It seems like a lot of the people who enjoy Kaladesh are playing a completely different format.
In what world is Inventor's Goggles, an archetype role-player, even close to Freighter in terms of pick orders? How is looping Scavengers a powerful build-around as opposed to a cute interaction that can occur in certain gamestates (you won't always have a way to get one into the 'yard)? Why/how does an overcosted Bonesplitter win games?
It seems like a lot of the people who enjoy Kaladesh are playing a completely different format.
In what world is Inventor's Goggles, an archetype role-player, even close to Freighter in terms of pick orders? How is looping Scavengers a powerful build-around as opposed to a cute interaction that can occur in certain gamestates (you won't always have a way to get one into the 'yard)? Why/how does an overcosted Bonesplitter win games?
I think by "a lot of the people", you're referring to "that one person". The truth lies somewhere in the middle of the two extremes: I've had super grindy/silly decks work, and hyper aggro ones work as well. I've come around to the format as a whole: I currently think it's above average, since I like it better than SoI and RTR, but worse than EDM/Khans/etc.
A three mana 3/4 with "the first creature spell you cast each turn gains haste" is probably worse than Renegade Freighter. Maybe if the 3/4 also had banding and trample.
A lot of the good blockers in this format have 4 toughness. 4 toughness is enough to blank all the early aggro creatures, and it would stop a 3/4 and hasty 2/2. But a 5/4 trample stomps right over it. Freighter lets aggro use its small dorks to push through big blockers and token blockers. It just makes blocking sucks. Also, having one 5/4 trample body instead of two smaller bodies synergizes a lot better with all the top combat tricks.
I've played 5 4-man drafts in the beginner section (even though there was folks there who obviously knew what they were doing). I'm not a remotely new, I just didn't do much MTGO. I can't for the life of me understand what all the whining is about. Every combination seems playable, and it's possible to grind out wins with commons and uncommons outside of energy / vehicle cheezing. I'm also not sure what's up with a lot of whining about mana screw and flood - I've seen other people get screwed and I was flooded here or there, but not enough that it'd be noticeable. If anything, there's ungodly ammounts of removal in there, but the set seems fun, interesting and deeper than it looks at first glance. Also, not exactly a beatdown format, in most games I've played the beatdown player (in-match beatdown player) lost, whether it was me or the other guy. The exception was the draft I did win, but my red-black thing was fairly ridiculous (had the 3/3 for 2 looting copter and the very nice midnight oil, and some other inconspicuous but sneakily rather good stuff like the Night Market Lookout person).
I'd say the problem is that the bombs are too frequent. It looks like one of those formats where just about everyone has several comparatively ridiculous cards in their deck and beatdown looks appealing enough to attempt but not quite up there with midrange or control. In a refreshing turn of events (dunno why it felt like that), the obligatory blue perma-tapdown aura thingy is format defining (as in you put it on that train thing and it sits there not doing much, and you're blue, and it's an artifact, go figure...). Also the turtle which keeps growing is all kinds of stupid, the rhino is pretty silly, but the turtle is just brutal. Also the gearhulk killing cheap gremlin is rather good, makes inexperienced opponents reluctant to put the pain train down so it doesn't get blasted, screws up their development quite a bit much. There's some RUG thing everyone seems to be trying to draft which works off the fact that if you live long enough one silly card is going to be one silly card too many for the opponent. But the only 2 - 0 matches I was in were matches I won, my every loss was a 2-1, most of the time narrow, often because of a drunken mistake or inexperience with the interface, and I never drafted any of the seemingly standard RUG "best stuff".
Don't see what's up with all the "I'm sitting MtG out while this lasts". It's no Oddysey (THAT's a thinking man's draft), but it's not terrible at all. Dunno about design space and depth, but they could make all the mechanics evergreen and put them in every set as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I don't think I've seen a set since Innistrad which made me want to just play MtG as much this one does.
I honestly can't decide what i think of the set as a whole
I think that there is a certain amount of poor construction on the whole but i also really like the set it's grindy it focuses on the creatures as much as the spells. Grindy matches that i lose i'm always more likely to end with a smile and offer the handshake than the hyper control possibilities I've seen in other sets. While it's lacking in certain color aspects thats mostly because of standard but i even find standard right now to be more fun especially since i'm playing outside the rock-paper scissorsy-ness of the format. i just think that while it's not the strongest set it is good
Feel free to not like this set, but it's VERY well designed. Can you imagine how hard it is to make a set that is dominated by an aggro card (Renegade Freighter) but doesn't manage to devolve into Zendikar or even Magic:Origins.
