I was curious what different groups were running as their gauntlet decks. My playgroup has melira pod, several U/R combo variants, Martyr, and boros right now. We are planning on adding a jund list and an affinity list as well, but past that we are not sure what else to add. What are your thoughts on decks necessary for a modern gauntlet?
Perhaps add in Delver and Fae. The issue with Modern is the same as Legacy. There are so many decks people can play you just have to test versus what you feel will be the top decks.
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ATM this is what I would test against although the meta could shift weekly until later into the season.
These are the meat of the meta
Jund
Twin
Affinity
Delver/tempo
If you have time
Martyr
Meilira Pod
Bant
Storm
Tron/Teachings/Gifts
R-based aggro(burn, RDWS, boros)
If your really board
Junk/Rock/DC-rock
Zoo
merfolk
faeries
ect/ect/ect
Generally speaking depending on your decks you could probably test against 1 combo, 1 control, Jund, and affinity. Most of the matchup dynamics are quite the same when certain decks face either combo, aggro, control, midrange, or tempo despite the specifics of the deck. Also some tempo decks will test the same as some aggro decks depending on your decks. This little shorthand way of testing could save tons of time.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
ATM this is what I would test against although the meta could shift weekly until later into the season.
These are the meat of the meta
Jund
Twin
Affinity
Delver/tempo
If you have time
Martyr
Meilira Pod
Bant
Storm
Tron/Teachings/Gifts
R-based aggro(burn, RDWS, boros)
If your really board
Junk/Rock/DC-rock
Zoo
merfolk
faeries
ect/ect/ect
Generally speaking depending on your decks you could probably test against 1 combo, 1 control, Jund, and affinity. Most of the matchup dynamics are quite the same when certain decks face either combo, aggro, control, midrange, or tempo despite the specifics of the deck. Also some tempo decks will test the same as some aggro decks depending on your decks. This little shorthand way of testing could save tons of time.
I mostly agree though would subtly change it around;
Test against
Jund- One of the top three. Their sideboard is mostly just good sideboard cards. I would test maindeck games mostly.
Twin- One of the top three. Don't forget to test against Blood Moon in the board if applicable.
Affinity- One of the top three. Don't forget to test against Blood Moon in the board if applicable.
Delver/tempo- This is an easy deck to crank out games against since they are quick regardless of the deck you're playing. It's important to know the matchup. Test maindeck games
If you have time
Meilira Pod- I separate this one because there's so many lists and slight variations change the deck dramatically. I would recommend playing games where you switch between boarded and not and they stay boarded. You are going to come across pod players that decided to preboard against you. Do you have a plan?
also test against
faeries- This is seeing more and more play- though it's similar to delver. Can also bring in Blood moon.
R-based aggro(burn, RDWS, boros)- This opperates similar to Affinity but doesn't get hated out the same way. It is kind of a mix between Jund and Afinity though in how the games play out. Just make sure you cover one of these decks because there are a lot of variations that all have similar game plans.
Tokens- adding that one in here but there are many variations. It's still a good deck and a different deck.
If your really bored... but really I wouldn't bother
Martyr- you can get by without actually testing against this deck unless you're playing an aggressive deck that this deck is trying to beat.
Bant- I think this isn't as important because it's mostly developing and because, while it does combine elements from other decks, nothing is too foreign
Storm- I don't really give this deck credit and especially not if someone's going to pilot it without actually learning the deck. know that it's going to try to combo on turn three or four and have a plan for that happening
Tron/Teachings/Gifts- These all have a mostly different endgame. You have to not let them get there. If you're playing a control deck, this becomes more important to test against. Otherwise, just know how control opperates
Junk/Rock/DC-rock- These decks are mostly developing and have bad matchups against the best decks. Personally I would avoid them untill more work is put into them by the people that want to play them.
Zoo- You should probably have already faced an aggro deck of some sort and this is the same thing but with counterspells but slower like bant burn but faster or like.... Yea... My point is that Zoo also needs to figure out what direction to take their deck in. Don't bother.
merfolk I don't think of this one as important because of it being similar to tempo and faeries, strategy-wise
I didn't think about the various Emrakul decks. They're fairly low in popularity but I think they're the next most powerful that wasn't listed. Everything else is much farther off.
