I think Warden of the Eye is a terrible choice. I feel like a broken record after my argument against Master The Way but in Khans, 5 mana = flip my big Morph for value. I have greatly reduced interest in non-Morphs that cost 5. (Similarly I like spells that cost 2 or 4 and don't get in the way of the Morph strategy.)
Have you actually played the format? In my experience that's not at all how it goes. Flipping your morph on turn 5 is, I think, generally an awful play, because it doesn't give you five mana's worth of board development, and invests you completely in that one creature. A simple bounce spell or whatever, and you're way behind. I find that flipping the expensive morphs actually happens much later in the game. For me the format is about attrition, card advantage and having options at all points of the game. Warden of the Eyes is excellent.
Anyway, Singing Bell Strike is just a mediocre card. It's playable but shouldn't realistically be a second pick. Those that want a monocolored card should take Sultai Scavenger, which is miles better. Or do you all just let your first pick (which most don't even like) lead the rest of your draft?
You really just need to embrace the rage. I keep a small colony of hamsters next to my computer and every time I lose a match to mana screw I throw one against the wall.
Skytherin: I find amusing that you announce your philisophy to be 'pick the best card, ignore colors' and then go on justifying your pick because it leaves you more open color-wise... ?!
Phyrre: I don't think bell is good against aggro/tempo because they tend to have many small attackers. Losing one temporarily to bell is not that big a hit when they make tokens and multiple hasty two-drops. Bell is good against deck with few creatures out early, I'd think? I also don't value bell high because in the pre-release I had decks with multiple dragonscale boons.
I do agree that when I played Temur, snowhorn rider was really good, especially since I had multiples. I also don't buy much of the color problems cause by picking it since it's a morph.
What I hate so early in this format and in a community draft is that pick order of tri-colors vs mono-colors is dependent on what other drafters do. While staying open always has value, if everyone else picks clan cards early, *some* of them will end-up with the clan they picked early and may dominate on card quality alone, which you have a consistent, yes, but weaker deck because by the time you have your clan you have fewer good gold cards in it. Maybe it won't matter much since we have two packs were hopefully everyone is settled and the packs in KTK are deep enough? Is that the consensus that the packs are deep enough? I don't have KTK draft experience to back it up yet.
Whatever the correct strategy is, currently I'm working on the assumption of picking strong cards, regardless of color. (To some degree. I'd first-pick a clan card only if its power justifies it. Two close cards can be differentiated by their color commitment.) So that's why I'd take either the eye or snowhorn. Given how little snowhorn has support in this thread so far, I keep my eye pick.
Skytherin: I find amusing that you announce your philisophy to be 'pick the best card, ignore colors' and then go on justifying your pick because it leaves you more open color-wise... ?!
I didn't say "ignore colors". I said I look at my colors to act as tie-breakers. Singing Bell Strike is one of the most powerful cards in this pack, but not clearly the best, so I look to existing picks as tie-breakers. Are you less amused now?
I don't know about you guys, but I've run into a lot more problems going into pack 3 of my drafts where I'm like: "Holy crap, I've got a lot of 4+ mana spells and not enough early action" than "Oh no, too many cheap spells and not enough 5 drops!" Taking a cheap spell now lets us avoid situations later where we are forced to take a crummy two-drop over a substantially better expensive spell. The power level of warden is just not high enough to warrant taking a five mana, tri-colored card here.
It's the closest blue has to hard removal in this format, and if it forces my opponent to use a Feat of Resistance or Dragonscale Boon, so much the better.
I'd like to stay flexible and pick Singing Bell Strike. I've found that card to be excellent and it keeps us fairly open to either Jeskai or Temur (assuming we stay in RU).
Aaaand this is where community drafting falls down. We pick a UR card first and suddenly we're a UR deck that must only pick UR cards. Singing Bell Strike is not a 2nd pick card. Please don't force us down that path. The first several picks in a draft should be about power, and basically not account for color consistency at all.
The most powerful cards in the pack are Snowhorn Rider, Warden of the Eye, and Sultai Scavenger. If one of those isn't the pick from this pack, then we did it wrong.
