The total lack of this surprises me. In all honesty, the current decks as tier 1 were so obvious as a 'begginer' metagame for the fledling format it was predictable the day of latest bannings in December.
Come on. This a format that supports Phyrexian Obliterators alongside Cryptic commands in the same deck. Where's the exciting ingenuity? Where's the imagination?
No, not an argument about netdecking, this is about how boring the decks out there are considering the toys available.
Modern's way of pushing mana base boundaries is 4+ colour decks and putting in three-colour cards in the same deck as very mono-coloured cards. Teachings somehow manages to fit both Esper Charm and Cryptic Command in the same deck. Tribal Blue Zoo does decently well in four colours (and even stuffs in a Swamp for the heck of itTribal Flames).
Fetches and shocks allow decks to push mana boundaries very far. (Then again, the deck loses consistency and/or speed once it tries to use 4 colours or more--I have sometimes cursed Tribal Blue Zoo's trim mana base that demands I can cast Lightning Helix, Knight of the Reliquary, and Snapcaster Mage by Turn 3.)
...As for ingenuity outside of mana bases, people have managed to figure out that tutoring for equipmentwithout getting a body attached is still pretty good, especially in decks like Affinity (which wants Cranial Plating bad) and Caw-Blade (which would rather have versatility, so it has an equipment toolbox). Someone was also ingenious enough to stick Isochron Scepter in a deck where its main targets are probably Lightning Helix and Path to Exile and therefore support it with a hard tempo core--thus Isochron Delver, or Next Level UWR Patriot Thresh. In that deck, Isochron Scepter probably plays the part of Grim Lavamancer.
Martyr Proc basically grew from a deck that got at least 4-2 at Worlds. I don't think people previously put Serra Ascendant in a deck without SoulSisters before. Now they did--and they have the Martyr of Sands, Ranger of Eos, Squadron Hawk, and sick recursion engine and tendency to grind out games to back it up.
I actually have a soft spot for W/x Tokens. As far as I can tell, it grew from UW Polymorph Tokens--first, someone wanted to abuse Polymorph, then s/he found that tokens were the best way to get creatures without playing creature cards, then people found that they tended to win with the tokens instead of Emrakul, then all the W/x Tokens variants sprang up (Mono-White and GW are the most common, but I predict BW will see play when Dark Ascension comes out).
My issue is that nothing in the current modern is even new. So much of it just ports of decks that were standard legal at the time this sets were legal. None of whats around is new, all decks that were around a long time ago with others just being evolutions of decks already in the meta, aren't seeing new decks, just evolution after evolution of old deck ideas.
And when I say pushing mana, I mean on 2 colour decks. Why has nobody explored the fact that you can play 20-24 dual colour lands, meaning zero risk lost.
Pls, don't see this as netdecking complaint, as not at all, nothing against netdecking, the best want to play the best, which I do myself, I'm just so surprised so little true brewing has been taking place by knows who know how to. Seems like a mountain of possibilities to thump unsuspecting players and honestly expected at least some new decks to have arrived on the scene by now, things that weren't being played last year worlds. This modern format isn't even new, it was what extended was with just a more robust banning, and that's my issue, why are things still very much the same, even with more robust ban list.
Come on. This a format that supports Phyrexian Obliterators alongside Cryptic commands in the same deck. Where's the exciting ingenuity? Where's the imagination?
I'd love to see a viable deck with Olbiterator and Crytpic Commands. I'm not sure the manabase fully supports those two cards together? Just because we have a wide pool to draw from for mana versatility doesn't mean the format "supports" two costly cards in one deck.
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This is why I started playing magic in the first place. It wasn't PT aspirations just making noobs cry by doing things that are perfectly fair.
Martyr Proc was a new brew, are you expecting everyone to just come up with a rogue deck and pilot it to success, there have probably been plenty of new decks that haven't been able to make it to top 8 or top 16 against strategies that have been proven successful for years. I don't feel that this format supports Phyrexian obliterator and Cryptic Command in the same deck at all. To run a mana base that can do that would be sub optimal. You will take so much damage or have so many lands come into play tapped that you will be dead before you get to play either of those too often.
I think you are giving way too many props to the Modern lands. Zoo was a good example of the dangers of being too abitious with shocks and fetches- it could pull it off because it was lightning fast, but if you're not you are hurting yourself too much. That is not to say that I think 4 color decks are impossible, but you have to really carefully construct and play a mana-base like that. I really think that a deck that ran Obliterator + CC would have problems casting both, and a deck running Finks + Demigod would be even worse. Our duals have barbs, and those barbs (be they damage barbs or speed barbs) and those barbs start to hurt when there are too many on top of each other.
I guess the point is just because Modern can do it, doesn't mean decks should. If you reduce the potential for screw and the potential for burning yourself to death, then go for it. I just don't see it working.
BTW- OP, how do you know a decklist like that has not been tried? It could easily have been tried and rejected.
Not true. Martyr - Proc has been ported from old extended
K i can believe this, i was going by something someone else had said, I didn't participate old extended so my knowledge of it is limited. The problem in general with the "lack of ingenuity and imagination" as the OP puts it is that extended was similar enough to modern that just about anything worth doing has been done at some point in some other format, much of it having been done in extended. Most decks have new tricks, but clearly the OP isn't happy with this, he is displeased because nothing brand new has came out and been successful. Delver is new but I'm sure he isn't happy with it technically also being a port from legacy considering I believe that they put delver on the constructed map first. I don't share this point of view, in fact I consider deck innovation within already established decks to demonstrate creativity, ingenuity, and imagination.
The biggest reason is that Blood Moon is a card, and is also a fairly common sideboard strategy in two of the top tier decks.
When taking Blood Moon into consideration when making your mana base, its actually easier to make a 3 or 4 color deck that is not color intensive in any of the colors rather than a deck that is color intensive in just two colors.
A 4 color deck that only ever really cares to have a single mana of any given color needs to get 4 basic lands into play, one of each type.
In your suggested 24duals.dec, you would need 6 (four for obliterator and 2 for baneslayer/elspeth). And thats only if you are actually running those 6 basics to get in the first place.
Another similar pressure is the threat of Gifts Ungiven for Unburial Rites and Iona, Shield of Emeria. The closer you are to monocolor, the more of your deck gets shut off when Iona hits the board.
As for originality in decks, I think you may just be asking for too much. There are really only so many archetypes that exist in magic. Anything that breaks that mold is going to have to come from some odd synergy in cards that were printed years apart. The thing is, the spread of Modern and some of the older extended seasons isn't that different. I mean what you're really saying is that there wasn't any new synergy discovered created by the cards in Zendikar, Scars of Mirrodin, or one set of Innistrad. Is that really so surprising? So we were able to glean what the cards from those that would be good were good while those were in standard, it doesn't seem all that unlikely. You're asking for approximately 7 sets of cards to have some cards that
a) Do not fit into any Standard strategy.
b) Do not fit into any strategy with Cards from Lorwyn forward (because that would be last extended season).
c) Requires a significant amount of deck space to accommodate, otherwise it would just be smashed into an existing archetype.
Those cards just don't come around very often. That said, the delver lists hinge around two innistrad cards, so I think they could be considered to fall into this category. The Jund-colored deck based on burning vengeance could probably also fall under this.
Yes for now, the "best" decks are known quantities from ages past, but if you look closely at the results, I think you might be surprised what else is out there.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
As per your example no deck would have any reason to run those two cards in tandem. Most of the best cards have cheated mana cost like kitchen finks. Not all cards with stupid mana cost are good, let alone good enough for modern.
The current modern format is what extended was before it was destroyed and made Lorwyn forwards. What bugs me is that all the banned list has done is make 3 maybe 4 decks that were played back then not playable anymore. Hasn't introduced anything new and with how easy it was to predict current tier 1 metagame when banned list came out and with what already feels a little stagnant as just aren't seeing anything generally new outside of delver, its only a matter of time before the format gets boring/stagnant, as certain decks are already starting to creep ahead.
Regarding manabase not supporting cards and cards not being good because not being played. Alot of whats being played is done so under the assumption that mana in modern doesn't support it, not because not strong enough. Its very easy to make make a manabase for a 2 colour deck without much pain from the lands and have 24 lands that produce every colour. As for Bloodmoon. So far, all off about 2 decks in the field play the card, so not exactly a particularly big problem at all.
The current modern format is what extended was before it was destroyed and made Lorwyn forwards. What bugs me is that all the banned list has done is make 3 maybe 4 decks that were played back then not playable anymore. Hasn't introduced anything new and with how easy it was to predict current tier 1 metagame when banned list came out and with what already feels a little stagnant as just aren't seeing anything generally new outside of delver, its only a matter of time before the format gets boring/stagnant, as certain decks are already starting to creep ahead.
I agree, but what can you do lol. There is this false preconception that banning certain decks will make more decks playable. Really you can only have 2 tier 1 combo decks, 1 tier 1 control deck, 1 tier 1 aggro deck, then 1-2 midrange/junk/tempo/aggro-control decks.
We have both types of combo: twin and storm(might not be tier 1)
Boros or affinity is most likely going to be the aggro deck in results are any sign.
Jund and delver/fae decks are going to fill the extra 2 spots.
Control: who really knows. Nothing is even close to homerun tier 1 status so far.
Regarding manabase not supporting cards and cards not being good because not being played. Alot of whats being played is done so under the assumption that mana in modern doesn't support it, not because not strong enough. Its very easy to make make a manabase for a 2 colour deck without much pain from the lands and have 24 lands that produce every colour. As for Bloodmoon. So far, all off about 2 decks in the field play the card, so not exactly a particularly big problem at all.
What is being done under that assumption? I don't see any benefit in splashing colors in the top tier decks. I could be wrong, but even with insane mana base capabilities you do still lose consistency with every color above 2. It isn't very noticeable with 3 colors, but 4 or 5 is easily noticed. If you look at legacy you will often see decks only running 2-3 colors even though they have every fetch and fetchable duals that don't cost life.
Honestly that last season of old extended was one of the most fun times I ever played magic, so I'm all for unbanning everything but that'd be to broken, there is a bunch of decks.now that are at least good, they don't have.to be tier one to win a tournament.
Come on. This a format that supports Phyrexian Obliterators alongside Cryptic commands in the same deck. Where's the exciting ingenuity? Where's the imagination?
No, not an argument about netdecking, this is about how boring the decks out there are considering the toys available.
Surely something like:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
2 Elspeth Knight-Errant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Baneslayer Angel
Is just a rocking good start for something exciting don't you think?
What about Kitchen Finks and Demigods in something Red/Green?
Or Demigods and Cryptic Commands side by side?
Why aren't we seeing discussions like this for a format with a ban list specifically designed create a world for this?
So here's the question. Where has the ingenuity and imagation gone?
Why such limited thinking so far, already a month into the ptq season?
the heck of itTribal Flames).Fetches and shocks allow decks to push mana boundaries very far. (Then again, the deck loses consistency and/or speed once it tries to use 4 colours or more--I have sometimes cursed Tribal Blue Zoo's trim mana base that demands I can cast Lightning Helix, Knight of the Reliquary, and Snapcaster Mage by Turn 3.)
...As for ingenuity outside of mana bases, people have managed to figure out that tutoring for equipment without getting a body attached is still pretty good, especially in decks like Affinity (which wants Cranial Plating bad) and Caw-Blade (which would rather have versatility, so it has an equipment toolbox). Someone was also ingenious enough to stick Isochron Scepter in a deck where its main targets are probably Lightning Helix and Path to Exile and therefore support it with a hard tempo core--thus Isochron Delver, or Next Level UWR Patriot Thresh. In that deck, Isochron Scepter probably plays the part of Grim Lavamancer.
Martyr Proc basically grew from a deck that got at least 4-2 at Worlds. I don't think people previously put Serra Ascendant in a deck without Soul Sisters before. Now they did--and they have the Martyr of Sands, Ranger of Eos, Squadron Hawk, and sick recursion engine and tendency to grind out games to back it up.
I actually have a soft spot for W/x Tokens. As far as I can tell, it grew from UW Polymorph Tokens--first, someone wanted to abuse Polymorph, then s/he found that tokens were the best way to get creatures without playing creature cards, then people found that they tended to win with the tokens instead of Emrakul, then all the W/x Tokens variants sprang up (Mono-White and GW are the most common, but I predict BW will see play when Dark Ascension comes out).
And when I say pushing mana, I mean on 2 colour decks. Why has nobody explored the fact that you can play 20-24 dual colour lands, meaning zero risk lost.
Pls, don't see this as netdecking complaint, as not at all, nothing against netdecking, the best want to play the best, which I do myself, I'm just so surprised so little true brewing has been taking place by knows who know how to. Seems like a mountain of possibilities to thump unsuspecting players and honestly expected at least some new decks to have arrived on the scene by now, things that weren't being played last year worlds. This modern format isn't even new, it was what extended was with just a more robust banning, and that's my issue, why are things still very much the same, even with more robust ban list.
