Here is the actual issue, and I am speaking as a die-hard-misplaced-vintage control player.
The magic population in general, especially many of the old timers like me, can't let go of the way magic used to be with counter filled oppressive decks that made people want to throw their cards against a wall when playing against them. Same with land destruction.
Finally, after listening to complaint after complaint, WotC said, okay...we get it.
They virtually killed land destruction and nerfed "old school" control to the point where it's a shell of what it was.
They did it on purpose, they did it for a reason and they are NOT EVER GOING TO LET THINGS GO BACK TO THE WAY THEY WERE.
So the ONLY issue is that players won't let it go.
I get their frustration. It's the main reason why I wish I could find people in my area to play Vintage with. I can't. So my options are modern, standard or play a different game if I'm not happy with the direction that Magic has taken.
I love this game too much to give it up, even though I can all but toss out most of my blue cards with a few exceptions.
I made myself learn to love to bash people's faces in with creatures. The rare occasion that I can get a game of old school Vintage in, I'm grateful. But in the meantime, Modern is what it is. It's not going to be what control players want it to be even if they stood on their head, whistled Dixie, and threatened to burn every Black Lotus in existence.
So on behalf of myself (again, a die hard Vintage control player) and every other control player on this planet, I say it's time to get over yourself and accept this game for what it's become.
Meh. Ancestral Vision would help Tempo, Midrange and True Control. Why can't we have that?
Because WotC doesn't want you to. How hard is that to understand? They essentially want all powerful blue dig spells out of the format. They want no overpowered counters. They don't want anything that's going to piss off the majority of the players.
If they wanted AV in, they would have made modern go back to the last block that Counterspell was printed in. After all, how much harm can a 2 CMC (2 blue to boot) hard counter be?
You can meh all you want. I can see the reason for every card on that banned list, especially the blue ones. Digging is too powerful. Card advantage is too powerful. Why? Because of some of the ridiculous things that you can dig FOR.
Want to play AV? Go play Legacy or Vintage. It's not banned or even restricted. You can play with 4 of them if you like.
But don't expect to play it in modern, not when there is no restricted list and you can have 4 of those monsters in your deck.
Because WotC doesn't want you to. How hard is that to understand? They essentially want all powerful blue dig spells out of the format. They want no overpowered counters. They don't want anything that's going to piss off the majority of the players.
If they wanted AV in, they would have made modern go back to the last block that Counterspell was printed in. After all, how much harm can a 2 CMC (2 blue to boot) hard counter be?
You can meh all you want. I can see the reason for every card on that banned list, especially the blue ones. Digging is too powerful. Card advantage is too powerful. Why? Because of some of the ridiculous things that you can dig FOR.
Want to play AV? Go play Legacy or Vintage. It's not banned or even restricted. You can play with 4 of them if you like.
But don't expect to play it in modern, not when there is no restricted list and you can have 4 of those monsters in your deck.
I don't think it's fair to call a card that was bordeline playable in Legacy and Old Extended, and is unplayable in Vintage a "monster"
I also don't think it's fair to ban cards that haven't had a chance to be proven too good. You can't say vision is a monster in Modern because it hasn't existed in modern.
I don't think it's fair to call a card that was bordeline playable in Legacy and Old Extended, and is unplayable in Vintage a "monster"
I also don't think it's fair to ban cards that haven't had a chance to be proven too good. You can't say vision is a monster in Modern because it hasn't existed in modern.
It doesn't have to exist to see the potential harm that it can do.
Imagine just dropping 2 of these turn 1. 4 turns later it's 6 cards.
That's insane. And if they've banned Ponder and Preordain, which are nowhere near as broken for this format, there is no way in hell that they're allowing AV in.
I think there is room for wizards to do something to make blue based control more viable. It doesn't have to be unbanning a card, they could custom design a new card to get the job done.
While previous posters are right that there will probably never be a dominant deck of this type again, WotC could stand to give the archetype small nudges toward playability.
There are things they could do that would make the decks better but not overwhelmingly so.
Or perhaps in time they will just do some things to slow the environment as a whole enough for what currently exists of this type to be better comparatively. But that would probably be at least a year off, as it would take more bannings than would be palatable at this time.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
The only issue in my eyes is people are not adapting to the format and are demanding they get to play the cards and decks they want/wish to play. Instead people should be looking at the card pool and build.
That being said I think in the future we will see a spell or 2 to boost control in Modern. Until then we have to deal with what we got.
I never have really played this type of control, that said, one of my close friends does. And over time I learned to really like playing against it when its good but fair.
There are so many things we could maybe run into in a tournament, it just makes me a little sad that this isn't really one.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
It doesn't have to exist to see the potential harm that it can do.
Imagine just dropping 2 of these turn 1. 4 turns later it's 6 cards.
That's insane. And if they've banned Ponder and Preordain, which are nowhere near as broken for this format, there is no way in hell that they're allowing AV in.
I will bet my best mule on that.
Well, seeing as it's just about impossible to drop 2of these turn 1, I'm going to disregard that statement.
