Well, WotC thinks Sky Diamond etc. are too powerful for Standard & Limited. I'm not sure I agree with that, but two mana for an untapped multicolor mana source is probably too much. In green, two mana gets you something like Voyaging Satyr or Rampant Growth, which can't make mana until the following turn. So if the banners were two mana, they'd have to come into play tapped, and they'd still be seen as pretty pushed.
They usually see something like Manalith as the sweet spot. In some sets that's fine (the Keyrunes in RTR being one of the better executions of this) but it does not co-exist well with Morphs in KTK. The fact that it's an "artifacts don't matter" set also doesn't help.
Two mana would be way too powerful in my view. If you could cycle a banner to get two cards, then I would probably lean toward playing one unless I had a large number of fixing lands, but I would still sideboard it out against an aggressive opponent. I am glad that they are how they are now, being usable in a deck which needs it.
I've never actually played Jeskai yet because I keep getting passed Mardu. But, in a deck that's heavy on prowess and short on morphs, I think that it may be decent to run one or two Jeskai Banners. Perhaps 17 land + Jeskai Banner?
Just a thought and some speculation. Like many here, I have never played a banner.
I played one in my last vilanous wealth sultai deck and it worked great. Other than that deck, I don't see the point in them though.
Edit: Side rant: in one game I vil wealthed for X=7 and got... nothing! He had 7 lands on top of his deck. I was so outraged at that kind of BS luck that I made 2 play errors in the next game to lose the match. I did end up 2-1 in the draft, but come on!
I played one in my last vilanous wealth sultai deck and it worked great. Other than that deck, I don't see the point in them though.
Edit: Side rant: in one game I vil wealthed for X=7 and got... nothing! He had 7 lands on top of his deck. I was so outraged at that kind of BS luck that I made 2 play errors in the next game to lose the match. I did end up 2-1 in the draft, but come on!
I've seen Villainous Wealth whiff so hard, and so comically, on so many occasions. VW for 6, which is where you're most likely to play it, will on average net about 3 spells. But it's quite common to net only 2 or 1 spells. I had an opponent VW me for 7 and get a single Seeker of the Way, which was not nearly enough to save my opponent who was facing a much better developed board. There ain't no fizzle like a Villainous Wealth fizzle - you're so expecting just huge bombs to drop onto your side of the board and you get a single little turd instead. Very deflating.
Couldn't they just have had something like manalith at common though? Between banners and cluestones i understand what the function is meant to be but no one really wants them and 1 common slot with a more prismatic source of fixing rather than clan/guild colored would probably still fill the needs of the very few decks at the table that needs one of those while freeing up 4 common artifact slots in the set for more interesting designs.
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Side rant: in one game I vil wealthed for X=7 and got... nothing! He had 7 lands on top of his deck. I was so outraged at that kind of BS luck that I made 2 play errors in the next game to lose the match. I did end up 2-1 in the draft, but come on!
On the other hand, with 7 lands on top of his deck, he surely would have lost otherwise due to his own bad luck...
Yeah, it basically is the Cluestones. Those weren't good either, and they looked especially awful next to the Keyrunes from the other two sets. Keyrunes are just a lot better.
Yeah, it basically is the Cluestones. Those weren't good either, and they looked especially awful next to the Keyrunes from the other two sets. Keyrunes are just a lot better.
I agree a lot with the Keyrunes, since they can ramp a bit/animate, although the only one I've used before is Rakdos Keyrune.
Also, these cluestones and banners are seem bad enough that even EDH doesn't give a space for them.
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Also, these cluestones and banners are seem bad enough that even EDH doesn't give a space for them.
Just a minor derail...EDH doesn't mean you play bad cards. EDH has access to all the best mana fixing ever made throughout Magic's history. Cluestones and banners don't even come anywhere close to that.
As for banners in KTK limited, you can't spend your third turn not laying a morph or something better. If KTK wasn't a tempo based format chock full of 3 drops, maybe they would be useful.
Funny thing is Wizards wanted to help limited with ample mana fixing. Turns out that this cycle isn't actually needed. Waste of design slots in most respects. If there was a shard/wedge that plays well with artifacts, banners might be a serviceable option. As people mentioned, Keyrunes could have been key to unlocking their playability.
Making a wedge-bot would have been better
Sultai-Bot 3
Artifact creature T: Add B, G, or U to your mana pool
1/2
But I guess Tarkir hasn't advanced in technology yet.
i think i read someplace that they didn't want to do Manalith-like cards (by which i mean cards that can add any colour mana) because they wanted it so that if you take fixing, you'd be (at least somewhat) be committing yourself to a clan? or, to put it another way, that a certain piece of mana fixing is far more useful in certain decks, and worthless in other decks? [there was a limited-theory term for this, .. was there?]