I mostly agree though would subtly change it around;
Test against
Jund- One of the top three. Their sideboard is mostly just good sideboard cards. I would test maindeck games mostly.
Twin- One of the top three. Don't forget to test against Blood Moon in the board if applicable.
Affinity- One of the top three. Don't forget to test against Blood Moon in the board if applicable.
Delver/tempo- This is an easy deck to crank out games against since they are quick regardless of the deck you're playing. It's important to know the matchup. Test maindeck games
If you have time
Meilira Pod- I separate this one because there's so many lists and slight variations change the deck dramatically. I would recommend playing games where you switch between boarded and not and they stay boarded. You are going to come across pod players that decided to preboard against you. Do you have a plan?
also test against
faeries- This is seeing more and more play- though it's similar to delver. Can also bring in Blood moon.
R-based aggro(burn, RDWS, boros)- This opperates similar to Affinity but doesn't get hated out the same way. It is kind of a mix between Jund and Afinity though in how the games play out. Just make sure you cover one of these decks because there are a lot of variations that all have similar game plans.
Tokens- adding that one in here but there are many variations. It's still a good deck and a different deck.
If your really bored... but really I wouldn't bother
Martyr- you can get by without actually testing against this deck unless you're playing an aggressive deck that this deck is trying to beat.
Bant- I think this isn't as important because it's mostly developing and because, while it does combine elements from other decks, nothing is too foreign
Storm- I don't really give this deck credit and especially not if someone's going to pilot it without actually learning the deck. know that it's going to try to combo on turn three or four and have a plan for that happening
Tron/Teachings/Gifts- These all have a mostly different endgame. You have to not let them get there. If you're playing a control deck, this becomes more important to test against. Otherwise, just know how control opperates
Junk/Rock/DC-rock- These decks are mostly developing and have bad matchups against the best decks. Personally I would avoid them untill more work is put into them by the people that want to play them.
Zoo- You should probably have already faced an aggro deck of some sort and this is the same thing but with counterspells but slower like bant burn but faster or like.... Yea... My point is that Zoo also needs to figure out what direction to take their deck in. Don't bother.
merfolk I don't think of this one as important because of it being similar to tempo and faeries, strategy-wise
I didn't think about the various Emrakul decks. They're fairly low in popularity but I think they're the next most powerful that wasn't listed. Everything else is much farther off.
awesome you took the last part of what I said and turned it into words that are understandable. I have never really been good at conveying the thoughts and knowledge ect that I have in my head. Mostly it just comes out hard as incoherent babble.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Seems like a really good gauntlet to be honest. I can't really disagree with anything in there.
I do however agree with the sentiment that you should really expect anything and everything when playing Modern. In standard, or even old extended, the viability of tier 1 strategies is limited due to the card pool. In Modern, or just about any older format, there will always be a given top tier grouping of popular decks, but the differentiation between what is tier 2 and tier 1 is much closer, and a good player with a strong strategy & good cards can easily go rogue and take down a tournament. The fact that the card pool is so large often makes this even more beneficial than in standard, because it can be really hard for a deck to know what you're playing. Even right now, it can be impossible to tell whether an opponent is playing Splinter Twin, UR tempo, Storm, or even something like through the breach within the first 2-3 turns.
Having an opponent think you're playing Twin, when you're actually playing a control deck can be a huge huge advantage (especially when you're playing against a good player).
As Slipknot said however, lots of the archetypes can play similarly. Because of that, you could probably put 1-2 decks in the gauntlet that occupy spaces for multiple decks. Here is how I would construct things with that in mind.
-1 tempo deck (RUG delver, UWR Tempo, Grixis Tempo, UR Fae, Next Level Blue)
-1 Control deck (Tron, Gifts Reanimator, Teachings, UW control)
-1 Swarm based aggro deck (Affinity, Elves)
-1 Non swarm-based aggro deck (Zoo, Boros, Burn)
-1 Non-creature based combo deck (Ad Nauseam, UR storm, Hive Mind)
-1 Creature-based combo deck (Splinter Twin, Melira)
-1 Mid-range deck (Jund, Martyr Proc, Death Cloud)
Basically, just take the aforementioned strategies into account, and generally include the best decks of each strategy. Some decks have randomly different ways in which you should play against them (Martyr Proc for example), but for the most part, similar strategies apply when playing against the above decks.
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-1 tempo deck (RUG delver, UWR Tempo, Grixis Tempo, UR Fae, Next Level Blue)
-1 Control deck (Tron, Gifts Reanimator, Teachings, UW control)
-1 Swarm based aggro deck (Affinity, Elves)
-1 Non swarm-based aggro deck (Zoo, Boros, Burn)
-1 Non-creature based combo deck (Ad Nauseam, UR storm, Hive Mind)
-1 Creature-based combo deck (Splinter Twin, Melira)
-1 Mid-range deck (Jund, Martyr Proc, Death Cloud)
I like that a lot. It looks more at the niche instead of the actual deck which is also what I was trying to say. I will also add that as the format develops more since it is in fact a PTQ format it will lose diversity at least at the high end events. Right now people are still in that stage were they might consider playing random jank Brew #2 just for the hell of it. Having a sound game against most of the general strategies should cover your butt against these rogue ideas.
I'd put BW and GW Tokens on there somewhere, too. It's really consistent in the Dailies.
What sort of niche does that fit into though? I mean if you can beat other creature based decks(i know token cards aren't creatures, but they play similar to traditional aggro decks) then tokens should be about the same except they are probably closer to martyr against aggro.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I like that a lot. It looks more at the niche instead of the actual deck which is also what I was trying to say. I will also add that as the format develops more since it is in fact a PTQ format it will lose diversity at least at the high end events. Right now people are still in that stage were they might consider playing random jank Brew #2 just for the hell of it. Having a sound game against most of the general strategies should cover your butt against these rogue ideas.
What sort of niche does that fit into though? I mean if you can beat other creature based decks(i know token cards aren't creatures, but they play similar to traditional aggro decks) then tokens should be about the same except they are probably closer to martyr against aggro.
That's actually not entirely true.
Most creature decks you can win against by remaining around even with their creature-threats with spot removal. Since the format is relatively light on wraths, not to mention the fact that many of the token producers are instant speed anyway, token decks will outpace any control deck's spot removal, and frequently can chump block aggro decks into oblivion. Any spot removal against a token deck is actually pretty awful, especially the most widely played removal spell in Path to Exile.
It's essentially the same reason why Squadron Hawks are still good, why Bloodbraid Elf is such a strong card, and why Moorland Haunt owns standard.
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For twin, I would put it more into the non-creature based combo. From my experience, it plays out very similarly to the blue red storm deck, save that its combo pieces can be pathed, and don't have to chain forever. The tokens seem like their best fit would be into the mid range category, but it could play out like a swarm aggro deck with some hands. I haven't seen the deck played much, so I don't really know how it plays out. I guess melira should be put into the Mid range category as well, because even though it has the combo kill in it, often the combo is almost an afterthought or bonus to the deck. You need to make sure you have instant speed removal up, but it is nowhere near as explosive as the true combo decks. That leaves 6 groups, which seems like a manageable number to test against and still have time to do some brewing.
Most creature decks you can win against by remaining around even with their creature-threats with spot removal. Since the format is relatively light on wraths, not to mention the fact that many of the token producers are instant speed anyway, token decks will outpace any control deck's spot removal, and frequently can chump block aggro decks into oblivion. Any spot removal against a token deck is actually pretty awful, especially the most widely played removal spell in Path to Exile.
It's essentially the same reason why Squadron Hawks are still good, why Bloodbraid Elf is such a strong card, and why Moorland Haunt owns standard.
I meant in the essence of speed. Tokens are historically slow and I don't see any exception to the in modern. Tron runs wraths and could honestly careless about tokens as long as they counter whatever pumps them. Teachings has a main deck consume the meek, which is probably not enough and it is quite slow. Gifts has a mini-combo that can shut down most of the token generation, and it typically runs a wrath package. All of the control decks are probably good against it, but these decks are all bad in the meta and really underpowered.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Rogue strategies are going to be good in Modern. Rock decks will place from time to time similar to how they do in Legacy. Should they be put in a testing gauntlet? No way. There is far too much variance and preparing your deck for them will actually do you a disservice because of how underrepresented they are and how long it will take to tweak a list.
The only change I would make to my above list would be to make the post about Tokens (which was added last minute) to echo the Mel Pod post. Make a version that would be good against your deck because there are going to be people that have that and if you can somewhat prepare for that, the other Tokens matchups because easy peasy.
To reiterate:
1 Jund
2 Twin
3 Afinity
4 Delver
5 Mel Pod
6 Tokens
7+ Everything else, really- though test (or have a plan) against matchups you think you may have a problem with.
I'd put UR Storm on that list, esp if you play online or in Europe.
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Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
These are the meat of the meta
Jund
Twin
Affinity
Delver/tempo
If you have time
Martyr
Meilira Pod
Bant
Storm
Tron/Teachings/Gifts
R-based aggro(burn, RDWS, boros)
If your really board
Junk/Rock/DC-rock
Zoo
merfolk
faeries
ect/ect/ect
Generally speaking depending on your decks you could probably test against 1 combo, 1 control, Jund, and affinity. Most of the matchup dynamics are quite the same when certain decks face either combo, aggro, control, midrange, or tempo despite the specifics of the deck. Also some tempo decks will test the same as some aggro decks depending on your decks. This little shorthand way of testing could save tons of time.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I mostly agree though would subtly change it around;
Test against
Jund- One of the top three. Their sideboard is mostly just good sideboard cards. I would test maindeck games mostly.
Twin- One of the top three. Don't forget to test against Blood Moon in the board if applicable.
Affinity- One of the top three. Don't forget to test against Blood Moon in the board if applicable.
Delver/tempo- This is an easy deck to crank out games against since they are quick regardless of the deck you're playing. It's important to know the matchup. Test maindeck games
If you have time
Meilira Pod- I separate this one because there's so many lists and slight variations change the deck dramatically. I would recommend playing games where you switch between boarded and not and they stay boarded. You are going to come across pod players that decided to preboard against you. Do you have a plan?
also test against
faeries- This is seeing more and more play- though it's similar to delver. Can also bring in Blood moon.
R-based aggro(burn, RDWS, boros)- This opperates similar to Affinity but doesn't get hated out the same way. It is kind of a mix between Jund and Afinity though in how the games play out. Just make sure you cover one of these decks because there are a lot of variations that all have similar game plans.
Tokens- adding that one in here but there are many variations. It's still a good deck and a different deck.
If your really bored... but really I wouldn't bother
Martyr- you can get by without actually testing against this deck unless you're playing an aggressive deck that this deck is trying to beat.
Bant- I think this isn't as important because it's mostly developing and because, while it does combine elements from other decks, nothing is too foreign
Storm- I don't really give this deck credit and especially not if someone's going to pilot it without actually learning the deck. know that it's going to try to combo on turn three or four and have a plan for that happening
Tron/Teachings/Gifts- These all have a mostly different endgame. You have to not let them get there. If you're playing a control deck, this becomes more important to test against. Otherwise, just know how control opperates
Junk/Rock/DC-rock- These decks are mostly developing and have bad matchups against the best decks. Personally I would avoid them untill more work is put into them by the people that want to play them.
Zoo- You should probably have already faced an aggro deck of some sort and this is the same thing but with counterspells but slower like bant burn but faster or like.... Yea... My point is that Zoo also needs to figure out what direction to take their deck in. Don't bother.
merfolk I don't think of this one as important because of it being similar to tempo and faeries, strategy-wise
I didn't think about the various Emrakul decks. They're fairly low in popularity but I think they're the next most powerful that wasn't listed. Everything else is much farther off.
L1 Judge
awesome you took the last part of what I said and turned it into words that are understandable. I have never really been good at conveying the thoughts and knowledge ect that I have in my head. Mostly it just comes out hard as incoherent babble.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I do however agree with the sentiment that you should really expect anything and everything when playing Modern. In standard, or even old extended, the viability of tier 1 strategies is limited due to the card pool. In Modern, or just about any older format, there will always be a given top tier grouping of popular decks, but the differentiation between what is tier 2 and tier 1 is much closer, and a good player with a strong strategy & good cards can easily go rogue and take down a tournament. The fact that the card pool is so large often makes this even more beneficial than in standard, because it can be really hard for a deck to know what you're playing. Even right now, it can be impossible to tell whether an opponent is playing Splinter Twin, UR tempo, Storm, or even something like through the breach within the first 2-3 turns.
Having an opponent think you're playing Twin, when you're actually playing a control deck can be a huge huge advantage (especially when you're playing against a good player).
As Slipknot said however, lots of the archetypes can play similarly. Because of that, you could probably put 1-2 decks in the gauntlet that occupy spaces for multiple decks. Here is how I would construct things with that in mind.
-1 tempo deck (RUG delver, UWR Tempo, Grixis Tempo, UR Fae, Next Level Blue)
-1 Control deck (Tron, Gifts Reanimator, Teachings, UW control)
-1 Swarm based aggro deck (Affinity, Elves)
-1 Non swarm-based aggro deck (Zoo, Boros, Burn)
-1 Non-creature based combo deck (Ad Nauseam, UR storm, Hive Mind)
-1 Creature-based combo deck (Splinter Twin, Melira)
-1 Mid-range deck (Jund, Martyr Proc, Death Cloud)
Basically, just take the aforementioned strategies into account, and generally include the best decks of each strategy. Some decks have randomly different ways in which you should play against them (Martyr Proc for example), but for the most part, similar strategies apply when playing against the above decks.
I like that a lot. It looks more at the niche instead of the actual deck which is also what I was trying to say. I will also add that as the format develops more since it is in fact a PTQ format it will lose diversity at least at the high end events. Right now people are still in that stage were they might consider playing random jank Brew #2 just for the hell of it. Having a sound game against most of the general strategies should cover your butt against these rogue ideas.
What sort of niche does that fit into though? I mean if you can beat other creature based decks(i know token cards aren't creatures, but they play similar to traditional aggro decks) then tokens should be about the same except they are probably closer to martyr against aggro.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
That's actually not entirely true.
Most creature decks you can win against by remaining around even with their creature-threats with spot removal. Since the format is relatively light on wraths, not to mention the fact that many of the token producers are instant speed anyway, token decks will outpace any control deck's spot removal, and frequently can chump block aggro decks into oblivion. Any spot removal against a token deck is actually pretty awful, especially the most widely played removal spell in Path to Exile.
It's essentially the same reason why Squadron Hawks are still good, why Bloodbraid Elf is such a strong card, and why Moorland Haunt owns standard.
I meant in the essence of speed. Tokens are historically slow and I don't see any exception to the in modern. Tron runs wraths and could honestly careless about tokens as long as they counter whatever pumps them. Teachings has a main deck consume the meek, which is probably not enough and it is quite slow. Gifts has a mini-combo that can shut down most of the token generation, and it typically runs a wrath package. All of the control decks are probably good against it, but these decks are all bad in the meta and really underpowered.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
The only change I would make to my above list would be to make the post about Tokens (which was added last minute) to echo the Mel Pod post. Make a version that would be good against your deck because there are going to be people that have that and if you can somewhat prepare for that, the other Tokens matchups because easy peasy.
To reiterate:
1 Jund
2 Twin
3 Afinity
4 Delver
5 Mel Pod
6 Tokens
7+ Everything else, really- though test (or have a plan) against matchups you think you may have a problem with.
L1 Judge