Yes, you get 3 cards in 4 turns from 1 vision. That is of course, if it resolves, AND if you're not dead by then. AV is a card that best case scenario literally does nothing until turn 4. In a format where there are multiple decks than can turn 3 you, and one that can turn 2 you on a god draw, vision isn't as busted as it may seem.
They didn't ban Ponder and Preordain because they were good in control. Hell, there wasn't any control in PT Philly. They banned then because they were both auto 4-ofs in the combo decks that dominated that Pro Tour (combo decks that dominated because of how hard control got nuked, btw) Quick combo decks don't want a card draw spell that gets going turn 4 at the earliest, and is an awful topdeck. Every spell in those decks NEEDS to have an immediate impact or be a win condition. AV is neither of those things, and does nothing with Past in Flames.
If AV were legal and dominated the format, fine I would have no problem with it on the banned list, but my biggest problem with the banned list is that there are so many staple cards that were just decided guilty of crimes they didn't commit. Granted some cards like Skullclamp don't need to be proven. They're dumb. We know. But the format is still new, and we don't know that Jace, Jitte, Ancestral, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, dredge cards and the Artifact lands are actually too good to be legal.
Well, seeing as it's just about impossible to drop 2of these turn 1, I'm going to disregard that statement.
Yes, you get 3 cards in 4 turns from 1 vision. That is of course, if it resolves, AND if you're not dead by then. AV is a card that best case scenario literally does nothing until turn 4. In a format where there are multiple decks than can turn 3 you, and one that can turn 2 you on a god draw, vision isn't as busted as it may seem.
They didn't ban Ponder and Preordain because they were good in control. Hell, there wasn't any control in PT Philly. They banned then because they were both auto 4-ofs in the combo decks that dominated that Pro Tour (combo decks that dominated because of how hard control got nuked, btw) Quick combo decks don't want a card draw spell that gets going turn 4 at the earliest, and is an awful topdeck. Every spell in those decks NEEDS to have an immediate impact or be a win condition. AV is neither of those things, and does nothing with Past in Flames.
If AV were legal and dominated the format, fine I would have no problem with it on the banned list, but my biggest problem with the banned list is that there are so many staple cards that were just decided guilty of crimes they didn't commit. Granted some cards like Skullclamp don't need to be proven. They're dumb. We know. But the format is still new, and we don't know that Jace, Jitte, Ancestral, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, dredge cards and the Artifact lands are actually too good to be legal.
Okay, I'll bite on everything but the artifact lands. They were one of the primary reasons that affinity was the worst idea WotC ever came up with.
Not only should the artifact lands be banned, they should be burned and discarded from the face of the planet.
Here is the actual issue, and I am speaking as a die-hard-misplaced-vintage control player.
The magic population in general, especially many of the old timers like me, can't let go of the way magic used to be with counter filled oppressive decks that made people want to throw their cards against a wall when playing against them. Same with land destruction.
Finally, after listening to complaint after complaint, WotC said, okay...we get it.
They virtually killed land destruction and nerfed "old school" control to the point where it's a shell of what it was.
They did it on purpose, they did it for a reason and they are NOT EVER GOING TO LET THINGS GO BACK TO THE WAY THEY WERE.
So the ONLY issue is that players won't let it go.
I get their frustration. It's the main reason why I wish I could find people in my area to play Vintage with. I can't. So my options are modern, standard or play a different game if I'm not happy with the direction that Magic has taken.
I love this game too much to give it up, even though I can all but toss out most of my blue cards with a few exceptions.
I made myself learn to love to bash people's faces in with creatures. The rare occasion that I can get a game of old school Vintage in, I'm grateful. But in the meantime, Modern is what it is. It's not going to be what control players want it to be even if they stood on their head, whistled Dixie, and threatened to burn every Black Lotus in existence.
So on behalf of myself (again, a die hard Vintage control player) and every other control player on this planet, I say it's time to get over yourself and accept this game for what it's become.
Either that or find something else to play.
Because THAT is the ONLY issue.
As a player who also has a love for all archetypes (control, combo, and aggro). I can say you're dead wrong and just excusing a company for potentialy ruinning one of the best games ever made.
I love every aspect of magic. I love aggro, I love combo, and I love control. I love to have my spells countered, I love to counter spells. I love to bash with creatures, I love to be bashed with creatures. I enjoy watching a well tuned combo deck go off against me, I love comboing against other people.
I love the game whether I win or lose, honestly I do. So in the end, what do I love the most about this game?
The fact that there are so many routes to victor, all so radically different, and all with their own interesting nuances is what makes me love this game so much. Magic, when a format is healthy, it is a beautiful medly of game mechanics all churning in a flurry to provoke thought, and I like that. Its also why I love math, and logic, and philosophy.
I've played Street Fighter and Chess competatively, and Im no better at magic then I was fighting games or chess (I didn't really suck, but I didn't win any money tournaments either). Do you know why I now only play those occasionaly and instead play magic every other day? Because magic has the diversity that Chess and Street Fighter lack.
Sure, they have a profit motive, so yeah, they have a good reason to nerf everything but creatures and removal. But that doesn't change the fact that if the current trend doesn't stop (it hasn't gotten to the point of destroying the games diversity too badly), then eventual the game will be boring and pointless.
So excuse us for pointing out that, while wizards does have a profit motive for justification, and that you can't fault a man for wanting to make money, it doesn't mean the possible transformation of magic from a diverse nuanced game into whatever creature fest R&D is hoping will somehow suck less.
Its not an issue of not letting go, its an issue of that we are truly sad to see a game possibly going to the wayside in terms of depth and diversity. And if you still want to say that i'm just "being stubborn" or "unable to let go", then you must excuse me for wanting to hold on to something so beautiful.
As a player who also has a love for all archetypes (control, combo, and aggro). I can say you're dead wrong and just excusing a company for potentialy ruinning one of the best games ever made.
I love every aspect of magic. I love aggro, I love combo, and I love control. I love to have my spells countered, I love to counter spells. I love to bash with creatures, I love to be bashed with creatures. I enjoy watching a well tuned combo deck go off against me, I love comboing against other people.
I love the game whether I win or lose, honestly I do. So in the end, what do I love the most about this game?
The fact that there are so many routes to victor, all so radically different, and all with their own interesting nuances is what makes me love this game so much. Magic, when a format is healthy, it is a beautiful medly of game mechanics all churning in a flurry to provoke thought, and I like that. Its also why I love math, and logic, and philosophy.
I've played Street Fighter and Chess competatively, and Im no better at magic then I was fighting games or chess (I didn't really suck, but I didn't win any money tournaments either). Do you know why I now only play those occasionaly and instead play magic every other day? Because magic has the diversity that Chess and Street Fighter lack.
Sure, they have a profit motive, so yeah, they have a good reason to nerf everything but creatures and removal. But that doesn't change the fact that if the current trend doesn't stop (it hasn't gotten to the point of destroying the games diversity too badly), then eventual the game will be boring and pointless.
So excuse us for pointing out that, while wizards does have a profit motive for justification, and that you can't fault a man for wanting to make money, it doesn't mean the possible transformation of magic from a diverse nuanced game into whatever creature fest R&D is hoping will somehow suck less.
Its not an issue of not letting go, its an issue of that we are truly sad to see a game possibly going to the wayside in terms of depth and diversity. And if you still want to say that i'm just "being stubborn" or "unable to let go", then you must excuse me for wanting to hold on to something so beautiful.
Thank you very much sir.
Would you have rather Wotc just closed up shop? They had to change and adapt to what the majority of players PAYING for the product wanted. I understand Magic has changed over the years, I have been playing since 1993. Once Hasbro bought Wotc this type of change was expected by most. Wotc did some research and found what the majority didnt want to play against and phased it out. We can be angry all we want, but if Wotc is making more money the way the game is NOW, dont expect any slide back to how it was.
Okay, I'll bite on everything but the artifact lands. They were one of the primary reasons that affinity was the worst idea WotC ever came up with.
Not only should the artifact lands be banned, they should be burned and discarded from the face of the planet.
The only reason I include them is because I personally think they make affinity easier to hate out. Kataki or a Creeping Corrosion literally wipes all of their permanents. (Or if you want to get real techy, Fracturing Gust) I guess it makes Affinity more like Dredge in the way that if you draw a hate card, they pretty much die, but if you don't, you pretty much die. But seeing as everyone ever hates Dredge, I can get where you're coming from.
As for my personal preference in styles of play, I really just like powerful cards, not specifically blue ones. I will always test just about every deck that I think has potential, regardless of color, and play what I think I have the best shot to win with. It happens to usually be control, since it fits my playstyle better (I mean, I did start playing competitive Magic with Vintage), but I will really play anything. My favorite [potentially] modern legal cards are Wild Nacatl, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Bloodbraid Elf, Green Sun's Zenith, Bitterblossom, Mystical Teachings, Jace TMS, Path to Exile, Gaddock Teeg, Aven Mindcensor, Trinket Mage, Ancestral Vision, Umezewa's jitte, and my BFF, Dark Confidant; so for those who like to know those things, or think I'm just trying to get my pet cards unbanned, there ya go. A fairly diverse background.
To be perfectly honest, if all the blue cards, dredge cards, and Artifact lands were off the initial banned list, and replaced with Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Lightning Bolt, and Cranial Plating, I'd be advocating for their unbannings. I'm motivated not by a love for blue or combo, but for a hatred of banned cards.
As a player who also has a love for all archetypes (control, combo, and aggro). I can say you're dead wrong and just excusing a company for potentialy ruinning one of the best games ever made.
I love every aspect of magic. I love aggro, I love combo, and I love control. I love to have my spells countered, I love to counter spells. I love to bash with creatures, I love to be bashed with creatures. I enjoy watching a well tuned combo deck go off against me, I love comboing against other people.
I love the game whether I win or lose, honestly I do. So in the end, what do I love the most about this game?
The fact that there are so many routes to victor, all so radically different, and all with their own interesting nuances is what makes me love this game so much. Magic, when a format is healthy, it is a beautiful medly of game mechanics all churning in a flurry to provoke thought, and I like that. Its also why I love math, and logic, and philosophy.
I've played Street Fighter and Chess competatively, and Im no better at magic then I was fighting games or chess (I didn't really suck, but I didn't win any money tournaments either). Do you know why I now only play those occasionaly and instead play magic every other day? Because magic has the diversity that Chess and Street Fighter lack.
Sure, they have a profit motive, so yeah, they have a good reason to nerf everything but creatures and removal. But that doesn't change the fact that if the current trend doesn't stop (it hasn't gotten to the point of destroying the games diversity too badly), then eventual the game will be boring and pointless.
So excuse us for pointing out that, while wizards does have a profit motive for justification, and that you can't fault a man for wanting to make money, it doesn't mean the possible transformation of magic from a diverse nuanced game into whatever creature fest R&D is hoping will somehow suck less.
Its not an issue of not letting go, its an issue of that we are truly sad to see a game possibly going to the wayside in terms of depth and diversity. And if you still want to say that i'm just "being stubborn" or "unable to let go", then you must excuse me for wanting to hold on to something so beautiful.
Thank you very much sir.
I understand where you are coming from. Again, die hard old school vintage control player here who longs for the days of old.
But I'm not dead wrong, at least not for the majority. The game didn't change because WotC woke up one day and said, "Hey, let's screw counter magic and land destruction just for the hell of it." They did it because enough people said that they hated it to warrant changing it.
Had they not, this game that we both love might not have existed anymore.
I'm sorry that you no longer enjoy this game as much. I'm sorry that you might someday stop playing it if they don't set it back to the way it was.
But this is the lot that we're left with. I love the game too much to cut off my nose to spite my face by telling WotC that if they don't give me back the game I played 18 years ago I'll quit.
Magic, as it is today, is still better than no Magic at all.
At least that's the way I look at it, though we obviously don't agree.
I'm motivated not by a love for blue or combo, but for a hatred of banned cards.
..and thats where you and I disagree. I understand Wotc HAS to ban certain cards to balance the format. Having the format just there with no bans would be just a terrible playing experience for many. Wotc needs to make the format somewhat enjoyable for many people so it can thrive. Making a format narrow so only a select few enjoy it wouldnt be profitable for Wotc.
The only reason I include them is because I personally think they make affinity easier to hate out. Kataki or a Creeping Corrosion literally wipes all of their permanents. (Or if you want to get real techy, Fracturing Gust) I guess it makes Affinity more like Dredge in the way that if you draw a hate card, they pretty much die, but if you don't, you pretty much die. But seeing as everyone ever hates Dredge, I can get where you're coming from.
As for my personal preference in styles of play, I really just like powerful cards, not specifically blue ones. I will always test just about every deck that I think has potential, regardless of color, and play what I think I have the best shot to win with. It happens to usually be control, since it fits my playstyle better (I mean, I did start playing competitive Magic with Vintage), but I will really play anything. My favorite [potentially] modern legal cards are Wild Nacatl, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Bloodbraid Elf, Green Sun's Zenith, Bitterblossom, Mystical Teachings, Jace TMS, Path to Exile, Gaddock Teeg, Aven Mindcensor, Trinket Mage, Ancestral Vision, Umezewa's jitte, and my BFF, Dark Confidant; so for those who like to know those things, or think I'm just trying to get my pet cards unbanned, there ya go. A fairly diverse background.
To be perfectly honest, if all the blue cards, dredge cards, and Artifact lands were off the initial banned list, and replaced with Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Lightning Bolt, and Cranial Plating, I'd be advocating for their unbannings. I'm motivated not by a love for blue or combo, but for a hatred of banned cards.
Personally, I'm not a fan of banned cards either, which is why I prefer Vintage of all the formats. I can deal with a restricted list only because 4 of some of those cards would be ridiculous.
But I understand the need for banned cards in a format that doesn't quite have the card pool of Vintage and Legacy. What would happen is that certain decks would be so powerful that the majority of the players would play those decks and the format would become stale.
I'm not saying it would be as bad as:
Black Summer
Affinity
Caw-Blade
when they were standard dominated. But it would be bad...very bad. We'd have 2 or 3 decks being played at most.
That's just not a good thing.
If you're that unhappy with how modern is shaping up then maybe you should play Legacy or Vintage. Because I don't see this format changing to any significant degree.
Would you have rather Wotc just closed up shop? They had to change and adapt to what the majority of players PAYING for the product wanted. I understand Magic has changed over the years, I have been playing since 1993. Once Hasbro bought Wotc this type of change was expected by most. Wotc did some research and found what the majority didnt want to play against and phased it out. We can be angry all we want, but if Wotc is making more money the way the game is NOW, dont expect any slide back to how it was.
Note how I said that they haven't gotten to the point of killing the game. I still believe the game is good, although less so then it used to be. Its only lost a very small portion of its appeal to me. But there are undeniable trends, and my concern is with them continueing.
I've got a job and I got a life. I'm not rich, but I live comfortably. Im not always angry (no matter how much other that disagree might like to paint me as). In fact, im pretty laid back. Im just highly disturbed by this.
What can we do to stop it? Well over the last year, with everyone I have introduced to the game, I have made sure to introduce them with whatever combo deck/control deck I have available. A funny thing happens. The vast majority of these people (7 out of the 9 I have introduced), gain a respect for those archetypes and not a noobish resentment. When playing against those types decks they don't cringe, and they even win on a farily regular basis.
So i think what we need to do when introducing people to magic is introduce them with the exact opposite of the burn/stomppy-lifegain introduction. We need, to start with combo/control introductions, and maybe the tone of all those letter will change.
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Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
Note how I said that they haven't gotten to the point of killing the game. I still believe the game is good, although less so then it used to be. Its only lost a very small portion of its appeal to me. But there are undeniable trends, and my concern is with them continueing.
I've got a job and I got a life. I'm not rich, but I live comfortably. Im not always angry (no matter how much other that disagree might like to paint me as). In fact, im pretty laid back. Im just highly disturbed by this.
What can we do to stop it? Well over the last year, with everyone I have introduced to the game, I have made sure to introduce them with whatever combo deck/control deck I have available. A funny thing happens. The vast majority of these people (7 out of the 9 I have introduced), gain a respect for those archetypes and not a noobish resentment. When playing against those types decks they don't cringe, and they even win on a farily regular basis.
So i think what we need to do when introducing people to magic is introduce them with the exact opposite of the burn/stomppy-lifegain introduction. We need, to start with combo/control introductions, and maybe the tone of all those letter will change.
That it part of the problem. There is no offical way to introduce new players to the game. Some players just gravitate toward certain types of deck. Noobs seem to not understand life as a resource, or how counters can/should be played around. I also think it depends on when the new player gets into the game. If you have some pre-teen coming over from pokemon or yughio, they are going to have a different grasp of game play then someone in there mid 20s picking up a stratagy card game for the first time.
In the end, its about money. Wotc stays in business as long as Hasbro is pleased with the profit. Its a delicate balancing game Wotc HAS to play. Not everyone is going to be happy with how or what they do to the game to keep it fresh and profitable. But the great thing about the game is there are different formats to please most players.
So on behalf of myself (again, a die hard Vintage control player) and every other control player on this planet, I say it's time to get over yourself and accept this game for what it's become.
Either that or find something else to play.
Because THAT is the ONLY issue.
Well, you could stop playing all official formats, and just play casual games, which I did. Vingage and Legacy are too expensive, and Modern is mostly about bashing opponent with creatures.
Well, you could stop playing all official formats, and just play casual games, which I do. Vingage and Legacy are too expensive, and Modern is mostly about bashing opponent with creatures.
Yes, that's another option. Play pauper. Play EDH. Play 2HD. There are lots of casual formats that are lots of fun.
Not everything has to be about competitive magic.
But if you want to play competitive magic, it is what it is.
I don't think that enough cards are banned yet, for true control to exist in this format. My opinion has shifted on this matter in recent weeks. Too many format-damaging cards are still legal. I point a big finger at Bloodbraid Elf, which practically killed Control by itself for most of its existence in Standard, and has no excuse for being off the ban list. I don't think that Jund is a dangerous deck to the metagame, but giving The Rock that kind of engine is just a giant mistake. This metagame is warped because The Rock isn't supposed to power through countermagic by casting 4-mana sorceries, and control decks have no choice but to acknowledge this and adjust their plans. Who cares if your control deck can beat Jund with Bloodbraids? By deciding you want to beat Bloodbraid Elf, you have to take away your edge against something else that you would otherwise beat. This format has too much variety already without that problem to solve. So, if you want to play control, play a hybrid control strategy...shelve true control until the card pool is altered.
This game was built upon its mechanics, and it thrived for a long time because of its mechanics. Whenever cards are designed for any other reason than their mechanics, the game is weakened. I hope that Hasbro stops screwing around with marketing ploys and gets back on track, but the odds are slim that they will keep trying to push really stupid concepts like Werewolves, Trap cards, and planeswalkers.
I don't buy the argument that casual players get into magic because of the fluff and the marketing, and I have two major reasons. For starters, the best customer is the one you already have--it's better to have return business for the next 5 years than to have one guy walk in the door and never come back. And secondly, as soon as people start learning the game, they're not going to care about the fluff. They're either going to like the way the game plays out, or they're going to move on.
I don't think that enough cards are banned yet, for true control to exist in this format. My opinion has shifted on this matter in recent weeks. Too many format-damaging cards are still legal. I point a big finger at Bloodbraid Elf, which practically killed Control by itself for most of its existence in Standard, and has no excuse for being off the ban list. I don't think that Jund is a dangerous deck to the metagame, but giving The Rock that kind of engine is just a giant mistake. This metagame is warped because The Rock isn't supposed to power through countermagic by casting 4-mana sorceries, and control decks have no choice but to acknowledge this and adjust their plans. Who cares if your control deck can beat Jund with Bloodbraids? By deciding you want to beat Bloodbraid Elf, you have to take away your edge against something else that you would otherwise beat. This format has too much variety already without that problem to solve. So, if you want to play control, play a hybrid control strategy...shelve true control until the card pool is altered.
This game was built upon its mechanics, and it thrived for a long time because of its mechanics. Whenever cards are designed for any other reason than their mechanics, the game is weakened. I hope that Hasbro stops screwing around with marketing ploys and gets back on track, but the odds are slim that they will keep trying to push really stupid concepts like Werewolves, Trap cards, and planeswalkers.
I don't buy the argument that casual players get into magic because of the fluff and the marketing, and I have two major reasons. For starters, the best customer is the one you already have--it's better to have return business for the next 5 years than to have one guy walk in the door and never come back. And secondly, as soon as people start learning the game, they're not going to care about the fluff. They're either going to like the way the game plays out, or they're going to move on.
Couldn't agree more.
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Modern (I collect the format):
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I don't buy the argument that casual players get into magic because of the fluff and the marketing, and I have two major reasons. For starters, the best customer is the one you already have--it's better to have return business for the next 5 years than to have one guy walk in the door and never come back. And secondly, as soon as people start learning the game, they're not going to care about the fluff. They're either going to like the way the game plays out, or they're going to move on.
If it was just a small company like Wotc that was doing the business, I would agree with you 110%. The problem is they have to show Hasbro growth or Hasbro will shut Wotc down. If the game doesnt change, it will become stagnant. When the game becomes stagnant players will leave.
Wizards will help control decks with the ban list if needed.
Wizards won't help draw-go exist ever.
We already have teachings which is a tier2 deck and is pretty much draw-go. That's probably the maximum they're gonna let it be.
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Here is the actual issue, and I am speaking as a die-hard-misplaced-vintage control player.
The magic population in general, especially many of the old timers like me, can't let go of the way magic used to be with counter filled oppressive decks that made people want to throw their cards against a wall when playing against them. Same with land destruction.
Finally, after listening to complaint after complaint, WotC said, okay...we get it.
They virtually killed land destruction and nerfed "old school" control to the point where it's a shell of what it was.
They did it on purpose, they did it for a reason and they are NOT EVER GOING TO LET THINGS GO BACK TO THE WAY THEY WERE.
So the ONLY issue is that players won't let it go.
I get their frustration. It's the main reason why I wish I could find people in my area to play Vintage with. I can't. So my options are modern, standard or play a different game if I'm not happy with the direction that Magic has taken.
I love this game too much to give it up, even though I can all but toss out most of my blue cards with a few exceptions.
I made myself learn to love to bash people's faces in with creatures. The rare occasion that I can get a game of old school Vintage in, I'm grateful. But in the meantime, Modern is what it is. It's not going to be what control players want it to be even if they stood on their head, whistled Dixie, and threatened to burn every Black Lotus in existence.
So on behalf of myself (again, a die hard Vintage control player) and every other control player on this planet, I say it's time to get over yourself and accept this game for what it's become.
Either that or find something else to play.
Because THAT is the ONLY issue.
Because WotC doesn't want you to. How hard is that to understand? They essentially want all powerful blue dig spells out of the format. They want no overpowered counters. They don't want anything that's going to piss off the majority of the players.
If they wanted AV in, they would have made modern go back to the last block that Counterspell was printed in. After all, how much harm can a 2 CMC (2 blue to boot) hard counter be?
You can meh all you want. I can see the reason for every card on that banned list, especially the blue ones. Digging is too powerful. Card advantage is too powerful. Why? Because of some of the ridiculous things that you can dig FOR.
Want to play AV? Go play Legacy or Vintage. It's not banned or even restricted. You can play with 4 of them if you like.
But don't expect to play it in modern, not when there is no restricted list and you can have 4 of those monsters in your deck.
I don't think it's fair to call a card that was bordeline playable in Legacy and Old Extended, and is unplayable in Vintage a "monster"
I also don't think it's fair to ban cards that haven't had a chance to be proven too good. You can't say vision is a monster in Modern because it hasn't existed in modern.
It doesn't have to exist to see the potential harm that it can do.
Imagine just dropping 2 of these turn 1. 4 turns later it's 6 cards.
That's insane. And if they've banned Ponder and Preordain, which are nowhere near as broken for this format, there is no way in hell that they're allowing AV in.
I will bet my best mule on that.
While previous posters are right that there will probably never be a dominant deck of this type again, WotC could stand to give the archetype small nudges toward playability.
There are things they could do that would make the decks better but not overwhelmingly so.