New rule:
If you want to change your vote, either edit your previous post or bold it plus strike it through ([s][/s]) as you post your new pick.
So basically, if you change your vote from Warden of the Eye to Singing Bell Strike (for example), just post this:
Warden of the Eye
Singing Bell Strike
Just to make it a bit easier for me when I'm counting the votes These are turning out to be multi-page discussion threads, which is great, but it's harder to keep track of which card is actually winning. And don't worry rujasu, you did it right, I just figured I'd make sure everyone else does as well.
Aaaand this is where community drafting falls down.
Frankly it never had a prayer, not before MTGO release and certainly not in a set as complicated as this one. Khans requires far too many judgment calls and issues like risk tolerance to effectively draft it as a community. It's kind of pointless because I guarantee this deck is winding up with UR as main colors thanks to Pick 1.1. While we all might individually decide to abandon a color at some point, individual votes don't really matter and it's near impossible to convince a majority "Now is the time to change." So the mediocre on-color cards will keep winning.
This is before we've even had to debate fixing since we've only seen Gates so far...gee that'll be fun.
I still think it's informative just to talk about the format though, and this activity raises interesting questions along the way. The deck's gonna be garbage like always though, let's just acknowledge that. ;-)
Aaaand this is where community drafting falls down. We pick a UR card first and suddenly we're a UR deck that must only pick UR cards. Singing Bell Strike is not a 2nd pick card. Please don't force us down that path. The first several picks in a draft should be about power, and basically not account for color consistency at all.
The most powerful cards in the pack are Snowhorn Rider, Warden of the Eye, and Sultai Scavenger. If one of those isn't the pick from this pack, then we did it wrong.
See, if I agreed that those are the options, I'd take Sultai Scavenger, because I'm really not interested in any but the most absurd 3-color cards at the start of the draft, and neither Snowhorn Rider nor Warden of the Eye qualify.
So what we have here (speaking for myself, but the same is probably true for others) isn't a failure of fundamental strategy but a disagreement in card evaluation for Singing Bell Strike vs. Sultai Scavenger. I suspect that I think more of the former than you do ("X is not a 2nd pick" is not a coherent argument at the point where you're looking at a real pack; anything playable can be a 2nd pick in the right [wrong?] pack).
I think some folks also have a much higher opinion of Sultai Scavenger than I do; I'd consider it a pretty depressing 2nd pick in its own right. It's usually not hard to make it a 5-mana 3/3 flier, which is as much a mediocre playable as always. If you could reliably drop it on turn 4 it would be great, but that's simply not the case outside of dedicated, combo-style delve deck. In other decks it's a 4-drop a non-negligible amount of the time, but getting your 2-drop and your 3-drop into the graveyard by turn 4 is not normal.
All in all, Sultai Scavenger is fine, but I don't agree that it's superior to Singing Bell Strike.
I agree about us not being UR yet but i do think singing bell strike is strong enough to 2nd pick, and i'm still much more averse to gold cards which makes the pick for me between singing bell strike and sultai scavenger with scoured barrens as a distant third. I'm much more interested in sultai scavenger.
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I think some folks also have a much higher opinion of Sultai Scavenger than I do; I'd consider it a pretty depressing 2nd pick in its own right. It's usually not hard to make it a 5-mana 3/3 flier, which is as much a mediocre playable as always. If you could reliably drop it on turn 4 it would be great, but that's simply not the case outside of dedicated, combo-style delve deck. In other decks it's a 4-drop a non-negligible amount of the time, but getting your 2-drop and your 3-drop into the graveyard by turn 4 is not normal.
All in all, Sultai Scavenger is fine, but I don't agree that it's superior to Singing Bell Strike.
I've played with the Scavenger a lot, and it's very good. It's not just how fast you can power out a 3/3 flier, but that you can play a 3/3 flier for 2-3 mana and have flip mana/removal mana open after playing an evasive threat.
Here's why I'm wary of Sultai Scavenger. It seems to me each delve card you pick makes subsequent delve cards worse, and I worry that picking one early runs the risk of drafting too many delve cards. How many delve cards can a deck support? 3?