I'd love to see a viable deck with Olbiterator and Crytpic Commands. I'm not sure the manabase fully supports those two cards together? Just because we have a wide pool to draw from for mana versatility doesn't mean the format "supports" two costly cards in one deck.
I guess the point is just because Modern can do it, doesn't mean decks should. If you reduce the potential for screw and the potential for burning yourself to death, then go for it. I just don't see it working.
BTW- OP, how do you know a decklist like that has not been tried? It could easily have been tried and rejected.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Not true. Martyr - Proc has been ported from old extended
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
K i can believe this, i was going by something someone else had said, I didn't participate old extended so my knowledge of it is limited. The problem in general with the "lack of ingenuity and imagination" as the OP puts it is that extended was similar enough to modern that just about anything worth doing has been done at some point in some other format, much of it having been done in extended. Most decks have new tricks, but clearly the OP isn't happy with this, he is displeased because nothing brand new has came out and been successful. Delver is new but I'm sure he isn't happy with it technically also being a port from legacy considering I believe that they put delver on the constructed map first. I don't share this point of view, in fact I consider deck innovation within already established decks to demonstrate creativity, ingenuity, and imagination.
When taking Blood Moon into consideration when making your mana base, its actually easier to make a 3 or 4 color deck that is not color intensive in any of the colors rather than a deck that is color intensive in just two colors.
A 4 color deck that only ever really cares to have a single mana of any given color needs to get 4 basic lands into play, one of each type.
In your suggested 24duals.dec, you would need 6 (four for obliterator and 2 for baneslayer/elspeth). And thats only if you are actually running those 6 basics to get in the first place.
Another similar pressure is the threat of Gifts Ungiven for Unburial Rites and Iona, Shield of Emeria. The closer you are to monocolor, the more of your deck gets shut off when Iona hits the board.
As for originality in decks, I think you may just be asking for too much. There are really only so many archetypes that exist in magic. Anything that breaks that mold is going to have to come from some odd synergy in cards that were printed years apart. The thing is, the spread of Modern and some of the older extended seasons isn't that different. I mean what you're really saying is that there wasn't any new synergy discovered created by the cards in Zendikar, Scars of Mirrodin, or one set of Innistrad. Is that really so surprising? So we were able to glean what the cards from those that would be good were good while those were in standard, it doesn't seem all that unlikely. You're asking for approximately 7 sets of cards to have some cards that
a) Do not fit into any Standard strategy.
b) Do not fit into any strategy with Cards from Lorwyn forward (because that would be last extended season).
c) Requires a significant amount of deck space to accommodate, otherwise it would just be smashed into an existing archetype.
Those cards just don't come around very often. That said, the delver lists hinge around two innistrad cards, so I think they could be considered to fall into this category. The Jund-colored deck based on burning vengeance could probably also fall under this.
Yes for now, the "best" decks are known quantities from ages past, but if you look closely at the results, I think you might be surprised what else is out there.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
As per your example no deck would have any reason to run those two cards in tandem. Most of the best cards have cheated mana cost like kitchen finks. Not all cards with stupid mana cost are good, let alone good enough for modern.
Regarding manabase not supporting cards and cards not being good because not being played. Alot of whats being played is done so under the assumption that mana in modern doesn't support it, not because not strong enough. Its very easy to make make a manabase for a 2 colour deck without much pain from the lands and have 24 lands that produce every colour. As for Bloodmoon. So far, all off about 2 decks in the field play the card, so not exactly a particularly big problem at all.
I agree, but what can you do lol. There is this false preconception that banning certain decks will make more decks playable. Really you can only have 2 tier 1 combo decks, 1 tier 1 control deck, 1 tier 1 aggro deck, then 1-2 midrange/junk/tempo/aggro-control decks.
We have both types of combo: twin and storm(might not be tier 1)
Boros or affinity is most likely going to be the aggro deck in results are any sign.
Jund and delver/fae decks are going to fill the extra 2 spots.
Control: who really knows. Nothing is even close to homerun tier 1 status so far.
What is being done under that assumption? I don't see any benefit in splashing colors in the top tier decks. I could be wrong, but even with insane mana base capabilities you do still lose consistency with every color above 2. It isn't very noticeable with 3 colors, but 4 or 5 is easily noticed. If you look at legacy you will often see decks only running 2-3 colors even though they have every fetch and fetchable duals that don't cost life.