I haven't read all the pages past a few of the original posts, but my take on the limited 40 card deck 17 lands.
I've gone to 18 in early Khans due to the 3 colors or that time in RtR block when I had a 4 color defender deck with literally 3 cards in red, main blue green black (I was doing badly so I said to heck with it and built a second deck and actually won with it), I've gone to 16 or even 15 if some chance in hell let's me go one color or barely splash a second and didn't require double of the secondary color to cast/had proper mana makers, and I find it varies in regards to lands but that 16-18 is a good number to keep as a baseline then adjust if needed.
As to Deck Size of 40 cards, I've gone over and it's fine, sometimes adjusted to be more than 40 on account of having one too many draw effects. Going back to Khans I had a 45 card deck because of Temur, and having Weave Fates, Treasure Cruises, and fun amounts of draw effects meant I was risking deck out, and the extra cards helped me win in a stall game against someone else also running about the same amount of draw effects. In short if you are worried you might use one too many draw effects, go above 40, maybe even hit the magic answer of 42.
I haven't read all the pages past a few of the original posts, but my take on the limited 40 card deck 17 lands.
I've gone to 18 in early Khans due to the 3 colors or that time in RtR block when I had a 4 color defender deck with literally 3 cards in red, main blue green black (I was doing badly so I said to heck with it and built a second deck and actually won with it), I've gone to 16 or even 15 if some chance in hell let's me go one color or barely splash a second and didn't require double of the secondary color to cast/had proper mana makers, and I find it varies in regards to lands but that 16-18 is a good number to keep as a baseline then adjust if needed.
As to Deck Size of 40 cards, I've gone over and it's fine, sometimes adjusted to be more than 40 on account of having one too many draw effects. Going back to Khans I had a 45 card deck because of Temur, and having Weave Fates, Treasure Cruises, and fun amounts of draw effects meant I was risking deck out, and the extra cards helped me win in a stall game against someone else also running about the same amount of draw effects. In short if you are worried you might use one too many draw effects, go above 40, maybe even hit the magic answer of 42.
Wouldn't it be more efficient to run a 40 card deck with fewer draw spells? If you're over 40 cards and you have a Treasure Cruise you can usually cut Weave Fate. Or vice versa if you really feel you won't be able to delve reliably. If I thought I was going to be in a super-grindy Sultai mirror match I'd run Dutiful Return before I'd run 45 cards.
Game 1 -- There are 5 black envelopes. One has $100; the others have $5 each. The envelopes are sealed (you cannot see their contents) and they are randomly shuffled. You can choose exactly two envelopes at random and keep the contents. You do not get to use the other three envelopes. Best case you leave with $105. But in many scenarios both envelopes you pick have only $5 each, so you just get $10.
Game 2 -- Same thing as game 1, except there is a 6th envelope added containing $5. You only get to take 2 of the 6 envelopes.
Which game would you rather play?
Obviously Game 1, since Game 1 gives you a higher chance of picking the envelope with the $100 bill. When you add the extra "low value" ($5) envelope to the mix, even if it is equal value to the other low value ones, it just reduces your chances of getting the best one. So game 2 is worse. Obviously if the 6th envelope is even lower in value (e.g. $3), then it is even worse.
This is a metaphor for 40 vs 41 cards. It's a bit oversimplified. For one, the power differential between your best card and your worst card isn't as extreme as $100 vs $5 (though in Limited there is still a HUGE difference between your best and worst card). For another, different deck compositions don't necessarily draw the same number of cards over the course of a game (depending on what cards you include, a deck may stall longer or draw more cards than in another configuration), so picking exactly 2 envelopes in every game isn't quite an accurate representation. However, it is fair to say that in most Limited formats the average game length is < 10 turns, so most people are drawing less than half their deck most of the time. Anyway, I think the broad point still applies: adding that extra envelope (or card) dilutes the overall quality of your deck. If you feel you really need that 41st card, there may be another card you don't actually need.
The reason people are so adamant about 40 vs 41 despite the fact that it's not a huge percentage is that it's not hard to stop making the mistake. You might make a different mistake when deciding which card to cut, but that's a more difficult task - people can and do spend the entire life cycle of formats discussing this. But you ought to try! If your motivation for playing 41 is that you just like the warm satisfying feeling of the number 41, then sure, those are your priorities. But if you find yourself thinking "I would like to win this game of Magic" and your deck is 41 cards, I can tell you one thing you shoulda done.
I haven't read all the pages past a few of the original posts, but my take on the limited 40 card deck 17 lands.
