No, it didn't. I've never played Vintage but I can guarantee there is no deck with a 70% win rate because it would be banned.
Except for the part where cards in Vintage are not banned for power reasons so no decks can really be banned out of existence unless they absolutely require 2+ copies of a certain card to function. And there are definitely have been decks that are 80% against most of the field with some basically unwinnable matchups.
But as for the role of control in Modern, I kinda like that its going more towards Legacy where Tempo/Aggro-Control decks take the role of the slow grindy control decks. It makes games more interesting in my opinion because games are lot faster and the early game is more interesting since both sides are trying to apply pressure (although obviously one of the decks is the beatdown and the other is the control deck). I really think that traditional control decks are just obsolete now because the quality of creatures has gone up so much that playing few creatures doesn't seem as good anymore. Why bother trying to grind your opponent out when you can just play proactive cards like Delver and Snapcaster Mage? You're still in blue so you can still play your reactive cards (counterspells, removal, etc.) but at the same time you can be proactive and apply pressure to your opponent.
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Except for the part where cards in Vintage are not banned for power reasons so no decks can really be banned out of existence unless they absolutely require 2+ copies of a certain card to function. And there are definitely have been decks that are 80% against most of the field with some basically unwinnable matchups.
But as for the role of control in Modern, I kinda like that its going more towards Legacy where Tempo/Aggro-Control decks take the role of the slow grindy control decks. It makes games more interesting in my opinion because games are lot faster and the early game is more interesting since both sides are trying to apply pressure (although obviously one of the decks is the beatdown and the other is the control deck). I really think that traditional control decks are just obsolete now because the quality of creatures has gone up so much that playing few creatures doesn't seem as good anymore. Why bother trying to grind your opponent out when you can just play proactive cards like Delver and Snapcaster Mage? You're still in blue so you can still play your reactive cards (counterspells, removal, etc.) but at the same time you can be proactive and apply pressure to your opponent.
And therein lies the crux of why classic control just doesn't make sense today. It is so much easier to just beat somebody's face in than to try to grind out games whereas years ago, grinding was more patience than anything else. Eventually, you GOT there simply because of the power that control had.
And thank you for your contribution to the Vintage discussion. I'm still trying to clear the steam coming out of my ears.
Vintage is a different animal then Modern in so many ways, trying to compare is like comparing apples to automobiles. SInce the card pool of Modern starts about where Wotc gave the finger to classic control and other 'unfun' stratagies. Again, convention draw go isnt viable in Modern because it has not been viable in Standard for some time now. Did people think it would magicly appear once the format was announced? No good card draw, no good cheap counters, most control variants the past 5-7 years revolve around planeswalkers and their abilities. Add in the creatures with powerful etb or ltb triggers, classic control isnt viable. That doesnt mean a type of control isnt viable tho. Blue is not the only control color, just saying.
This is coming form someone who has played Vintage and couldnt stand it. I hate how every game revolves around the opening play of the game. To me its broken Magic. Things that should have never been in the game in the first place. Just my opinion.
Even in Standard, it takes a very well-tuned list and a dedicated and careful pilot to successfully run a Control deck to Victory. (i.e. Ben Stark's list at Orlando) Even then, sometimes the very best players would rather run a deck that presents a clock and still has controlling aspects, rather than stalling until a late game wincondition (finally) takes over the game. Going to time is a very big deal in large tournaments, and Aggro-Control decks don't have that problem. Add into that mix the power creep we've seen in creatures the last several years, and Classic Control really does lose some of it's luster.
But it's not gone forever. And just because it doesn't exist right now doesn't mean the format is poorly structured. I feel like Modern is in a very healthy place right now, and as the season progresses I'm sure we will see it grow and change in positive ways. Classic Control will find it's place, maybe only briefly, but it will happen. But if it's not there right now, why force it? If Wizards sees the format is healthy but lacking in that archetype, they might even unban a few cards that support "True Control". But just because the "Rock" in RockPaperScissors doesn't look the same, doesn't mean the format is stagnant or lacking in diversity.
Vintage is a different animal then Modern in so many ways, trying to compare is like comparing apples to automobiles. SInce the card pool of Modern starts about where Wotc gave the finger to classic control and other 'unfun' stratagies. Again, convention draw go isnt viable in Modern because it has not been viable in Standard for some time now. Did people think it would magicly appear once the format was announced? No good card draw, no good cheap counters, most control variants the past 5-7 years revolve around planeswalkers and their abilities. Add in the creatures with powerful etb or ltb triggers, classic control isnt viable. That doesnt mean a type of control isnt viable tho. Blue is not the only control color, just saying.
This is coming form someone who has played Vintage and couldnt stand it. I hate how every game revolves around the opening play of the game. To me its broken Magic. Things that should have never been in the game in the first place. Just my opinion.
I respect your opinion. A lot of people don't like Vintage. Personally, I love it. And yes, a lot of games come down to who has a FoW opening hand (or how many of them) but I've also played a lot of matches that were absolutely edge of your seat.
But back to modern.
You are right, conventional draw-go is dead.
But the bigger problem is that many people confuse permission with control. They are not the same thing...and that is where the lines get blurry.
In a true "permission" deck, essentially you are countering spells until you can drop your win-con.
