What needs to be realized is that control does not need to be permission to be control, it does not need counterspells to be control; hell, it does not even need to be blue to be control.
Yeah but LSV´s list is not control, its combo (unburial + finisher or emrakul) with some removal. Has only 5 counterspells and 4 of them aren´t hard counters. In fact, has less counters that any other "control" deck and less removal than other decks (4 path to exile and 2 mass removal).
..and has been stated numerous times in the debate about control, a control deck does not need to run counters/counterspells to be controling. I believe you are confusing permission (a type of control deck) as control.
..and has been stated numerous times in the debate about control, a control deck does not need to run counters/counterspells to be controling. I believe you are confusing permission (a type of control deck) as control.
I agree. And this is the reason why in a room of 10 people, we're never going to get all of them to agree on what "control" is.
However, to be fair to everybody in this horse race, there is a very fine line between when a deck stops being control and starts being either aggro or combo.
I do not claim to know where that line is. I may never know where that line is because I have seen too many "control" decks play way too much like aggro or combo.
Explain em why LSV´s list is control then. If he doesn´t play counters, play only path to exile as a single removal and 2 mass removals...how is he controlling the opponent?
He controls by reanimating Iona/elesh or casting a hyper giant creature.
It plays for the late game, you stall until you can cast your bomb and take over the game. Just because it might have a combo in it (Gifts for Rites + Dude) doesn't make it a combo deck. And lets not forget that he has 4 Gifts Ungiven so he can just tutor for counters/removal.
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Explain em why LSV´s list is control then. If he doesn´t play counters, play only path to exile as a single removal and 2 mass removals...how is he controlling the opponent?
He controls by reanimating Iona/elesh or casting a hyper giant creature.
I haven't seen the list so I can't comment on it. But I know I have a control/combo deck with 4 DoJ and 4 Oblivion Ring. That is the extend of my "control."
Some people will say that's control. Others will say it's not. Like I said, there is a fine line between control and not control in people's minds.
My win-con in that deck is first locking with Curse Of Exhaustion and Knowledge Pool and then, if they still have creatures out, board wipe or Gideon. Most people just concede after the hard lock unless their board presence is substantial. But with the amount of "control" I have, that usually doesn't happen.
So, control or not? If you said straight combo, I couldn't really argue too much. But if you said control or control/combo, I could agree with that as well.
Control, in and of itself CAN'T win games. You still have to kill somebody with some form of damage whether it be a big fatty, burn, storm or life loss. Yes, you could technically run them out of cards, which would be a true control deck, but how many of those decks have we seen in the history of this game that have been tier 1.
In fact, I don't remember the last time a mill deck was tier 1, if ever.
Again, it all comes down to what YOUR definition of control is. And trust me, you are never going to get the magic community as a whole to agree on what that definition is.
It plays a lot like Green Cloudpost: Ramping up mana, disrupting the opponent (@Tron with Remand, Condescent, ***, DoJ, PTE) and drop a fattie. That's not exactly very controlish.
Furthermore it goes for the midgame instead: Drop a Talisman/Signet asap and cast Gifts on turn 3 if possible for a turn 4 Elesh Norn. That's pretty much Reanimator as a maindeck plan
I get what you're saying and I'm not even disagreeing with you. The problem is, late game control (counter, counter, counter, removal, removal, removal) doesn't exist anymore, at least not as a tier 1 deck.
I made a 15 removal, 8 counter, 3 board wipe deck recently with Sorin's Vengeance as my win-con. It was a true long game control deck in every sense.
It went a so-so 2-2.
You can't play the long game anymore. There are too many weapons on the other side to drag games into turns 14, 15 and beyond. Control has to be quicker. That means our "definition" of control has to ease up somewhat based on where WotC has taken the game.
Again, I am not going to try to define what a control deck is and isn't. But if you're going simply by "it's not long game" I don't think that's being fair.
In Vintage, I can put together a deck with 12 counterspells and still win by turn 3 or sooner.
Does that make it NOT a control deck?
It's not how quickly or slowly you win. It's what path you take to get to that victory.
And IMO, if you're keeping your opponent from doing what HE wants to do, you're playing some form of control. How much? Again, that's hair splitting and I'm not going to get into that debate because it's one I can't win.
Nobody is going to agree on what control is...not anymore.
Timely reinforcements is the very definition of control (even if it comes out of the sideboard). Wrath of god = control. Remand = control (even if it's good too in combo, it's a tempo card). Hell, UrzaTron is control (or ramp, but he doesn't have ramp spells).
Control often can include a combo between his cards, happens frequently. The gifts package searches for that combo.
Problem is some people think control consists in:
Turn 1: Spell snare
Turn 2: mana leak/counterspell
Turn 3: Another counter, or a draw spell if you didn't play anything worth countering
Turn 4: cryptic command
Turn 5: Snapcaster into the draw spell
Turn 6: Snapcaster into cryptic command
Turn 6+: Cast my finisher if I managed to not lose until now.
I don't really want to argue with you guys, but tron as it is not is not really control. It is true that you don't have to run counterspells, or even blue to be control. With control you must look at two different things: does it win by burying it's opponent in card draw, and when does it win. Thirst for knowledge in LSV's list does not often draw cards, and gifts ungiven is used more a combo search kinda like some storm decks use it. Then with the new tron your not trying to survive until the late game. Sure it happens from time to time, but some legacy games go to time every once in a while.(I have seen a zoo mirror in legacy end in a draw. magic is funny like that sometimes) With the new tron you are really racing and control decks just don't race....
The deck that is being called aggro loam is actually a pretty sweet control deck though. I like it a lot despite how weak it is to graveyard hate. You get so much card advantage from loam with retrace it is silly. It needs to find a different way to win though.
But just slapping the term "Control" on Tron just does not do it justice in any way.
If there is one thing we might agree on is that Control usually interacts with the opponent, right?
Like I counter your stuff, I react to your plays, I remove your creatures, I wipe your board, I clear your graveyard, I empty your hand ... those are the controlish elements we face. Of course, you find elements of these in quite every deck except maybe Storm that purely concentrates on going off itself or Affinity that tries to push through damage as early as possible. Those are the most extreme examples in the current metagame of non-interactive decks.
Tron does actually not need to interact with the opponent at all and somewhat forces the opponent to interact with it on the other hand. Undisturbed, Tron can go off as early as Turn 4 with a resurrected Iona, denying you reactions or Elesh Norn that forces you to react if you are not Storm.
Of course, Tron also needs interaction to stall out a bit more as Turn 4 Unburial Rites is not very reliably available. But does it make the deck controlish? It's just as much Control as Martyr.proc (they pack 4 PtE, ***, O-Rings, Ghostly Prison and a playset of Ghost Quarters to disrupt you and often play for the lategame with their Emeria/Mistveil Plains engine up and running) or maybe even Jund (Terminate, Maelstrom Pulse, Liliana, Bolt) or Zoo (PtE, Bolt, Tribal Flames and some counters here and there).
The only difference in gameplan is that Tron tries to stall to power out a biggie while "aggro" decks stall you out until they kill you with their little guys. That's not too much difference in Strategy at all - both aim at your life total and while the former is more inevitable in the long-run, the other puts a clock on you. But concerning interactivity or reactiveness, both decks kinda play similar while with the one deck you tap creatures while with the other you tap just lands.
I played Scepter/Chant and Psychatog in the '05 extended meta and those were control decks. Scepter would drop an early Scepter with Chant, denying you your turns, countering everything that poses a threat in between yours and drop the obvious Exalted Angel when the time is right and protect it with their running Engine. With Psychatog you know that when this deck countered everything that moved until they did a big Upheaval to play tog and swing for the win. They play very differently than any deck we have now. Heck, I tried MWC in Modern and this deck is more similar to the control we know than Tron. Tron really aims for the midgame and its creatures do not need protection from controlish elements at all:
- When you power out an Emrakul, it's game anyway.
- Iona protects herself.
- Elesh Norn does a reset and against the decks she's intended to wreck, they often don't have solutions.
- Ulamog destroys problematic permanents and shuffles itself inside your deck if they get rid of him (except if they PtE him).
I think U/W Tron really does not play controlish. The fact that the deck uses Remand over Mana Leak and ... any hard counter it could easily afford like Rewind, Hinder, Dissipate, ... tells a lot about the deck: it does not need to control you by not allowing you playing your spells, it simply needs a little bit more time and it does not care whether you re-cast your spells the following turn.
I'd really say that U/W Tron is a Midrange-Ramp deck with controlish elements that can be found in most decks anyway (heck, Twin plays Remands and still is a Combo deck).
This is very well put. What was left of a control deck left with engineered explosives, crucible of worlds, and academy ruins.
Alright, right off the bat let me say a few things. Yes, Tron is not the same as a "Classic Control" deck that many of you seem to be pining for. No, it does not run a mess of hard counters, and yes it does use elements of Ramp and a somewhat Combo-finish to win most games. But let's take an honest look at this decklist for a second (yes it's LSV's):
Path to Exile, Day of Judgement, Timely Reinforcements. An almost entirely reactive sideboard. Gifts Ungiven for any number of outs against a variety of situations, including the infamous, so-called "non-control" play of Unburial Rites+White Fatty. Many of the elements of this deck are controlling, just because he cut Academy Ruins and E.E. doesn't stop this deck from being a control deck.
Look, this thread is called "The Role of Control in Modern". So shouldn't we be talking about decks like this, ones that are built around a control shell, even if they use alternate (that is, faster) means to close out a game?
Modern is a fast format, and clearly you can't just durdle around forever trying to stop your opponent from doing anything at all while you finally find your X/X flying Sphinx or whatever. Nor is that any fun for either your opponents, or the rest of the tournament waiting for your 5th turn of turns to end.
Tron is capable of disrupting your opponent for the early turns, sweeping away problems or buying time with Timely Reinforcements in the midgame, and then deploys its win condition when the time is right. And ironically, Annihilator 6 happens to be a REALLY good source of card advantage! Gifts Ungiven and Thirst for Knowledge are no slouches either, even when you are Gifting yourself an Elesh Norn. If Card Advantage is harder to come across, but Card Quality is still winning you the games (and still allowing you to play control cards), then what is the real difference? Why is it necessary to draw more cards than your opponent when you can just win with the ones you've already drawn? The point of this thread is to recognize what form control is taking in the current metagame, and discuss how the decks work.
So Tron is our control deck at the moment, like it or not. And Aggro Loam is perhaps another consideration as a pseudo-Control deck, though that obviously will be debatable given its name and all. Both of these decks are a bit outside the box in terms of "classic" archetype evolution, but is the nature of the game. What would be the fun in playing if we didn't blur the lines and evolve?
Alright, right off the bat let me say a few things. Yes, Tron is not the same as a "Classic Control" deck that many of you seem to be pining for. No, it does not run a mess of hard counters, and yes it does use elements of Ramp and a somewhat Combo-finish to win most games. But let's take an honest look at this decklist for a second (yes it's LSV's):
Path to Exile, Day of Judgement, Timely Reinforcements. An almost entirely reactive sideboard. Gifts Ungiven for any number of outs against a variety of situations, including the infamous, so-called "non-control" play of Unburial Rites+White Fatty. Many of the elements of this deck are controlling, just because he cut Academy Ruins and E.E. doesn't stop this deck from being a control deck.
Look, this thread is called "The Role of Control in Modern". So shouldn't we be talking about decks like this, ones that are built around a control shell, even if they use alternate (that is, faster) means to close out a game?
Modern is a fast format, and clearly you can't just durdle around forever trying to stop your opponent from doing anything at all while you finally find your X/X flying Sphinx or whatever. Nor is that any fun for either your opponents, or the rest of the tournament waiting for your 5th turn of turns to end.
Tron is capable of disrupting your opponent for the early turns, sweeping away problems or buying time with Timely Reinforcements in the midgame, and then deploys its win condition when the time is right. And ironically, Annihilator 6 happens to be a REALLY good source of card advantage! Gifts Ungiven and Thirst for Knowledge are no slouches either, even when you are Gifting yourself an Elesh Norn. If Card Advantage is harder to come across, but Card Quality is still winning you the games (and still allowing you to play control cards), then what is the real difference? Why is it necessary to draw more cards than your opponent when you can just win with the ones you've already drawn? The point of this thread is to recognize what form control is taking in the current metagame, and discuss how the decks work.
So Tron is our control deck at the moment, like it or not. And Aggro Loam is perhaps another consideration as a pseudo-Control deck, though that obviously will be debatable given its name and all. Both of these decks are a bit outside the box in terms of "classic" archetype evolution, but is the nature of the game. What would be the fun in playing if we didn't blur the lines and evolve?
I think this is very well said and I can go along with it.
And this is coming from a guy used to FoW and Mana Drain wars.
I'm glad he got Top 4 with that Urzatron deck, but comparing that with the original list he did his video series on, he really dumped a lot of the actual control shell to make the deck more explosive and combo based.
The deck doesn't even really look anymore like the point is to stall and control the board until you can drop a bomb; it seems to be to ramp as fast as possible to get the Gifts combo online, with the Tron mana as backup. I suppose it was pretty hard for him to justify NOT running the Gifts/Unburial Rites combo as the primary win in a deck that ran Gifts.
I was willing to call it a control deck before, but at this point, you could just as well start arguing that Splinter Twin is a control deck. This Twin list runs as many counterspells and removal as Vargas's list:
It was close before, but adding the Gifts combo pushed him over into combo land. Interesting to note that the ratio of card draw (8/8), removal (7/7) and counters (5/5) are identical. I think it shows his train of thought in building the deck. Urzatron is definitely a playable control deck, but it's disheartening to see the only professional win so far be with a combo version.
Counterspells:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
These are Vintage-style control decks. They are control. And yet they play 9-10 counterspells. That's because in Vintage, as with really any format nowadays, spending 15 turns letting them draw into outs is a losing proposition. You can interact with them, sure. You can take control of the game, sure. But once you have it, you can't sit around and wait. Not now. You have to win. And Fast. You don't have to play a bajillion counterspells and 2 Serra Angels to be control. Speaking of Which:
Brian Weissman's The Deck, 1996:
Counterspells:
2 Counterspell
4 Mana Drain
2 Red Elemental Blast
Brian Weissman's The Deck, the original control deck, played 8 counterspells. Samuel Karls' Mono-U faeries deck from the top 8 of the gp played 15, nearly twice as many.
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I don't understand why this is relevant. Also looking at vintage list does really nothing for you because the nature of that format. most decks have to run the power 9 and several other cards to even matter. Vintage is not real magic by any stretch of the imagination. You only have 1-3 ways to win and 30 ways to look for it or to speed it up.
As for the deck running so few counterspells it have tons of card draw and regrowth type effects. Also times where much different as you may have noticed by the main deck disenchants. For the most part you could ignore your aggro opponents at worst your getting beat down by 1 mana 1/1s and 2 mana 2/2s. It used the combination of discard, counters, and card draw(sometimes hate cards) to deal with the combo decks which if I recall were extremely dominant at that time.
Later versions of "the deck" were 5 color decks that used lock down permanents like stasis and moat. These generally used less counterspells, but more card draw. Also it should be noted that magic was a lot slower back then since combo for the most part revolved around drawing your whole deck which was a lot harder when necrogen was restricted. Even the sligh decks that formed close to this time rarely won before turn 5-6.
I think for modern control is just too fair. Your spells are more expensive and less universal that most that your opponent can play. The bad creatures in newer sets are leaps and bounds better than old tournament staples and "control" spells have stayed the same or are much worse. This is why blue decks have turned into aggressive tempo decks, or generally run like slow combo decks like splinter twin. Really tron is now a splinter twin deck that is less consistent, slower, more clunky, but harder to stop given ample time. Splinter twin might as well just be the best "control" deck as some people see it. I haven't tried teachings, but it seems really terrible and lacking. I might give it a try or I might just stick to playing combo whether it be tron, twin, or storm.
It's not. They all just keep interjecting this nonsense about people only calling a control deck with 15 counters a true control deck. Not a single person has suggested anything like that. But people have their own preconceptions, one of those being that people who have problems with control in contemporary MTG are fossilized "draw-go" players who want to run 20 counterspells and 4 Whispers of the Muse. Nobody is actually that radical; it's just all in people's imaginations.
Hell, even 10 counterspells is way to much, in my opinion.
It's not. They all just keep interjecting this nonsense about people only calling a control deck with 15 counters a true control deck. Not a single person has suggested anything like that. But people have their own preconceptions, one of those being that people who have problems with control in contemporary MTG are fossilized "draw-go" players who want to run 20 counterspells and 4 Whispers of the Muse. Nobody is actually that radical; it's just all in people's imaginations.
Hell, even 10 counterspells is way to much, in my opinion.
Rereading though these pages I though that argument died long ago????
10 counterspells should be considered a maximum even if we did have 2 counterspells that were worthy of 4 ofs and a nice 2 of. Someone earlier used a faerie deck as an example, but spellstutter spite isn't really a counterspell and cryptic command is too expensive to be a counterspell in modern. Sure it is good, but most times I find myself using it a fog spell or a bounce spell. Often times spellstutter sprite is a 2mana 1/1 with flying that I play at the end of my opponents turn to have mistbind food. Mid to late game mana leak is just a mana denial spell to slow my opponents down. Remand is just a cheaper conditional repeal that can actually stop things on the stack.
A control deck can be proactive. The basis of a control deck is to CONTROL the board state of their opponent. If you are not running counters, a control deck needs spot removal and sweepers which are proactive spells. Just because a deck runs multiple aspects in one deck it can still be a control deck.
You say this, yet you contradict yourself when you say Tron is reactive but not a Control deck. You also point out that true Combo decks usually win when they pull off their combo, on the spot. You assume that all Tron players are striving for a turn 4 Unburial Rites, which sounds to me like you haven't actually played the deck. Unburial Rites is an answer to Aggro and/or decks that have trouble dealing with Iona, but it's not the primary win condition, and trying to pull it off on Turn 4 is not going to guarantee you the win by any stretch.
To support some of your argument, I'll agree that Tron is definitely a weird mix of Control/Combo. I suppose Reanimator in Legacy is considered combo, and that's a comparable deck. But take a look at Standard's U/W Control deck before Scars Block landed. There are just as many similarities to that deck as well.
Tron is interactive and reactive. I would agree that it doesn't want to play control into the late game, except there are very few other decks in Modern that take that role anyway, so Tron is there to fill those shoes. It certainly is designed to be the control deck in the midgame, when everyone else is either dropping BBE's or Comboing off, so yes it is a control deck sometimes. Half the time even. And it's "Combo Finish" is only ever truly game-ending when they can hardcast Emrakul, though it's obviously difficult to overcome even an Elesh Norn.
So call it what you will, but I figured this would be a good place to discuss a really interesting deck that obviously contains elements of control. Apparently most of you would rather just continue arguing that control doesn't exist, rather than actually discuss why this deck is awesome.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
We've already discussed why Tron is similar to a Ramp deck and why it is different. If you are referring to the current Wolf Run Ramp decks you'll note that they run close to 20 creatures. In addition, they don't have access to the Tron lands, so they must spend more effort to actually Ramp, while Tron is more focused on "fixing". The do run sweepers and spot removal, but don't have access to the blue draw spells or counters. Yes I get the similarities, but the decks play out differently.
Look, I'm not trying to insult anyone, or insist that you don't know what you're talking about Isho. I'm just tired of arguing semantics on this thread. Everyone seems hellbent on the theory that Control is Dead, but no one seems willing to accept it when someone presents a reasonable option for a control deck, specifics be damned. Tron is certainly not a typical control build, but you have to admit that it plays out like control often enough, and as the opposing side I can tell you that it feels just like I'm playing against U/W Control. It doesn't matter if you land a huge Legendary Pain in the Ass or a Gideon Jura if the end result is the same. I can't deal with it, I'm way to far behind, and you've spend most of your midgame building up a manabase and stopping my relevant spells from resolving on time. By the time you get your threat down, I'm too far behind in mana and momentum to respond profitably, and you still have a decent sized hand to stop me, thanks to card advantage.
Tron tries to stop its opponent's early plays long enough to lock up the late game. Call it a "soft lock", or a combo finish, or whatever. (Elesh and Iona both represent a soft lock). It still resembles a control deck enough to justify talking about it on this thread.
If I told you all that Faeries was control, it would get flamed down. Jund? Nah that's midrangey-controllish-aggro, but not control. The New Aggro Loam? Definitely can't be control. Caw-Blade? Nope, Aggro-Tempo. The point is, there isn't a deck that is strictly Control anymore according to mtgsalvation jong standards. So what are we left to talk about? Decks that contain control elements, or that resemble control in other formats. Clearly the definition of "control" is a problem, and I have no interest in continuing to beat the proverbial dead horse. But it's very narrow-minded to exclude every deck that blurs the lines or contains elements of the coveted "Classic Control".
Let's put this another way, using some Strategic MTG Fundamentals. Take a look at some of the better decks in the format right now, something like this as an example (don't bother pointing out why I'm wrong here, this is just an exercise):
Melira Pod
Jund
Boros
Affinity
Caw-Blade
Delver Decks
Faeries
Martyr-Proc
Bant
Storm
Aggro-Loam
U/W Tron
Now play Tron against all those decks, and tell me in how many of those matchups is Tron going to be the beatdown? How many games will it need to take the controlling role, at least until it can land one of its signature haymakers? Clearly, the Tron player is rarely going to be the Aggressive deck, especially after sideboarding happens. Usually, you will be sitting back waiting to respond to whatever your opponent does until you can take over the game with a win condition. Playing the role of Control. Not always, no, but most of the games yes.
Regardless of what you want to call the deck style, when it comes down to it's role in the metagame, my argument is that Tron is filling the shoes of Control, in the absence of the more traditional control decks. And yes, if Wolf Run was at the top of the Control Food Chain in standard I would maybe say similar things about that deck too. But Standard sill has 4CC Control, U/B Control, and yes even Solar Flare and the various Reanimator Control lists.
In Modern, what deck is filling the Control position in the Rock-Paper-Scissors Trifecta if it isn't U/W Tron?
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
We've already discussed why Tron is similar to a Ramp deck and why it is different. If you are referring to the current Wolf Run Ramp decks you'll note that they run close to 20 creatures. In addition, they don't have access to the Tron lands, so they must spend more effort to actually Ramp, while Tron is more focused on "fixing". The do run sweepers and spot removal, but don't have access to the blue draw spells or counters. Yes I get the similarities, but the decks play out differently.
Look, I'm not trying to insult anyone, or insist that you don't know what you're talking about Isho. I'm just tired of arguing semantics on this thread. Everyone seems hellbent on the theory that Control is Dead, but no one seems willing to accept it when someone presents a reasonable option for a control deck, specifics be damned. Tron is certainly not a typical control build, but you have to admit that it plays out like control often enough, and as the opposing side I can tell you that it feels just like I'm playing against U/W Control. It doesn't matter if you land a huge Legendary Pain in the Ass or a Gideon Jura if the end result is the same. I can't deal with it, I'm way to far behind, and you've spend most of your midgame building up a manabase and stopping my relevant spells from resolving on time. By the time you get your threat down, I'm too far behind in mana and momentum to respond profitably, and you still have a decent sized hand to stop me, thanks to card advantage.
Tron tries to stop its opponent's early plays long enough to lock up the late game. Call it a "soft lock", or a combo finish, or whatever. (Elesh and Iona both represent a soft lock). It still resembles a control deck enough to justify talking about it on this thread.
If I told you all that Faeries was control, it would get flamed down. Jund? Nah that's midrangey-controllish-aggro, but not control. The New Aggro Loam? Definitely can't be control. Caw-Blade? Nope, Aggro-Tempo. The point is, there isn't a deck that is strictly Control anymore according to mtgsalvation jong standards. So what are we left to talk about? Decks that contain control elements, or that resemble control in other formats. Clearly the definition of "control" is a problem, and I have no interest in continuing to beat the proverbial dead horse. But it's very narrow-minded to exclude every deck that blurs the lines or contains elements of the coveted "Classic Control".
Let's put this another way, using some Strategic MTG Fundamentals. Take a look at some of the better decks in the format right now, something like this as an example (don't bother pointing out why I'm wrong here, this is just an exercise):
Melira Pod
Jund
Boros
Affinity
Caw-Blade
Delver Decks
Faeries
Martyr-Proc
Bant
Storm
Aggro-Loam
U/W Tron
Now play Tron against all those decks, and tell me in how many of those matchups is Tron going to be the beatdown? How many games will it need to take the controlling role, at least until it can land one of its signature haymakers? Clearly, the Tron player is rarely going to be the Aggressive deck, especially after sideboarding happens. Usually, you will be sitting back waiting to respond to whatever your opponent does until you can take over the game with a win condition. Playing the role of Control. Not always, no, but most of the games yes.
Regardless of what you want to call the deck style, when it comes down to it's role in the metagame, my argument is that Tron is filling the shoes of Control, in the absence of the more traditional control decks. And yes, if Wolf Run was at the top of the Control Food Chain in standard I would maybe say similar things about that deck too. But Standard sill has 4CC Control, U/B Control, and yes even Solar Flare and the various Reanimator Control lists.
In Modern, what deck is filling the Control position in the Rock-Paper-Scissors Trifecta if it isn't U/W Tron?
Very well said. Thank you.
The crux of the problem is that we have a society of magic players (obviously many old ones) who are hanging onto an archetype that no longer exists as it was back in the day, and because of THAT...claim that the archetype itself is dead and buried.
Counter that, counter that, counter that, ho-hum drop my mox, lotus, Sphinx Of Magosi and beat your face in.
At least Oath of Druids decks offer some challenge in assembling the pieces.
Classic control can get boring to play and is even more boring to play against as you sit there and just watch everything you do get countered.
This is why WotC said "ENOUGH!" and nerfed the hell out of spells, specifically counter magic.
So now you have to do a little more thinking than just "ho-hum, counter."
Control exists and I agree with HLZ's assessment. There are decks that, while not classic control decks, play similar enough to them. Tron is a great example as it can be frustrating as hell to play against when everything you try to do gets shot down...maybe not in the traditional "control" sort of way.
We have 2 choices.
1. We can accept that the concept of what "control" is has changed and incorporate "borderline" decks into the control sphere of influence.
OR...
2. We can just call this game "Rock and Paper" because Scissors no longer has a home or a definition relevant to 2012 and beyond.
1. Vintage is perhaps the most real format of all. It's by a MILE the most skill-testing format in the entire game, and anyone who has actually played it would back me up. There's a reason so many pros are addicted to it.
2. LSV's Tron deck plays 15 reactive control cards in the MD. That's not much less than in The Deck (19). A control deck takes control of the game until it can win on the back of superior threats. Does it matter if that threat is a Serra Angel on turn 20 or a Millstone or a Consecrated Sphinx on turn 6 or an Eldrazi on turn 5 or a Tendrils of Agony on turn 3. The only thing you're doing there is moving the deck on the sliding scales of speed and finisher size. They are designed to neutralize the opponent's threats, then win. I fail to see how that isn't control.
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A control deck can be proactive. The basis of a control deck is to CONTROL the board state of their opponent. If you are not running counters, a control deck needs spot removal and sweepers which are proactive spells. Just because a deck runs multiple aspects in one deck it can still be a control deck.
Last time I checked sweepers were reactive....... I mean your reacting to the board state for defensive purposes. It is essentially offense= proactive defense= reactive.
even discard can be reactive in this sense unless your objective is to remove their hand. The most proactive things that control can do is to drop lockdown permanents like moat, but these still serve defensive purposes most of the time.
The very nature of control means that it never intends to be proactive. The whole purpose is to win the game then drop something to formally finish the game. This can be achieved through 1 for 1s like removal, counterspells or discard, or can be achieved through mass removal, or lockdown permanents that give you virtual card advantage.(like moat making your opponents creatures worthless)
A deck like teachings is a true control deck which wins with proactive cards and card advantage. A deck like faeries which I am playing right now wins by attacking and gaining a tempo advantage with cards like remand and mistbind clique. It comes down to a decks mantra. Control decks will never focus on playing dudes and attacking. This will happen from time to time depending on the situation, but this is not what they are built for.
Why twin is not a control deck: generally twin doesn't have to react much with opponents other than to protect itself from things that would stop its combo which is its plan. It plans to combine 2 cards as fast as possible in order to win. If it fails to draw the combo it will often have to take the control roll because other decks have more consistent means to be aggressive, but you don't pick up a twin deck thinking I am going to combo off after my opponent has been grinned out.
Why (lsv)tron isn't a control deck:
First and foremost your trying to cast the gifts unburial combo as early as possible unless you know that it can be answered. Then you have the mana ramp into an eldrazi as a back up plan. Kinda like how thopter depths decks had a combo win condition in depths but if they didn't draw it or it was disrupted they had a plan B by taking control of games in matchups where they could and casting a slower win condition.(thopters)
Whenever you pick up a deck your need to ask yourself what is my plan A. If it is anything but to grind out your opponent then your not playing a control deck. After you know what your playing you can assume the control roll for example your playing jund against affinity. They are more aggressive than you are so your forced into plan B which is to bring in mass removal or 2 for 1 cards like ancient grudge that allow you to be better at the control roll. This is why jund is not the best deck against fast aggro decks because it has to alter its identity in order to save face. Luckly for jund ancient grudge helps a lot, which is why it s pretty close with affinity games 2 and 3. Boros is often times a beating for jund because most don't run mass removal which makes it nearly impossible to play the control roll because you don't have the card advantage you need to grind games out and it becomes completely dependent on draws.
The best control deck I have seen so far is the deck that is called aggro loam. Really in all respects it is a control deck that uses cheap guys for card draw or to end games once it has grinded its opponents out. It doesn't have much traditional card draw, but loam + retrace is a silly source of card advantage and running both a reomval and discard spell with retrace allows it to adapt to both combo/control, and aggro matches. This is something that a deck like teachings lacks.
I agree that Tron isn't a control deck, mainly because it doesn't ever really seek to control the game. It merely wants to delay until it can combo you, hence why it plays Remands over Mana Leaks. It rarely wants to grind a game out, and doesn't really look to win via incrimental advantages, like a true control deck does. That being said, I think it's probably the closest thing to control that's viable in the format, but a true control deck, it is not.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Glad to see some non-standard decks finally start to show up. It looks like people are actually building decks for the format now.
..and has been stated numerous times in the debate about control, a control deck does not need to run counters/counterspells to be controling. I believe you are confusing permission (a type of control deck) as control.
I agree. And this is the reason why in a room of 10 people, we're never going to get all of them to agree on what "control" is.
However, to be fair to everybody in this horse race, there is a very fine line between when a deck stops being control and starts being either aggro or combo.
I do not claim to know where that line is. I may never know where that line is because I have seen too many "control" decks play way too much like aggro or combo.
It plays for the late game, you stall until you can cast your bomb and take over the game. Just because it might have a combo in it (Gifts for Rites + Dude) doesn't make it a combo deck. And lets not forget that he has 4 Gifts Ungiven so he can just tutor for counters/removal.
I haven't seen the list so I can't comment on it. But I know I have a control/combo deck with 4 DoJ and 4 Oblivion Ring. That is the extend of my "control."
Some people will say that's control. Others will say it's not. Like I said, there is a fine line between control and not control in people's minds.
My win-con in that deck is first locking with Curse Of Exhaustion and Knowledge Pool and then, if they still have creatures out, board wipe or Gideon. Most people just concede after the hard lock unless their board presence is substantial. But with the amount of "control" I have, that usually doesn't happen.
So, control or not? If you said straight combo, I couldn't really argue too much. But if you said control or control/combo, I could agree with that as well.
Control, in and of itself CAN'T win games. You still have to kill somebody with some form of damage whether it be a big fatty, burn, storm or life loss. Yes, you could technically run them out of cards, which would be a true control deck, but how many of those decks have we seen in the history of this game that have been tier 1.
In fact, I don't remember the last time a mill deck was tier 1, if ever.
Again, it all comes down to what YOUR definition of control is. And trust me, you are never going to get the magic community as a whole to agree on what that definition is.
Which is why I don't try to define it.
I get what you're saying and I'm not even disagreeing with you. The problem is, late game control (counter, counter, counter, removal, removal, removal) doesn't exist anymore, at least not as a tier 1 deck.
I made a 15 removal, 8 counter, 3 board wipe deck recently with Sorin's Vengeance as my win-con. It was a true long game control deck in every sense.
It went a so-so 2-2.
You can't play the long game anymore. There are too many weapons on the other side to drag games into turns 14, 15 and beyond. Control has to be quicker. That means our "definition" of control has to ease up somewhat based on where WotC has taken the game.
Again, I am not going to try to define what a control deck is and isn't. But if you're going simply by "it's not long game" I don't think that's being fair.
In Vintage, I can put together a deck with 12 counterspells and still win by turn 3 or sooner.
Does that make it NOT a control deck?
It's not how quickly or slowly you win. It's what path you take to get to that victory.
And IMO, if you're keeping your opponent from doing what HE wants to do, you're playing some form of control. How much? Again, that's hair splitting and I'm not going to get into that debate because it's one I can't win.
Nobody is going to agree on what control is...not anymore.
Control often can include a combo between his cards, happens frequently. The gifts package searches for that combo.
Problem is some people think control consists in:
Turn 1: Spell snare
Turn 2: mana leak/counterspell
Turn 3: Another counter, or a draw spell if you didn't play anything worth countering
Turn 4: cryptic command
Turn 5: Snapcaster into the draw spell
Turn 6: Snapcaster into cryptic command
Turn 6+: Cast my finisher if I managed to not lose until now.
The deck that is being called aggro loam is actually a pretty sweet control deck though. I like it a lot despite how weak it is to graveyard hate. You get so much card advantage from loam with retrace it is silly. It needs to find a different way to win though.
This is very well put. What was left of a control deck left with engineered explosives, crucible of worlds, and academy ruins.
Alright, right off the bat let me say a few things. Yes, Tron is not the same as a "Classic Control" deck that many of you seem to be pining for. No, it does not run a mess of hard counters, and yes it does use elements of Ramp and a somewhat Combo-finish to win most games. But let's take an honest look at this decklist for a second (yes it's LSV's):
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
3 Seachrome Coast
1 Tolaria West
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Azorius Signet
1 Condescend
1 Day of Judgment
3 Expedition Map
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
1 Repeal
1 Talisman of Progress
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Unburial Rites
1 Wrath of God
31 other spells
2 Celestial Purge
1 Disenchant
2 Dispel
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Negate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Rule of Law
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Path to Exile, Day of Judgement, Timely Reinforcements. An almost entirely reactive sideboard. Gifts Ungiven for any number of outs against a variety of situations, including the infamous, so-called "non-control" play of Unburial Rites+White Fatty. Many of the elements of this deck are controlling, just because he cut Academy Ruins and E.E. doesn't stop this deck from being a control deck.
Look, this thread is called "The Role of Control in Modern". So shouldn't we be talking about decks like this, ones that are built around a control shell, even if they use alternate (that is, faster) means to close out a game?
Modern is a fast format, and clearly you can't just durdle around forever trying to stop your opponent from doing anything at all while you finally find your X/X flying Sphinx or whatever. Nor is that any fun for either your opponents, or the rest of the tournament waiting for your 5th turn of turns to end.
Tron is capable of disrupting your opponent for the early turns, sweeping away problems or buying time with Timely Reinforcements in the midgame, and then deploys its win condition when the time is right. And ironically, Annihilator 6 happens to be a REALLY good source of card advantage! Gifts Ungiven and Thirst for Knowledge are no slouches either, even when you are Gifting yourself an Elesh Norn. If Card Advantage is harder to come across, but Card Quality is still winning you the games (and still allowing you to play control cards), then what is the real difference? Why is it necessary to draw more cards than your opponent when you can just win with the ones you've already drawn? The point of this thread is to recognize what form control is taking in the current metagame, and discuss how the decks work.
So Tron is our control deck at the moment, like it or not. And Aggro Loam is perhaps another consideration as a pseudo-Control deck, though that obviously will be debatable given its name and all. Both of these decks are a bit outside the box in terms of "classic" archetype evolution, but is the nature of the game. What would be the fun in playing if we didn't blur the lines and evolve?
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I think this is very well said and I can go along with it.
And this is coming from a guy used to FoW and Mana Drain wars.
The deck doesn't even really look anymore like the point is to stall and control the board until you can drop a bomb; it seems to be to ramp as fast as possible to get the Gifts combo online, with the Tron mana as backup. I suppose it was pretty hard for him to justify NOT running the Gifts/Unburial Rites combo as the primary win in a deck that ran Gifts.
I was willing to call it a control deck before, but at this point, you could just as well start arguing that Splinter Twin is a control deck. This Twin list runs as many counterspells and removal as Vargas's list:
2 Spellskite
2 Pestermite
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Instant [9]
2 Electrolyze
2 Repeal
2 Dispel
3 Spell Snare
Sorcery [13]
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
2 Faithless Looting
3 Slagstorm
4 Splinter Twin
Land [24]
7 Island
5 Mountain
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Breeding Pool
4 Steam Vents
1 Spellskite
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Echoing Truth
1 Spell Snare
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Gigadrowse
1 Wipe Away
2 Dispel
3 Spell Pierce
1 Slagstorm
It was close before, but adding the Gifts combo pushed him over into combo land. Interesting to note that the ratio of card draw (8/8), removal (7/7) and counters (5/5) are identical. I think it shows his train of thought in building the deck. Urzatron is definitely a playable control deck, but it's disheartening to see the only professional win so far be with a combo version.
Meandeck Gifts, October 2006:
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Recoup
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
5 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Wipe Away
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Fire/Ice
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Caltrops
1 Old Man of the Sea
Counterspells:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
Vintage Tezzeret, February 2009
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Voltaic Key
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Duress
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
3 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yixlid Jailer
2 Extirpate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Pyroblast
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
Counterspells:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
These are Vintage-style control decks. They are control. And yet they play 9-10 counterspells. That's because in Vintage, as with really any format nowadays, spending 15 turns letting them draw into outs is a losing proposition. You can interact with them, sure. You can take control of the game, sure. But once you have it, you can't sit around and wait. Not now. You have to win. And Fast. You don't have to play a bajillion counterspells and 2 Serra Angels to be control. Speaking of Which:
Brian Weissman's The Deck, 1996:
4 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Plains
3 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
21 lands
2 Serra Angel
2 creatures
1 Amnesia
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Braingeyser
2 Counterspell
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Disenchant
2 Disrupting Scepter
1 Jayemdae Tome
4 Mana Drain
1 Mirror Universe
2 Moat
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Recall
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Regrowth
1 Sol Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
37 other spells
2 Blood Moon
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Disrupting Scepter
2 Divine Offering
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Fireball
1 Ivory Tower
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Moat
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
Counterspells:
2 Counterspell
4 Mana Drain
2 Red Elemental Blast
Brian Weissman's The Deck, the original control deck, played 8 counterspells. Samuel Karls' Mono-U faeries deck from the top 8 of the gp played 15, nearly twice as many.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
As for the deck running so few counterspells it have tons of card draw and regrowth type effects. Also times where much different as you may have noticed by the main deck disenchants. For the most part you could ignore your aggro opponents at worst your getting beat down by 1 mana 1/1s and 2 mana 2/2s. It used the combination of discard, counters, and card draw(sometimes hate cards) to deal with the combo decks which if I recall were extremely dominant at that time.
Later versions of "the deck" were 5 color decks that used lock down permanents like stasis and moat. These generally used less counterspells, but more card draw. Also it should be noted that magic was a lot slower back then since combo for the most part revolved around drawing your whole deck which was a lot harder when necrogen was restricted. Even the sligh decks that formed close to this time rarely won before turn 5-6.
I think for modern control is just too fair. Your spells are more expensive and less universal that most that your opponent can play. The bad creatures in newer sets are leaps and bounds better than old tournament staples and "control" spells have stayed the same or are much worse. This is why blue decks have turned into aggressive tempo decks, or generally run like slow combo decks like splinter twin. Really tron is now a splinter twin deck that is less consistent, slower, more clunky, but harder to stop given ample time. Splinter twin might as well just be the best "control" deck as some people see it. I haven't tried teachings, but it seems really terrible and lacking. I might give it a try or I might just stick to playing combo whether it be tron, twin, or storm.
It's not. They all just keep interjecting this nonsense about people only calling a control deck with 15 counters a true control deck. Not a single person has suggested anything like that. But people have their own preconceptions, one of those being that people who have problems with control in contemporary MTG are fossilized "draw-go" players who want to run 20 counterspells and 4 Whispers of the Muse. Nobody is actually that radical; it's just all in people's imaginations.
Hell, even 10 counterspells is way to much, in my opinion.
Rereading though these pages I though that argument died long ago????
10 counterspells should be considered a maximum even if we did have 2 counterspells that were worthy of 4 ofs and a nice 2 of. Someone earlier used a faerie deck as an example, but spellstutter spite isn't really a counterspell and cryptic command is too expensive to be a counterspell in modern. Sure it is good, but most times I find myself using it a fog spell or a bounce spell. Often times spellstutter sprite is a 2mana 1/1 with flying that I play at the end of my opponents turn to have mistbind food. Mid to late game mana leak is just a mana denial spell to slow my opponents down. Remand is just a cheaper conditional repeal that can actually stop things on the stack.
You say this, yet you contradict yourself when you say Tron is reactive but not a Control deck. You also point out that true Combo decks usually win when they pull off their combo, on the spot. You assume that all Tron players are striving for a turn 4 Unburial Rites, which sounds to me like you haven't actually played the deck. Unburial Rites is an answer to Aggro and/or decks that have trouble dealing with Iona, but it's not the primary win condition, and trying to pull it off on Turn 4 is not going to guarantee you the win by any stretch.
To support some of your argument, I'll agree that Tron is definitely a weird mix of Control/Combo. I suppose Reanimator in Legacy is considered combo, and that's a comparable deck. But take a look at Standard's U/W Control deck before Scars Block landed. There are just as many similarities to that deck as well.
Tron is interactive and reactive. I would agree that it doesn't want to play control into the late game, except there are very few other decks in Modern that take that role anyway, so Tron is there to fill those shoes. It certainly is designed to be the control deck in the midgame, when everyone else is either dropping BBE's or Comboing off, so yes it is a control deck sometimes. Half the time even. And it's "Combo Finish" is only ever truly game-ending when they can hardcast Emrakul, though it's obviously difficult to overcome even an Elesh Norn.
So call it what you will, but I figured this would be a good place to discuss a really interesting deck that obviously contains elements of control. Apparently most of you would rather just continue arguing that control doesn't exist, rather than actually discuss why this deck is awesome.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Look, I'm not trying to insult anyone, or insist that you don't know what you're talking about Isho. I'm just tired of arguing semantics on this thread. Everyone seems hellbent on the theory that Control is Dead, but no one seems willing to accept it when someone presents a reasonable option for a control deck, specifics be damned. Tron is certainly not a typical control build, but you have to admit that it plays out like control often enough, and as the opposing side I can tell you that it feels just like I'm playing against U/W Control. It doesn't matter if you land a huge Legendary Pain in the Ass or a Gideon Jura if the end result is the same. I can't deal with it, I'm way to far behind, and you've spend most of your midgame building up a manabase and stopping my relevant spells from resolving on time. By the time you get your threat down, I'm too far behind in mana and momentum to respond profitably, and you still have a decent sized hand to stop me, thanks to card advantage.
Tron tries to stop its opponent's early plays long enough to lock up the late game. Call it a "soft lock", or a combo finish, or whatever. (Elesh and Iona both represent a soft lock). It still resembles a control deck enough to justify talking about it on this thread.
If I told you all that Faeries was control, it would get flamed down. Jund? Nah that's midrangey-controllish-aggro, but not control. The New Aggro Loam? Definitely can't be control. Caw-Blade? Nope, Aggro-Tempo. The point is, there isn't a deck that is strictly Control anymore according to mtgsalvation jong standards. So what are we left to talk about? Decks that contain control elements, or that resemble control in other formats. Clearly the definition of "control" is a problem, and I have no interest in continuing to beat the proverbial dead horse. But it's very narrow-minded to exclude every deck that blurs the lines or contains elements of the coveted "Classic Control".
Let's put this another way, using some Strategic MTG Fundamentals. Take a look at some of the better decks in the format right now, something like this as an example (don't bother pointing out why I'm wrong here, this is just an exercise):
Melira Pod
Jund
Boros
Affinity
Caw-Blade
Delver Decks
Faeries
Martyr-Proc
Bant
Storm
Aggro-Loam
U/W Tron
Now play Tron against all those decks, and tell me in how many of those matchups is Tron going to be the beatdown? How many games will it need to take the controlling role, at least until it can land one of its signature haymakers? Clearly, the Tron player is rarely going to be the Aggressive deck, especially after sideboarding happens. Usually, you will be sitting back waiting to respond to whatever your opponent does until you can take over the game with a win condition. Playing the role of Control. Not always, no, but most of the games yes.
Regardless of what you want to call the deck style, when it comes down to it's role in the metagame, my argument is that Tron is filling the shoes of Control, in the absence of the more traditional control decks. And yes, if Wolf Run was at the top of the Control Food Chain in standard I would maybe say similar things about that deck too. But Standard sill has 4CC Control, U/B Control, and yes even Solar Flare and the various Reanimator Control lists.
In Modern, what deck is filling the Control position in the Rock-Paper-Scissors Trifecta if it isn't U/W Tron?
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Very well said. Thank you.
The crux of the problem is that we have a society of magic players (obviously many old ones) who are hanging onto an archetype that no longer exists as it was back in the day, and because of THAT...claim that the archetype itself is dead and buried.
I took my Vintage permission deck apart (4 Force of Will, 4 Mana Drain, 4 Counterspell, 4 Control Magic) because it became boring as hell to play.
Counter that, counter that, counter that, ho-hum drop my mox, lotus, Sphinx Of Magosi and beat your face in.
At least Oath of Druids decks offer some challenge in assembling the pieces.
Classic control can get boring to play and is even more boring to play against as you sit there and just watch everything you do get countered.
This is why WotC said "ENOUGH!" and nerfed the hell out of spells, specifically counter magic.
So now you have to do a little more thinking than just "ho-hum, counter."
Control exists and I agree with HLZ's assessment. There are decks that, while not classic control decks, play similar enough to them. Tron is a great example as it can be frustrating as hell to play against when everything you try to do gets shot down...maybe not in the traditional "control" sort of way.
We have 2 choices.
1. We can accept that the concept of what "control" is has changed and incorporate "borderline" decks into the control sphere of influence.
OR...
2. We can just call this game "Rock and Paper" because Scissors no longer has a home or a definition relevant to 2012 and beyond.
Your choice.
2. LSV's Tron deck plays 15 reactive control cards in the MD. That's not much less than in The Deck (19). A control deck takes control of the game until it can win on the back of superior threats. Does it matter if that threat is a Serra Angel on turn 20 or a Millstone or a Consecrated Sphinx on turn 6 or an Eldrazi on turn 5 or a Tendrils of Agony on turn 3. The only thing you're doing there is moving the deck on the sliding scales of speed and finisher size. They are designed to neutralize the opponent's threats, then win. I fail to see how that isn't control.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
Last time I checked sweepers were reactive....... I mean your reacting to the board state for defensive purposes. It is essentially offense= proactive defense= reactive.
even discard can be reactive in this sense unless your objective is to remove their hand. The most proactive things that control can do is to drop lockdown permanents like moat, but these still serve defensive purposes most of the time.
The very nature of control means that it never intends to be proactive. The whole purpose is to win the game then drop something to formally finish the game. This can be achieved through 1 for 1s like removal, counterspells or discard, or can be achieved through mass removal, or lockdown permanents that give you virtual card advantage.(like moat making your opponents creatures worthless)
A deck like teachings is a true control deck which wins with proactive cards and card advantage. A deck like faeries which I am playing right now wins by attacking and gaining a tempo advantage with cards like remand and mistbind clique. It comes down to a decks mantra. Control decks will never focus on playing dudes and attacking. This will happen from time to time depending on the situation, but this is not what they are built for.
Why twin is not a control deck: generally twin doesn't have to react much with opponents other than to protect itself from things that would stop its combo which is its plan. It plans to combine 2 cards as fast as possible in order to win. If it fails to draw the combo it will often have to take the control roll because other decks have more consistent means to be aggressive, but you don't pick up a twin deck thinking I am going to combo off after my opponent has been grinned out.
Why (lsv)tron isn't a control deck:
First and foremost your trying to cast the gifts unburial combo as early as possible unless you know that it can be answered. Then you have the mana ramp into an eldrazi as a back up plan. Kinda like how thopter depths decks had a combo win condition in depths but if they didn't draw it or it was disrupted they had a plan B by taking control of games in matchups where they could and casting a slower win condition.(thopters)
Whenever you pick up a deck your need to ask yourself what is my plan A. If it is anything but to grind out your opponent then your not playing a control deck. After you know what your playing you can assume the control roll for example your playing jund against affinity. They are more aggressive than you are so your forced into plan B which is to bring in mass removal or 2 for 1 cards like ancient grudge that allow you to be better at the control roll. This is why jund is not the best deck against fast aggro decks because it has to alter its identity in order to save face. Luckly for jund ancient grudge helps a lot, which is why it s pretty close with affinity games 2 and 3. Boros is often times a beating for jund because most don't run mass removal which makes it nearly impossible to play the control roll because you don't have the card advantage you need to grind games out and it becomes completely dependent on draws.
The best control deck I have seen so far is the deck that is called aggro loam. Really in all respects it is a control deck that uses cheap guys for card draw or to end games once it has grinded its opponents out. It doesn't have much traditional card draw, but loam + retrace is a silly source of card advantage and running both a reomval and discard spell with retrace allows it to adapt to both combo/control, and aggro matches. This is something that a deck like teachings lacks.