They both are really oppressive to dude lovers. Add fringe oppressors like Dispatch and Tragic Slip it seems like the landscape is bleak for creatures.
They do make a lot of otherwise good creatures bad. I'm wondering if something should not be done about it.
I hear you. A lot of people are playing shackles now too. You just need to adapt to this by playing new creatures. Thrun is my go to guy. He can win games by himself against all that removal, counters, or shackles. I've even seen people starting to play Great Sable Stag. There's also discard to destroy their hand and get all that hate out of it. The loam engine with raven's crime is making a showing now. Trust me, its not hopeless. If your losing to lots of removal try to give your deck some more reach with these cards so you don't fold to it.
They both are really oppressive to dude lovers. Add fringe oppressors like Dispatch and Tragic Slip it seems like the landscape is bleak for creatures.
They do make a lot of otherwise good creatures bad. I'm wondering if something should not be done about it.
And the banned list is ever more unfair to those who don't. Play Kira, or turn aside if you can't beat a path to exile.
Tokens, strangleroot geist, nice removal! You gonna path my 2 mana geist? OK! The only creatures that aren't good against removal I'll be playing are creatures that are so good that need to be removed asap, aka confidant and goyf (if they reprint it, ofc).
There has been a spiraling of good creatures thus better removal thus better creatures such that many creatures are junk (and some creatures that were good are no longer).
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most creatures aren't as good anymore because better replacements have been made. For instance tarmogoyf being a card makes at least 10 other green two drops completely unplayable.(not to mention hurting the diversity of aggro and giving aggro decks or midrange decks that run goyf a huge advantage over tribal decks who tend to play more average size creatures)
I ask this: even with all of this removal. In a format were combo exist. Why is control not tier 1. Blame jund and tempo decks. To be fair path is not in any tier 1 deck. Just black and red removal.(in jund, twin, and delver decks)
It also really depends on your deck. Boros is seemingly doing ok. I don't think it is too strong against jund, but I know what it does to tempo decks and it is probably fast enough to wreck twin with a little hate.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I don't understand, modern is dominated by creature based strategies. The top decks are agro control variants, twin, jund, affinity, tron, storm, and the pod based decks. Out of those decks the only one that isn't based around creatures is storm. There are relatively no pure control decks right now. Basically just the gifts/techings decks.
I think you just need to evaluate what creatures are good. You need to be playing cheap efficient creatures that impact the game but don't cause you to be blown out if they die to 1 mana removal spells. Or you need to play creatures that are over the top and the game is just over (tron).
But that's just the nature of the format. Just like Legacy is defined by what it's defined by, Modern is defined by efficient removal (or pretty much extreme value/cost ratio in general).
I don't understand, modern is dominated by creature based strategies. The top decks are agro control variants, twin, jund, affinity, tron, storm, and the pod based decks. Out of those decks the only one that isn't based around creatures is storm. There are relatively no pure control decks right now. Basically just the gifts/techings decks.
I think you just need to evaluate what creatures are good. You need to be playing cheap efficient creatures that impact the game but don't cause you to be blown out if they die to 1 mana removal spells. Or you need to play creatures that are over the top and the game is just over (tron).
R&D is fashioning Modern into their ideal format. Standard rotates too fast for them to really control what's going on. Legacy and Vintage will always be out of control because the cardpool stretches back so far. Everyone hates Extended. So Modern is really the only format they can fashion into what they want, and fashion it they have. Agro-Combo, Agro-Control, and Agro-Agro is exactly the paper-rock-scissors format they want.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
The removal is good in Modern, but so are the creatures. Path to Exile seems pretty fair to me, take that basic land! Dismember HURTS a lot, especially with the Shocks and Fetches. Lightning Bolt has been around forever, and doesn't do much against X/4's or better.
You just have to expect some number of removal spells, and plan accordingly. Play MORE dudes, or add some planeswalkers and other threats to your deck. Hexproof, as mentioned, is great. So are creatures with ETB abilities. Bob is awesome because if you don't answer him, he will eventually replace himself (and then some). Faster dudes like Goblin Guide and Steppe Lynx will usually get in some damage before they die, so they're basically worth a free burn spell at that point.
It might be intimidating to play against a deck you think has all the removal, but trust me when I say they are just as scared that you will land a creature they can't deal with.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
What? I have never felt like removal was "too oppressive" in this format, and I play nothing but aggro. In fact, aggro is the dominant strategy in the format right now, even with combo running rampant. I.. don't get it.
Eh those aren't really Aggro-combo decks, Junk Depths is more of a Midrange Deck and Stiflenaut is more of a Tempo/Aggro-Control deck. Dredge in legacy is the poster child of Aggro-Combo decks, it beats you down with Zombie tokens, Ichorids, Narcomoebas and Putrid Imps but it can also "combo" out and reanimate a huge threat or reanimate a Flame-kin Zealot and make a bunch of hasty Zombies.
As for removal being oppressive, I really don't think it is in the slightest, we have a lot of quality removal spells that see tons of play, but all the best strategies tend to play quite a few creatures so clearly creature based strategies aren't really being oppressed.
Fair enough, I'll take Poly-Tokens and especially Dredge as Aggro-Combo deck examples. I suppose NO(Natural Order) RUG/Bant in Legacy are examples as well. I've just never used the term "Aggro-Combo" before. Besides Poly-Tokens I don't think there is any established deck in Modern (and tokens is hardly established) that could qualify as such anyway.
And I agree that the removal in this format is fine.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Now someone is crying about cards stopping the game from becoming "me turn dude sideways RAWR!"
What's next?
I'm sorry OP but if you think the removal in this format is oppressive your building your decks wrong.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I hope you are not being serious, the deck that suceeds the most is Zoo...Not sure if you heard but they play quite a number of dudes. Also, There is no effecient way to counter spells in the format because even Mana leak is too slow.
R&D is fashioning Modern into their ideal format. Standard rotates too fast for them to really control what's going on. Legacy and Vintage will always be out of control because the cardpool stretches back so far. Everyone hates Extended. So Modern is really the only format they can fashion into what they want, and fashion it they have. Agro-Combo, Agro-Control, and Agro-Agro is exactly the paper-rock-scissors format they want.
except that strategy will lead to the format growing stale. Jund or twin will just be the best deck then we will have one deck ruling the format. Think affinity, jund, faeries, caw-blade. Honestly modern feels more like standard than an older format...
Eh those aren't really Aggro-combo decks, Junk Depths is more of a Midrange Deck and Stiflenaut is more of a Tempo/Aggro-Control deck. Dredge in legacy is the poster child of Aggro-Combo decks, it beats you down with Zombie tokens, Ichorids, Narcomoebas and Putrid Imps but it can also "combo" out and reanimate a huge threat or reanimate a Flame-kin Zealot and make a bunch of hasty Zombies.
As for removal being oppressive, I really don't think it is in the slightest, we have a lot of quality removal spells that see tons of play, but all the best strategies tend to play quite a few creatures so clearly creature based strategies aren't really being oppressed.
Well this deck does not exist anymore, but one of the 60 different decks in old extedned to make a few top 8s was aggroshift. It was essentially a zooish deck that ran scapeshift+valakut. One of my favorite turn dudes sideways decks because if your opponent had not see it they would **** themselves when you busted out the combo. True Aggro-combo hybrids are quite rare, but they do exist.
Now someone is crying about cards stopping the game from becoming "me turn dude sideways RAWR!"
What's next?
I'm sorry OP but if you think the removal in this format is oppressive your building your decks wrong.
This is my point. This is what I have been saying all along lol. Most aggro players are not happy unless they can run 40 creature decks, or tribal aggro decks. Those aren't going to be good in modern. Combo is still powerful enough to prevent that, not to mention that tribal kinda blows when you don't have busted cards.(piledriver, lackey)
Maybe the OP should just play boros. Red based aggro is where its at in modern. You could even try running a boros+x just to see what it is like.