They did this by making Aggro powerful, but actually difficult to force. The 2 drops generally suck (there are exceptions) so it can be hard to draft a good all-in aggro deck (although you can drop into 1 drops, with all the gambling that entails).
This set is basically Magic: Origins but with build-arounds that actually work (because aggro itself is basically a build-around difficulty level of drafting)
it might just be the effect of people starting to avoid it, but I find that lately I've often been ending up in blue and getting good results. I'm in love with U/B at this point, U/W flicker is value town when you get it working and skies has won me drafts, U/R mixes energy and artifacts matters pretty much perfectly letting you pay an aggressive deck with a viable late game. U/G is the only one I'm not thrilled with. Actually, I feel Green is in the weirdest place in the format, because its just so stupidly strong when paired with red and somewhat less broken when paired with white, mediocre (in my experience) with Blue, and terrible when paired with black (B/G is pretty unplayable).
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Feel free to not like this set, but it's VERY well designed.
I can't call a set that:
-has too few mana-sinks to mitigate the impact of land flood
-makes the overwhelming majority of the cards, especially those dealing with two of the new marquee mechanics, much better on offense than on the defensive, regardless of power level (e.g. most Vehicles are loaded with abilities that on work when attacking and most energy sinks only trigger on attack)
-has a resource pool that cannot be interacted with by the opponents
all that well designed. Yeah, sure, there are a lot of cute interactions and the modular nature of the set is a breath of fresh air after numerous blocks of high-synergy, "on-rails" (a bit of hyperbole) drafting, but these positives don't really outweigh the negatives. It's a set that can be fun to draft, but is all too often miserable to play as a result of many design flubs (and some mistakes on development's part as well, to be fair).
Can you imagine how hard it is to make a set that is dominated by an aggro card (Renegade Freighter) but doesn't manage to devolve into Zendikar or even Magic:Origins.
They did this by making Aggro powerful, but actually difficult to force. The 2 drops generally suck (there are exceptions) so it can be hard to draft a good all-in aggro deck (although you can drop into 1 drops, with all the gambling that entails).
It's pretty easy to draft an aggro deck; just grab some good cards in the 2-4 slots, and then hope to win the die roll, curve out, and beat face. Just like any other set that has a paucity of good blockers and a glut of stronger attackers. Most aggro decks in Limited, even in sets like Origins, aren't going to be as low curve as a Constructed deck, so it isn't that hard to throw them together.
I guess this is just a matter of archetype taxonomy, though. One man's aggro is another man's midrange...
That said, I'd disagree with your assessment of the two drops in the format; I think "bad" ones are the exception rather than the rule, with most being solid filler (Aviary Mechanic, Cobra, Rats) to outstanding (Operative, Brawler, Motorist, Cub, Servant of the Conduit, and Aether Theorist, the one good non-aggressive two drop). Certainly things like Reckless Firewaeaver and Curio Vendor are underwhelming but this isn't BFZ...two drops are still pretty decent and you'll want at least 4-6 in almost any deck.
This set is basically Magic: Origins
That's my thoughts on the matter. It's a set that held a lot of promise, with some interesting mechanical interweaving that was generally spoiled by design blindsides and developmental mistakes that made the median game into aggro-fests with tons of cases of snowballing advantage afforded to the beatdown player.
Feel free to not like this set, but it's VERY well designed.
I can't call a set that:
-has too few mana-sinks to mitigate the impact of land flood
-makes the overwhelming majority of the cards, especially those dealing with two of the new marquee mechanics, much better on offense than on the defensive, regardless of power level (e.g. most Vehicles are loaded with abilities that on work when attacking and most energy sinks only trigger on attack)
-has a resource pool that cannot be interacted with by the opponents
all that well designed. Yeah, sure, there are a lot of cute interactions and the modular nature of the set is a breath of fresh air after numerous blocks of high-synergy, "on-rails" (a bit of hyperbole) drafting, but these positives don't really outweigh the negatives. It's a set that can be fun to draft, but is all too often miserable to play as a result of many design flubs (and some mistakes on development's part as well, to be fair).
Can you imagine how hard it is to make a set that is dominated by an aggro card (Renegade Freighter) but doesn't manage to devolve into Zendikar or even Magic:Origins.
They did this by making Aggro powerful, but actually difficult to force. The 2 drops generally suck (there are exceptions) so it can be hard to draft a good all-in aggro deck (although you can drop into 1 drops, with all the gambling that entails).
It's pretty easy to draft an aggro deck; just grab some good cards in the 2-4 slots, and then hope to win the die roll, curve out, and beat face. Just like any other set that has a paucity of good blockers and a glut of stronger attackers. Most aggro decks in Limited, even in sets like Origins, aren't going to be as low curve as a Constructed deck, so it isn't that hard to throw them together.
I guess this is just a matter of archetype taxonomy, though. One man's aggro is another man's midrange...
That said, I'd disagree with your assessment of the two drops in the format; I think "bad" ones are the exception rather than the rule, with most being solid filler (Aviary Mechanic, Cobra, Rats) to outstanding (Operative, Brawler, Motorist, Cub, Servant of the Conduit, and Aether Theorist, the one good non-aggressive two drop). Certainly things like Reckless Firewaeaver and Curio Vendor are underwhelming but this isn't BFZ...two drops are still pretty decent and you'll want at least 4-6 in almost any deck.
This set is basically Magic: Origins
That's my thoughts on the matter. It's a set that held a lot of promise, with some interesting mechanical interweaving that was generally spoiled by design blindsides and developmental mistakes that made the median game into aggro-fests with tons of cases of snowballing advantage afforded to the beatdown player.
I agree mostly, but I'm not sure that's a mistake. Its OK to have an aggro format every once in a while. Its not out of control like Zendikar was. There are enough solid control cards to build a dedicated control deck that slows down aggro enough early to drop larger threats later. I've won enough games with this strategy, and been beaten enough times when the shoe is on the other foot, to be convinced of this. Aggro is stronger, but I think for an 8 man pod its more of a 5-3 split, meaning you can get 5 decent aggro decks and 3 decent control decks in a pod, but if 4 or more player go control they will be weak and aggro will be OP, and if you get 2 or fewer control decks they can dominate. The average split for a pod is even between aggro, midrange, and control, with one or two decks chasing a build around uncommon. Here, midrange is bad, not strong enough to stave off aggro or fast enough to beat control, and the build around cards generally compliment aggro or control strategies rather than forcing you to skew your deck around them (the U/R vedalken that makes thopters from energy is a build around, and a strong one, but he just slots into any U/R energy build. I've used him in U/R energy aggro and U/R energy control and only needed a couple of support cards to make him into an engine, whereas something like Spider Spawning required the entire deck be built around the card). In many ways, I think this is similar to DTK dafts, both with Fate Reforged and triple DTK, though better since aggro isn't entirely pushed to a single color pair and archetype that is just better than every other strategy (BR dash could reasonably support half the pod, while if you were in blue you had to be literally the only person in blue to have a chance).
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
There is *nothing* wrong with a fast format as long as there are tools for doing other stuff than attacking. This format has those tools. You don't need to first pick every Renegade Freighter you see.
I like to durdle as much as anyone, but come on. We can't go around saying every format that has successful aggro decks is crappy and poorly-designed, or we'll end up with mono-EMN which gets boring fast. This format is rich with choices and variety, possibly more diverse than literally any set since, well, ever. I'm honestly sitting here trying to think back through past formats remembering how they were solved, and Kaladesh has been a tougher nut to crack than everything I've ever played, I think. The fact that fast decks have strong showings is a key part of that.
That doesn't mean I think the format is perfect, but for the first time ever, I don't know of anything I would change that I feel confident would make things better. Kaladesh is great.
Who said this set was hard to draft aggro? I constantly end up in RW aggro just because the two drops into removal is so amazing and available. And win with it.
Aggro isn't "hard" to draft, as in mentally challenging. It's just not that open usually. Except black, black aggro seems open most of the time where I play.
But there are lots of nonsense decks that do well. Pretty much everyone 1st picks a bomb, a renegade freighter, or a green card. Maybe a non-green removal spell.
Maybe it comes down to how much you like Red. I think most of the red cards are actively bad, so I am rarely in red. But W/B/G all make decent aggro decks, so it's fine.
Feel free to not like this set, but it's VERY well designed.
That said, I'd disagree with your assessment of the two drops in the format; I think "bad" ones are the exception rather than the rule, with most being solid filler (Aviary Mechanic, Cobra, Rats) to outstanding (Operative, Brawler, Motorist, Cub, Servant of the Conduit, and Aether Theorist, the one good non-aggressive two drop). Certainly things like Reckless Firewaeaver and Curio Vendor are underwhelming but this isn't BFZ...two drops are still pretty decent and you'll want at least 4-6 in almost any deck.
I resent the Aether Theorist comment greatly, since Consulate Skygate, Contraband Kingpin, Narham Cobra, Trusty Companion, Thriving Turtle are all solid defensive 2 drops. I also consider Dhund Operative, Kujar Seedsculptor, and Aviary Mechanic defensive in that they are relevant in the late game and generally work better early on by not attacking. On aggressive decks snowballing, I've come around on the matter, and now think that it's really not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. What I've noticed more and more after playing with the set is that aggro decks can just get completely stonewalled by their opponent playing on curve or a bunch of 4 toughness creatures. Say you're a standard RW aggro deck playing a bunch of 3/2 Spireside Infiltrator, Spontaneous Artist, etc. Well, your opponent then plays a Prakhata Club Security into Bastion Mastodon, and now you're suddenly stonewalled. And I mean sure, maybe you have the tricks needed to push your opponents through for lethal, but sometimes you don't and you then just fizzle out. Another way to look at this is given you play a typically 3 mana creature, how well does that card compare against higher CMC cards in the format? A 3/2 is far more relevant in a format like SoI where most 4 drops could only trade with the 3 drops, compared to this formats 4 drops which can stonewall the opponent. The pain train is the clear exception to this as it just trades with your opponents 5 drop, but maybe the freighter is needed to make aggro decks more viable than they otherwise would be. If you look at the actual aggro creatures that can contest 4 toughness creatures, there really aren't that many, and given how there are a good amount of 4 toughness creatures in the format, this is far from anything close to Origins or original Zendikar.
I agree mostly, but I'm not sure that's a mistake. Its OK to have an aggro format every once in a while. Its not out of control like Zendikar was. There are enough solid control cards to build a dedicated control deck that slows down aggro enough early to drop larger threats later.
I'll admit I'm not a fan of aggro-formats. Despite being a Limited player who enjoys turning dudes sideways, I don't think that hyper-aggressive formats are good for the game as a whole. They tend to produce swingy, minimally interactive games and result in less Magic being played, on average, per match. From a competitive standpoint, this only necessitates play adjustments, but I think most folks are in this for fun, exciting games in which there's at least some simulacra of player inputs meaningfully influencing the outcome. And aggro format fare poorly in this regard.
It's hard to watch someone shrug their shoulders in defeat when you curve into a turn-3 Freighter or go t3Rhino into t4Outrider. Not a lot of fun being had here.
As for the controlling tools being there, I'd have to mostly disagree. Sure, you can draft the nuts, picking up a bunch of removal and a great bomb to play towards, but most draft seats will only be able to put together a mediocre Control deck, one that will struggle against the pushed offense in this set.
There is *nothing* wrong with a fast format as long as there are tools for doing other stuff than attacking. This format has those tools. You don't need to first pick every Renegade Freighter you see.
I feel like good long-game decks in Kaladesh hinge upon Rare bombs and having a glut of early-game (read: premium) removal. While these situations can occur, and Control can be the correct build for your draft seat, this is an infrequent occurrence.
I like to durdle as much as anyone, but come on. We can't go around saying every format that has successful aggro decks is crappy and poorly-designed, or we'll end up with mono-EMN which gets boring fast.
I don't think that's a fair representation of the detracting view.
I'm certain plenty of Kaladesh-skeptics, myself included, enjoyed the original Innistrad. That was a set that had blisteringly-fast aggro decks in G/W Travel Preparations, R/B Sligh with Vampire Interloper/Crossway Vampire, and even some kooky R/W Rally or U/W Tempo lists. But it also had plenty of Midrange and go-long decks that could be reliably drafted. The set was rich with early-game removal (even if much of it was "weak" like Geistflame, most all removal was 3CMC or less at Common) so one could guard against fast starts, the beater/blocker balance in creatures was better , there were plenty of mana sinks, and there were powerful (un)commons that could stabilize and close out games for slower decks.
This format is rich with choices and variety, possibly more diverse than literally any set since, well, ever.
Don't get me wrong...Kaladesh does a lot of things right in the design department. It's a non-linear set, a breath of fresh air after two blocks in which seeing two basic land types was usually enough to know, with a high degree of accuracy, what kind of deck an opponent was playing. And Fabricate, like Investigate before it, looks incredibly simple at first glance but plays out marvelously, with lots of subtle, meaningful decision points.
That said issues such as the the aggro-favoritism and lack of flood insurance make many of the games play out extremely poorly. And that's a tough sell in a product where each draft is going to cost the average player ~$10-$12 to play. Sure, us sharks can bank store credit or go infinite on MTGO. It's a lot harder to swallow an increased number of non-games when there's a serious cost attached.
I resent the Aether Theorist comment greatly, since Consulate Skygate, Contraband Kingpin, Narham Cobra, Trusty Companion, Thriving Turtle are all solid defensive 2 drops. I also consider Dhund Operative, Kujar Seedsculptor, and Aviary Mechanic defensive in that they are relevant in the late game and generally work better early on by not attacking.
I screwed up and used some imprecise language here. The meaning I was attempting to convey via "defensive two-drops" was creatures that are basically built for defense, that you'd never really be happy beating down with, but would love to block with. Cards that will wheel for a defensive deck easily as they fit best there. Yeah, I know, weird classification.
I feel like Aether Theorist fits well here, though I did forget about the Kingpin and the Companion, both of which are actually good defensive cards (i.e. they can eat attackers and gain advantage). I'm still down on the Skygate, however; too easy to bust through or go wide around.
On aggressive decks snowballing, I've come around on the matter, and now think that it's really not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. What I've noticed more and more after playing with the set is that aggro decks can just get completely stonewalled by their opponent playing on curve or a bunch of 4 toughness creatures.
If you're an aggro-deck playing against an opponent going for the long game, and they curve out perfectly, there isn't much you can often do. They had a top decile draw for the matchup while yours was probably average. It's like a worse case scenario.
Say you're a standard RW aggro deck playing a bunch of 3/2 Spireside Infiltrator, Spontaneous Artist, etc. Well, your opponent then plays a Prakhata Club Security into Bastion Mastodon, and now you're suddenly stonewalled. And I mean sure, maybe you have the tricks needed to push your opponents through for lethal, but sometimes you don't and you then just fizzle out.
Well, yeah, sometimes you draw poorly and your opponent draws well. But R/W aggro has plenty of ways around this sort of scenario. It can go in the air with Eddytrail Hawk, beat with a big vehicle, bleed out the opponent with Infiltrator triggers via Crewing, have Maulfist Doorbuster do his thing, cast Hijack (okay...this might be a stretch), play your own high drop like Skyswirl Harrier and so on.
I wouldn't feel too safe behind some beefy dudes, especially if my life total was low.
If you look at the actual aggro creatures that can contest 4 toughness creatures, there really aren't that many, and given how there are a good amount of 4 toughness creatures in the format, this is far from anything close to Origins or original Zendikar.
True, aggro creatures, besides some of the Green beef, can't necessarily tangle with 4 and 5 drops. But your opponent should be on the ropes by that point in a typical game where all you need to do is deliver the last few points of damage some way or another by having some sort of reach/evasion, which Kaladesh has in spades.
You mention a quantity of 4+ toughness creatures and compare to Origins, but the number isn't all that different (20 in Origins at C/U vs 23 non-vehicles in Kaladesh) and there are plenty of design parallels. And just like Origins, these high toughness creatures are either too-little, too-late or efficient beater in their own right (e.g. both Rhox Maulers and Riparian Tiger are/were fine top-ends in a beatdown deck and fit that role much better than being on the block).
You mention a quantity of 4+ toughness creatures and compare to Origins, but the number isn't all that different (20 in Origins at C/U vs 23 non-vehicles in Kaladesh) and there are plenty of design parallels. And just like Origins, these high toughness creatures are either too-little, too-late or efficient beater in their own right (e.g. both Rhox Maulers and Riparian Tiger are/were fine top-ends in a beatdown deck and fit that role much better than being on the block).
I don't think this is a comparison you can really make. Sure, the numbers line up, but the 4-toughness creatures in Kaladesh are both more powerful and better suited to their format. Skyswirl Harrier, Dukhara Peafowl, and Consulate Skygate stop most of the format's fliers dead in their tracks. Wispweaver Angel will usually be the biggest flying body on the board, and its ability can be game-winning. Contraband Kingpin is exactly what most UB decks want. Gearseeker Serpent and Arborback Stomper are both incredibly powerful. Origins didn't have high-impact defensive creatures like that.
Ive found the format to be ok. The rares all seem to be either complete trash, which I would prefer rares to be in limited, or absolutely unbeatable game winning bombs. You haven't known frustration until you'v been aethersquall ancient locked out of a game. Other then that there are some cool things you can do, key to the city+dragster is the control players dream. The aggressive decks are super polarized though. You either run people over in two seconds or they drop a arborback stomper and the game just ends on the spot which is pretty frustrating. I will say that unlike EMN-SOI there aren't really any close games, there all very lopsided.
And screw energy cub, its almost as bad as duskwatch recruiter was. It just ruins perfectly fun pods.
It does remind me a bit of OG Zendikar where most games were decided in 5 turns or less. Some sets just encourage you to be aggressive and Kaladesh is one of those sets.
I don't get the people who complain you can't interact with energy. Energy is the second most used resource in Kaladesh after mana, and the set doesn't let you interact with mana either (a card existing as a D+ doesn't count). So why not complain about that first?
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In what world is Inventor's Goggles, an archetype role-player, even close to Freighter in terms of pick orders? How is looping Scavengers a powerful build-around as opposed to a cute interaction that can occur in certain gamestates (you won't always have a way to get one into the 'yard)? Why/how does an overcosted Bonesplitter win games?
I think by "a lot of the people", you're referring to "that one person". The truth lies somewhere in the middle of the two extremes: I've had super grindy/silly decks work, and hyper aggro ones work as well. I've come around to the format as a whole: I currently think it's above average, since I like it better than SoI and RTR, but worse than EDM/Khans/etc.
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A lot of the good blockers in this format have 4 toughness. 4 toughness is enough to blank all the early aggro creatures, and it would stop a 3/4 and hasty 2/2. But a 5/4 trample stomps right over it. Freighter lets aggro use its small dorks to push through big blockers and token blockers. It just makes blocking sucks. Also, having one 5/4 trample body instead of two smaller bodies synergizes a lot better with all the top combat tricks.
With so many +1/+1 counters and 2 3/3s, how did you lose ANYTHING to Demon of Dark Schemes?
I'd say the problem is that the bombs are too frequent. It looks like one of those formats where just about everyone has several comparatively ridiculous cards in their deck and beatdown looks appealing enough to attempt but not quite up there with midrange or control. In a refreshing turn of events (dunno why it felt like that), the obligatory blue perma-tapdown aura thingy is format defining (as in you put it on that train thing and it sits there not doing much, and you're blue, and it's an artifact, go figure...). Also the turtle which keeps growing is all kinds of stupid, the rhino is pretty silly, but the turtle is just brutal. Also the gearhulk killing cheap gremlin is rather good, makes inexperienced opponents reluctant to put the pain train down so it doesn't get blasted, screws up their development quite a bit much. There's some RUG thing everyone seems to be trying to draft which works off the fact that if you live long enough one silly card is going to be one silly card too many for the opponent. But the only 2 - 0 matches I was in were matches I won, my every loss was a 2-1, most of the time narrow, often because of a drunken mistake or inexperience with the interface, and I never drafted any of the seemingly standard RUG "best stuff".
Don't see what's up with all the "I'm sitting MtG out while this lasts". It's no Oddysey (THAT's a thinking man's draft), but it's not terrible at all. Dunno about design space and depth, but they could make all the mechanics evergreen and put them in every set as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I don't think I've seen a set since Innistrad which made me want to just play MtG as much this one does.
I think that there is a certain amount of poor construction on the whole but i also really like the set it's grindy it focuses on the creatures as much as the spells. Grindy matches that i lose i'm always more likely to end with a smile and offer the handshake than the hyper control possibilities I've seen in other sets. While it's lacking in certain color aspects thats mostly because of standard but i even find standard right now to be more fun especially since i'm playing outside the rock-paper scissorsy-ness of the format. i just think that while it's not the strongest set it is good
They did this by making Aggro powerful, but actually difficult to force. The 2 drops generally suck (there are exceptions) so it can be hard to draft a good all-in aggro deck (although you can drop into 1 drops, with all the gambling that entails).
This set is basically Magic: Origins but with build-arounds that actually work (because aggro itself is basically a build-around difficulty level of drafting)
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I can't call a set that:
-has too few mana-sinks to mitigate the impact of land flood
-makes the overwhelming majority of the cards, especially those dealing with two of the new marquee mechanics, much better on offense than on the defensive, regardless of power level (e.g. most Vehicles are loaded with abilities that on work when attacking and most energy sinks only trigger on attack)
-has a resource pool that cannot be interacted with by the opponents
all that well designed. Yeah, sure, there are a lot of cute interactions and the modular nature of the set is a breath of fresh air after numerous blocks of high-synergy, "on-rails" (a bit of hyperbole) drafting, but these positives don't really outweigh the negatives. It's a set that can be fun to draft, but is all too often miserable to play as a result of many design flubs (and some mistakes on development's part as well, to be fair).
Can you imagine how hard it is to make a set that is dominated by an aggro card (Renegade Freighter) but doesn't manage to devolve into Zendikar or even Magic:Origins.
It's pretty easy to draft an aggro deck; just grab some good cards in the 2-4 slots, and then hope to win the die roll, curve out, and beat face. Just like any other set that has a paucity of good blockers and a glut of stronger attackers. Most aggro decks in Limited, even in sets like Origins, aren't going to be as low curve as a Constructed deck, so it isn't that hard to throw them together.
I guess this is just a matter of archetype taxonomy, though. One man's aggro is another man's midrange...
That said, I'd disagree with your assessment of the two drops in the format; I think "bad" ones are the exception rather than the rule, with most being solid filler (Aviary Mechanic, Cobra, Rats) to outstanding (Operative, Brawler, Motorist, Cub, Servant of the Conduit, and Aether Theorist, the one good non-aggressive two drop). Certainly things like Reckless Firewaeaver and Curio Vendor are underwhelming but this isn't BFZ...two drops are still pretty decent and you'll want at least 4-6 in almost any deck.
That's my thoughts on the matter. It's a set that held a lot of promise, with some interesting mechanical interweaving that was generally spoiled by design blindsides and developmental mistakes that made the median game into aggro-fests with tons of cases of snowballing advantage afforded to the beatdown player.
I agree mostly, but I'm not sure that's a mistake. Its OK to have an aggro format every once in a while. Its not out of control like Zendikar was. There are enough solid control cards to build a dedicated control deck that slows down aggro enough early to drop larger threats later. I've won enough games with this strategy, and been beaten enough times when the shoe is on the other foot, to be convinced of this. Aggro is stronger, but I think for an 8 man pod its more of a 5-3 split, meaning you can get 5 decent aggro decks and 3 decent control decks in a pod, but if 4 or more player go control they will be weak and aggro will be OP, and if you get 2 or fewer control decks they can dominate. The average split for a pod is even between aggro, midrange, and control, with one or two decks chasing a build around uncommon. Here, midrange is bad, not strong enough to stave off aggro or fast enough to beat control, and the build around cards generally compliment aggro or control strategies rather than forcing you to skew your deck around them (the U/R vedalken that makes thopters from energy is a build around, and a strong one, but he just slots into any U/R energy build. I've used him in U/R energy aggro and U/R energy control and only needed a couple of support cards to make him into an engine, whereas something like Spider Spawning required the entire deck be built around the card). In many ways, I think this is similar to DTK dafts, both with Fate Reforged and triple DTK, though better since aggro isn't entirely pushed to a single color pair and archetype that is just better than every other strategy (BR dash could reasonably support half the pod, while if you were in blue you had to be literally the only person in blue to have a chance).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I like to durdle as much as anyone, but come on. We can't go around saying every format that has successful aggro decks is crappy and poorly-designed, or we'll end up with mono-EMN which gets boring fast. This format is rich with choices and variety, possibly more diverse than literally any set since, well, ever. I'm honestly sitting here trying to think back through past formats remembering how they were solved, and Kaladesh has been a tougher nut to crack than everything I've ever played, I think. The fact that fast decks have strong showings is a key part of that.
That doesn't mean I think the format is perfect, but for the first time ever, I don't know of anything I would change that I feel confident would make things better. Kaladesh is great.
But there are lots of nonsense decks that do well. Pretty much everyone 1st picks a bomb, a renegade freighter, or a green card. Maybe a non-green removal spell.
Maybe it comes down to how much you like Red. I think most of the red cards are actively bad, so I am rarely in red. But W/B/G all make decent aggro decks, so it's fine.
I resent the Aether Theorist comment greatly, since Consulate Skygate, Contraband Kingpin, Narham Cobra, Trusty Companion, Thriving Turtle are all solid defensive 2 drops. I also consider Dhund Operative, Kujar Seedsculptor, and Aviary Mechanic defensive in that they are relevant in the late game and generally work better early on by not attacking. On aggressive decks snowballing, I've come around on the matter, and now think that it's really not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. What I've noticed more and more after playing with the set is that aggro decks can just get completely stonewalled by their opponent playing on curve or a bunch of 4 toughness creatures. Say you're a standard RW aggro deck playing a bunch of 3/2 Spireside Infiltrator, Spontaneous Artist, etc. Well, your opponent then plays a Prakhata Club Security into Bastion Mastodon, and now you're suddenly stonewalled. And I mean sure, maybe you have the tricks needed to push your opponents through for lethal, but sometimes you don't and you then just fizzle out. Another way to look at this is given you play a typically 3 mana creature, how well does that card compare against higher CMC cards in the format? A 3/2 is far more relevant in a format like SoI where most 4 drops could only trade with the 3 drops, compared to this formats 4 drops which can stonewall the opponent. The pain train is the clear exception to this as it just trades with your opponents 5 drop, but maybe the freighter is needed to make aggro decks more viable than they otherwise would be. If you look at the actual aggro creatures that can contest 4 toughness creatures, there really aren't that many, and given how there are a good amount of 4 toughness creatures in the format, this is far from anything close to Origins or original Zendikar.
I'll admit I'm not a fan of aggro-formats. Despite being a Limited player who enjoys turning dudes sideways, I don't think that hyper-aggressive formats are good for the game as a whole. They tend to produce swingy, minimally interactive games and result in less Magic being played, on average, per match. From a competitive standpoint, this only necessitates play adjustments, but I think most folks are in this for fun, exciting games in which there's at least some simulacra of player inputs meaningfully influencing the outcome. And aggro format fare poorly in this regard.
It's hard to watch someone shrug their shoulders in defeat when you curve into a turn-3 Freighter or go t3Rhino into t4Outrider. Not a lot of fun being had here.
As for the controlling tools being there, I'd have to mostly disagree. Sure, you can draft the nuts, picking up a bunch of removal and a great bomb to play towards, but most draft seats will only be able to put together a mediocre Control deck, one that will struggle against the pushed offense in this set.
I feel like good long-game decks in Kaladesh hinge upon Rare bombs and having a glut of early-game (read: premium) removal. While these situations can occur, and Control can be the correct build for your draft seat, this is an infrequent occurrence.
I don't think that's a fair representation of the detracting view.
I'm certain plenty of Kaladesh-skeptics, myself included, enjoyed the original Innistrad. That was a set that had blisteringly-fast aggro decks in G/W Travel Preparations, R/B Sligh with Vampire Interloper/Crossway Vampire, and even some kooky R/W Rally or U/W Tempo lists. But it also had plenty of Midrange and go-long decks that could be reliably drafted. The set was rich with early-game removal (even if much of it was "weak" like Geistflame, most all removal was 3CMC or less at Common) so one could guard against fast starts, the beater/blocker balance in creatures was better , there were plenty of mana sinks, and there were powerful (un)commons that could stabilize and close out games for slower decks.
Don't get me wrong...Kaladesh does a lot of things right in the design department. It's a non-linear set, a breath of fresh air after two blocks in which seeing two basic land types was usually enough to know, with a high degree of accuracy, what kind of deck an opponent was playing. And Fabricate, like Investigate before it, looks incredibly simple at first glance but plays out marvelously, with lots of subtle, meaningful decision points.
That said issues such as the the aggro-favoritism and lack of flood insurance make many of the games play out extremely poorly. And that's a tough sell in a product where each draft is going to cost the average player ~$10-$12 to play. Sure, us sharks can bank store credit or go infinite on MTGO. It's a lot harder to swallow an increased number of non-games when there's a serious cost attached.
I screwed up and used some imprecise language here. The meaning I was attempting to convey via "defensive two-drops" was creatures that are basically built for defense, that you'd never really be happy beating down with, but would love to block with. Cards that will wheel for a defensive deck easily as they fit best there. Yeah, I know, weird classification.
I feel like Aether Theorist fits well here, though I did forget about the Kingpin and the Companion, both of which are actually good defensive cards (i.e. they can eat attackers and gain advantage). I'm still down on the Skygate, however; too easy to bust through or go wide around.
If you're an aggro-deck playing against an opponent going for the long game, and they curve out perfectly, there isn't much you can often do. They had a top decile draw for the matchup while yours was probably average. It's like a worse case scenario.
Well, yeah, sometimes you draw poorly and your opponent draws well. But R/W aggro has plenty of ways around this sort of scenario. It can go in the air with Eddytrail Hawk, beat with a big vehicle, bleed out the opponent with Infiltrator triggers via Crewing, have Maulfist Doorbuster do his thing, cast Hijack (okay...this might be a stretch), play your own high drop like Skyswirl Harrier and so on.
I wouldn't feel too safe behind some beefy dudes, especially if my life total was low.
True, aggro creatures, besides some of the Green beef, can't necessarily tangle with 4 and 5 drops. But your opponent should be on the ropes by that point in a typical game where all you need to do is deliver the last few points of damage some way or another by having some sort of reach/evasion, which Kaladesh has in spades.
You mention a quantity of 4+ toughness creatures and compare to Origins, but the number isn't all that different (20 in Origins at C/U vs 23 non-vehicles in Kaladesh) and there are plenty of design parallels. And just like Origins, these high toughness creatures are either too-little, too-late or efficient beater in their own right (e.g. both Rhox Maulers and Riparian Tiger are/were fine top-ends in a beatdown deck and fit that role much better than being on the block).
I don't think this is a comparison you can really make. Sure, the numbers line up, but the 4-toughness creatures in Kaladesh are both more powerful and better suited to their format. Skyswirl Harrier, Dukhara Peafowl, and Consulate Skygate stop most of the format's fliers dead in their tracks. Wispweaver Angel will usually be the biggest flying body on the board, and its ability can be game-winning. Contraband Kingpin is exactly what most UB decks want. Gearseeker Serpent and Arborback Stomper are both incredibly powerful. Origins didn't have high-impact defensive creatures like that.
And screw energy cub, its almost as bad as duskwatch recruiter was. It just ruins perfectly fun pods.
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