Forgot about spellskite too. I feel nothing has a good G1 against twin other than something with ghostly prison main and the 1 mana creatures that gain you life.
Our group has been running Esper and Grixis with IoK and significant permission, UR and Twin are practically byes actually. You match up with everything they have and your close out option is either Teferi or Sedraxis Specter, both stifle that deck while putting on a good clock.
Forgot about spellskite too. I feel nothing has a good G1 against twin other than something with ghostly prison main and the 1 mana creatures that gain you life.
The problem with a lot of approaches to fighting Twin is they fail to address all the random resiliences. If you don't have a clock on them, Twin will probably still kill you straight through ghostly prison and Soul Warden.
Spellskite -> Doesn't stop (Kiki + Deciever), can be flameslashed
Lightning Bolt / Helix -> Doesn't stop (Deciever + Twin)
Soul Warden -> Doesn't stop (Pestermite + Anything), can be flameslashed
Ghostly Prison -> Slows them to dealing you 6 or so damage a turn, while they also have infinite blockers
More reliable hate cards are things like Torpor Orb, Dampening Matrix, etc., for which they will have to side in bounce, or try to kill you with Pestermite beats. Targeted discard is also decent against them, assuming you draw enough of it.
As a result, Jund has a reasonable G1 matchup against twin. It depends on who's drawn more of what - you drawing discard, or them drawing combo pieces. You also have some incidental hate in the form of Lightning Bolt (stops Pestermite, but not Deciever) and Terminate, although those tend to get dominated by Spellskite and Dispel. Still, if you draw better than them, or if a Bob sticks and draws you some cards, you come out ahead and eventually kill them. I'd say this matchup works out to somewhere around 50/50.
Affinity also has a reasonable G1 matchup against twin. It is blisteringly fast, and kills by turn 4 about as reliably as Twin does. G1, this matchup depends heavily on who had the good fortune to go first.
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Our group has been running Esper and Grixis with IoK and significant permission, UR and Twin are practically byes actually. You match up with everything they have and your close out option is either Teferi or Sedraxis Specter, both stifle that deck while putting on a good clock.
I've had no problem beating the combo decks with control. Just everything else lol. Discard mixed with counterspells and card draw is plenty enough to stop twin and storm.
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The trick to using Nevermore is naming Skite or Dispel.
so you can then lose to the combo???????? Screw that.
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sure it only gets one piece of the combo, but most only run 1-2 kiki jiki. So the correct thing to call is splinter twin. Card is actually kinda meh against them when you consider that pithing needle is close to the same thing and 1/3 of the mana. Ghostly prison is a much better hate card at the same cost.
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No, the trick is to name Skite or Dispel. Naming Splinter Twin accomplishes nothing.
so you name skite. at the end of your turn they flash in a pestermite then untap and play splinter twin.....maybe I'm missing something here.
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And then you just Slaughter Pact it. Too bad they can't redirect it.
Although, Skite could come down before Nevermore, so I'd prefer Dispel then. It'd be better late anyway because you'll need to win counter wars after turn four.
And then you just Slaughter Pact it. Too bad they can't redirect it.
Although, Skite could come down before Nevermore, so I'd prefer Dispel then. It'd be better late anyway because you'll need to win counter wars after turn four.
or you could just name the most likely combo piece and not have to have one specific card in your hand. Kiki wont happen until a turn later if then. Either way GP is just much better so there is no need in discussing cards that are "tier 2".
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Those two lists only share 8 cards not counting the mana base, and I think you'd be hardpressed to find two lists that were much closer to each other. Seems unlikely that sideboarding into a Storm plan is even remotely an option for success for Splinter Twin decks.
I wouldn't worry about Storm out of the board unless the Twin list you are playing is running maindeck rituals.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Those two lists only share 8 cards not counting the mana base, and I think you'd be hardpressed to find two lists that were much closer to each other. Seems unlikely that sideboarding into a Storm plan is even remotely an option for success for Splinter Twin decks.
I wouldn't worry about Storm out of the board unless the Twin list you are playing is running maindeck rituals.
did you look for the two list that were most different lol. Not all storm list run pyromances asension and not all twin decks run grim lavamancers, echoing truth, (maindeck) spellskite, or 3 kiki.
A generic storm deck(without extra bells and whistles) and a generic twin deck are only ~18 cards different. You can also run Manamorphose main deck in twin to ease this divide. Like i said your main strategy is weaker, but your sideboard will blow people away game 2. You can even keep certain cards in(like some of the counterspells)
It might be easier to board from storm into twin though instead of the other way around.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
did you look for the two list that were most different lol. Not all storm list run pyromances asension and not all twin decks run grim lavamancers, echoing truth, (maindeck) spellskite, or 3 kiki.
No, I simply found the two most recent lists I could find from the Modern Daily Thread. If you can provide 2 lists that are 18 cards closer to each other, please do. (In fact, I ask you to, because otherwise I have no idea what the similar lists should look like, and you rarely back up your assertions with statistical proof.) But my point was that the winningest lists are more likely to resemble the two I posted above. Let's see two lists that are similar, and I will entertain your point with more faith.
It might be easier to board from storm into twin though instead of the other way around.
I do agree here, and in fact this is the only direction I've personally seen the transformation done (again, based on MTGO Daily events).
I'm not saying that it's not possible, just that the sacrifices made to the maindeck might not be worth it, especially when Twin can fight through the hate pretty effectively anyway. But show me some numbers Slipknot.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
No, I simply found the two most recent lists I could find from the Modern Daily Thread. If you can provide 2 lists that are 18 cards closer to each other, please do. (In fact, I ask you to, because otherwise I have no idea what the similar lists should look like, and you rarely back up your assertions with statistical proof.) But my point was that the winningest lists are more likely to resemble the two I posted above. Let's see two lists that are similar, and I will entertain your point with more faith.
I do agree here, and in fact this is the only direction I've personally seen the transformation done (again, based on MTGO Daily events).
I'm not saying that it's not possible, just that the sacrifices made to the maindeck might not be worth it, especially when Twin can fight through the hate pretty effectively anyway. But show me some numbers Slipknot.
that is somewhat hard to do. the core differences of the decks are very low, but like I said the extra bells and whistles are quite different. I will look, but it will require looking through probably hundreds of list to find the two that use the most similar bells and whistles. I could also just build a storm deck with a twin sideboard and let you take it FWIW. Or have someone else test it. I am currently testing too many decks as it is trying to find the solution deck to the meta, and the control deck with the most tier 1 potential.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I agree with you bakgat on Sudden Death, but Fallout only hits their Kikis and Pestermites. If you're in red (which you are if you're paying RR for a spell), you should already have enough outs for those dudes, and most likely your opponent will be focusing more on Spellskite, Deciever, and Splinter Twin as their key cards anyway to fight your Lightning Bolts. Wipe Away only delays them for a turn at best, and I think a Counterspell like Mana Leak is strictly better in that case (you have the hold up the mana either way at your EOT when you think they're going off).
Also, I've seen some lists running Mutagenic Growth, so watch out for that as well. Shuts down almost all the damage spells and toughness reducers, Combust included.
Slipknot, I've already proved that the Storm and Twin lists are pretty far apart, so take that as you will. If you want to show me a couple lists that blend well together, feel free, or you can just brew one up and throw it out there, but untested it won't really mean much. Originally the argument was that Twin can turn into Storm, which I find to be false. While I do think that a Storm deck can SB into a Twin deck reasonably well, I still think that weakens the main deck pretty significantly, and only provides an alternate wincondition after sideboarding, as opposed to a true transformation. If you can find a list that's done decently well somewhere (3-1 say), than I would actually appreciate it because I really would like to know what kind of tech they might use. Otherwise, I'm going to assume it's not that good.
i faced twin the first three rounds of the tournament and my first round twin opp made the top 8 also. Torpor orb + Combust and any reasonable amount of discard/pressure makes it tough for Twin to sit back and wait for the perfect hand to go off.
G1 against jund depends on who's on the play, and the amount of discard the jund player is running/draws.
Junds removal other than bolt is also relevant. Also turn 2 bob really helps the cause for drawing more removal/discard. On average I bet it is the favorite by a bit.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Our group has been running Esper and Grixis with IoK and significant permission, UR and Twin are practically byes actually. You match up with everything they have and your close out option is either Teferi or Sedraxis Specter, both stifle that deck while putting on a good clock.
The problem with a lot of approaches to fighting Twin is they fail to address all the random resiliences. If you don't have a clock on them, Twin will probably still kill you straight through ghostly prison and Soul Warden.
Spellskite -> Doesn't stop (Kiki + Deciever), can be flameslashed
Lightning Bolt / Helix -> Doesn't stop (Deciever + Twin)
Soul Warden -> Doesn't stop (Pestermite + Anything), can be flameslashed
Ghostly Prison -> Slows them to dealing you 6 or so damage a turn, while they also have infinite blockers
More reliable hate cards are things like Torpor Orb, Dampening Matrix, etc., for which they will have to side in bounce, or try to kill you with Pestermite beats. Targeted discard is also decent against them, assuming you draw enough of it.
As a result, Jund has a reasonable G1 matchup against twin. It depends on who's drawn more of what - you drawing discard, or them drawing combo pieces. You also have some incidental hate in the form of Lightning Bolt (stops Pestermite, but not Deciever) and Terminate, although those tend to get dominated by Spellskite and Dispel. Still, if you draw better than them, or if a Bob sticks and draws you some cards, you come out ahead and eventually kill them. I'd say this matchup works out to somewhere around 50/50.
Affinity also has a reasonable G1 matchup against twin. It is blisteringly fast, and kills by turn 4 about as reliably as Twin does. G1, this matchup depends heavily on who had the good fortune to go first.
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If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
I've had no problem beating the combo decks with control. Just everything else lol. Discard mixed with counterspells and card draw is plenty enough to stop twin and storm.
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so you can then lose to the combo???????? Screw that.
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sure it only gets one piece of the combo, but most only run 1-2 kiki jiki. So the correct thing to call is splinter twin. Card is actually kinda meh against them when you consider that pithing needle is close to the same thing and 1/3 of the mana. Ghostly prison is a much better hate card at the same cost.
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so you name skite. at the end of your turn they flash in a pestermite then untap and play splinter twin.....maybe I'm missing something here.
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Although, Skite could come down before Nevermore, so I'd prefer Dispel then. It'd be better late anyway because you'll need to win counter wars after turn four.
or you could just name the most likely combo piece and not have to have one specific card in your hand. Kiki wont happen until a turn later if then. Either way GP is just much better so there is no need in discussing cards that are "tier 2".
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A recent 3-1 Storm list:
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Shivan Reef
1 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Grapeshot
4 Manamorphose
3 Past in Flames
4 Pyretic Ritual
3 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Seething Song
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
VS. a recent Twin list:
2 Cascade Bluffs
3 Halimar Depths
4 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Pestermite
2 Spellskite
3 Dispel
2 Echoing Truth
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
2 Spell Pierce
4 Splinter Twin
Those two lists only share 8 cards not counting the mana base, and I think you'd be hardpressed to find two lists that were much closer to each other. Seems unlikely that sideboarding into a Storm plan is even remotely an option for success for Splinter Twin decks.
I wouldn't worry about Storm out of the board unless the Twin list you are playing is running maindeck rituals.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
did you look for the two list that were most different lol. Not all storm list run pyromances asension and not all twin decks run grim lavamancers, echoing truth, (maindeck) spellskite, or 3 kiki.
A generic storm deck(without extra bells and whistles) and a generic twin deck are only ~18 cards different. You can also run Manamorphose main deck in twin to ease this divide. Like i said your main strategy is weaker, but your sideboard will blow people away game 2. You can even keep certain cards in(like some of the counterspells)
It might be easier to board from storm into twin though instead of the other way around.
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No, I simply found the two most recent lists I could find from the Modern Daily Thread. If you can provide 2 lists that are 18 cards closer to each other, please do. (In fact, I ask you to, because otherwise I have no idea what the similar lists should look like, and you rarely back up your assertions with statistical proof.) But my point was that the winningest lists are more likely to resemble the two I posted above. Let's see two lists that are similar, and I will entertain your point with more faith.
I do agree here, and in fact this is the only direction I've personally seen the transformation done (again, based on MTGO Daily events).
I'm not saying that it's not possible, just that the sacrifices made to the maindeck might not be worth it, especially when Twin can fight through the hate pretty effectively anyway. But show me some numbers Slipknot.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
that is somewhat hard to do. the core differences of the decks are very low, but like I said the extra bells and whistles are quite different. I will look, but it will require looking through probably hundreds of list to find the two that use the most similar bells and whistles. I could also just build a storm deck with a twin sideboard and let you take it FWIW. Or have someone else test it. I am currently testing too many decks as it is trying to find the solution deck to the meta, and the control deck with the most tier 1 potential.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Also, I've seen some lists running Mutagenic Growth, so watch out for that as well. Shuts down almost all the damage spells and toughness reducers, Combust included.
Slipknot, I've already proved that the Storm and Twin lists are pretty far apart, so take that as you will. If you want to show me a couple lists that blend well together, feel free, or you can just brew one up and throw it out there, but untested it won't really mean much. Originally the argument was that Twin can turn into Storm, which I find to be false. While I do think that a Storm deck can SB into a Twin deck reasonably well, I still think that weakens the main deck pretty significantly, and only provides an alternate wincondition after sideboarding, as opposed to a true transformation. If you can find a list that's done decently well somewhere (3-1 say), than I would actually appreciate it because I really would like to know what kind of tech they might use. Otherwise, I'm going to assume it's not that good.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
i faced twin the first three rounds of the tournament and my first round twin opp made the top 8 also. Torpor orb + Combust and any reasonable amount of discard/pressure makes it tough for Twin to sit back and wait for the perfect hand to go off.
Junds removal other than bolt is also relevant. Also turn 2 bob really helps the cause for drawing more removal/discard. On average I bet it is the favorite by a bit.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson