Hypergenesis would dominate. It is invulnerable to the available countermagic and wins on turn 1. There is really no incentive to play blue in such a format without FoW or Brainstorm, so i don't expect Spell Pierce to accomplish anything.
I don't think any of the other decks mentioned can do something as ridiculous as that.
Also, aether vial isn't banned, despite what our resident modern expert slipknot thinks.
actually affinity and zoo would still be strong. Control would be the big loser because it would be impossible to be close to 50/50 with some of the aggro and combo decks without FoW, Daze, Mana drain....
sure. Zoo was great pretty good against DD. DD would probably push any storm deck or hypergen out of the format like it did in extended. Remember that banlist only had a few cards(SDT, skullclamp, disciple of the vault and vial) on the ban list. Hypergen was mostly considered rogue in that format. Zoo had the most top 8s out of anything with a full like 14 more than DD did.
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sure. Zoo was great pretty good against DD. DD would probably push any storm deck or hypergen out of the format like it did in extended. Remember that banlist only had a few cards(SDT, skullclamp, disciple of the vault and vial) on the ban list. Hypergen was mostly considered rogue in that format. Zoo had the most top 8s out of anything with a full like 14 more than DD did.
This format would be very different from old extended though. Skullclamp and Disciple tend to do that.
Post wouldn't be playable in this format... It honestly wouldn't even be tier 3 viable. Heck, PT Philadelphia proved it gets rocked by combo decks that aren't even in close to being in the same league as skullclamp elves, DDT, Hypergenesis, etc. It's main problem is it's inability to interact favorably with opponents in the first 2-3 turns. I would go as far as to say that none of the combo decks that warranted the recent bannings would be playable.
As for Zoo, I actually agree with Slipknot a bit. I doubt it would be tier 1, but you gotta keep in mind, the decks that would pop up to keep the combo decks down (faeries, countertop, stoneblade, merfolk) would have a weak matchup to Zoo, and Zoo DOES have outs to decks like Dark Depths Thopter, and even ways to deal with Hypergenesis. Zoo is notoriously the best aggro deck in a combo meta due to it's ability to adapt itself via playing meddling mages, spell pierces, or whatever else it would presumably need to face the meta. That being said, Clamp Affinity, Elves, Scapeshift, and a lot of the other decks would be brutal against it.
As for Hypergenesis, it's not a turn 1 deck, and never has been. In order to "go off" on turn 1, it needs 2 Simian Spirit Guides, a land, a cascade spell, and then presumably 3 fatties which might not be enough to win, depending on which fatties they are. That hand is extremely rare t1. It's also not that beneficial to try going off turn 1, because you typically want the ability to destroy 2 of the opponent's lands via your creature triggers. T2 it goes off about half the time, but even on the play, it still has to deal with spell pierce, chalice, thoughtseizes, countermagic with a Chrome Mox up, or whatever other standard control cards are thrown at it.
I think Scapeshift would have a place in the meta too, but it would have to be a highly tuned, meta dependent scapeshift in all likelihood. It would probably have a better matchup against the control decks than other combo decks would.
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Basically go look at the overextended tourneys and pull out any decks that needed ODY/ONS block cards.
Hypergenesis, Storm, Affinity, DD, and maybe Elves although I think the other decks can pack enough hate for elves even with glimpse in play.
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I think Scapeshift would have a place in the meta too, but it would have to be a highly tuned, meta dependent scapeshift in all likelihood. It would probably have a better matchup against the control decks than other combo decks would.
I don't know about that. Elves is better than it against one type of control and dark depths is better against the other type of control. Scapeshift tends to do pretty bad against control except for the aggroshift versions. The regular scapeshift is notorious for wrecking zoo which is why I believe valakut should be unbanned, but that is an agreement for a different thread.
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If you go look at old OE results every elf deck playing went 4-0 or 3-1 almost every tourny. Elves were/are extremely powerful in this format.
sure but they are missing some busted cards that are not in a MRD up format. OE is the same as comparing legacy for the most part. Old extedned didn't have glimpse on the ban list and elves were not even competitive once the meta game adjusted.
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sure but they are missing some busted cards that are not in a MRD up format. OE is the same as comparing legacy for the most part. Old extedned didn't have glimpse on the ban list and elves were not even competitive once the meta game adjusted.
This is true for the most part, but Elves are an incredibly powerful combo deck that can pop up in any meta-game that isn't tuned to deal with mass amounts of creatures. Chalice at 1 hurts, but it's much easier answered now that Green Sun's Zenith is available. The best hate for Elves is probably recurring, red removal backed with mental missteps.
Combo elves are pretty competitive in Legacy, because the hate you need to deal with them is entirely different than other combo decks in the format, and even if you stop them from "going off" they can easily reload, combo off again, or just win off aggro beats, which is also quite difficult to handle without firespouts or tons of removal. Unlike most conventional combos in Legacy, counterspells are grossly inefficient at dealing with them, and hand disruption while decent, isn't necessarily going to cripple them.
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STOP!! I lol'd at this too. And I am at work. My co workers think I am crazy.
I will post a small opinion about what would hapen if the banlist were all removed...
Affinity-clamp.dek vs. Hypernonsense
Well stop laughing. You are giving away free food to poor people, that should be done with a dour face, and serious attitude. There is no laughter in giving, asshat.
This is true for the most part, but Elves are an incredibly powerful combo deck that can pop up in any meta-game that isn't tuned to deal with mass amounts of creatures. Chalice at 1 hurts, but it's much easier answered now that Green Sun's Zenith is available. The best hate for Elves is probably recurring, red removal backed with mental missteps.
Combo elves are pretty competitive in Legacy, because the hate you need to deal with them is entirely different than other combo decks in the format, and even if you stop them from "going off" they can easily reload, combo off again, or just win off aggro beats, which is also quite difficult to handle without firespouts or tons of removal. Unlike most conventional combos in Legacy, counterspells are grossly inefficient at dealing with them, and hand disruption while decent, isn't necessarily going to cripple them.
A combo is not broken if it can win when your not prepared for it. A combo deck is only broken when you put 10 cards in your sideboard and you still lose to it. Every color other than blue and green can directly answer elves. Blue and green can use artifacts to deal.
Affinity was the same sort of thing. When you didn't expect it all of a sudden two or 3 in the top of for a weekend. Then the next week they have like a 40 win %. It is the old stompy vs sligh Vs necro argument essentially.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
No other card from Modern made the jump to the bigger formats.
Now, one might say "that's because Force of Will/Wasteland/Swords to Plowshares/etc keep them in check!". That is true to an extent. But on the flipside, those formats also have things with a higher powerlevel, like Duals and better mana acceleration. So there are both more powerful offensive and defensive cards.
Thought experiment: What would happen if there was no banned list at all in Modern?
Scenario 1) Affinity is unbeatable
Really? With Ancient Grudge, Shattering Spree, Nature's Claim, Kataki, Stony Silence, Gleeful Sabotage and most of all Mental Misstep (countering Skullclamp), I don't think Affinity would be unbeatable. Also, some combo decks might simply be faster.
Scenario 2) Hypergenesis/Dredge is unbeatable
Similar to Affinity, there are quite a few hate-cards against Hypergenesis like Chalice of the Void, Silence, Ethersworn Canonist, Meddling Mage, discard and counters. The same principle applies to Dredge, there are quite a few cards that hate the graveyard.
Scenario 3) Cawblade/Faeries is unbeatable
While control decks would gain some nice tools (Ancestral, Bitterblossom, Mental Misstep, Jace, Stoneforge, Top, Thopter-Combo), they need to have the right answer to: fast aggro decks like Zoo and Affinity, combo like Hypergenesis and Splinter Twin, grave-based decks like Dredge/Reanimator and other control decks. The chance of having the right answer at the right time against a variety of decks, which attack from different angles, is not very high. So the chance of control decks dominating is also not very high.
The principle behind these scenarios is the same - basically, I think the answers in modern are good enough to handle the threats (and the brokenness cancel each other out), similar to Legacy and Vintage. All the deck above also have barely any impact on the metagames in Legacy and Vintage.
Those are only my first thoughts, so it is very likely that I'm wrong. That's why I want to hear your thoughts!
How would the Modern metagame look without a banned list in your opinion?
P.S: This is pure speculation, but maybe Wizards purposely banned a lot of cards so they can keep the metagame fresh with occasional unbannings?
But It would be interesting to play test this format on Cockatrice or something like that.
Basically, what I'm saying is that there's no need for this to be a thought experiment when you can do a real experiment!
---
Anyway, I agree with the logic that WOTC should've taken things slow as far as bans go. There was no need to rush the new format. They could've first introduced it on an experimental basis (like a beta version) with no ban list. They should've at least seen for a while what the format looked like, with the promise of future bans. Maybe after one big event with no bans, introduce the first small list of bans and keep going like that. They did the whole thing in a real rush IMO.
Nice common sense with a leveled head. Everything you said makes absolute sense although some concessions should be made. No ban list is almost as bad as having an overactive ban list. Some things are just too powerful and they trump many decks/cards in the first stage of the game. These are pretty few like Skullclamp. Also certain decks are hard to beat without building a deck to beat them even if answers do exist. Control and aggro would struggle with hypergenesis because of it's speed and redundancy. Combo decks like storm and even dark depths can be trumped by cheap spells that are general enough they can be main decked. This just isn't so with hypergenesis.
all 3 of your scenarios are quite true, but hypergen would probably be the boogeyman of the format kinda like zoo probably still is now. There is a fine line between powerful and enigmatic.
But It would be interesting to play test this format on Cockatrice or something like that.
Basically, what I'm saying is that there's no need for this to be a thought experiment when you can do a real experiment!
I agree. I would be up for a few games. Sounds like a fun casual format if nothing else. Some many awesome, nutty, and skill intensive games would follow. It would be almost like legacy without the brokenness.
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The format would be so heavily dependent on the quality of your opening hand that I would probably lose interest. I don't want the format to be "mulligan until you don't lose" like Vintage tends to play out.
The format would be so heavily dependent on the quality of your opening hand that I would probably lose interest. I don't want the format to be "mulligan until you don't lose" like Vintage tends to play out.
It would be nothing like that. This format is already like that if your playing control against zoo. you need two spot removal spells and a snapcaster to keep up. Certain things do need to be banned(like hypergen and Skullclamp), but most of the cards on the ban list are evened out from other cards on the list.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
While not as fast as Legacy Dredge, would dredge be potentially viable, or just not explosive enough. Overextended Dredge basically WAS legacy dredge.
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That deck would be absolutely bonkers, folks. Like, way stronger than Zoo with Clamp, or Hypergenesis. Storm, affinity, maybe shoal. Those are the only decks that would be comparable, and I'm not sure any of them would be.
Something that's kind of funny about this hypothetical format, is that the only counters blue decks would need would be Misstep, pierce, and Spell snare. There really wouldn't be anything else worth countering, since all the combo decks would combo out with 1 and 2 mana spells, all the control decks would be dropping mystics, preordains, confidants, etc, and all the aggro decks would also be full of 1 and 2 drops, and pierce would ideally take care of everything else until you set up a countertop lock or combo win.
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I don't think any of the other decks mentioned can do something as ridiculous as that.
Also, aether vial isn't banned, despite what our resident modern expert slipknot thinks.
In combo.format zoo would still be good.
Now I've heard it all.
sure. Zoo was great pretty good against DD. DD would probably push any storm deck or hypergen out of the format like it did in extended. Remember that banlist only had a few cards(SDT, skullclamp, disciple of the vault and vial) on the ban list. Hypergen was mostly considered rogue in that format. Zoo had the most top 8s out of anything with a full like 14 more than DD did.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
This format would be very different from old extended though. Skullclamp and Disciple tend to do that.
And we would also have new combo decks like Post.
As for Zoo, I actually agree with Slipknot a bit. I doubt it would be tier 1, but you gotta keep in mind, the decks that would pop up to keep the combo decks down (faeries, countertop, stoneblade, merfolk) would have a weak matchup to Zoo, and Zoo DOES have outs to decks like Dark Depths Thopter, and even ways to deal with Hypergenesis. Zoo is notoriously the best aggro deck in a combo meta due to it's ability to adapt itself via playing meddling mages, spell pierces, or whatever else it would presumably need to face the meta. That being said, Clamp Affinity, Elves, Scapeshift, and a lot of the other decks would be brutal against it.
As for Hypergenesis, it's not a turn 1 deck, and never has been. In order to "go off" on turn 1, it needs 2 Simian Spirit Guides, a land, a cascade spell, and then presumably 3 fatties which might not be enough to win, depending on which fatties they are. That hand is extremely rare t1. It's also not that beneficial to try going off turn 1, because you typically want the ability to destroy 2 of the opponent's lands via your creature triggers. T2 it goes off about half the time, but even on the play, it still has to deal with spell pierce, chalice, thoughtseizes, countermagic with a Chrome Mox up, or whatever other standard control cards are thrown at it.
I think Scapeshift would have a place in the meta too, but it would have to be a highly tuned, meta dependent scapeshift in all likelihood. It would probably have a better matchup against the control decks than other combo decks would.
Hypergenesis, Storm, Affinity, DD, and maybe Elves although I think the other decks can pack enough hate for elves even with glimpse in play.
I don't know about that. Elves is better than it against one type of control and dark depths is better against the other type of control. Scapeshift tends to do pretty bad against control except for the aggroshift versions. The regular scapeshift is notorious for wrecking zoo which is why I believe valakut should be unbanned, but that is an agreement for a different thread.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
If you go look at old OE results every elf deck playing went 4-0 or 3-1 almost every tourny. Elves were/are extremely powerful in this format.
sure but they are missing some busted cards that are not in a MRD up format. OE is the same as comparing legacy for the most part. Old extedned didn't have glimpse on the ban list and elves were not even competitive once the meta game adjusted.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
True and...
I lol'd at God of War's Skullclamp rant.
God of War is a funny dude.
This is true for the most part, but Elves are an incredibly powerful combo deck that can pop up in any meta-game that isn't tuned to deal with mass amounts of creatures. Chalice at 1 hurts, but it's much easier answered now that Green Sun's Zenith is available. The best hate for Elves is probably recurring, red removal backed with mental missteps.
Combo elves are pretty competitive in Legacy, because the hate you need to deal with them is entirely different than other combo decks in the format, and even if you stop them from "going off" they can easily reload, combo off again, or just win off aggro beats, which is also quite difficult to handle without firespouts or tons of removal. Unlike most conventional combos in Legacy, counterspells are grossly inefficient at dealing with them, and hand disruption while decent, isn't necessarily going to cripple them.
Thanks; I aim to please lol.
UWU/W BlinkUW
BMono-Black ControlB
Commander:
GWUJenaraGWU
BGeth MBCB
RGXenagosRG
WUBSharuumWUB (retired)
Modern:
xAffinityx (starting)
Standard:
Ha! That's a good one.
STOP!! I lol'd at this too. And I am at work. My co workers think I am crazy.
I will post a small opinion about what would hapen if the banlist were all removed...
Affinity-clamp.dek vs. Hypernonsense
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
A combo is not broken if it can win when your not prepared for it. A combo deck is only broken when you put 10 cards in your sideboard and you still lose to it. Every color other than blue and green can directly answer elves. Blue and green can use artifacts to deal.
Affinity was the same sort of thing. When you didn't expect it all of a sudden two or 3 in the top of for a weekend. Then the next week they have like a 40 win %. It is the old stompy vs sligh Vs necro argument essentially.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
While comparing the banned lists of Modern, Legacy and Vintage, I noticed one thing: they only have three cards in common. Those are:
- Ponder (Modern & Vintage)
- Mental Misstep (Modern & Legacy)
- Skullclamp (Modern & Legacy)
No other card from Modern made the jump to the bigger formats.
Now, one might say "that's because Force of Will/Wasteland/Swords to Plowshares/etc keep them in check!". That is true to an extent. But on the flipside, those formats also have things with a higher powerlevel, like Duals and better mana acceleration. So there are both more powerful offensive and defensive cards.
Thought experiment: What would happen if there was no banned list at all in Modern?
Scenario 1) Affinity is unbeatable
Really? With Ancient Grudge, Shattering Spree, Nature's Claim, Kataki, Stony Silence, Gleeful Sabotage and most of all Mental Misstep (countering Skullclamp), I don't think Affinity would be unbeatable. Also, some combo decks might simply be faster.
Scenario 2) Hypergenesis/Dredge is unbeatable
Similar to Affinity, there are quite a few hate-cards against Hypergenesis like Chalice of the Void, Silence, Ethersworn Canonist, Meddling Mage, discard and counters. The same principle applies to Dredge, there are quite a few cards that hate the graveyard.
Scenario 3) Cawblade/Faeries is unbeatable
While control decks would gain some nice tools (Ancestral, Bitterblossom, Mental Misstep, Jace, Stoneforge, Top, Thopter-Combo), they need to have the right answer to: fast aggro decks like Zoo and Affinity, combo like Hypergenesis and Splinter Twin, grave-based decks like Dredge/Reanimator and other control decks. The chance of having the right answer at the right time against a variety of decks, which attack from different angles, is not very high. So the chance of control decks dominating is also not very high.
The principle behind these scenarios is the same - basically, I think the answers in modern are good enough to handle the threats (and the brokenness cancel each other out), similar to Legacy and Vintage. All the deck above also have barely any impact on the metagames in Legacy and Vintage.
Those are only my first thoughts, so it is very likely that I'm wrong. That's why I want to hear your thoughts!
How would the Modern metagame look without a banned list in your opinion?
P.S: This is pure speculation, but maybe Wizards purposely banned a lot of cards so they can keep the metagame fresh with occasional unbannings?
But It would be interesting to play test this format on Cockatrice or something like that.
Basically, what I'm saying is that there's no need for this to be a thought experiment when you can do a real experiment!
---
Anyway, I agree with the logic that WOTC should've taken things slow as far as bans go. There was no need to rush the new format. They could've first introduced it on an experimental basis (like a beta version) with no ban list. They should've at least seen for a while what the format looked like, with the promise of future bans. Maybe after one big event with no bans, introduce the first small list of bans and keep going like that. They did the whole thing in a real rush IMO.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
all 3 of your scenarios are quite true, but hypergen would probably be the boogeyman of the format kinda like zoo probably still is now. There is a fine line between powerful and enigmatic.
I agree. I would be up for a few games. Sounds like a fun casual format if nothing else. Some many awesome, nutty, and skill intensive games would follow. It would be almost like legacy without the brokenness.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
It would be nothing like that. This format is already like that if your playing control against zoo. you need two spot removal spells and a snapcaster to keep up. Certain things do need to be banned(like hypergen and Skullclamp), but most of the cards on the ban list are evened out from other cards on the list.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
That deck would be absolutely bonkers, folks. Like, way stronger than Zoo with Clamp, or Hypergenesis. Storm, affinity, maybe shoal. Those are the only decks that would be comparable, and I'm not sure any of them would be.