Personally, I'm not a fan of banned cards either, which is why I prefer Vintage of all the formats. I can deal with a restricted list only because 4 of some of those cards would be ridiculous.
But I understand the need for banned cards in a format that doesn't quite have the card pool of Vintage and Legacy. What would happen is that certain decks would be so powerful that the majority of the players would play those decks and the format would become stale.
I'm not saying it would be as bad as:
Black Summer
Affinity
Caw-Blade
when they were standard dominated. But it would be bad...very bad. We'd have 2 or 3 decks being played at most.
That's just not a good thing.
If you're that unhappy with how modern is shaping up then maybe you should play Legacy or Vintage. Because I don't see this format changing to any significant degree.
I definitley agree that some cards have to be banned. I just don't agree with randomly picking cards and deciding they're too good without giving them a shot.
Look at the unbanning of Time Spiral in Legacy. People were flipping out about how insane the deck was going to be. Nobody had ever really thought it was a safe card to unban, but in the end, it just ended up being another deck that diversified the meta. I feel like a lot of cards on the Modern banned list could have this outcome.
If it was just a small company like Wotc that was doing the business, I would agree with you 110%. The problem is they have to show Hasbro growth or Hasbro will shut Wotc down. If the game doesnt change, it will become stagnant. When the game becomes stagnant players will leave.
I was talking about changing the game with stupid, half-baked marketing ploys. Obviously the game is going to diminish if they never print anything new and they never introduce new mechanics. But they should be focusing on making those changes under the hood, not with a bunch of eye shadow.
I'm sure Hasbro will probably shut WotC down in a couple of years, after the next "appeal to young people and idiots" ploy falls flat and everyone leaves the game. But I'm going to enjoy it until then.
I was talking about changing the game with stupid, half-baked marketing ploys. Obviously the game is going to diminish if they never print anything new and they never introduce new mechanics. But they should be focusing on making those changes under the hood, not with a bunch of eye shadow.
I'm sure Hasbro will probably shut WotC down in a couple of years, after the next "appeal to young people and idiots" ploy falls flat and everyone leaves the game. But I'm going to enjoy it until then.
If Hasbro is ever stupid enough to shut WotC down, somebody with a brain will buy the company from them. There is too much invested in this product and closing it down would impact a lot of people including players, card stores, independent vendors and so on.
Magic isn't going anywhere for a very, very. very long time.
I was talking about changing the game with stupid, half-baked marketing ploys. Obviously the game is going to diminish if they never print anything new and they never introduce new mechanics. But they should be focusing on making those changes under the hood, not with a bunch of eye shadow.
I'm sure Hasbro will probably shut WotC down in a couple of years, after the next "appeal to young people and idiots" ploy falls flat and everyone leaves the game. But I'm going to enjoy it until then.
Yup. I just left the Civilization franchise behind after they dumbed the game down for a console port. Me, and so many other people that the Lead Designer got axed. They could have printed slightly less powerful Control cards, like they did with the game in general, and things would be far more balanced, right now. If they are showing growth, I think it's most likely because of the new markets, which have no correlation with this corny "flavor revolution." It's the saddest part of the capitalism cycle; everything made for money is eventually destroyed in pursuit of more of it.
If Hasbro is ever stupid enough to shut WotC down, somebody with a brain will buy the company from them. There is too much invested in this product and closing it down would impact a lot of people including players, card stores, independent vendors and so on.
Magic isn't going anywhere for a very, very. very long time.
Unfortunately this won't happen because they'll just hire more "creative" people to come up with more flavor, and it'll turn into another Yugi-oh, holo cards and 5 billion-color palette included. What'll happen is somebody will make a fork of some sort, most likely purely online, and that'll be that. The game would have to become a whole lot more simple before that happens, of course.
You all got to remember, if Magic was so control-oppressive before, it would not have such an obsessive following. I know you love your Big Macs, but don't let the fast-food revolution make you think something was wrong with actual restaurants in the first place.
They're either going to like the way the game plays out, or they're going to move on.
