The rules reply is from Natedogg, so I'd call it very reliable.
Question Is targeting mandatory even for effects that are optional for the target?
For example with Alaborn Cavalier do I have to select a target and then decide if I want to tap said target or not
Answer Yes, you have to choose a legal target for the ability. The choice of whether or not to use the ability happens on resolution, but you still need to choose a target for it. With the Cavalier, you have to choose a target, even if you intend not to tap it when the ability resolves.
Can anyone confirm this?? I registered to say that DSF must be confused here. You sound like a knowledgable dude and I don't mean disrespect, but the way you're interpreting this card is completely ass-backwards and there's no way I can fathom you being correct on this.
Oh, he's quite correct, it's not an interpretation. Templating for Magic rules text doesn't always follow linguistic logic, unfortunately. It doesn't matter that the 'target' clause comes in a later sentence than the cost. The way the rules work, you choose a target when you put the triggered ability on the stack. Then you choose whether or not to pay on resolution. Since it's all one triggered ability, there is no alternative that works with the rules. The most relevant rules I could find are listed here:
Quote from Comp Rules »
114.1d A triggered ability is targeted if it identifies something it will affect by using the phrase “target [something],” where the “something” is a phrase that describes an object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the ability is put on the stack; see rule 603.3d.
603.5. Some triggered abilities’ effects are optional (they contain “may,” as in “At the beginning of your upkeep, you may draw a card”). These abilities go on the stack when they trigger, regardless of whether their controller intends to exercise the ability’s option or not. The choice is made when the ability resolves.
Another example, which came up once in awhile with Fate Reforged was Yasova Dragonclaw against a Frost Walker. You can target and kill the Frost Walker with Yasova's triggered ability without paying mana for it. As DSF mentioned, this is very clear if you played with cards like Yasova at all on MTGO, because you will be asked to choose a target before choosing whether or not to pay.
Contrast this with templating for Exploit abilities. Silumgar Butcher has two separate triggered abilities. When the Exploit keyword ability is on the stack, it doesn't target anything. After you exploit a creature, a new triggered ability goes on the stack that targets a creature to give -3/-3. That's the way to make a triggered ability with a kind of cost that only targets after the cost is paid.
Thanks for the detailed reply Locke_Daemonfire. Much appreciated.
Can I just say that is absolutely insane and, IMHO, a clear flaw in the rules of the game. There's no way you should be able to target something without actually doing anything. What a joke.
Glad to say I don't play competitive and our friend group essentially interprets the rules as we see fit based on arguing about it lol. I would quit a game if someone tried to pull this BS on me
burritolover, I totally get it. When I came back to the game around the original Ravnica block my friends and I misplayed cards like Frenzied Goblin all the time. Playing Magic Online dramatically increased my knowledge of the nitty gritty details of the rules because it doesn't gloss over anything, even when it would harmless to do so. It's essentially the only reason I understand how cards like this are "supposed" to work.
Yeah, all the triggering/priority etc. is actually the main hinderance to me enjoying MTGO. I love drafting and have been playing the free ones on there lately but the length of time and mouse clicks required to play the game drives me crazy.
Mind you, my friend group are the kind of players who draw before we untap, never ever ever ask about priority, take things back after casting them cause we're baked etc. So my patience for finicky details is pretty limited.
Thanks for explaining the rules though. Excellent job spotting that combo DSF - that's the best I've seen with Willbreaker
Yeah, all the triggering/priority etc. is actually the main hinderance to me enjoying MTGO. I love drafting and have been playing the free ones on there lately but the length of time and mouse clicks required to play the game drives me crazy.
Mind you, my friend group are the kind of players who draw before we untap, never ever ever ask about priority, take things back after casting them cause we're baked etc. So my patience for finicky details is pretty limited.
Thanks for explaining the rules though. Excellent job spotting that combo DSF - that's the best I've seen with Willbreaker
True, but you could probably get multiple Akroan Jailers much more easily. Plus it's a flavor win!
One combo that came up in draft was when I had a bunch of little elves and a Gnarlroot Trapper facing down an opposing bomb. I attacked with my elves leaving the Trapper up and then give Deathtouch to an Elf Warrior token who survived the attack in the End Combat Phase. Wild Instincts then took down my opponent's bomb (along with my brave little Elf Warrior) in the second Main Phase. Timing is important here because the elf must be attacking to get Deathtouch, but that effect stays til the End of Turn.
Another seemingly obvious one, but I had some devastating turns at the prerelease with act of treason + fiery conclusion. The tempo gain was just so difficult to overcome. I'd get in with their turn 4 or 5 fatty, plus my 3 drop and kill their usually tapped 3 or 4 drop and their fatty. It just really sucks when you're holding that combo and they're sniping your life total down with thopters and goblin tokens.
Its very similar to Restoration Angel and Phantasmal Image. If all you had was an Image, you had no choice but to sac it if you played an Angel.
Okay, we're getting way off topic here, but Restoration Angel says may in the text, so you could choose to target no creature, correct?
If a triggered ability has a target, you have to choose a target (if you can) before the ability can go on the stack. Only when the ability resolve do you choose Yes/No for may abilities.
The only way for a Phantasmal Image to not be targeted is if it was an angel and thus an illegal target. Then your Resto's ability fizzles without going on the stack.
It's a rules quirk that the word "may" does not mean you may select a target or not, it means you may perform the action on the target or not. The wording that actually lets you optionally select a target or not is "up to one".
Graveblade Marauder + Chandra's Ignition : Wipe their board (and the rest of yours) trigger marauder once, swing on an empty board and trigger him again! (this time for more if you had creatures that died from ignition)
My favorite 2 combos of the set use a rare but are definitely worth mentioning.
Nantuko Husk + Chandra's Ignition + (Fodder creatures, Dragon fodder makes a great example)= Insane game ender. Make husk a 10/10, drop ignition, swing for the win
Malakir Cullblade + Touch of Moonglove + Chandra's Ignition is equally evil. Just be sure your field is clear or you take punishment. It turns a full elf or goblin field into a huge cull blade plus 2 damage for each creature you hit to the opponent.
If I understand it right, casting undead servant while flameshadow conjuring is in play and having any number of undead servants (hopefully 2 or more) in the grave nets you a crap ton of zombies.
Flameshadow Conjuring + separatist voidmage is the most obvious combo with flameshadow. You bounce your own voidmage and one of thier creatures then do it every turn.
http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-qa/threads/4106866
The rules reply is from Natedogg, so I'd call it very reliable.
http://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/20765
Oh, he's quite correct, it's not an interpretation. Templating for Magic rules text doesn't always follow linguistic logic, unfortunately. It doesn't matter that the 'target' clause comes in a later sentence than the cost. The way the rules work, you choose a target when you put the triggered ability on the stack. Then you choose whether or not to pay on resolution. Since it's all one triggered ability, there is no alternative that works with the rules. The most relevant rules I could find are listed here:
Another example, which came up once in awhile with Fate Reforged was Yasova Dragonclaw against a Frost Walker. You can target and kill the Frost Walker with Yasova's triggered ability without paying mana for it. As DSF mentioned, this is very clear if you played with cards like Yasova at all on MTGO, because you will be asked to choose a target before choosing whether or not to pay.
Contrast this with templating for Exploit abilities. Silumgar Butcher has two separate triggered abilities. When the Exploit keyword ability is on the stack, it doesn't target anything. After you exploit a creature, a new triggered ability goes on the stack that targets a creature to give -3/-3. That's the way to make a triggered ability with a kind of cost that only targets after the cost is paid.
Can I just say that is absolutely insane and, IMHO, a clear flaw in the rules of the game. There's no way you should be able to target something without actually doing anything. What a joke.
Glad to say I don't play competitive and our friend group essentially interprets the rules as we see fit based on arguing about it lol. I would quit a game if someone tried to pull this BS on me
burritolover, I totally get it. When I came back to the game around the original Ravnica block my friends and I misplayed cards like Frenzied Goblin all the time. Playing Magic Online dramatically increased my knowledge of the nitty gritty details of the rules because it doesn't gloss over anything, even when it would harmless to do so. It's essentially the only reason I understand how cards like this are "supposed" to work.
Mind you, my friend group are the kind of players who draw before we untap, never ever ever ask about priority, take things back after casting them cause we're baked etc. So my patience for finicky details is pretty limited.
Thanks for explaining the rules though. Excellent job spotting that combo DSF - that's the best I've seen with Willbreaker
Credit goes to Brofoux for the Sig pic.
Current Modern Deck
Black Licorice
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11006564#post11006564
Well it was lordatog who first pointed it out.
True, but you could probably get multiple Akroan Jailers much more easily. Plus it's a flavor win!
One combo that came up in draft was when I had a bunch of little elves and a Gnarlroot Trapper facing down an opposing bomb. I attacked with my elves leaving the Trapper up and then give Deathtouch to an Elf Warrior token who survived the attack in the End Combat Phase. Wild Instincts then took down my opponent's bomb (along with my brave little Elf Warrior) in the second Main Phase. Timing is important here because the elf must be attacking to get Deathtouch, but that effect stays til the End of Turn.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
Okay, we're getting way off topic here, but Restoration Angel says may in the text, so you could choose to target no creature, correct?
No, you have to choose a target if you can, but can then choose not to flicker what you targetted.
If a triggered ability has a target, you have to choose a target (if you can) before the ability can go on the stack. Only when the ability resolve do you choose Yes/No for may abilities.
The only way for a Phantasmal Image to not be targeted is if it was an angel and thus an illegal target. Then your Resto's ability fizzles without going on the stack.
Nantuko Husk + Chandra's Ignition + (Fodder creatures, Dragon fodder makes a great example)= Insane game ender. Make husk a 10/10, drop ignition, swing for the win
Malakir Cullblade + Touch of Moonglove + Chandra's Ignition is equally evil. Just be sure your field is clear or you take punishment. It turns a full elf or goblin field into a huge cull blade plus 2 damage for each creature you hit to the opponent.
Evolutionary Leap and Flameshadow Conjuring.
R Norin the Wary: I've Got a Bad Feeling About This
UG Thrasios & Kydele: Knowledge is Power
RG Borborygmos Enraged: The Breaking of the World
BG The Gitrog Monster: All Glory to the Hypnotoad
WUR Zedruu the Greathearted: Endless Possibilities, One Outcome
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain: What's Dead May Never Die
Turn your junk into something great with PucaTrade!
Is it bad? Probably. Hilarious? Absolutely
This set is quite combo/synergeristic.
eye-blight masscare + reave soul on thier bigger dude.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own