I've gone to 18 in early Khans due to the 3 colors or that time in RtR block when I had a 4 color defender deck with literally 3 cards in red, main blue green black (I was doing badly so I said to heck with it and built a second deck and actually won with it), I've gone to 16 or even 15 if some chance in hell let's me go one color or barely splash a second and didn't require double of the secondary color to cast/had proper mana makers, and I find it varies in regards to lands but that 16-18 is a good number to keep as a baseline then adjust if needed.
As to Deck Size of 40 cards, I've gone over and it's fine, sometimes adjusted to be more than 40 on account of having one too many draw effects. Going back to Khans I had a 45 card deck because of Temur, and having Weave Fates, Treasure Cruises, and fun amounts of draw effects meant I was risking deck out, and the extra cards helped me win in a stall game against someone else also running about the same amount of draw effects. In short if you are worried you might use one too many draw effects, go above 40, maybe even hit the magic answer of 42.
I know this may be sacrilege, but at a certain point just drawing cards for cards sake isn't a winning strategy. If you're decking yourself from just card draw, it means you should be putting more ways to close out the game in there. You're talking about going to turn 25.
I know this may be sacrilege, but at a certain point just drawing cards for cards sake isn't a winning strategy. If you're decking yourself from just card draw, it means you should be putting more ways to close out the game in there. You're talking about going to turn 25.
Oh no, entirely true, it wasn't the best strategy but it came out of a weird necessity for card advantage, most of the games I end up in aren't what one would call "normal", my pairings just usually end up being weird. That being said I have gone over turn 20 in sealed several times before when it turns into a staring match.
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I've gone to 18 in early Khans due to the 3 colors or that time in RtR block when I had a 4 color defender deck with literally 3 cards in red, main blue green black (I was doing badly so I said to heck with it and built a second deck and actually won with it), I've gone to 16 or even 15 if some chance in hell let's me go one color or barely splash a second and didn't require double of the secondary color to cast/had proper mana makers, and I find it varies in regards to lands but that 16-18 is a good number to keep as a baseline then adjust if needed.
As to Deck Size of 40 cards, I've gone over and it's fine, sometimes adjusted to be more than 40 on account of having one too many draw effects. Going back to Khans I had a 45 card deck because of Temur, and having Weave Fates, Treasure Cruises, and fun amounts of draw effects meant I was risking deck out, and the extra cards helped me win in a stall game against someone else also running about the same amount of draw effects. In short if you are worried you might use one too many draw effects, go above 40, maybe even hit the magic answer of 42.
Wouldn't it be more efficient to run a 40 card deck with fewer draw spells? If you're over 40 cards and you have a Treasure Cruise you can usually cut Weave Fate. Or vice versa if you really feel you won't be able to delve reliably. If I thought I was going to be in a super-grindy Sultai mirror match I'd run Dutiful Return before I'd run 45 cards.
He worded it badly.
Game 1 -- There are 5 black envelopes. One has $100; the others have $5 each. The envelopes are sealed (you cannot see their contents) and they are randomly shuffled. You can choose exactly two envelopes at random and keep the contents. You do not get to use the other three envelopes. Best case you leave with $105. But in many scenarios both envelopes you pick have only $5 each, so you just get $10.
Game 2 -- Same thing as game 1, except there is a 6th envelope added containing $5. You only get to take 2 of the 6 envelopes.
Which game would you rather play?
Obviously Game 1, since Game 1 gives you a higher chance of picking the envelope with the $100 bill. When you add the extra "low value" ($5) envelope to the mix, even if it is equal value to the other low value ones, it just reduces your chances of getting the best one. So game 2 is worse. Obviously if the 6th envelope is even lower in value (e.g. $3), then it is even worse.
This is a metaphor for 40 vs 41 cards. It's a bit oversimplified. For one, the power differential between your best card and your worst card isn't as extreme as $100 vs $5 (though in Limited there is still a HUGE difference between your best and worst card). For another, different deck compositions don't necessarily draw the same number of cards over the course of a game (depending on what cards you include, a deck may stall longer or draw more cards than in another configuration), so picking exactly 2 envelopes in every game isn't quite an accurate representation. However, it is fair to say that in most Limited formats the average game length is < 10 turns, so most people are drawing less than half their deck most of the time. Anyway, I think the broad point still applies: adding that extra envelope (or card) dilutes the overall quality of your deck. If you feel you really need that 41st card, there may be another card you don't actually need.
I know this may be sacrilege, but at a certain point just drawing cards for cards sake isn't a winning strategy. If you're decking yourself from just card draw, it means you should be putting more ways to close out the game in there. You're talking about going to turn 25.
Oh no, entirely true, it wasn't the best strategy but it came out of a weird necessity for card advantage, most of the games I end up in aren't what one would call "normal", my pairings just usually end up being weird. That being said I have gone over turn 20 in sealed several times before when it turns into a staring match.