This is basically the foundation for Hasbro's marketing strategy. They get most of their profits from people who drop 10 bucks on a starter deck and then never play again. I wish they would focus more on the people who love the game for it's complexity and mechanics but I feel like there isn't as much profit in that.
i think the most common mistake i see made is people assuming you need a specific color to be a real control deck
you just need a card advantage source blue tends to lean towards spells black towards enchantments and white and red through recurring threats green is kinda out in the cold
and a way to stall blue with counterspells black with discard and they all use some removal
and a strong win condition preferably one that protects itself and can control the board alone akroma angel of wrath, meloku the clouded mirror, etc
now modern itself may have too many threat of varieties that white red and green cant deal with but that doesnt mean that you cant make a true control deck without blue or black
the problem with true control is that it is meta specific and doesnt lend itself to being netdecked well you just have to make it yourself
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.“
This is basically the foundation for Hasbro's marketing strategy. They get most of their profits from people who drop 10 bucks on a starter deck and then never play again. I wish they would focus more on the people who love the game for it's complexity and mechanics but I feel like there isn't as much profit in that.
Fairly certain players like myself that are drafting 2-4 times a week is where WoTC makes their money
I think people are fundamentally misunderstanding what the pro-draw-go crowd is asking for.
No one is asking for the format to be sculpted so that Draw-Go is the #1 deck.
Right now its low Tier 2 or lower.
Is it too much to ask that a Tier 1.5 Draw-Go list be possible that can find success when you get the right read on the metagame?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
Is it too much to ask that a Tier 1.5 Draw-Go list be possible that can find success when you get the right read on the metagame?
Yes. I would like Draw-Go to not even be tier 2, Draw-Go isn't fun to play against at all and the majority of players agree and as a result WotC nerfed Draw-Go. And what you described is a tier 2 list, they can find success if the metagame is right, tier 1 and 1.5 decks will always be a decent choice regardless of the metagame because they are the top decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
I think people are fundamentally misunderstanding what the pro-draw-go crowd is asking for.
No one is asking for the format to be sculpted so that Draw-Go is the #1 deck.
Right now its low Tier 2 or lower.
Is it too much to ask that a Tier 1.5 Draw-Go list be possible that can find success when you get the right read on the metagame?
I haven't see anyone ask for draw go to be good. I have seen people wishing control as defined as a deck that wins through card advantage and focuses only on getting to the late game. Then people will randomly drop in well draw go is bad for the format. Draw go was a form of control, but it is not control. I mean you can look at "the deck" which someone posted earlier in this thread. It was the first control deck and it ran less than 10 counterspells. This is the kind of control deck that people want. Sure it has counterspells, but it is mostly focused on card advantage and defense.
There is also a firm difference between draw go and instant speed control. Just because I don't play most of my deck during my turn does not make it draw go. It makes it a good deck built to not be weak to combo decks or random haymakers like liliana. The fact that we really have no playable hard counters is tough since decks can easily play around mana leak, remand is for tempo decks, and things like spell snare are so conditional. This is where discard helps quite a bit.
I see two primary problems with control in this format:
1. Lack of cheap efficient card advantage.
Not only does this make 1 for 1 style control weak to decks that run fewer lands, but it also makes decks with cards like wrath of god much more of a dead card against decks like storm, because the fewer cards you draw the more valuable each one is.
The faster the format the less advantage good card draw can really produce. We really need something in the vein of ancestral visions. Cheap and effective. I honestly don't think a UU instant draw two cards would be too good. It would be close for standard, although if they put it in a core set it would have a short life, and in standard currently UU is pretty restrictive. Maybe make it and tell everyone that it is going to be banned in standard. Honestly making 1-2 "relic" cards a year that have their own expansion that is only legal in modern and eternal formats would be a neat idea.
2. Lack of reward for stalling the game out.
In the past control decks have had a big trump card that pretty much said if I resolve this I win. Now we don't outside of emrakul or other extremely expensive things that control decks won't ever get to. For instance thopter foundry + sword of the meek or even jace in standard. It will really take something on the level of thopters to be worth going to the late game.
How you would make something on this level without people *****ing about it is one thing though. It has to be slightly unfair to be good enough to matter. Of course it will be much more fair that many cards that are in the format, but people will still whine about it. Maybe a hexproff artifact that you can play UU or UB and turn into a creature. It has flying and its power is equal to the number of lands you have in play with a converted mana cost of like 2-3. It would not win early, could easily be blocked by things that fly, would be pretty resilient, and would close games out pretty quickly once you make it into the late game. I guess man lands are sort of like this, but they are much too weak to land hate and removal spells.
You already have a "Tier 2 or lower Draw-Go list that can find success when you get the right read on the metagame". So yeah if you're just being fixated on the tiers it's too much to ask.
Really, there's not much point in playing a "tier 2 or lower" deck in competitive, unless higher tier decks are prohibitively expensive. Basically, you are saying that draw-go shouldn't be playable.
All depend on matchups. If Teachings faces Burn or Affinity on the first rounds its hard to go X-0 because on those matchups you are 75% behind.
Sure that you can make very good results playing control but you need a % of luck higher than % of luck needed by Jund-player for make the same result, only this.
I am thinking on building an Esper Gifts control deck with the unburial combo, but dont know is the meta can be "controlled"
See, the problem is that it can't be controlled. Thats all there is too it it seems.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
Every deck is supposed to have good and bad matchups. Just because the top deck at the moment (jund) isn't control doesn't mean there's something wrong at all. Many decks needs more luck than Jund. The important part is that they're all played and winning left and right.
Please show me where anyone has said that the top deck deck needs to be Control.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
Yes, as has been pointed out before the meta is so broad that tier 2 decks have a very decent chance of going all the way, if the pilot is skilled enough.
I've played so many tier 2 decks in my life I can't even count them all. I play any deck that I feel I am skilled enough to pilot to victory.
Conversely, I will stay away from a tier 1 deck if it's too confusing, doesn't match my play style or isn't a good fit for my particular meta which may be quite different from everybody else's.
Don't know about you but I'd like to see UB faeries back with visions and/or bitterblossom. I prefer that 10 times to playing against twin or storm. Not that it would be broken... bitterblossom was banned just for hate issues.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGO Modern Player
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I definitley agree that some cards have to be banned. I just don't agree with randomly picking cards and deciding they're too good without giving them a shot.
Look at the unbanning of Time Spiral in Legacy. People were flipping out about how insane the deck was going to be. Nobody had ever really thought it was a safe card to unban, but in the end, it just ended up being another deck that diversified the meta. I feel like a lot of cards on the Modern banned list could have this outcome.
I was talking about changing the game with stupid, half-baked marketing ploys. Obviously the game is going to diminish if they never print anything new and they never introduce new mechanics. But they should be focusing on making those changes under the hood, not with a bunch of eye shadow.
I'm sure Hasbro will probably shut WotC down in a couple of years, after the next "appeal to young people and idiots" ploy falls flat and everyone leaves the game. But I'm going to enjoy it until then.
If Hasbro is ever stupid enough to shut WotC down, somebody with a brain will buy the company from them. There is too much invested in this product and closing it down would impact a lot of people including players, card stores, independent vendors and so on.
Magic isn't going anywhere for a very, very. very long time.
Yup. I just left the Civilization franchise behind after they dumbed the game down for a console port. Me, and so many other people that the Lead Designer got axed. They could have printed slightly less powerful Control cards, like they did with the game in general, and things would be far more balanced, right now. If they are showing growth, I think it's most likely because of the new markets, which have no correlation with this corny "flavor revolution." It's the saddest part of the capitalism cycle; everything made for money is eventually destroyed in pursuit of more of it.
Unfortunately this won't happen because they'll just hire more "creative" people to come up with more flavor, and it'll turn into another Yugi-oh, holo cards and 5 billion-color palette included. What'll happen is somebody will make a fork of some sort, most likely purely online, and that'll be that. The game would have to become a whole lot more simple before that happens, of course.
You all got to remember, if Magic was so control-oppressive before, it would not have such an obsessive following. I know you love your Big Macs, but don't let the fast-food revolution make you think something was wrong with actual restaurants in the first place.
This is basically the foundation for Hasbro's marketing strategy. They get most of their profits from people who drop 10 bucks on a starter deck and then never play again. I wish they would focus more on the people who love the game for it's complexity and mechanics but I feel like there isn't as much profit in that.
you just need a card advantage source blue tends to lean towards spells black towards enchantments and white and red through recurring threats green is kinda out in the cold
and a way to stall blue with counterspells black with discard and they all use some removal
and a strong win condition preferably one that protects itself and can control the board alone akroma angel of wrath, meloku the clouded mirror, etc
now modern itself may have too many threat of varieties that white red and green cant deal with but that doesnt mean that you cant make a true control deck without blue or black
the problem with true control is that it is meta specific and doesnt lend itself to being netdecked well you just have to make it yourself
Fairly certain players like myself that are drafting 2-4 times a week is where WoTC makes their money
Strong start amirite?
No one is asking for the format to be sculpted so that Draw-Go is the #1 deck.
Right now its low Tier 2 or lower.
Is it too much to ask that a Tier 1.5 Draw-Go list be possible that can find success when you get the right read on the metagame?
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
Modern is heading the way Legacy did. AKA control will be aggro/control, with cheap pressure while controlling your opponent.
Yes. I would like Draw-Go to not even be tier 2, Draw-Go isn't fun to play against at all and the majority of players agree and as a result WotC nerfed Draw-Go. And what you described is a tier 2 list, they can find success if the metagame is right, tier 1 and 1.5 decks will always be a decent choice regardless of the metagame because they are the top decks.
I haven't see anyone ask for draw go to be good. I have seen people wishing control as defined as a deck that wins through card advantage and focuses only on getting to the late game. Then people will randomly drop in well draw go is bad for the format. Draw go was a form of control, but it is not control. I mean you can look at "the deck" which someone posted earlier in this thread. It was the first control deck and it ran less than 10 counterspells. This is the kind of control deck that people want. Sure it has counterspells, but it is mostly focused on card advantage and defense.
There is also a firm difference between draw go and instant speed control. Just because I don't play most of my deck during my turn does not make it draw go. It makes it a good deck built to not be weak to combo decks or random haymakers like liliana. The fact that we really have no playable hard counters is tough since decks can easily play around mana leak, remand is for tempo decks, and things like spell snare are so conditional. This is where discard helps quite a bit.
I see two primary problems with control in this format:
1. Lack of cheap efficient card advantage.
Not only does this make 1 for 1 style control weak to decks that run fewer lands, but it also makes decks with cards like wrath of god much more of a dead card against decks like storm, because the fewer cards you draw the more valuable each one is.
The faster the format the less advantage good card draw can really produce. We really need something in the vein of ancestral visions. Cheap and effective. I honestly don't think a UU instant draw two cards would be too good. It would be close for standard, although if they put it in a core set it would have a short life, and in standard currently UU is pretty restrictive. Maybe make it and tell everyone that it is going to be banned in standard. Honestly making 1-2 "relic" cards a year that have their own expansion that is only legal in modern and eternal formats would be a neat idea.
2. Lack of reward for stalling the game out.
In the past control decks have had a big trump card that pretty much said if I resolve this I win. Now we don't outside of emrakul or other extremely expensive things that control decks won't ever get to. For instance thopter foundry + sword of the meek or even jace in standard. It will really take something on the level of thopters to be worth going to the late game.
How you would make something on this level without people *****ing about it is one thing though. It has to be slightly unfair to be good enough to matter. Of course it will be much more fair that many cards that are in the format, but people will still whine about it. Maybe a hexproff artifact that you can play UU or UB and turn into a creature. It has flying and its power is equal to the number of lands you have in play with a converted mana cost of like 2-3. It would not win early, could easily be blocked by things that fly, would be pretty resilient, and would close games out pretty quickly once you make it into the late game. I guess man lands are sort of like this, but they are much too weak to land hate and removal spells.
To be honest, I haven't.
Really, there's not much point in playing a "tier 2 or lower" deck in competitive, unless higher tier decks are prohibitively expensive. Basically, you are saying that draw-go shouldn't be playable.
Teachings wants nothing to do with Chrome Mox. And the only thing visions would do is make tempo decks better.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
I'll agree to that.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
Would you play control if it wasnt tier 1 or 1.5?
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I've played so many tier 2 decks in my life I can't even count them all. I play any deck that I feel I am skilled enough to pilot to victory.
Conversely, I will stay away from a tier 1 deck if it's too confusing, doesn't match my play style or isn't a good fit for my particular meta which may be quite different from everybody else's.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn