Just a brief interjection. Someone claimed storm Gifts wasn't control, because it didn't have enough answers in it. Just to make sure, you have to include the 4 Merchant Scrolls in my list as defensive cards, as they're terrible cards if you don't often grab countermagic or answers with them, and you should include Gifts itself, which generally can represent 2 answer cards or draw spells on its own, and it adds up very quickly. The deck can grind the game out with the best of them. I'm not claiming it's
Your not claiming its what? Sorry its just that you didn't finish that sentence. I've seen most of the gifts list posted. And most were just as all-in as traditional storm and only used a different engine to guarantee comboing (gifts). The other lists that weren't all in, only had like 10 answers in total, at most. Lets also not forget that if you are using gifts to represent control cards (cause you draw them), then its still not very controlling cause you want to consistently get to your answers before turn 4/3. Sorry, its just not control.
Waiting till turn 4 to get answers is not something a control deck does. Running ten answers is also something that they don't do. They usually run 18+.
It's not really control. But it's a lot more controlling than the basic lists look.
Take my own list:
In it, there are 8 pieces of countermagic, 4 Mass Removal Spells, and 5 Tutors for those cards, discounting Gifts itself. But where a more basic control deck relies on getting the answers and using them to buy time until it can outdraw the opponent and slam giant threats, these decks use tutors to add inherent versatility, by allowing you to always have the right answer at the right time. At the same time, those tutors can later be used offensively, to set up a devastating, nigh-unstoppable combo finish.
Now, look at the number of finishers the decks play. Generally, that's 1-3. The Gifts Storm decks aren't planning on going all-in on a combo. They want to grind out the game, then use the Gifts/Past in Flames card advantage engine, in many ways one of the most powerful draw engines in modern if not the most powerful, to generate a massive game swing, often winning on the spot. The Storm kill is in many ways just incidental, the most effective win con available with that engine. But if you were to take my gifts list and try to pilot it as an all-in storm combo deck, you should be ready to lose. A lot. The entire plan of the deck is to grind the opponent out with a strong card advantage engine and dedicated answers, then finish with an immense Past in Flames. That sounds like a control deck to me, of a kind. It's just replaced creature finishers with spell finishers.
True, it's not a pure control deck. It's a hybrid, a control-combo deck, one fully capable of grinding the game out and of killing the opponent on turn 4. You don't do it justice by not seeing it as such.
I don't mean to insult you: I just want to point out that a lot of decks are to complex to be labelled as "just combo" or "just control" or "just aggro". Hybridization is becoming the norm, and we have to go with it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Go to my blog, Musings of the False God, for in-depth guides playing the game, from the building blocks of deck design to deceiving your opponent through clever game play!
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
It's not really control. But it's a lot more controlling than the basic lists look.
Take my own list:
In it, there are 8 pieces of countermagic, 4 Mass Removal Spells, and 5 Tutors for those cards, discounting Gifts itself. But where a more basic control deck relies on getting the answers and using them to buy time until it can outdraw the opponent and slam giant threats, these decks use tutors to add inherent versatility, by allowing you to always have the right answer at the right time. At the same time, those tutors can later be used offensively, to set up a devastating, nigh-unstoppable combo finish.
Now, look at the number of finishers the decks play. Generally, that's 1-3. The Gifts Storm decks aren't planning on going all-in on a combo. They want to grind out the game, then use the Gifts/Past in Flames card advantage engine, in many ways one of the most powerful draw engines in modern if not the most powerful, to generate a massive game swing, often winning on the spot. The Storm kill is in many ways just incidental, the most effective win con available with that engine. But if you were to take my gifts list and try to pilot it as an all-in storm combo deck, you should be ready to lose. A lot. The entire plan of the deck is to grind the opponent out with a strong card advantage engine and dedicated answers, then finish with an immense Past in Flames. That sounds like a control deck to me, of a kind. It's just replaced creature finishers with spell finishers.
True, it's not a pure control deck. It's a hybrid, a control-combo deck, one fully capable of grinding the game out and of killing the opponent on turn 4. You don't do it justice by not seeing it as such.
I don't mean to insult you: I just want to point out that a lot of decks are to complex to be labelled as "just combo" or "just control" or "just aggro". Hybridization is becoming the norm, and we have to go with it.
I understand you're not trying to insult me. Im not i-never-smile here. I don't see disagreement as a personal insult. So you don't have to worry about insulting me.
The thing is. How do you plan on "dragging out the game" when you have to tutor for most of your answers? I guess I don't consider "controllish" to be "control". But I do agree it is more "controllish" than others
Another problem I have with saying that its control in this meta, it that it has never really put up serious numbers. Even when I see Gifts lists in places as lowly as Daily Events they are usually similar to the semi-successful GP Lincoln list: the all-in version of Gifts storm. I've never seen the "controllish" version of storm do well in high level events. Now, that might be due to the fact that its new.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
Ehh I didn't say it isn't, in fact I've been saying wall of omens is the card control players should be playing instead of moaning because control is not good enough.
Thank you for mentoring us on an archetype you admittedly never play...
Wall of Omens doesn't have flying. It only blocks a third of the creatures outside the jund matchup. I run 4 in a Solar Flare list I made and Jund is the only matchup that it doesn't just cycle for 2 mana. Though I suppose speed-bumping Tarmogoyf counts for something.
That's the Top 8 for Grand Prix Baltimore. There was a ton of UB Control decks on Day 2. The Top 8 alone had 3.
Was it a boring, ridiculously slow tournament? Hell no. The announcers themselves kept talking about how epic the matches were. There's a couple UB Control mirror matches that were actually the most entertaining according to the people commentating. I was obviously glued to my seat, but when you got independent observers telling you how surprised they were that watching a control mirror was so great, you know it's true. One of them even said it was the most exciting Grand Prix they've ever seen!
Maybe it's a pain to play against crummy/inexperienced players who can't possibly play fast enough to finish 3 games in 50 minutes, but I hope WotC takes this as a sign that a stronger Control presence is a good thing for the game. This particular UB Control deck that's floating is really just capitalizing off the out-of-control tempo deck which always rules Standard in Control's absence. It'd be nice to have Control decks present from day 1, and not only after Tempo swallows the metageme.
Thank you for mentoring us on an archetype you admittedly never play...
Wall of Omens doesn't have flying. It only blocks a third of the creatures outside the jund matchup. I run 4 in a Solar Flare list I made and Jund is the only matchup that it doesn't just cycle for 2 mana. Though I suppose speed-bumping Tarmogoyf counts for something.
There was a time in which I loved playing control. Fact or fiction was my favorite card.
I understand you're not trying to insult me. Im not i-never-smile here. I don't see disagreement as a personal insult. So you don't have to worry about insulting me.
The thing is. How do you plan on "dragging out the game" when you have to tutor for most of your answers? I guess I don't consider "controllish" to be "control". But I do agree it is more "controllish" than others
Another problem I have with saying that its control in this meta, it that it has never really put up serious numbers. Even when I see Gifts lists in places as lowly as Daily Events they are usually similar to the semi-successful GP Lincoln list: the all-in version of Gifts storm. I've never seen the "controllish" version of storm do well in high level events. Now, that might be due to the fact that its new.
Well, the deck is basically built like a vintage control deck, and if you've every played vintage control before, you know what I mean when I say it's stupidly complicated. The deck has a tendency to create vast decision trees, which can be oppressive to prospective players, I think. Powerful tutor-based decks naturally create situations with a lot of decisions that have to be made, and provide lots of opportunities to mess up. And it is quite new.
Basically, the reason I think of it as control is that it really doesn't want to play aggressively, usually. It's too hard to recover. Instead, it wants to use the tutors to grab the right answer at the right time, combined with a couple answers in the opener and naturally drawn (happens reasonably often), generate a lot of card advantage, and either get into a situation where your opponent can't stop you going off or wait for your opponent to make a mistake. I win a lot of games by acquiring card advantage, waiting for my opponent to tap out for something, countering it, then going off. You don't want to play proactively. You want to play reactively. And you don't always have to tutor for something.
On the subject of Wall of Omens, I like the idea, but don't think it's right for the current meta. I think control decks have to pick an engine (Gifts, Thirst, Bob, Loam, a hybrid, whatever) and build the deck to capitalize on it effectively, so that you can really outdraw other decks. Wall of Omens just doesn't fit in.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Go to my blog, Musings of the False God, for in-depth guides playing the game, from the building blocks of deck design to deceiving your opponent through clever game play!
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Waiting till turn 4 to get answers is not something a control deck does. Running ten answers is also something that they don't do. They usually run 18+.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
Take my own list:
In it, there are 8 pieces of countermagic, 4 Mass Removal Spells, and 5 Tutors for those cards, discounting Gifts itself. But where a more basic control deck relies on getting the answers and using them to buy time until it can outdraw the opponent and slam giant threats, these decks use tutors to add inherent versatility, by allowing you to always have the right answer at the right time. At the same time, those tutors can later be used offensively, to set up a devastating, nigh-unstoppable combo finish.
Now, look at the number of finishers the decks play. Generally, that's 1-3. The Gifts Storm decks aren't planning on going all-in on a combo. They want to grind out the game, then use the Gifts/Past in Flames card advantage engine, in many ways one of the most powerful draw engines in modern if not the most powerful, to generate a massive game swing, often winning on the spot. The Storm kill is in many ways just incidental, the most effective win con available with that engine. But if you were to take my gifts list and try to pilot it as an all-in storm combo deck, you should be ready to lose. A lot. The entire plan of the deck is to grind the opponent out with a strong card advantage engine and dedicated answers, then finish with an immense Past in Flames. That sounds like a control deck to me, of a kind. It's just replaced creature finishers with spell finishers.
True, it's not a pure control deck. It's a hybrid, a control-combo deck, one fully capable of grinding the game out and of killing the opponent on turn 4. You don't do it justice by not seeing it as such.
I don't mean to insult you: I just want to point out that a lot of decks are to complex to be labelled as "just combo" or "just control" or "just aggro". Hybridization is becoming the norm, and we have to go with it.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
The thing is. How do you plan on "dragging out the game" when you have to tutor for most of your answers? I guess I don't consider "controllish" to be "control". But I do agree it is more "controllish" than others
Another problem I have with saying that its control in this meta, it that it has never really put up serious numbers. Even when I see Gifts lists in places as lowly as Daily Events they are usually similar to the semi-successful GP Lincoln list: the all-in version of Gifts storm. I've never seen the "controllish" version of storm do well in high level events. Now, that might be due to the fact that its new.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
Thank you for mentoring us on an archetype you admittedly never play...
Wall of Omens doesn't have flying. It only blocks a third of the creatures outside the jund matchup. I run 4 in a Solar Flare list I made and Jund is the only matchup that it doesn't just cycle for 2 mana. Though I suppose speed-bumping Tarmogoyf counts for something.
http://www.twitch.tv/magicprotour/b/309885372
That's the Top 8 for Grand Prix Baltimore. There was a ton of UB Control decks on Day 2. The Top 8 alone had 3.
Was it a boring, ridiculously slow tournament? Hell no. The announcers themselves kept talking about how epic the matches were. There's a couple UB Control mirror matches that were actually the most entertaining according to the people commentating. I was obviously glued to my seat, but when you got independent observers telling you how surprised they were that watching a control mirror was so great, you know it's true. One of them even said it was the most exciting Grand Prix they've ever seen!
Maybe it's a pain to play against crummy/inexperienced players who can't possibly play fast enough to finish 3 games in 50 minutes, but I hope WotC takes this as a sign that a stronger Control presence is a good thing for the game. This particular UB Control deck that's floating is really just capitalizing off the out-of-control tempo deck which always rules Standard in Control's absence. It'd be nice to have Control decks present from day 1, and not only after Tempo swallows the metageme.
There was a time in which I loved playing control. Fact or fiction was my favorite card.
Well, the deck is basically built like a vintage control deck, and if you've every played vintage control before, you know what I mean when I say it's stupidly complicated. The deck has a tendency to create vast decision trees, which can be oppressive to prospective players, I think. Powerful tutor-based decks naturally create situations with a lot of decisions that have to be made, and provide lots of opportunities to mess up. And it is quite new.
Basically, the reason I think of it as control is that it really doesn't want to play aggressively, usually. It's too hard to recover. Instead, it wants to use the tutors to grab the right answer at the right time, combined with a couple answers in the opener and naturally drawn (happens reasonably often), generate a lot of card advantage, and either get into a situation where your opponent can't stop you going off or wait for your opponent to make a mistake. I win a lot of games by acquiring card advantage, waiting for my opponent to tap out for something, countering it, then going off. You don't want to play proactively. You want to play reactively. And you don't always have to tutor for something.
On the subject of Wall of Omens, I like the idea, but don't think it's right for the current meta. I think control decks have to pick an engine (Gifts, Thirst, Bob, Loam, a hybrid, whatever) and build the deck to capitalize on it effectively, so that you can really outdraw other decks. Wall of Omens just doesn't fit in.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.