I think some folks also have a much higher opinion of Sultai Scavenger than I do; I'd consider it a pretty depressing 2nd pick in its own right. It's usually not hard to make it a 5-mana 3/3 flier, which is as much a mediocre playable as always. If you could reliably drop it on turn 4 it would be great, but that's simply not the case outside of dedicated, combo-style delve deck. In other decks it's a 4-drop a non-negligible amount of the time, but getting your 2-drop and your 3-drop into the graveyard by turn 4 is not normal.
All in all, Sultai Scavenger is fine, but I don't agree that it's superior to Singing Bell Strike.
I've played with the Scavenger a lot, and it's very good. It's not just how fast you can power out a 3/3 flier, but that you can play a 3/3 flier for 2-3 mana and have flip mana/removal mana open after playing an evasive threat.
That's certainly an upside vs. a standard-issue Nimbus of the Isles. My experience has been (and of course my experience is very limited at this point, and I'll happily admit that I could be way off-base) that the normal use case for Sultai Scavenger is a 5-6 mana flier and the upside of being cast turn 4, or later with enough extra mana to do something useful, only comes up occasionally.
Admittedly I haven't seen a delve-focused Sultai deck that can reliably get value from its graveyard yet, and I've been developing a suspicion that they just aren't "a thing." That could turn out to be totally wrong, and obviously Sultai Scavenger would look a lot better there. For the time being, I think it's basically "fine", which is similar to how I rate Singing Bell Strike.
For delve, i think 4 is the sweet spot since that means 1 in 10 cards will be a delve card, 3-4 will be lands, and 5-6 will be things that one way or another will either wind up in the grave or winning you the game. 5-6 is clearly more than any one delve spell needs to be good but once you run up to 5 you run the risk of seeing more than one in your first 10 cards / 4 turns regularly which runs the risk of leaving it stranded in your hand for awhile when you really might need a playable card. You can start to run delve enablers to skew up to 6 or 7 delve cards but that gets increasingly unreliable the more you lean on it.
On another topic, I don't really agree with this notion that a forum draft has to go perfectly or even well. We learn very little from a draft that goes by the numbers, what's important isn't that everyone votes for what's right (or what you personally vote for) it's that we talk about our picks and our reasoning. Forum drafts or similarly mtgo draft streams with an interactive chat are often interesting or informative because you find yourself with such a strange pool of cards and are forced to make decisions comparing cards or weighing risks you otherwise wouldn't often see. Even if the majority goes against your personal pick every vote, what matters is simply that you do vote with a clear understanding of why you are voting for that choice and keep an open mind and open ear to other thoughts and opinions to see if any conflicting points strike you as especially salient or logical so you can incorporate that idea into your reasoning the next time you make a similar choice.
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I'll pick Singing Bell Strike over Snowhorn Rider here. I don't see Warden of the Eye being super useful, but if we end up needing late game later down the line, I'd pick it.
On another topic, I don't really agree with this notion that a forum draft has to go perfectly or even well. We learn very little from a draft that goes by the numbers, what's important isn't that everyone votes for what's right (or what you personally vote for) it's that we talk about our picks and our reasoning. Forum drafts or similarly mtgo draft streams with an interactive chat are often interesting or informative because you find yourself with such a strange pool of cards and are forced to make decisions comparing cards or weighing risks you otherwise wouldn't often see. Even if the majority goes against your personal pick every vote, what matters is simply that you do vote with a clear understanding of why you are voting for that choice and keep an open mind and open ear to other thoughts and opinions to see if any conflicting points strike you as especially salient or logical so you can incorporate that idea into your reasoning the next time you make a similar choice.
I can definitely see merit in that, but what I'd really like to be able to talk about is evaluating cards based on more advanced issues, like what the curve for a particular archetype ought to look like, or whether certain synergies can outweigh a card being generally weak. But since forum drafts always seem to be about how to salvage a trainwreck, we never get there.
You're right, though, I shouldn't complain. I do still value the chance to see differing perspectives (even if you're all wrong :p).
I can definitely see merit in that, but what I'd really like to be able to talk about is evaluating cards based on more advanced issues, like what the curve for a particular archetype ought to look like, or whether certain synergies can outweigh a card being generally weak. But since forum drafts always seem to be about how to salvage a trainwreck, we never get there.
You're right, though, I shouldn't complain. I do still value the chance to see differing perspectives (even if you're all wrong :p).
To your credit i think your post is probably the most important one in the pick 2 thread so far. Jacob Wilson just did a channel fireball article where this was one of his points. Over the course of 3 hours and 29 posts no one assumed we shouldn't be attached at the hip to master the way and remain open to power over going all in on our first pick. One guy picked scavenger seemingly out of spite for the first pick and many could have picked bell strike for the right reasons but no one really vocalized what was important, in my mind, to that decision yet. So even if you don't get a lot out of it i think your participation is super important for those that are.
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For one thing, the packs have not had any stellar, clear picks so far, so claiming that card X or Y should not be a 2nd pick is off-base, IMO. There are no card in this pack that are happy 2nd-pick.
As far as curve goes, taking the snowhorn is a proper startegy curve-wise. It's a morph. The problem is that the pack we got had few mono-colors morph in them. We had the roost 21 flyer in pack one and that's it, I believe. So, we've been stuck debating 4th-5th drops so far. mostly, except if we want to take a 3-colors morph.
... but then a lot of drafters are currently wary of making a heavy color commitment in the first picks. That's one problem with the community draft: some are more risk averse than other, but the balance can shift from pick to pick, so we will probably get incoherent picks as far as risk/reward goes.
Finally, saying that we're married to UR to explain warden of the eye or snowhorn rider is a bit disingeneous, IMO. Yes, sultai scavenger is a fine card, but those two also are and have the advantage of staying on-course.
Furthermore, if the packs are deep enough, and given that all commons are single-colors, I think it will be easy to fill-out whatever clan you pick early with commons in later picks, as long as your immediate neighbour is not in the same clan. I'd have to think that picking warden and passing scavenger + rider gives us chances that they will go into those colors. After all, for the drafter receive this pack for 3rd pick, I think scavenger, bell and rider are the possible choices and none of them push them hard into Jeskai.
PS: as for delve, I think a delve deck can support at least 5 cards, more if you take enabler. (And you should take enablers.) In my pre-release, delve deck worked very well and had no trouble delving. I think paying 4 for teh scavenger would be the norm.
Would've had the Black Delve flier (P1P1) + this guy, so I would head off to the 'trainwreck' draft department and rare draft!
I got wrecked by this guy, there's lots of good removal and Sultai is a good one to draft. Maybe I'm just being daft and contrarian, but, I seriously take this guy. (I would never play Master in my deck, I just don't see it happening, sorry!).
/or bad drafter is bad
(Edit; Also because it's a community draft, I like to listen to people's point of view, but I will draft my own deck and compare it to the community one afterwards).
(Edit; Also because it's a community draft, I like to listen to people's point of view, but I will draft my own deck and compare it to the community one afterwards).
This works for the first few picks, but once you get into the end of the first pack and the other two packs, your early selections affect the available picks later on in the draft. So you can't really "draft your own deck," since the packs won't be an accurate representation of what would be passed to you later on.
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Have you actually played the format? In my experience that's not at all how it goes. Flipping your morph on turn 5 is, I think, generally an awful play, because it doesn't give you five mana's worth of board development, and invests you completely in that one creature. A simple bounce spell or whatever, and you're way behind. I find that flipping the expensive morphs actually happens much later in the game. For me the format is about attrition, card advantage and having options at all points of the game. Warden of the Eyes is excellent.
Anyway, Singing Bell Strike is just a mediocre card. It's playable but shouldn't realistically be a second pick. Those that want a monocolored card should take Sultai Scavenger, which is miles better. Or do you all just let your first pick (which most don't even like) lead the rest of your draft?
Phyrre: I don't think bell is good against aggro/tempo because they tend to have many small attackers. Losing one temporarily to bell is not that big a hit when they make tokens and multiple hasty two-drops. Bell is good against deck with few creatures out early, I'd think? I also don't value bell high because in the pre-release I had decks with multiple dragonscale boons.
I do agree that when I played Temur, snowhorn rider was really good, especially since I had multiples. I also don't buy much of the color problems cause by picking it since it's a morph.
What I hate so early in this format and in a community draft is that pick order of tri-colors vs mono-colors is dependent on what other drafters do. While staying open always has value, if everyone else picks clan cards early, *some* of them will end-up with the clan they picked early and may dominate on card quality alone, which you have a consistent, yes, but weaker deck because by the time you have your clan you have fewer good gold cards in it. Maybe it won't matter much since we have two packs were hopefully everyone is settled and the packs in KTK are deep enough? Is that the consensus that the packs are deep enough? I don't have KTK draft experience to back it up yet.
Whatever the correct strategy is, currently I'm working on the assumption of picking strong cards, regardless of color. (To some degree. I'd first-pick a clan card only if its power justifies it. Two close cards can be differentiated by their color commitment.) So that's why I'd take either the eye or snowhorn. Given how little snowhorn has support in this thread so far, I keep my eye pick.
I didn't say "ignore colors". I said I look at my colors to act as tie-breakers. Singing Bell Strike is one of the most powerful cards in this pack, but not clearly the best, so I look to existing picks as tie-breakers. Are you less amused now?
It's the closest blue has to hard removal in this format, and if it forces my opponent to use a Feat of Resistance or Dragonscale Boon, so much the better.
The most powerful cards in the pack are Snowhorn Rider, Warden of the Eye, and Sultai Scavenger. If one of those isn't the pick from this pack, then we did it wrong.
If you want to change your vote, either edit your previous post or bold it plus
strike it through([s][/s]) as you post your new pick.So basically, if you change your vote from Warden of the Eye to Singing Bell Strike (for example), just post this:
Warden of the EyeSinging Bell Strike
Just to make it a bit easier for me when I'm counting the votes These are turning out to be multi-page discussion threads, which is great, but it's harder to keep track of which card is actually winning. And don't worry rujasu, you did it right, I just figured I'd make sure everyone else does as well.
Frankly it never had a prayer, not before MTGO release and certainly not in a set as complicated as this one. Khans requires far too many judgment calls and issues like risk tolerance to effectively draft it as a community. It's kind of pointless because I guarantee this deck is winding up with UR as main colors thanks to Pick 1.1. While we all might individually decide to abandon a color at some point, individual votes don't really matter and it's near impossible to convince a majority "Now is the time to change." So the mediocre on-color cards will keep winning.
This is before we've even had to debate fixing since we've only seen Gates so far...gee that'll be fun.
I still think it's informative just to talk about the format though, and this activity raises interesting questions along the way. The deck's gonna be garbage like always though, let's just acknowledge that. ;-)
So what we have here (speaking for myself, but the same is probably true for others) isn't a failure of fundamental strategy but a disagreement in card evaluation for Singing Bell Strike vs. Sultai Scavenger. I suspect that I think more of the former than you do ("X is not a 2nd pick" is not a coherent argument at the point where you're looking at a real pack; anything playable can be a 2nd pick in the right [wrong?] pack).
I think some folks also have a much higher opinion of Sultai Scavenger than I do; I'd consider it a pretty depressing 2nd pick in its own right. It's usually not hard to make it a 5-mana 3/3 flier, which is as much a mediocre playable as always. If you could reliably drop it on turn 4 it would be great, but that's simply not the case outside of dedicated, combo-style delve deck. In other decks it's a 4-drop a non-negligible amount of the time, but getting your 2-drop and your 3-drop into the graveyard by turn 4 is not normal.
All in all, Sultai Scavenger is fine, but I don't agree that it's superior to Singing Bell Strike.
I've played with the Scavenger a lot, and it's very good. It's not just how fast you can power out a 3/3 flier, but that you can play a 3/3 flier for 2-3 mana and have flip mana/removal mana open after playing an evasive threat.
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Admittedly I haven't seen a delve-focused Sultai deck that can reliably get value from its graveyard yet, and I've been developing a suspicion that they just aren't "a thing." That could turn out to be totally wrong, and obviously Sultai Scavenger would look a lot better there. For the time being, I think it's basically "fine", which is similar to how I rate Singing Bell Strike.
On another topic, I don't really agree with this notion that a forum draft has to go perfectly or even well. We learn very little from a draft that goes by the numbers, what's important isn't that everyone votes for what's right (or what you personally vote for) it's that we talk about our picks and our reasoning. Forum drafts or similarly mtgo draft streams with an interactive chat are often interesting or informative because you find yourself with such a strange pool of cards and are forced to make decisions comparing cards or weighing risks you otherwise wouldn't often see. Even if the majority goes against your personal pick every vote, what matters is simply that you do vote with a clear understanding of why you are voting for that choice and keep an open mind and open ear to other thoughts and opinions to see if any conflicting points strike you as especially salient or logical so you can incorporate that idea into your reasoning the next time you make a similar choice.
WUBRGWBGURW
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RGWUBRWBGUR
GWUBRGURWBG
I can definitely see merit in that, but what I'd really like to be able to talk about is evaluating cards based on more advanced issues, like what the curve for a particular archetype ought to look like, or whether certain synergies can outweigh a card being generally weak. But since forum drafts always seem to be about how to salvage a trainwreck, we never get there.
You're right, though, I shouldn't complain. I do still value the chance to see differing perspectives (even if you're all wrong :p).
To your credit i think your post is probably the most important one in the pick 2 thread so far. Jacob Wilson just did a channel fireball article where this was one of his points. Over the course of 3 hours and 29 posts no one assumed we shouldn't be attached at the hip to master the way and remain open to power over going all in on our first pick. One guy picked scavenger seemingly out of spite for the first pick and many could have picked bell strike for the right reasons but no one really vocalized what was important, in my mind, to that decision yet. So even if you don't get a lot out of it i think your participation is super important for those that are.
worldthread so cruel?For one thing, the packs have not had any stellar, clear picks so far, so claiming that card X or Y should not be a 2nd pick is off-base, IMO. There are no card in this pack that are happy 2nd-pick.
As far as curve goes, taking the snowhorn is a proper startegy curve-wise. It's a morph. The problem is that the pack we got had few mono-colors morph in them. We had the roost 21 flyer in pack one and that's it, I believe. So, we've been stuck debating 4th-5th drops so far. mostly, except if we want to take a 3-colors morph.
... but then a lot of drafters are currently wary of making a heavy color commitment in the first picks. That's one problem with the community draft: some are more risk averse than other, but the balance can shift from pick to pick, so we will probably get incoherent picks as far as risk/reward goes.
Finally, saying that we're married to UR to explain warden of the eye or snowhorn rider is a bit disingeneous, IMO. Yes, sultai scavenger is a fine card, but those two also are and have the advantage of staying on-course.
Furthermore, if the packs are deep enough, and given that all commons are single-colors, I think it will be easy to fill-out whatever clan you pick early with commons in later picks, as long as your immediate neighbour is not in the same clan. I'd have to think that picking warden and passing scavenger + rider gives us chances that they will go into those colors. After all, for the drafter receive this pack for 3rd pick, I think scavenger, bell and rider are the possible choices and none of them push them hard into Jeskai.
PS: as for delve, I think a delve deck can support at least 5 cards, more if you take enabler. (And you should take enablers.) In my pre-release, delve deck worked very well and had no trouble delving. I think paying 4 for teh scavenger would be the norm.
Would've had the Black Delve flier (P1P1) + this guy, so I would head off to the 'trainwreck' draft department and rare draft!
I got wrecked by this guy, there's lots of good removal and Sultai is a good one to draft. Maybe I'm just being daft and contrarian, but, I seriously take this guy. (I would never play Master in my deck, I just don't see it happening, sorry!).
/or bad drafter is bad
(Edit; Also because it's a community draft, I like to listen to people's point of view, but I will draft my own deck and compare it to the community one afterwards).
This works for the first few picks, but once you get into the end of the first pack and the other two packs, your early selections affect the available picks later on in the draft. So you can't really "draft your own deck," since the packs won't be an accurate representation of what would be passed to you later on.