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some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul "no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
What if the banners were like Tri Filters?
This example
[Temur] Banner
3
Artifact
G, Tap: Add RU, UG, or RG to your mana pool
RUG, Sac [Temur Banner], draw a card
There will be no change in cards today in observance of turkey comas.
I've played a Banner once or twice when I was desperate for fixing (which means I'm playing 3+ colors and not worried about the tempo loss.) They're bad filler. Too bad there's not a good ramp deck in the format.
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My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
I like Jeskai Ascendancy a lot. It makes combat very difficult for the opponent as long as you have mana up for a potential instant. If I have two 3/3s and your only creature, a 3/3, is tapped from having attacked during your turn, and you have 2 lands untapped, should I attack with both? Usually heck yeah, but after I declare attacks you could Force Away one of my creatures (and loot from it due to Ferocious) and block my other 3/3 with your now untapped 4/4, plus you get to loot a second time from the ascendancy. Usually the situation is not as clear-cut of a mostly-blowout like that, but still it's a very powerful effect in my view.
Situational but worth it as long as you have enough non-creature spells, especially decent instants.
I'm not a fan. The potential power level is there but for me ktk is a very meat and potatoes curve centric format and i mostly just want creatures at every opportunity, which means i'm even above the normal 15ish creature count i'm more in the 16-18 range which means i'm ideally only running 4-6 noncreature spells. I'm also not really a fan of jeskai, or rather UR in general, i'm much more likely to be WR and only splash the blue if i need to run some weaponmasters or a treasure cruise or a decent blue finisher like thousand winds or riverwheel aerialists. So the hoops it asks me to jump through are hitting all 3 of those colors about on time and playing an enchantment that doesn't really do anything by itself and even with help what it does might not matter, like a feat of resistance is already a fine spell that will probably win me a combat at some point without the stat bump and untap effect, or like a kill shot killing their only attacking creature again the pump and untap is irrelevant. Although the looting would always be welcome there are just too many conditions for this to be worth more than almost any random morph at the same cost but colorless.
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My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
They usually see something like Manalith as the sweet spot. In some sets that's fine (the Keyrunes in RTR being one of the better executions of this) but it does not co-exist well with Morphs in KTK. The fact that it's an "artifacts don't matter" set also doesn't help.
Two mana for an artifact that immediately makes three colors of mana? And you can cycle it in the late game? That would be way too strong.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
Just a thought and some speculation. Like many here, I have never played a banner.
Edit: Side rant: in one game I vil wealthed for X=7 and got... nothing! He had 7 lands on top of his deck. I was so outraged at that kind of BS luck that I made 2 play errors in the next game to lose the match. I did end up 2-1 in the draft, but come on!
I've seen Villainous Wealth whiff so hard, and so comically, on so many occasions. VW for 6, which is where you're most likely to play it, will on average net about 3 spells. But it's quite common to net only 2 or 1 spells. I had an opponent VW me for 7 and get a single Seeker of the Way, which was not nearly enough to save my opponent who was facing a much better developed board. There ain't no fizzle like a Villainous Wealth fizzle - you're so expecting just huge bombs to drop onto your side of the board and you get a single little turd instead. Very deflating.
On the other hand, with 7 lands on top of his deck, he surely would have lost otherwise due to his own bad luck...
I had a Balustrade Spy hit 13 cards once. Classic!
I agree a lot with the Keyrunes, since they can ramp a bit/animate, although the only one I've used before is Rakdos Keyrune.
Also, these cluestones and banners are seem bad enough that even EDH doesn't give a space for them.
Just a minor derail...EDH doesn't mean you play bad cards. EDH has access to all the best mana fixing ever made throughout Magic's history. Cluestones and banners don't even come anywhere close to that.
As for banners in KTK limited, you can't spend your third turn not laying a morph or something better. If KTK wasn't a tempo based format chock full of 3 drops, maybe they would be useful.
Making a wedge-bot would have been better
Sultai-Bot 3
Artifact creature
T: Add B, G, or U to your mana pool
1/2
But I guess Tarkir hasn't advanced in technology yet.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
This example
[Temur] Banner
3
Artifact
G, Tap: Add RU, UG, or RG to your mana pool
RUG, Sac [Temur Banner], draw a card
What if the banner drew 2 cards (with appropriate costing)? Or do something that fits the clan?
I believe either of them might make banners (and their ilk) more appealing to play in draft.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I've played a Banner once or twice when I was desperate for fixing (which means I'm playing 3+ colors and not worried about the tempo loss.) They're bad filler. Too bad there's not a good ramp deck in the format.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
Situational but worth it as long as you have enough non-creature spells, especially decent instants.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge