Do you play the Tenacious Dead on Turn 1? Why or why not? What factors does it depend on? Maybe later on I'll reveal the absolutely nutso deck where this was a consideration.
Being conservative I think I would hold on to it on turn 1 & 2, play the Cauldron on 2, and play it on 3 with "regen" up unless my opponent is playing swamps, to spare it from Wring Flesh.
I would play the Tenacious Dead, certainly. There is no point waiting until you have the mana to actually return it to play, as you may have a creature to play. On turn 2, you are going to play the Cauldron. Who knows what you will get on turn 3. You don't really care if your TD is shocked. You certainly don't hold it, worrying that it will be shocked.
You play it, because if they have removal for it they're going to find an opportunity to kill it eventually anyway. It's not like you can cast it on Turn 3 with an effective casting cost of B + sacrifice two lands because you insist on not letting it die at any cost. Especially if the removal is instant, you're going to want to use the Dead proactively for the Cauldron so there will be openings to remove it.
Oh my bad I thought BBWitch was a 1/2. Also did not think about saccing to Cauldron to avoid Time Ebb. That's what happens when you're not in the actual game.
Definitely t1, hoping to curve out by drawing one of the Blood Bairns I hope to have in any sac deck. I have no problem letting my opponent use up removal on my 1 drop, unless it's Deathrite Shaman or better.
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This isn't a decision. You should play the Tenacious Dead on turn 1, and it's not particularly close.
You only really get "punished" by Shock. Wring Flesh hurts too, but it's a card most avoid playing maindeck and you're probably one of very few black drafters given this hand. It's unlikely that a given opponent has T1 shock. It's not possible to avoid losing Tenacious Dead to either of those spells. Even if it was avoidable, you gain 2 damage + 4 life by playing it now with very low risk. Some narrow corner cases to avoid playing it on turn one (very low creature count with Angelic Accord + Bubbling Cauldrons would encourage you to play it turn 5), but playing it turn one is a reasonable rule.
Play it. You don't have a t3 play yet, and it will be nice to block their 2-drop, gain 4, and bring it back so you're not too far behind if your low-drops don't materialize.
Plus, if they shock it, who cares. Means your Accursed Spirit is less likely to die.
I don't think this is anywhere near as simple as you guys are saying. Yeah, it's probably fine to run it out there, as decks like this have much more important removal targets, but this hand doesn't really offer any, and the "aggro" you can get with the Dead in the first few turns is pretty meaningless in a deck that ends up winning through grinding. Additionally, later in the game, that card puts you in a position in which it's almost impossible for you to lose, even just with the Cauldron as an outlet for it. Losing the Dead actually has a pretty serious affect on this hand's ability to do anything before turn 4 anyway, so playing cautiously wouldn't be indefensible here. Basically, I understand the argument that the benefits of ensuring it will do way more powerful things in the late game mitigate the couple damage you might get in with it in the early game, and dismissing it as though it were irrelevant doesn't really help evolve the discussion.
All that said, I would likely run it out there turn 1, especially on the play, but I probably wouldn't cast the Cauldron on turn 2.
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I think montypylon has the right idea here. Playing or not playing Tenacious D isn't something you think about in isolation. In the context of the particular hand you have, it's better to play it because it gives you something good to do on turn three. The format isn't so slow that you can just ignore the whole concept of tempo.
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I would write a long paragraph berating people claiming the obvious play is T1 dead. Then I'd say I'd play a T1 dead.
I think you need to look up the definition of the word "berating." Nothing I said was disparaging in any way. I simply think there's more to the discussion than most people have implied.
Thanks for contributing to it, though. This was clearly well conceived and helpful!
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Mua: As others have stated, playing it on turn 1 means I don't have to play it on turn 3, and therefore if it survives, you can start saccing it to the Cauldron.
Ignoring all the scenario's, what is there to gain from playing it on turn 1? Swing for 1? "Prevent" 2 damage from blocking their Predatory Sliver?
That seems hardly worth the risk.
You can't ignore scenarios. We make plays based on the deck/situation at hand. That being said, casting it on turn one is about mana efficiency and how much you really care about the TD if it dies. Honestly, you don't care. You would love to be able to sac it to a Bairn that you MIGHT draw, but that is not a legitimate reason to hold it in your hand when you have the opportunity to cast it on turn one.
Ooh good, I was worried this might have been a bit of a dud. But I think it's important to start analyzing situations like this more and more as you play limited, and not to leap to immediate conclusions either way.
Of course, getting Tenacious Dead Shocked or Wring Fleshed (the latter of which would almost certainly be used immediately, and likely the former) is the concern here. On the other hand, holding it for turn 3 runs into Essence Scatter, and in the dark on the play it's tough to choose which to play around. Something as convoluted as "If my opponent has Essence Scatter, that means he's playing the format's best color (blue), so it will be even more important to eke out damage while I can, so playing it turn 1 is correct more of the time because if I need to play around Scatter then I definitely want to be pushing damage through" might have merit. On the other hand, if my deck wasn't very good and the Dead/Cauldron interaction was one of my few ways to reliably stabilize, it might be way less worth it to risk losing it to a dumb removal spell I'd much rather have aimed at the Spirit.
That said, this is all pretty much moot (and - spoiler alert - here's the real point of the thread), since here's what I was working with:
That said, this is all pretty much moot (and - spoiler alert - here's the real point of the thread), since here's what I was working with:
~snip~
I hate you a little bit right now. I have yet to draft/build anything other than UW skies...and not for lack of trying. Seems like I'm always on the opposite side of the table from EVERY other set of colors, but at least the blue fliers love me still. /whine.
Not only would I also have played it on T1, I would have expected an easy 2-1, possibly 3-0 with that build. Nice draft!
Maybe later on I'll reveal the absolutely nutso deck where this was a consideration.
I thought that you were talking about your opponent's anomalous deck that would make the play really interesting. Like, Elvish Mystic into Scroll Thief or 4/1 cat with Essence Scatter or Shock.
It only makes sense to play around things if either you're super far ahead or would lose otherwise. This is not the situation for either of those.
By the way, I don't think this is remotely true. This exact sentiment is probably the barrier between the merely good and the great or pro-level Magic players. I suspect that the correct sentiment is approximately "It only makes sense to play around something if you can reasonably do so while still maintaining an advantage." Identifying which scenario is which is surely more difficult than it looks, which is why I made the thread.
I'm not necessarily advocating for holding the Dead in this case, but I suspect that it's correct to do so in some instances, and that even just thinking about why that might be could improve the limited play of most players, myself definitely included.
(Also, as I said, I really wanted to post that deck somewhere.)
If you're actually playing around shock, then you're playing Tenacious Dead on turn 5 at the earliest. Playing it on turn three doesn't make sense at all- you've lost two damage and four life that you could've gotten, and can't play the Bogbrew Witch or Accursed Spirit on Turn 4 or 5 since we're committed to playing around shock. Note that this also blanks our Accursed Spirit entirely- we've kept our Dead alive at the cost of losing it to shock instead.
Thinking about this more, I'm pretty sure you play the Dead turn 1 even if your opponent shows you a face up Shock.
This isn't a decision. You should play the Tenacious Dead on turn 1, and it's not particularly close.
You only really get "punished" by Shock. Wring Flesh hurts too, but it's a card most avoid playing maindeck and you're probably one of very few black drafters given this hand. It's unlikely that a given opponent has T1 shock. It's not possible to avoid losing Tenacious Dead to either of those spells. Even if it was avoidable, you gain 2 damage + 4 life by playing it now with very low risk. Some narrow corner cases to avoid playing it on turn one (very low creature count with Angelic Accord + Bubbling Cauldrons would encourage you to play it turn 5), but playing it turn one is a reasonable rule.
... the *best* possible thing that can happen by playing it turn 1 is that it swings for 1 or blocks a bear.....
Nah. Magical Christmasland gets much more sparkly than that.. but the greater point is about mana. Decks have three drops, and it's certainly not unreasonable to hope to draw one. Even if you don't, it sets you up for gaining 4 on turn 3.
I would say that the base you are looking toward is a.) it draws removal (Shock would be good to draw out, Wring Flesh inevitable) or b.) it deals 1-2 damage and gains you four life by turn 4. That's a five-six point swing. That's a good one-drop.
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I'm not saying you should be ignoring all possible scenario's. I'm saying the if you do so, the *best* possible thing that can happen by playing it turn 1 is that it swings for 1 or blocks a bear. Every other scenario is worse, especially since the given hand doesn't have a turn 3 play anyway, so you might as well secure your 4 life per turn while you set up the rest of your board.
The question is then, is it worth the risk running it out on turn 1? I mean, in game 1 surely anyone would do so, but if it's game 2 and you've seen your opponent play Shock or he's playing swamps I don't think I'd put in on the table in turn 1.
Then what happens if you do draw a turn 3 play in the minimum 2, maybe three draws(if you are on the play) that you have between now and then. It is silly not to play the Tenacious Dead. You shouldn't be worried about this particular creature dying to a shock. That is just silly. Not playing it because you can hold up the mana on turn 3 is kinda silly, especially if you draw a turn three play when it comes to you having 3 mana. There are sooooo many 3 mana spells in this game, that I don't think it's worth the risk of holding on to it.
Your opponent accidentally drops the card Shock onto the table from his hand and then picks it back up. Do you play the Tenacious Dead turn one or not?
If you're actually playing around shock, then you're playing Tenacious Dead on turn 5 at the earliest. Playing it on turn three doesn't make sense at all- you've lost two damage and four life that you could've gotten, and can't play the Bogbrew Witch or Accursed Spirit on Turn 4 or 5 since we're committed to playing around shock. Note that this also blanks our Accursed Spirit entirely- we've kept our Dead alive at the cost of losing it to shock instead.
Thinking about this more, I'm pretty sure you play the Dead turn 1 even if your opponent shows you a face up Shock.
This isn't a decision. You should play the Tenacious Dead on turn 1, and it's not particularly close.
You only really get "punished" by Shock. Wring Flesh hurts too, but it's a card most avoid playing maindeck and you're probably one of very few black drafters given this hand. It's unlikely that a given opponent has T1 shock. It's not possible to avoid losing Tenacious Dead to either of those spells. Even if it was avoidable, you gain 2 damage + 4 life by playing it now with very low risk. Some narrow corner cases to avoid playing it on turn one (very low creature count with Angelic Accord + Bubbling Cauldrons would encourage you to play it turn 5), but playing it turn one is a reasonable rule.
3 Swamp, Tenacious Dead, Bubbling Cauldron, Accursed Spirit, and Bogbrew Witch.
Do you play the Tenacious Dead on Turn 1? Why or why not? What factors does it depend on? Maybe later on I'll reveal the absolutely nutso deck where this was a consideration.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
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You only really get "punished" by Shock. Wring Flesh hurts too, but it's a card most avoid playing maindeck and you're probably one of very few black drafters given this hand. It's unlikely that a given opponent has T1 shock. It's not possible to avoid losing Tenacious Dead to either of those spells. Even if it was avoidable, you gain 2 damage + 4 life by playing it now with very low risk. Some narrow corner cases to avoid playing it on turn one (very low creature count with Angelic Accord + Bubbling Cauldrons would encourage you to play it turn 5), but playing it turn one is a reasonable rule.
Plus, if they shock it, who cares. Means your Accursed Spirit is less likely to die.
BBB Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief BBB
GBW Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
BUG Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
UBU Sexy Wrexy BUB
RUG Riku of Two Reflections GUR
GGG Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant GGG
All that said, I would likely run it out there turn 1, especially on the play, but I probably wouldn't cast the Cauldron on turn 2.
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<Limited Clan>
I think you need to look up the definition of the word "berating." Nothing I said was disparaging in any way. I simply think there's more to the discussion than most people have implied.
Thanks for contributing to it, though. This was clearly well conceived and helpful!
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My own view on this is rather... nuanced.
You can't ignore scenarios. We make plays based on the deck/situation at hand. That being said, casting it on turn one is about mana efficiency and how much you really care about the TD if it dies. Honestly, you don't care. You would love to be able to sac it to a Bairn that you MIGHT draw, but that is not a legitimate reason to hold it in your hand when you have the opportunity to cast it on turn one.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
Of course, getting Tenacious Dead Shocked or Wring Fleshed (the latter of which would almost certainly be used immediately, and likely the former) is the concern here. On the other hand, holding it for turn 3 runs into Essence Scatter, and in the dark on the play it's tough to choose which to play around. Something as convoluted as "If my opponent has Essence Scatter, that means he's playing the format's best color (blue), so it will be even more important to eke out damage while I can, so playing it turn 1 is correct more of the time because if I need to play around Scatter then I definitely want to be pushing damage through" might have merit. On the other hand, if my deck wasn't very good and the Dead/Cauldron interaction was one of my few ways to reliably stabilize, it might be way less worth it to risk losing it to a dumb removal spell I'd much rather have aimed at the Spirit.
That said, this is all pretty much moot (and - spoiler alert - here's the real point of the thread), since here's what I was working with:
2 Festering Newt
1 Tenacious Dead
2 Corpse Hauler
2 Blood Bairn
2 Bogbrew Witch
1 Accursed Spirit
1 Deathgaze Cockatrice
1 Barrage of Expendables
2 Bubbling Cauldron
2 Doom Blade
4 Act of Treason
1 Dark Prophecy
1 Quag Sickness
1 Corrupt
12 Swamp
5 Mountain
Put it this way: I played the Dead turn 1 :D.
~snip~
I hate you a little bit right now. I have yet to draft/build anything other than UW skies...and not for lack of trying. Seems like I'm always on the opposite side of the table from EVERY other set of colors, but at least the blue fliers love me still. /whine.
Not only would I also have played it on T1, I would have expected an easy 2-1, possibly 3-0 with that build. Nice draft!
~M
I thought that you were talking about your opponent's anomalous deck that would make the play really interesting. Like, Elvish Mystic into Scroll Thief or 4/1 cat with Essence Scatter or Shock.
By the way, I don't think this is remotely true. This exact sentiment is probably the barrier between the merely good and the great or pro-level Magic players. I suspect that the correct sentiment is approximately "It only makes sense to play around something if you can reasonably do so while still maintaining an advantage." Identifying which scenario is which is surely more difficult than it looks, which is why I made the thread.
I'm not necessarily advocating for holding the Dead in this case, but I suspect that it's correct to do so in some instances, and that even just thinking about why that might be could improve the limited play of most players, myself definitely included.
(Also, as I said, I really wanted to post that deck somewhere.)
Thinking about this more, I'm pretty sure you play the Dead turn 1 even if your opponent shows you a face up Shock.
Nah. Magical Christmasland gets much more sparkly than that.. but the greater point is about mana. Decks have three drops, and it's certainly not unreasonable to hope to draw one. Even if you don't, it sets you up for gaining 4 on turn 3.
I would say that the base you are looking toward is a.) it draws removal (Shock would be good to draw out, Wring Flesh inevitable) or b.) it deals 1-2 damage and gains you four life by turn 4. That's a five-six point swing. That's a good one-drop.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
Then what happens if you do draw a turn 3 play in the minimum 2, maybe three draws(if you are on the play) that you have between now and then. It is silly not to play the Tenacious Dead. You shouldn't be worried about this particular creature dying to a shock. That is just silly. Not playing it because you can hold up the mana on turn 3 is kinda silly, especially if you draw a turn three play when it comes to you having 3 mana. There are sooooo many 3 mana spells in this game, that I don't think it's worth the risk of holding on to it.
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Your opponent accidentally drops the card Shock onto the table from his hand and then picks it back up. Do you play the Tenacious Dead turn one or not?