Or perhaps in time they will just do some things to slow the environment as a whole enough for what currently exists of this type to be better comparatively. But that would probably be at least a year off, as it would take more bannings than would be palatable at this time.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
The only issue in my eyes is people are not adapting to the format and are demanding they get to play the cards and decks they want/wish to play. Instead people should be looking at the card pool and build.
That being said I think in the future we will see a spell or 2 to boost control in Modern. Until then we have to deal with what we got.
There are so many things we could maybe run into in a tournament, it just makes me a little sad that this isn't really one.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
Well, seeing as it's just about impossible to drop 2of these turn 1, I'm going to disregard that statement.
Yes, you get 3 cards in 4 turns from 1 vision. That is of course, if it resolves, AND if you're not dead by then. AV is a card that best case scenario literally does nothing until turn 4. In a format where there are multiple decks than can turn 3 you, and one that can turn 2 you on a god draw, vision isn't as busted as it may seem.
They didn't ban Ponder and Preordain because they were good in control. Hell, there wasn't any control in PT Philly. They banned then because they were both auto 4-ofs in the combo decks that dominated that Pro Tour (combo decks that dominated because of how hard control got nuked, btw) Quick combo decks don't want a card draw spell that gets going turn 4 at the earliest, and is an awful topdeck. Every spell in those decks NEEDS to have an immediate impact or be a win condition. AV is neither of those things, and does nothing with Past in Flames.
If AV were legal and dominated the format, fine I would have no problem with it on the banned list, but my biggest problem with the banned list is that there are so many staple cards that were just decided guilty of crimes they didn't commit. Granted some cards like Skullclamp don't need to be proven. They're dumb. We know. But the format is still new, and we don't know that Jace, Jitte, Ancestral, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, dredge cards and the Artifact lands are actually too good to be legal.
Okay, I'll bite on everything but the artifact lands. They were one of the primary reasons that affinity was the worst idea WotC ever came up with.
Not only should the artifact lands be banned, they should be burned and discarded from the face of the planet.
I love every aspect of magic. I love aggro, I love combo, and I love control. I love to have my spells countered, I love to counter spells. I love to bash with creatures, I love to be bashed with creatures. I enjoy watching a well tuned combo deck go off against me, I love comboing against other people.
I love the game whether I win or lose, honestly I do. So in the end, what do I love the most about this game?
The fact that there are so many routes to victor, all so radically different, and all with their own interesting nuances is what makes me love this game so much. Magic, when a format is healthy, it is a beautiful medly of game mechanics all churning in a flurry to provoke thought, and I like that. Its also why I love math, and logic, and philosophy.
I've played Street Fighter and Chess competatively, and Im no better at magic then I was fighting games or chess (I didn't really suck, but I didn't win any money tournaments either). Do you know why I now only play those occasionaly and instead play magic every other day? Because magic has the diversity that Chess and Street Fighter lack.
Sure, they have a profit motive, so yeah, they have a good reason to nerf everything but creatures and removal. But that doesn't change the fact that if the current trend doesn't stop (it hasn't gotten to the point of destroying the games diversity too badly), then eventual the game will be boring and pointless.
So excuse us for pointing out that, while wizards does have a profit motive for justification, and that you can't fault a man for wanting to make money, it doesn't mean the possible transformation of magic from a diverse nuanced game into whatever creature fest R&D is hoping will somehow suck less.
Its not an issue of not letting go, its an issue of that we are truly sad to see a game possibly going to the wayside in terms of depth and diversity. And if you still want to say that i'm just "being stubborn" or "unable to let go", then you must excuse me for wanting to hold on to something so beautiful.
Thank you very much sir.
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Would you have rather Wotc just closed up shop? They had to change and adapt to what the majority of players PAYING for the product wanted. I understand Magic has changed over the years, I have been playing since 1993. Once Hasbro bought Wotc this type of change was expected by most. Wotc did some research and found what the majority didnt want to play against and phased it out. We can be angry all we want, but if Wotc is making more money the way the game is NOW, dont expect any slide back to how it was.
The only reason I include them is because I personally think they make affinity easier to hate out. Kataki or a Creeping Corrosion literally wipes all of their permanents. (Or if you want to get real techy, Fracturing Gust) I guess it makes Affinity more like Dredge in the way that if you draw a hate card, they pretty much die, but if you don't, you pretty much die. But seeing as everyone ever hates Dredge, I can get where you're coming from.
As for my personal preference in styles of play, I really just like powerful cards, not specifically blue ones. I will always test just about every deck that I think has potential, regardless of color, and play what I think I have the best shot to win with. It happens to usually be control, since it fits my playstyle better (I mean, I did start playing competitive Magic with Vintage), but I will really play anything. My favorite [potentially] modern legal cards are Wild Nacatl, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Bloodbraid Elf, Green Sun's Zenith, Bitterblossom, Mystical Teachings, Jace TMS, Path to Exile, Gaddock Teeg, Aven Mindcensor, Trinket Mage, Ancestral Vision, Umezewa's jitte, and my BFF, Dark Confidant; so for those who like to know those things, or think I'm just trying to get my pet cards unbanned, there ya go. A fairly diverse background.
To be perfectly honest, if all the blue cards, dredge cards, and Artifact lands were off the initial banned list, and replaced with Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Lightning Bolt, and Cranial Plating, I'd be advocating for their unbannings. I'm motivated not by a love for blue or combo, but for a hatred of banned cards.
I understand where you are coming from. Again, die hard old school vintage control player here who longs for the days of old.
But I'm not dead wrong, at least not for the majority. The game didn't change because WotC woke up one day and said, "Hey, let's screw counter magic and land destruction just for the hell of it." They did it because enough people said that they hated it to warrant changing it.
Had they not, this game that we both love might not have existed anymore.
I'm sorry that you no longer enjoy this game as much. I'm sorry that you might someday stop playing it if they don't set it back to the way it was.
But this is the lot that we're left with. I love the game too much to cut off my nose to spite my face by telling WotC that if they don't give me back the game I played 18 years ago I'll quit.
Magic, as it is today, is still better than no Magic at all.
At least that's the way I look at it, though we obviously don't agree.
But no...I am not dead wrong.
Sadly, I am way too right.
..and thats where you and I disagree. I understand Wotc HAS to ban certain cards to balance the format. Having the format just there with no bans would be just a terrible playing experience for many. Wotc needs to make the format somewhat enjoyable for many people so it can thrive. Making a format narrow so only a select few enjoy it wouldnt be profitable for Wotc.
Personally, I'm not a fan of banned cards either, which is why I prefer Vintage of all the formats. I can deal with a restricted list only because 4 of some of those cards would be ridiculous.
But I understand the need for banned cards in a format that doesn't quite have the card pool of Vintage and Legacy. What would happen is that certain decks would be so powerful that the majority of the players would play those decks and the format would become stale.
I'm not saying it would be as bad as:
Black Summer
Affinity
Caw-Blade
when they were standard dominated. But it would be bad...very bad. We'd have 2 or 3 decks being played at most.
That's just not a good thing.
If you're that unhappy with how modern is shaping up then maybe you should play Legacy or Vintage. Because I don't see this format changing to any significant degree.
I've got a job and I got a life. I'm not rich, but I live comfortably. Im not always angry (no matter how much other that disagree might like to paint me as). In fact, im pretty laid back. Im just highly disturbed by this.
What can we do to stop it? Well over the last year, with everyone I have introduced to the game, I have made sure to introduce them with whatever combo deck/control deck I have available. A funny thing happens. The vast majority of these people (7 out of the 9 I have introduced), gain a respect for those archetypes and not a noobish resentment. When playing against those types decks they don't cringe, and they even win on a farily regular basis.
So i think what we need to do when introducing people to magic is introduce them with the exact opposite of the burn/stomppy-lifegain introduction. We need, to start with combo/control introductions, and maybe the tone of all those letter will change.
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That it part of the problem. There is no offical way to introduce new players to the game. Some players just gravitate toward certain types of deck. Noobs seem to not understand life as a resource, or how counters can/should be played around. I also think it depends on when the new player gets into the game. If you have some pre-teen coming over from pokemon or yughio, they are going to have a different grasp of game play then someone in there mid 20s picking up a stratagy card game for the first time.
In the end, its about money. Wotc stays in business as long as Hasbro is pleased with the profit. Its a delicate balancing game Wotc HAS to play. Not everyone is going to be happy with how or what they do to the game to keep it fresh and profitable. But the great thing about the game is there are different formats to please most players.
Well, you could stop playing all official formats, and just play casual games, which I did. Vingage and Legacy are too expensive, and Modern is mostly about bashing opponent with creatures.
Yes, that's another option. Play pauper. Play EDH. Play 2HD. There are lots of casual formats that are lots of fun.
Not everything has to be about competitive magic.
But if you want to play competitive magic, it is what it is.
Also, you can take the third option and whine on internet hoping that WOTC changes their mind.
This game was built upon its mechanics, and it thrived for a long time because of its mechanics. Whenever cards are designed for any other reason than their mechanics, the game is weakened. I hope that Hasbro stops screwing around with marketing ploys and gets back on track, but the odds are slim that they will keep trying to push really stupid concepts like Werewolves, Trap cards, and planeswalkers.
I don't buy the argument that casual players get into magic because of the fluff and the marketing, and I have two major reasons. For starters, the best customer is the one you already have--it's better to have return business for the next 5 years than to have one guy walk in the door and never come back. And secondly, as soon as people start learning the game, they're not going to care about the fluff. They're either going to like the way the game plays out, or they're going to move on.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
If it was just a small company like Wotc that was doing the business, I would agree with you 110%. The problem is they have to show Hasbro growth or Hasbro will shut Wotc down. If the game doesnt change, it will become stagnant. When the game becomes stagnant players will leave.
Wizards won't help draw-go exist ever.
We already have teachings which is a tier2 deck and is pretty much draw-go. That's probably the maximum they're gonna let it be.