-creature' spells; whether that's enough to make Prowess something to worry about I don't know. The temporary nature of the boost seems very tempo oriented, enabling you to punch through and keep the pressure on an opponent before they can stabilize.
Maro has said (and he's had to answer the question a lot - people are obviously concerned!) that they're very aware that Alara had insufficient fixing for Limited.
Having to prioritise fixing for multicolour decks doesn't necessarily have to make for a bad draft experience, IMO at least - it works well in Cube, where focusing on fixing early is a solid (but not essential) approach that can lead to very satisfying decks. There's potential for it to make for interesting trade-offs or dull linearity, depending on implementation - we'll see how they do.
Fixing works in Cube because there are no Clear a Path cards. And because the fixing is insanely good fixing. It will definitely be challenging to include fixing and skill testers.
Maro has said (and he's had to answer the question a lot - people are obviously concerned!) that they're very aware that Alara had insufficient fixing for Limited.
That's fair but history is littered with examples where R&D "knew" about a problem but couldn't come up with a way to really fix it. Maybe put a band aid over it at best.
Ken makes a good point about the balance between fixing and unplayable commons. Hopefully because of the mana requirements, most cards in Tarkir will be objectively "powerful." The bar will probably be a little higher than usual in terms of what's really playable vs. the stuff that would be fine in M15 but is bad and you only play it because you spent too many picks on non-basic lands. Power level is relative after all. You can think of decks as falling into two camps:
1) High mana requirements, some serious mana hungry bombs, lots of fixing, some bad filler
2) Low mana requirements, probably not many bombs, not much fixing, can't afford to play bad filler
I find it hard to think prowess will be any good. Blocking attackers into open mana is *already* a bad idea anyway. Then there is the issue of just how many instant can you draft (or open in your sealed pool) and put in your deck before your decks becomes a pile of do-not-much spells when you don't have an active prowess on the board.
The ability has no long-term game effect outside of trading a blocker for an instant.
Thw worse is that the only way I can see of making it good is probably to make it oppressive, say like W/x heroic in Theros. However it turns out, I'm highly disapointed that the blue mechanic is combat-oriented. I highly doubt +1/+1 until EOT can be made constructed worthy. (OTOH, it doesn't take much skill to create a pushed card just to make prowess show up in constructed on that one card.)
Fer: Prowess is certainly a/the tempo ability of the set. I think that Prowess will actually be fairly good; I just don't think it's 'tricky'.
Is it lazy? Yes. Is it narrow? Yes. However, the closest mechanic to it was Exalted, and that was good. (Exalted was a lot more parasitic, though.)
I think everyone is looking at 'everything becomes a trick!' to see the amount of tempo Prowess gives all of your other cards. I mean, Prowess makes Unsummon into something that looks like Stingscourger.
Moving away from Limited for just a second for examples, it's pretty clear now why Void Snare and other similar cards are Sorceries: Prowess makes them 'better' than they would be otherwise because 'Bounce something, your army gets bigger' is a huge tempo play. Imagine double-bounce cards... even Divination allows you to keep pressure on while restocking.
The issue will be if Jeskai can feed its hunger for spells. Good examples would be Flashback, Cantrips, Rebound, Buyback.... but none of those are likely. In Limited, this is only a maybe. Jeskai Elder, naturally, gives card filtering which is pseudo-advantage. Also if Jeskai Elder shows the P/T-cost ratio, you only need one 'pump' before the card becomes 'good'.
Ironically, Prowess does not work well with Morph. Any Jeskai Morph/Prowess card will have to unmorph to take advantage of Prowess. OTOH, if Jeskai gets noncreature Morph cards, they could get 'double-duty' out of them similarly to Bestow cards in Theros.
On the fixing issue, we have the same cycle of trilands as Alara... I think the resolution of the issue will be not to push fixing, but to make Tarkir less Wedge-oriented than Alara was Shards-oriented. No CDE monstrosities goes a long way to evening out the need for fixing.
Finally, we have 2/5 Clan mechanics, and neither of them are returning. One Clan's mechanic (along with Morph) is a returning mechanic. Most likely would be Transmute or Delve (for Sultai), and Transmute would be very interesting to see alongside Morph.
Ironically, Prowess does not work well with Morph. Any Jeskai Morph/Prowess card will have to unmorph to take advantage of Prowess. OTOH, if Jeskai gets noncreature Morph cards, they could get 'double-duty' out of them similarly to Bestow cards in Theros.
Morph cards aren't cast after they've been on the battlefield, they are flipped, so I don't believe they affect Prowess unless simply cast as a normal spell.
I like that prowess will give jeskai a different angle on card evaluation, the same way centaur's herald meant something incredibly different to a selesnya deck in rtr than a golgari deck i expect something like fleeting distraction to be extremely important to a jeskai while maybe being barely playable in temur or sultai.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A scrupulous writer, in every sentence that he writes, will ask himself at least four questions, thus: 1. What am I trying to say? 2. What words will express it? 3. What image or idiom will make it clearer? 4. Is this image fresh enough to have an effect? And he will probably ask himself two more: 1. Could I put it more shortly? 2. Have I said anything that is avoidably ugly?"
I'm personally looking forward to another three colormblock. I do find it a little sad that shocks are rotating right before an even more mana intensive block. Although having the tri lands in uncommon slot is a little glimpse of hope that it will be fairly abundant.
I think they will most likely limit the number of gold cards in the common/uncommon spot to allow more flexibility in the draft strategies.
Ken: Sorry if I didn't explain well enough. I meant that noncreature Morph cards would give Jeskai more flexibility, in that they can choose whether to use the card as a Morph (and thus increase their creature count) or cast the noncreature spell (triggering Prowess), in a very similar way that Bestow cards in Theros could be used either as Creature or Aura (and the latter triggers Heroic).
All we know at this point is that Jeskai is getting creature Morphs.
Fer: Prowess is certainly a/the tempo ability of the set. I think that Prowess will actually be fairly good; I just don't think it's 'tricky'.
Is it lazy? Yes. Is it narrow? Yes. However, the closest mechanic to it was Exalted, and that was good. (Exalted was a lot more parasitic, though.)
The key difference is that exalted is linear, and gets better the more exalted creatures you have in your deck. Prowess wants you to be an aggro deck, but also wants you to run a whole bunch of spells in your deck, and last time I checked, spells don't attack very well. If you have a standard deck that is 16 creatures, 7 spells and 17 lands, you are going to cast 3 spells a game on average. Which means your prowess is going to trigger 3 times in the whole game. That's kinda as much as a single exalted card triggers by itself without any deck synergy whatsoever.
The only way I can see proeess being good enough actually being OP is if the format has a large number of cheap cantrips (ala the original mirrodin).
I think everyone is looking at 'everything becomes a trick!' to see the amount of tempo Prowess gives all of your other cards. I mean, Prowess makes Unsummon into something that looks like Stingscourger.
It will depend on how costed the cards are. If the prowess cards are basically costed without prowess factored in (i.e. they are worth running even if prowess never triggers) then that's fine. But it's hardly an archetype, more just something that's an aspect of some cards, ala deathtough or flying or intimidate.
The issue will be if Jeskai can feed its hunger for spells. Good examples would be Flashback, Cantrips, Rebound, Buyback.... but none of those are likely. In Limited, this is only a maybe. Jeskai Elder, naturally, gives card filtering which is pseudo-advantage. Also if Jeskai Elder shows the P/T-cost ratio, you only need one 'pump' before the card becomes 'good'.
Well like I said, my money is on a bunch of terrible 1-2 mana cantrips. Reach through Mists never looked so good.
Finally, we have 2/5 Clan mechanics, and neither of them are returning. One Clan's mechanic (along with Morph) is a returning mechanic. Most likely would be Transmute or Delve (for Sultai), and Transmute would be very interesting to see alongside Morph.
Why is transmute good with morph? So that you can transmute for a morph, then play a different morph from the one you just foreshadowed, thus baiting the opponent?
Seems a little weak. Why not just show your opponent a morph in your hand, then secretly play a different morph?
This is getting very speculative, but I doubt the returning mechanic is Transmute. Transmute is mentally demanding. To play it optimally, it asks you to catalog your entire deck and calculate on the fly whether it's best to turn this spell into various other spells. Based on how mechanics are trending lately, I don't see them bringing that back. It's anti-newbie.
It also doesn't interact with combat, and I'm sticking with my theory that Khans is the "combat matters" block. Morph, Raid, and Prowess are all combat focused. We have 5 leaked non-land cards so far and they're all combat related. That can't be an accident.
That is true. Having a lot of token producers will make Prowess decent. But again, how many token producers can they put in the set without it being a major focus of the set? I'm sceptical that that will actuall be the case.
AFAICT, there's no modularity to this mechanic, unlike Raid. Which is very odd, because the Jeskai are supposed to be tricky. Apparently not.
The mechanic as written still seems like it falls under "tricky". It allows for a lot of bluff swinging, since there's an on board "trick" that could allow them to give creatures +1/+1 even if the spell is countered.
Morph -- Encourages bluffing, makes blocking risky.
Raid -- Encourages attacking, disguises bluffs. ("Don't mind me, I'm just attacking to turn on Raid...")
Prowess -- Do you block a 1/2 with Prowess with a 2/2 when they have mana up?
And if the Jeskai clan also has a subtheme of effects that trigger on dealing damage, that would make it even more complicated.
The main issue is that it might as well say, 'When you play a noncreature spell with Flash' if you want to talk about 'tricky'. That's the only time you can really 'trick' someone with the mechanic.
So yeah... disappointed. I'll still probably play it, but yeah...
BTW, this rather points to the Sultai mechanic being Transmute, I think. In addition to Morph, one of the five Clan mechanics is a returning one. Most people thought it would be a Bushido/Flanking reprint for Mardu or Ninjutsu reprint for Jeskai. Since we know both of those already, next best guess is Transmute for Sultai which goes with resource manipulation.
Umm...you mean an Instant? Why are you calling it a "noncreature spell with Flash"?
I think the mechanic is deeper than you're giving it credit for. Yes, it's simple. Yes, it seems a bit wonky for Limited because it's hard to survive in Limited with a low creature count. But it enables 3 distinct strategies. 1) Play a noncreature spell before combat to buff your team. 2) Use an instant to exploit a combat situation and turn it into card advantage. 3) Bluff and get damage in even without that instant.
A lot of people scoffed at Heroic for being lame and too situational when it was first leaked. We really need the context of the rest of the set to evaluate Prowess properly.
Then I realized something:
The Elder has additional text that lets you loot when it deals combat damage to a player. What if most, if not all, Prowess cards have an "on combat damage to player" effect? That opens up a lot more design space. It makes Prowess itself an enabler of those abilities, rather than the focal point. On Combat Damage effects are common enough in Magic that you can't really keyword it for a set, so if they want that to be mechanical theme of Jeskai, it makes sense to keyword an enabler of said effects.
I like it and think it could lead to interesting gameplay.
APO: If the Magpie-type effects are Jeskai's 'true' mechanic, then they're not really tricky, are they? That's even worse than Prowess in the 'tricks' department, as that means all your effects are right there in the open.
Also, 'on combat damage effects' being common certainly didn't stop them from making an ability word for 'if you attacked'.
That said, you're probably right, since they did similar 'stuff' with Exalted. (Angelic Benediction and the like.) I point to Elder's likely inclusion in this because it is an Uncommon (presumably in KTK).
If I saw Prowess and thought of it as an enabling mechanic for another focus, my immediate idea would be 'Cantrips'. As others have pointed out, since Prowess doesn't give any permanent change to the creatures (unlike, say, Evolve), you need a constant stream of cards to enable the mechanic.
Again, I dunno, just leaves me a bit... mystified. (NPI)
Prowess just seems lazy to me. This ability has been around forever, and unless they spice it up somehow (not by saturating with spells, but with adding effects to the triggers or something), it's going to feel retread.
I do absolutely love the functionality that Morph brings to the game, though. It adds playables to each card pool, and even though playing Grey Ogres isn't ever going to be ideal, off color Morphs are a great way to bait removal or mess with opponents' heads.
:dance:Fact or Fiction of the [Limited] Clan:dance:
As for the mechanics, I'm with Phyrre on Raid; aggressive decks are turning guys sideways anyway, and giving them a 'bonus' for doing that feels like it has the potential just to accidentally snowball into a win. There aren't many ways to outright stop a creature from attacking.
Prowess...I don't know. Might be good? They aren't reprinting Buyback are they? Most limited decks are going to have anywhere from 5 to 9 'non-creature' spells; whether that's enough to make Prowess something to worry about I don't know. The temporary nature of the boost seems very tempo oriented, enabling you to punch through and keep the pressure on an opponent before they can stabilize.
Fixing works in Cube because there are no Clear a Path cards. And because the fixing is insanely good fixing. It will definitely be challenging to include fixing and skill testers.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
That's fair but history is littered with examples where R&D "knew" about a problem but couldn't come up with a way to really fix it. Maybe put a band aid over it at best.
Ken makes a good point about the balance between fixing and unplayable commons. Hopefully because of the mana requirements, most cards in Tarkir will be objectively "powerful." The bar will probably be a little higher than usual in terms of what's really playable vs. the stuff that would be fine in M15 but is bad and you only play it because you spent too many picks on non-basic lands. Power level is relative after all. You can think of decks as falling into two camps:
1) High mana requirements, some serious mana hungry bombs, lots of fixing, some bad filler
2) Low mana requirements, probably not many bombs, not much fixing, can't afford to play bad filler
The ability has no long-term game effect outside of trading a blocker for an instant.
Thw worse is that the only way I can see of making it good is probably to make it oppressive, say like W/x heroic in Theros. However it turns out, I'm highly disapointed that the blue mechanic is combat-oriented. I highly doubt +1/+1 until EOT can be made constructed worthy. (OTOH, it doesn't take much skill to create a pushed card just to make prowess show up in constructed on that one card.)
Is it lazy? Yes. Is it narrow? Yes. However, the closest mechanic to it was Exalted, and that was good. (Exalted was a lot more parasitic, though.)
I think everyone is looking at 'everything becomes a trick!' to see the amount of tempo Prowess gives all of your other cards. I mean, Prowess makes Unsummon into something that looks like Stingscourger.
Moving away from Limited for just a second for examples, it's pretty clear now why Void Snare and other similar cards are Sorceries: Prowess makes them 'better' than they would be otherwise because 'Bounce something, your army gets bigger' is a huge tempo play. Imagine double-bounce cards... even Divination allows you to keep pressure on while restocking.
The issue will be if Jeskai can feed its hunger for spells. Good examples would be Flashback, Cantrips, Rebound, Buyback.... but none of those are likely. In Limited, this is only a maybe. Jeskai Elder, naturally, gives card filtering which is pseudo-advantage. Also if Jeskai Elder shows the P/T-cost ratio, you only need one 'pump' before the card becomes 'good'.
Ironically, Prowess does not work well with Morph. Any Jeskai Morph/Prowess card will have to unmorph to take advantage of Prowess. OTOH, if Jeskai gets noncreature Morph cards, they could get 'double-duty' out of them similarly to Bestow cards in Theros.
On the fixing issue, we have the same cycle of trilands as Alara... I think the resolution of the issue will be not to push fixing, but to make Tarkir less Wedge-oriented than Alara was Shards-oriented. No CDE monstrosities goes a long way to evening out the need for fixing.
Finally, we have 2/5 Clan mechanics, and neither of them are returning. One Clan's mechanic (along with Morph) is a returning mechanic. Most likely would be Transmute or Delve (for Sultai), and Transmute would be very interesting to see alongside Morph.
Morph cards aren't cast after they've been on the battlefield, they are flipped, so I don't believe they affect Prowess unless simply cast as a normal spell.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
I think they will most likely limit the number of gold cards in the common/uncommon spot to allow more flexibility in the draft strategies.
All we know at this point is that Jeskai is getting creature Morphs.
The key difference is that exalted is linear, and gets better the more exalted creatures you have in your deck. Prowess wants you to be an aggro deck, but also wants you to run a whole bunch of spells in your deck, and last time I checked, spells don't attack very well. If you have a standard deck that is 16 creatures, 7 spells and 17 lands, you are going to cast 3 spells a game on average. Which means your prowess is going to trigger 3 times in the whole game. That's kinda as much as a single exalted card triggers by itself without any deck synergy whatsoever.
The only way I can see proeess being good enough actually being OP is if the format has a large number of cheap cantrips (ala the original mirrodin).
It will depend on how costed the cards are. If the prowess cards are basically costed without prowess factored in (i.e. they are worth running even if prowess never triggers) then that's fine. But it's hardly an archetype, more just something that's an aspect of some cards, ala deathtough or flying or intimidate.
Well like I said, my money is on a bunch of terrible 1-2 mana cantrips. Reach through Mists never looked so good.
Why is transmute good with morph? So that you can transmute for a morph, then play a different morph from the one you just foreshadowed, thus baiting the opponent?
Seems a little weak. Why not just show your opponent a morph in your hand, then secretly play a different morph?
Triplicate Spirits would like a word with you.
This is getting very speculative, but I doubt the returning mechanic is Transmute. Transmute is mentally demanding. To play it optimally, it asks you to catalog your entire deck and calculate on the fly whether it's best to turn this spell into various other spells. Based on how mechanics are trending lately, I don't see them bringing that back. It's anti-newbie.
It also doesn't interact with combat, and I'm sticking with my theory that Khans is the "combat matters" block. Morph, Raid, and Prowess are all combat focused. We have 5 leaked non-land cards so far and they're all combat related. That can't be an accident.
Yeah IRL having to tutor and shuffle constantly it pretty annoying.
That is true. Having a lot of token producers will make Prowess decent. But again, how many token producers can they put in the set without it being a major focus of the set? I'm sceptical that that will actuall be the case.