I hope you are not being serious, the deck that suceeds the most is Zoo...Not sure if you heard but they play quite a number of dudes. Also, There is no effecient way to counter spells in the format because even Mana leak is too slow.
Zoo is mostly rare in this format atm. jund is the new super-beast. However the best 3 decks in the format are creature based.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
except that strategy will lead to the format growing stale. Jund or twin will just be the best deck then we will have one deck ruling the format. Think affinity, jund, faeries, caw-blade. Honestly modern feels more like standard than an older format...
Well this deck does not exist anymore, but one of the 60 different decks in old extedned to make a few top 8s was aggroshift. It was essentially a zooish deck that ran scapeshift+valakut. One of my favorite turn dudes sideways decks because if your opponent had not see it they would **** themselves when you busted out the combo. True Aggro-combo hybrids are quite rare, but they do exist.
This is my point. This is what I have been saying all along lol. Most aggro players are not happy unless they can run 40 creature decks, or tribal aggro decks. Those aren't going to be good in modern. Combo is still powerful enough to prevent that, not to mention that tribal kinda blows when you don't have busted cards.(piledriver, lackey)
Maybe the OP should just play boros. Red based aggro is where its at in modern. You could even try running a boros+x just to see what it is like.
Zoo is mostly rare in this format atm. jund is the new super-beast. However the best 3 decks in the format are creature based.
You know something is wrong when we agree. Though it is nice to see we share some ideas.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Yes, personally, efficient removals in Modern warps my deck building. "Does it pass the PTE test"? Has it done its job before getting killed i.e. creatures who has ETB abilities? Is the strength of the creature good enough to be worth a risk e.g. Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf? Is the creature expendable to make the 1 land worth the trade e.g. tokens, Squadron Hawk?
In this format, I feel any deck that can't generate consistent card advantage are bad. That's why Zoo is on the decline, and has to rely on Snapcaster Mage to generate some form of card advantage. BBE is what makes Jund tick. Pod isn't a bad deck but after playtesting, it feels way too 'fair' when my opponent is doing unfair things.
The only way to combat removals is to choose your creature base wisely. Find some creatures which pass the above mentioned tests and make your opponent regret, or at least frown, as he is forced to use PTE on a simple dork like a Squadron Hawk, when another is on its way.
I've been compiling the SE and PTQ meta information, and Zoo, quite frankly, sucks in today's Modern World. It may have run rampant at first, but with the loss of Wild Nacatl, it's "just another Aggro deck". And a poor one at that.
EDIT: Somehow I think many people entering into GP Lincoln are going to find that out the hard way.
Path to Exile
Lightning Bolt
Dismember
They both are really oppressive to dude lovers. Add fringe oppressors like Dispatch and Tragic Slip it seems like the landscape is bleak for creatures.
They do make a lot of otherwise good creatures bad. I'm wondering if something should not be done about it.
And the banned list is ever more unfair to those who don't. Play Kira, or turn aside if you can't beat a path to exile.
There has been a spiraling of good creatures thus better removal thus better creatures such that many creatures are junk (and some creatures that were good are no longer).
I ask this: even with all of this removal. In a format were combo exist. Why is control not tier 1. Blame jund and tempo decks. To be fair path is not in any tier 1 deck. Just black and red removal.(in jund, twin, and delver decks)
It also really depends on your deck. Boros is seemingly doing ok. I don't think it is too strong against jund, but I know what it does to tempo decks and it is probably fast enough to wreck twin with a little hate.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I think you just need to evaluate what creatures are good. You need to be playing cheap efficient creatures that impact the game but don't cause you to be blown out if they die to 1 mana removal spells. Or you need to play creatures that are over the top and the game is just over (tron).
But that's just the nature of the format. Just like Legacy is defined by what it's defined by, Modern is defined by efficient removal (or pretty much extreme value/cost ratio in general).
R&D is fashioning Modern into their ideal format. Standard rotates too fast for them to really control what's going on. Legacy and Vintage will always be out of control because the cardpool stretches back so far. Everyone hates Extended. So Modern is really the only format they can fashion into what they want, and fashion it they have. Agro-Combo, Agro-Control, and Agro-Agro is exactly the paper-rock-scissors format they want.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
The removal is good in Modern, but so are the creatures. Path to Exile seems pretty fair to me, take that basic land! Dismember HURTS a lot, especially with the Shocks and Fetches. Lightning Bolt has been around forever, and doesn't do much against X/4's or better.
You just have to expect some number of removal spells, and plan accordingly. Play MORE dudes, or add some planeswalkers and other threats to your deck. Hexproof, as mentioned, is great. So are creatures with ETB abilities. Bob is awesome because if you don't answer him, he will eventually replace himself (and then some). Faster dudes like Goblin Guide and Steppe Lynx will usually get in some damage before they die, so they're basically worth a free burn spell at that point.
It might be intimidating to play against a deck you think has all the removal, but trust me when I say they are just as scared that you will land a creature they can't deal with.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
CG
Eh those aren't really Aggro-combo decks, Junk Depths is more of a Midrange Deck and Stiflenaut is more of a Tempo/Aggro-Control deck. Dredge in legacy is the poster child of Aggro-Combo decks, it beats you down with Zombie tokens, Ichorids, Narcomoebas and Putrid Imps but it can also "combo" out and reanimate a huge threat or reanimate a Flame-kin Zealot and make a bunch of hasty Zombies.
As for removal being oppressive, I really don't think it is in the slightest, we have a lot of quality removal spells that see tons of play, but all the best strategies tend to play quite a few creatures so clearly creature based strategies aren't really being oppressed.
CG
And I agree that the removal in this format is fine.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Now someone is crying about cards stopping the game from becoming "me turn dude sideways RAWR!"
What's next?
I'm sorry OP but if you think the removal in this format is oppressive your building your decks wrong.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Thanks to Rivenor for the awesome Signature!
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except that strategy will lead to the format growing stale. Jund or twin will just be the best deck then we will have one deck ruling the format. Think affinity, jund, faeries, caw-blade. Honestly modern feels more like standard than an older format...
Well this deck does not exist anymore, but one of the 60 different decks in old extedned to make a few top 8s was aggroshift. It was essentially a zooish deck that ran scapeshift+valakut. One of my favorite turn dudes sideways decks because if your opponent had not see it they would **** themselves when you busted out the combo. True Aggro-combo hybrids are quite rare, but they do exist.
This is my point. This is what I have been saying all along lol. Most aggro players are not happy unless they can run 40 creature decks, or tribal aggro decks. Those aren't going to be good in modern. Combo is still powerful enough to prevent that, not to mention that tribal kinda blows when you don't have busted cards.(piledriver, lackey)
Maybe the OP should just play boros. Red based aggro is where its at in modern. You could even try running a boros+x just to see what it is like.
Zoo is mostly rare in this format atm. jund is the new super-beast. However the best 3 decks in the format are creature based.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
You know something is wrong when we agree. Though it is nice to see we share some ideas.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
In this format, I feel any deck that can't generate consistent card advantage are bad. That's why Zoo is on the decline, and has to rely on Snapcaster Mage to generate some form of card advantage. BBE is what makes Jund tick. Pod isn't a bad deck but after playtesting, it feels way too 'fair' when my opponent is doing unfair things.
The only way to combat removals is to choose your creature base wisely. Find some creatures which pass the above mentioned tests and make your opponent regret, or at least frown, as he is forced to use PTE on a simple dork like a Squadron Hawk, when another is on its way.
We have lots of data, but one thing we don't have is win percentage, which isn't always the same as percentage of the field.
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