In a "control" deck, you essentially keep the opponent from doing what he wants to do until you drop your win-con.
That type of "control" can take on any number of forms including removal, counters, planeswalkers and so on.
Personally, while I'm sorry to see straight permission go bye-bye, I concede that "control" still exists, even in standard, which is about as weak a format as you can get for permission decks.
In fact, this Friday, I'll be taking a deck that is all counters and removal to FNM. The win-con is a simple Sorin's Vengeance. This deck could easily be adapted to modern and possibly do quite well. It folds to BV decks, which is the problem. So my sideboard literally transforms this deck into an aggro deck for games 2 and 3.
There is no reason why you can't do something similar in modern.
Yeah, it sucks that counterspells of today aren't what they used to be. But that doesn't mean there aren't other ways to keep your opponent from doing what he wants to do.
Again...permission =/= control.
At least that's my opinion and 2 cents on the subject.
That is why I say tempo and discard are forms of control in Modern. Blue players are unhappy (which I can understand) because the control colors in Modern are black and red.
Vintage is a different animal then Modern in so many ways, trying to compare is like comparing apples to automobiles. SInce the card pool of Modern starts about where Wotc gave the finger to classic control and other 'unfun' stratagies. Again, convention draw go isnt viable in Modern because it has not been viable in Standard for some time now. Did people think it would magicly appear once the format was announced? No good card draw, no good cheap counters, most control variants the past 5-7 years revolve around planeswalkers and their abilities. Add in the creatures with powerful etb or ltb triggers, classic control isnt viable. That doesnt mean a type of control isnt viable tho. Blue is not the only control color, just saying.
This is coming form someone who has played Vintage and couldnt stand it. I hate how every game revolves around the opening play of the game. To me its broken Magic. Things that should have never been in the game in the first place. Just my opinion.
Except if wotc wouldn't have went ban nuts on the format control would have had a horse in the race for tier 1 contention. This format is so goddamn artificial. It is like buying a car with a 500hsp engine except you have a chip installed that forces you to put along like you have a four banger. You have all of that extra room to expand and innovate, but you can't because **** is banned. Give me back chrome mox. It is all I need. Then tron might be fast enough to compete.
That is why I say tempo and discard are forms of control in Modern. Blue players are unhappy (which I can understand) because the control colors in Modern are black and red.
cards are not control cards when in aggro decks. Is suicide black control? it runs a lot of discard so now it is control right....?:facepalm:
This is a fallacious argument and it has no purpose in this thread so it is spam. Please only post if you have ideas, potential decklist, or something else that actually contributed to the thread.
Thank you
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So, Slip, for a card to be a control card it cant be used in any other archtype? This isnt 1997 where cards are created for aggro, cards are created for control, cards are created for combo. The way they design their product has changed.
cards are not control cards when in aggro decks. Is suicide black control? it runs a lot of discard so now it is control right....?:facepalm:
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I think we have to first figure out what control is as a majority before you can decide what is and isnt considered a control card. I am sorry to say, discard and tempo IS control in the format. You are going to have to live with that because I think we can all agree draw-go permission style control isnt viable in the format.
Except if wotc wouldn't have went ban nuts on the format control would have had a horse in the race for tier 1 contention. This format is so goddamn artificial. It is like buying a car with a 500hsp engine except you have a chip installed that forces you to put along like you have a four banger. You have all of that extra room to expand and innovate, but you can't because **** is banned. Give me back chrome mox. It is all I need. Then tron might be fast enough to compete.
cards are not control cards when in aggro decks. Is suicide black control? it runs a lot of discard so now it is control right....?:facepalm:
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Slipknot, I'm worried about your blood pressure.
Seriously, I agree with you to a point. Again, I'm an old school control player but I think your definition of "control" might be a little more strict than mine. I tend to give some slack to discard and the like. But yes, if a deck is mostly "cast creature, turn sideways and win" then no, I don't consider it a control deck even if it has some control elements.
I had a straight card denial deck running Megrim and Liliana's Caress that I absolutely considered control even though there was no blue in it at all. But I also ran some Hypnotic Specters. So does that make it an aggro deck? Of course not.
Yeah, the lines get blurry sometimes. And yeah, everybody is going to have their own definition. I doubt we're ever going to have a universal agreement on what control is.
That's why I try not to get too wrapped up in these debates.
I think the only thing that is safe to say is that old school blue permission is dead and will probably be dead in all formats from now until the end of time except maybe in Legacy and Vintage.
Do I think modern is getting the short end of the stick in this area compared to other archetypes? Absolutely. Even without the artifact lands, Affinity is ridiculously busted. Even without Nacatl, zoo is powerful as all get go.
I'm not seeing control decks dominating modern. That is for sure.
And obviously, that is the way WotC wants it. You can't fight city hall.
So make the best of it. What that best is, I have no idea. I've given up playing blue a long time ago. It's just not worth the aggravation.
I hope, for your sake, that they take the banned list and burn most of it. Because IMO, it will make for a better format.
So, Slip, for a card to be a control card it cant be used in any other archtype? This isnt 1997 where cards are created for aggro, cards are created for control, cards are created for combo. The way they design their product has changed.
A control card can be used in another deck type, but its no longer a control card. For example a counterspell can be aggressive in the right decks. Just the same way a burn spell can be used to control the board. It is all about the role that the card plays in your deck. kinda like kitchen finks for another example. When used in aggro he is pretty aggressive, but when used in control he is really great defense.
I think we have to first figure out what control is as a majority before you can decide what is and isnt considered a control card. I am sorry to say, discard and tempo IS control in the format. You are going to have to live with that because I think we can all agree draw-go permission style control isnt viable in the format.
well control is what control always has been. Draw go hasn't been viable in years. Even in old extended draw go wasn't viable. Instead control had to become a hybrid of different control styles. This mix of draw-go, tappout, and black based control is what all recent control decks are.(or blue based control, and white based control)
White Based Control-"permanent control" uses cards in the vein of ghostly prison, mass removal, and some form of card draw.
Blue Based control-(aka draw go) counterspells and card draw. Sometimes things like evac.(or disc like this deck)
It is almost impossible to find these decks anymore.(I couldn't find a good example of white based control. Something similar to stax is pretty close.)I will mention that the colors on these really don't matter. For example Black decks can be white based control through the use of permanents and mass removal.
With that being said modern(not the format) control decks are a mix of 2(or 3) of these. For example 5cc from standard. If would often have a combination of mass removal, permanent based control(walls and runed halo) and counterspells.
Now on to Tempo decks. These decks are all modeled off of counterslivers from the past. They can look similar to control decks except for a few key differences.
1. They are aggressive. They tap out for small aggressive creatures early and then use counterspells to protect them.
2. they usually don't worry about card advantage. if you get one of these decks into the late game they are quite terrible.
Now jund is a weird sort of conglomeration. It doesn't really fit the mold of any established deck. It is most similar to the original rock, except it has a low curve. I chalk this up to the power level of goyf, bob, and BBE. Every one of these cards are extremely powerful. These goodstuff decks do occur sometimes and generally they are just lumped into the midrange category......but calling jund the same style of deck as a ramp deck is really silly if you ask me.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Now jund is a weird sort of conglomeration. It doesn't really fit the mold of any established deck. It is most similar to the original rock, except it has a low curve. I chalk this up to the power level of goyf, bob, and BBE. Every one of these cards are extremely powerful. These goodstuff decks do occur sometimes and generally they are just lumped into the midrange category......but calling jund the same style of deck as a ramp deck is really silly if you ask me.
I agree. My Jund deck has no ramp whatsoever and doesn't wait until mid game to beat the crap out of you. It is nothing like ramp. So yes, lumping it in with midrange ramp decks is ludicrous.
In fact, I'd go as far as to say that modern Jund more resembles zoo than it does ramp. It is a weird deck and in all the years of playing this game, I've never seen another deck like it...though I am sure somebody will point to one.
Jund is still a midrange deck; it has the same gameplan as Ramp if you look at the basics;
efficient beaters with small control elements.
Ramp would play Red boardwipes into something like Bogardan Hellkite in the TSP block STD; (deck lists from so long ago escape me, but you get the picture?); The point at which you're winning in the game is irrelevant when describing the archtype, i think. (I'd also like to point out that old Standard Jund ran Ramp sometimes)
Midrange is just a mixture of Aggro/Control cards; If you guys have ever made a cube you'd understand. There's no such thing as selecting cards for 'midrange'; you just put 'control' and 'aggro' cards in the cube in equal amounts and 'midrange' just happens to be an archtype. Tempo is basically utilizing control cards in an aggressive manner; such as using say Boomerang to bounce a land instead of bouncing a late creature, or something along those lines.
This argument over the definition of Tempo/Control/Aggro/Midrange and the like is just silly. You guys are all Magic players, you should understand what that means.
The gameplan of a 'Tempo' deck is hardly the same as that of a Control deck; them having similar cardpools is irrelevant. Just because a tempo player can use his SB'd Dispels to control the combo player doesn't make the deck he's playing 'Control'; it's still a tempo deck with a modified gameplan.
There's a stark difference in going into a G1 and knowing that you're 'control' than going in and saying you're 'Tempo' or 'Midrange' and changing your gameplan mid-game or in G2; Jund can play the control player when it suits them, too. That doesn't make Jund control AT ALL. But they'll probably play very similar to a GBR control deck in aggro matchups given a certain hand. A deck that IS labeled as control will however ALWAYS have to be playing a 'control' game no matter if it's G1/G2 or G3 (this is barring a transformative SB plan, of course...);
(end of my rigmarole...)
As of this point in this meta control is underdeveloped and needs to be developed. I think that's the point Slip is making, and it's largely true, at least I believe it.
Right now the most popular decks are tempo and midrange and combo; That is Jund/Delver-Tempo/Bunchofrandomcombodecks.
I think control strategies could definitely use a push.
I don't think we're getting AV or Jace back any time soon though. Even if those were options on the table, I don't know that they are really what we would want. Its easy to look at them and wish we had them, because had WotC not banned them, we would have them.
But honestly, those both would be getting played in non-control decks, and would very likely help them more than they would a "true control deck".
I think our best hope is for a new card sculpted to our needs or a reprint of something thats not currently modern legal in a way to make it modern legal.
I am not sure what those cards would even look like, but it seems like AV and Jace isn't it.
Slip, you seem to have spent a lot more time thinking about this than I have. What exactly is missing for the control you want to be playable? What cards would you want to fix the problem that don't at the same time go right in all sorts of non-control decks?
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I think control strategies could definitely use a push.
I don't think we're getting AV or Jace back any time soon though. Even if those were options on the table, I don't know that they are really what we would want. Its easy to look at them and wish we had them, because had WotC not banned them, we would have them.
But honestly, those both would be getting played in non-control decks, and would very likely help them more than they would a "true control deck".
I think our best hope is for a new card sculpted to our needs or a reprint of something thats not currently modern legal in a way to make it modern legal.
I am not sure what those cards would even look like, but it seems like AV and Jace isn't it.
Slip, you seem to have spent a lot more time thinking about this than I have. What exactly is missing for the control you want to be playable? What cards would you want to fix the problem that don't at the same time go right in all sorts of non-control decks?
to be fair in my testing before they announced the format(using the community cup ban list) jace and av were kinda meh. AV was somewhat important to some control styles because well what other blue card draw exist that doesn't set you back a turn or 2? Keeping tempo with counterspell based control decks is very underrated when 1 and 2 mana spells can effectively win the game for your opponent...
The card I miss the most is probably chrome mox. It allowed thirst for knowledge to be playable. It also gave "artifact based "control decks a chance to attempt to race aggro and combo. I know it wasn't uncommon for me to be in stage 3 by 4th or 5th turn with tron in the old extended.
So in general the problem is getting to stage 3, and being able to run general answers. It is also a power level thing. Control must do 2 things to beat jund.
1. draw more cards.(lots more cards like 10 per game)
2. be able to out "goodstuff" them with your extra cards.
I think twin or delver is actually hard to beat though. I have figured out the puzzle of how to beat delver deck. It is mostly cheap removal, and tons of card draw.(volcanic fallout and combust help :))
Twin might very well be the toughest deck for control to beat. Generally counterspells aren't very good against them. Remvoval and discard work best generally speaking. Then you can sideboard hate. Even with a decent set up playing from the draw is completely dependent on your opening hand.(you wont have the time to sculpt it)
Affinity is a pretty linear deck. Inkmoth nexus is a pain, but only with plating or if it can get several hits in. Hate cards are quite effective against affinity(the best of which is probably ancient grudge)
So essentially we just need a speed boost which will solve most of the problems tbqh. Chrome mox was the perfect card for this as it actually was better for us on turn 2 and 3 then it was turn 1.
ajani vengeant is pretty sweet against affinity also....might be good enough to actually be main deck.
gifts for snapcaster mage, mystical teachings, cruel ultimatum, wurmcoil engine. then laugh at your opponent. Now getting up to 9 mana.......
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
And therein lies the crux of why classic control just doesn't make sense today. It is so much easier to just beat somebody's face in than to try to grind out games whereas years ago, grinding was more patience than anything else. Eventually, you GOT there simply because of the power that control had.
And thank you for your contribution to the Vintage discussion. I'm still trying to clear the steam coming out of my ears.
Yep and here lies the problem. The power creep of creature cards has really killed Control decks in all formats.
What is the point of playing answer.dec when all the creatures are 2 times better than your answers.
Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Yep and here lies the problem. The power creep of creature cards has really killed Control decks in all formats.
What is the point of playing answer.dec when all the creatures are 2 times better than your answers.
Creature power creep is definitely a problem, but I think the fundamental issue is the acceleration.
Creature power creep resulted in nonsense like the 1G Tarmagoyf (should have been 2G at least). That killed creatureless control strategies pretty dead. But, "5cc", or Titan decks, as I like to call them (not necessarily the actual titan cards) should have still been viable. If low-range is chump aggro, like Affinity, then you have midrange decks (Zoo, Delver, Jund), and high-range decks (Wolf's Run, Solar Flare, etc.). Starting at the bottom, you tend to have higher numbers of cheap threats, with minimal answers/removal, which sometimes will actually double as threats (Lightning Bolt). As you progress upwards, you get more of a 50/50 ratio, with cards being played now that sometimes won't even affect board states at all (counterspells, targeted discard). The creatures start to curve up to 4cc. At the top level, you end up with creatures that are absolute bombs, with even 10 being a high number. You either are playing a deck full of answers and a very small threat number, or going proactive and packing accelerants to get to a slightly larger number of top-decked threats.
Creatures have always died easy to removal, with the larger creatures being an even worse investment. In the past, artifact mana made it so that you could play creatures higher on the mana curve with threat densities approaching that of the midrange strategies. Remove the fast mana, and you've invalidated most every card costing over 4 mana. You can't play these cards on turn 5-6 and expect anything but a chump aggro deck to fall over.
To me, that's the biggest disappointment. Even if creatureless "draw-go" control (read: chess as opposed to checkers) isn't an option due to the gradual dumbing-down inherent to anything spawned by capitalism, they still could allow for people to play with...better cards. Just look at the Standard decks that ran Titans at Worlds the last two years. EPIC. Topdecking Titans is infinitely more entertaining than watching people tap jank sideways and do the little push towards their opponent. I think WotC agrees to some extent, hence the second Titans reprint. If they would ban specific combo cards as they arise, and stop treating the card-hacks people come up with as legitimate strategies, they could allow us acceleration without Modern becoming a combo format.
Now, is ramp control? Not necessarily, but the two have great synergy, and most old-school control players will be more than happy if they can play control with several threats.
To answer the title of the thread, I think the role of control in Modern should be to keep the game interesting. This game was started as an intellectual game, with the idea being that two people could duel each other with customized decks packed full of creative strategies. It wasn't originally a creature-fest; there used to be loads of artifacts and enchantments, with the game's side-story revolving around that. Making this game have more of an appeal similar to Yugi-oh and pokemon is resulting in that entire aspect being suppressed. While it may seem fine to a lot of you guys that leaned toward aggro in the first place, you've got to understand that the lack of control and high-range strategies is one of the main reasons that everyone net-decks and individual mid-range decks can dominate. They can pack all the abilities they want into 2 and 3 drops, but a creature based game, especially a low-CMC one, can't carry the flare that made this game popular.
The reason I actually got back into this game was because the Civilization franchise crashed. The reason: console port. They dumbed the game down in a ridiculous way. Just like in this game, they made a game designed to be played over several days into something more friendly to other markets. The end result was a massive backlash and the lead designer for Civilization V getting canned. I hope WotC can reign in this trend, but if not, they may just find that when you water-down products designed for niche markets, you run the risk of sacrificing long-term viability and becoming dropped by the fickle main-stream consumer. I mean, if they don't keep things like Titans and high-range strategies coming in Standard (Innistrad block has none whatsoever), how much longer will people burn hundreds of dollars a year on this game? I'm pretty sure the more kiddy card games have the over-privileged children's market locked.
Creature power creep is definitely a problem, but I think the fundamental issue is the acceleration.
Creature power creep resulted in nonsense like the 1G Tarmagoyf (should have been 2G at least). That killed creatureless control strategies pretty dead. But, "5cc", or Titan decks, as I like to call them (not necessarily the actual titan cards) should have still been viable. If low-range is chump aggro, like Affinity, then you have midrange decks (Zoo, Delver, Jund), and high-range decks (Wolf's Run, Solar Flare, etc.). Starting at the bottom, you tend to have higher numbers of cheap threats, with minimal answers/removal, which sometimes will actually double as threats (Lightning Bolt). As you progress upwards, you get more of a 50/50 ratio, with cards being played now that sometimes won't even affect board states at all (counterspells, targeted discard). The creatures start to curve up to 4cc. At the top level, you end up with creatures that are absolute bombs, with even 10 being a high number. You either are playing a deck full of answers and a very small threat number, or going proactive and packing accelerants to get to a slightly larger number of top-decked threats.
Creatures have always died easy to removal, with the larger creatures being an even worse investment. In the past, artifact mana made it so that you could play creatures higher on the mana curve with threat densities approaching that of the midrange strategies. Remove the fast mana, and you've invalidated most every card costing over 4 mana. You can't play these cards on turn 5-6 and expect anything but a chump aggro deck to fall over.
To me, that's the biggest disappointment. Even if creatureless "draw-go" control (read: chess as opposed to checkers) isn't an option due to the gradual dumbing-down inherent to anything spawned by capitalism, they still could allow for people to play with...better cards. Just look at the Standard decks that ran Titans at Worlds the last two years. EPIC. Topdecking Titans is infinitely more entertaining than watching people tap jank sideways and do the little push towards their opponent. I think WotC agrees to some extent, hence the second Titans reprint. If they would ban specific combo cards as they arise, and stop treating the card-hacks people come up with as legitimate strategies, they could allow us acceleration without Modern becoming a combo format.
Now, is ramp control? Not necessarily, but the two have great synergy, and most old-school control players will be more than happy if they can play control with several threats.
This is the funniest, most delicious, most ironic, hypocracy I have heard in a while. You come here and, rightfully, complain that the game is being dumbed down through the nerfing of control via "this is a game that is profit driven and as such they must appeal to the lowest common denominator" factor. But then you complain about legitimate "card hacks" of combo decks. That makes you no different from all the noobs that cry over thier spells getting countered.
If you realy cared about this game being diverse and interesting you would want all the archetypes to exist.
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Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
So essentially we just need a speed boost which will solve most of the problems tbqh. Chrome mox was the perfect card for this as it actually was better for us on turn 2 and 3 then it was turn 1.
I am not and have never really been a combo player, but it seems like an accelerant is just going to be co-opted for use by combo, which is just going to push them faster than the "allowable combo speed" that WotC is imposing. That was the justification they gave for banning it anyway.
If they are wrong on that, is there some way to prove that?
If they are right on that, is there some way to design an accelerant that helps control but that wouldn't just be immediately co-opted to make combo faster?
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
"True control" is for people that want to win at all costs with the lesser variance possible while having more than 50% chances to win against everything. Those don't accept the randomness of the game.
This should be Pein's signature, so anyone who has the misfortune of reading one of his posts about control will have some amount of understanding about his worldview:
Aggro = only fair way to play
Combo = anti-aggro (by his definition 'unfair')
Control = anti-Magic the Gathering
Its true that chrome mox helps control to Mana leak turn 1 or DoJ turn 3.
But also helps to Deceiver exarch turn 2 Splinter twin turn 3, and imprinting a card doesn´t hurt twin too much.
Anyway, Jund can make a turn 1 BoB, turn 2 Liliana or turn 3 BBE, any of those plays kills control.
believe it or not spending two cards from their hand to get a slight speed upgrade is not really great in twin. (at least not for two cards)
The reason that deck is so weak to discard is it generally needs its whole hand to protect the combo. If it has to start pitching dispels for a mana ramp it can't protect itself from path, doom blade, ect,ect.
Also if you do the math it comes down to like a 22% chance of playing it on turn 1. Where mox really shines is when you play it on turn 2 or 3 so that spells like gifts ungiven, wrath, thirst for knowledge, tezz the seeker, ect are faster. It also speeds up controls hard counters against combo decks.
Unfortunately it makes you pretty weak to artifact hate.(for example)A couple years back I was playing with a UW gifts deck against zoo. I played one mox on turn 1, then played the other on turn 3. I tapped out for thirst for knowledge and both of them ate one ancient grudge. nice 4 for 1 lol.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Unfortunately it makes you pretty weak to artifact hate.(for example)A couple years back I was playing with a UW gifts deck against zoo. I played one mox on turn 1, then played the other on turn 3. I tapped out for thirst for knowledge and both of them ate one ancient grudge. nice 4 for 1 lol.
The prevalence of artifacts in Modern, and the corresponding prevalence of artifact hate, make Chrome Mox a lot worse for this very reason, like it originally was in Standard.
No, it didn't. I've never played Vintage but I can guarantee there is no deck with a 70% win rate because it would be banned.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
So let me get this straight. You've never played Vintage, you know nothing of the format, and you're calling me a liar?
When I played, who I played against, given MY personal competition, my deck had a 70% win rate.
Maybe my competition stunk. I don't know. But those are my stats.
To flat out call me a liar in a public forum is rude and inflammatory to boot.
Except for the part where cards in Vintage are not banned for power reasons so no decks can really be banned out of existence unless they absolutely require 2+ copies of a certain card to function. And there are definitely have been decks that are 80% against most of the field with some basically unwinnable matchups.
But as for the role of control in Modern, I kinda like that its going more towards Legacy where Tempo/Aggro-Control decks take the role of the slow grindy control decks. It makes games more interesting in my opinion because games are lot faster and the early game is more interesting since both sides are trying to apply pressure (although obviously one of the decks is the beatdown and the other is the control deck). I really think that traditional control decks are just obsolete now because the quality of creatures has gone up so much that playing few creatures doesn't seem as good anymore. Why bother trying to grind your opponent out when you can just play proactive cards like Delver and Snapcaster Mage? You're still in blue so you can still play your reactive cards (counterspells, removal, etc.) but at the same time you can be proactive and apply pressure to your opponent.
And therein lies the crux of why classic control just doesn't make sense today. It is so much easier to just beat somebody's face in than to try to grind out games whereas years ago, grinding was more patience than anything else. Eventually, you GOT there simply because of the power that control had.
And thank you for your contribution to the Vintage discussion. I'm still trying to clear the steam coming out of my ears.
This is coming form someone who has played Vintage and couldnt stand it. I hate how every game revolves around the opening play of the game. To me its broken Magic. Things that should have never been in the game in the first place. Just my opinion.
Even in Standard, it takes a very well-tuned list and a dedicated and careful pilot to successfully run a Control deck to Victory. (i.e. Ben Stark's list at Orlando) Even then, sometimes the very best players would rather run a deck that presents a clock and still has controlling aspects, rather than stalling until a late game wincondition (finally) takes over the game. Going to time is a very big deal in large tournaments, and Aggro-Control decks don't have that problem. Add into that mix the power creep we've seen in creatures the last several years, and Classic Control really does lose some of it's luster.
But it's not gone forever. And just because it doesn't exist right now doesn't mean the format is poorly structured. I feel like Modern is in a very healthy place right now, and as the season progresses I'm sure we will see it grow and change in positive ways. Classic Control will find it's place, maybe only briefly, but it will happen. But if it's not there right now, why force it? If Wizards sees the format is healthy but lacking in that archetype, they might even unban a few cards that support "True Control". But just because the "Rock" in RockPaperScissors doesn't look the same, doesn't mean the format is stagnant or lacking in diversity.
Top Tier:
Affinity (Aggro)
Twin (Combo)
Jund (Aggro-Control)
Thus, we still have balance.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I respect your opinion. A lot of people don't like Vintage. Personally, I love it. And yes, a lot of games come down to who has a FoW opening hand (or how many of them) but I've also played a lot of matches that were absolutely edge of your seat.
But back to modern.
You are right, conventional draw-go is dead.
But the bigger problem is that many people confuse permission with control. They are not the same thing...and that is where the lines get blurry.
In a true "permission" deck, essentially you are countering spells until you can drop your win-con.
In a "control" deck, you essentially keep the opponent from doing what he wants to do until you drop your win-con.
That type of "control" can take on any number of forms including removal, counters, planeswalkers and so on.
Personally, while I'm sorry to see straight permission go bye-bye, I concede that "control" still exists, even in standard, which is about as weak a format as you can get for permission decks.
In fact, this Friday, I'll be taking a deck that is all counters and removal to FNM. The win-con is a simple Sorin's Vengeance. This deck could easily be adapted to modern and possibly do quite well. It folds to BV decks, which is the problem. So my sideboard literally transforms this deck into an aggro deck for games 2 and 3.
There is no reason why you can't do something similar in modern.
Yeah, it sucks that counterspells of today aren't what they used to be. But that doesn't mean there aren't other ways to keep your opponent from doing what he wants to do.
Again...permission =/= control.
At least that's my opinion and 2 cents on the subject.
Except if wotc wouldn't have went ban nuts on the format control would have had a horse in the race for tier 1 contention. This format is so goddamn artificial. It is like buying a car with a 500hsp engine except you have a chip installed that forces you to put along like you have a four banger. You have all of that extra room to expand and innovate, but you can't because **** is banned. Give me back chrome mox. It is all I need. Then tron might be fast enough to compete.
cards are not control cards when in aggro decks. Is suicide black control? it runs a lot of discard so now it is control right....?:facepalm:
This is a fallacious argument and it has no purpose in this thread so it is spam. Please only post if you have ideas, potential decklist, or something else that actually contributed to the thread.
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Albert Einstein
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I think we have to first figure out what control is as a majority before you can decide what is and isnt considered a control card. I am sorry to say, discard and tempo IS control in the format. You are going to have to live with that because I think we can all agree draw-go permission style control isnt viable in the format.
Slipknot, I'm worried about your blood pressure.
Seriously, I agree with you to a point. Again, I'm an old school control player but I think your definition of "control" might be a little more strict than mine. I tend to give some slack to discard and the like. But yes, if a deck is mostly "cast creature, turn sideways and win" then no, I don't consider it a control deck even if it has some control elements.
I had a straight card denial deck running Megrim and Liliana's Caress that I absolutely considered control even though there was no blue in it at all. But I also ran some Hypnotic Specters. So does that make it an aggro deck? Of course not.
Yeah, the lines get blurry sometimes. And yeah, everybody is going to have their own definition. I doubt we're ever going to have a universal agreement on what control is.
That's why I try not to get too wrapped up in these debates.
I think the only thing that is safe to say is that old school blue permission is dead and will probably be dead in all formats from now until the end of time except maybe in Legacy and Vintage.
Do I think modern is getting the short end of the stick in this area compared to other archetypes? Absolutely. Even without the artifact lands, Affinity is ridiculously busted. Even without Nacatl, zoo is powerful as all get go.
I'm not seeing control decks dominating modern. That is for sure.
And obviously, that is the way WotC wants it. You can't fight city hall.
So make the best of it. What that best is, I have no idea. I've given up playing blue a long time ago. It's just not worth the aggravation.
I hope, for your sake, that they take the banned list and burn most of it. Because IMO, it will make for a better format.
Again, it's just my opinion.
A control card can be used in another deck type, but its no longer a control card. For example a counterspell can be aggressive in the right decks. Just the same way a burn spell can be used to control the board. It is all about the role that the card plays in your deck. kinda like kitchen finks for another example. When used in aggro he is pretty aggressive, but when used in control he is really great defense.
well control is what control always has been. Draw go hasn't been viable in years. Even in old extended draw go wasn't viable. Instead control had to become a hybrid of different control styles. This mix of draw-go, tappout, and black based control is what all recent control decks are.(or blue based control, and white based control)
Black Based Control-discard, spot removal and card draw
White Based Control-"permanent control" uses cards in the vein of ghostly prison, mass removal, and some form of card draw.
Blue Based control-(aka draw go) counterspells and card draw. Sometimes things like evac.(or disc like this deck)
It is almost impossible to find these decks anymore.(I couldn't find a good example of white based control. Something similar to stax is pretty close.)I will mention that the colors on these really don't matter. For example Black decks can be white based control through the use of permanents and mass removal.
With that being said modern(not the format) control decks are a mix of 2(or 3) of these. For example 5cc from standard. If would often have a combination of mass removal, permanent based control(walls and runed halo) and counterspells.
Now on to Tempo decks. These decks are all modeled off of counterslivers from the past. They can look similar to control decks except for a few key differences.
1. They are aggressive. They tap out for small aggressive creatures early and then use counterspells to protect them.
2. they usually don't worry about card advantage. if you get one of these decks into the late game they are quite terrible.
Now jund is a weird sort of conglomeration. It doesn't really fit the mold of any established deck. It is most similar to the original rock, except it has a low curve. I chalk this up to the power level of goyf, bob, and BBE. Every one of these cards are extremely powerful. These goodstuff decks do occur sometimes and generally they are just lumped into the midrange category......but calling jund the same style of deck as a ramp deck is really silly if you ask me.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I agree. My Jund deck has no ramp whatsoever and doesn't wait until mid game to beat the crap out of you. It is nothing like ramp. So yes, lumping it in with midrange ramp decks is ludicrous.
In fact, I'd go as far as to say that modern Jund more resembles zoo than it does ramp. It is a weird deck and in all the years of playing this game, I've never seen another deck like it...though I am sure somebody will point to one.
efficient beaters with small control elements.
Ramp would play Red boardwipes into something like Bogardan Hellkite in the TSP block STD; (deck lists from so long ago escape me, but you get the picture?); The point at which you're winning in the game is irrelevant when describing the archtype, i think. (I'd also like to point out that old Standard Jund ran Ramp sometimes)
Midrange is just a mixture of Aggro/Control cards; If you guys have ever made a cube you'd understand. There's no such thing as selecting cards for 'midrange'; you just put 'control' and 'aggro' cards in the cube in equal amounts and 'midrange' just happens to be an archtype. Tempo is basically utilizing control cards in an aggressive manner; such as using say Boomerang to bounce a land instead of bouncing a late creature, or something along those lines.
This argument over the definition of Tempo/Control/Aggro/Midrange and the like is just silly. You guys are all Magic players, you should understand what that means.
The gameplan of a 'Tempo' deck is hardly the same as that of a Control deck; them having similar cardpools is irrelevant. Just because a tempo player can use his SB'd Dispels to control the combo player doesn't make the deck he's playing 'Control'; it's still a tempo deck with a modified gameplan.
There's a stark difference in going into a G1 and knowing that you're 'control' than going in and saying you're 'Tempo' or 'Midrange' and changing your gameplan mid-game or in G2; Jund can play the control player when it suits them, too. That doesn't make Jund control AT ALL. But they'll probably play very similar to a GBR control deck in aggro matchups given a certain hand. A deck that IS labeled as control will however ALWAYS have to be playing a 'control' game no matter if it's G1/G2 or G3 (this is barring a transformative SB plan, of course...);
(end of my rigmarole...)
As of this point in this meta control is underdeveloped and needs to be developed. I think that's the point Slip is making, and it's largely true, at least I believe it.
Right now the most popular decks are tempo and midrange and combo; That is Jund/Delver-Tempo/Bunchofrandomcombodecks.
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I don't think we're getting AV or Jace back any time soon though. Even if those were options on the table, I don't know that they are really what we would want. Its easy to look at them and wish we had them, because had WotC not banned them, we would have them.
But honestly, those both would be getting played in non-control decks, and would very likely help them more than they would a "true control deck".
I think our best hope is for a new card sculpted to our needs or a reprint of something thats not currently modern legal in a way to make it modern legal.
I am not sure what those cards would even look like, but it seems like AV and Jace isn't it.
Slip, you seem to have spent a lot more time thinking about this than I have. What exactly is missing for the control you want to be playable? What cards would you want to fix the problem that don't at the same time go right in all sorts of non-control decks?
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
to be fair in my testing before they announced the format(using the community cup ban list) jace and av were kinda meh. AV was somewhat important to some control styles because well what other blue card draw exist that doesn't set you back a turn or 2? Keeping tempo with counterspell based control decks is very underrated when 1 and 2 mana spells can effectively win the game for your opponent...
The card I miss the most is probably chrome mox. It allowed thirst for knowledge to be playable. It also gave "artifact based "control decks a chance to attempt to race aggro and combo. I know it wasn't uncommon for me to be in stage 3 by 4th or 5th turn with tron in the old extended.
So in general the problem is getting to stage 3, and being able to run general answers. It is also a power level thing. Control must do 2 things to beat jund.
1. draw more cards.(lots more cards like 10 per game)
2. be able to out "goodstuff" them with your extra cards.
I think twin or delver is actually hard to beat though. I have figured out the puzzle of how to beat delver deck. It is mostly cheap removal, and tons of card draw.(volcanic fallout and combust help :))
Twin might very well be the toughest deck for control to beat. Generally counterspells aren't very good against them. Remvoval and discard work best generally speaking. Then you can sideboard hate. Even with a decent set up playing from the draw is completely dependent on your opening hand.(you wont have the time to sculpt it)
Affinity is a pretty linear deck. Inkmoth nexus is a pain, but only with plating or if it can get several hits in. Hate cards are quite effective against affinity(the best of which is probably ancient grudge)
So essentially we just need a speed boost which will solve most of the problems tbqh. Chrome mox was the perfect card for this as it actually was better for us on turn 2 and 3 then it was turn 1.
ajani vengeant is pretty sweet against affinity also....might be good enough to actually be main deck.
gifts for snapcaster mage, mystical teachings, cruel ultimatum, wurmcoil engine. then laugh at your opponent. Now getting up to 9 mana.......
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Yep and here lies the problem. The power creep of creature cards has really killed Control decks in all formats.
What is the point of playing answer.dec when all the creatures are 2 times better than your answers.
Modern:
Something new every week
Legacy:
Something new everyweek
Creature power creep is definitely a problem, but I think the fundamental issue is the acceleration.
Creature power creep resulted in nonsense like the 1G Tarmagoyf (should have been 2G at least). That killed creatureless control strategies pretty dead. But, "5cc", or Titan decks, as I like to call them (not necessarily the actual titan cards) should have still been viable. If low-range is chump aggro, like Affinity, then you have midrange decks (Zoo, Delver, Jund), and high-range decks (Wolf's Run, Solar Flare, etc.). Starting at the bottom, you tend to have higher numbers of cheap threats, with minimal answers/removal, which sometimes will actually double as threats (Lightning Bolt). As you progress upwards, you get more of a 50/50 ratio, with cards being played now that sometimes won't even affect board states at all (counterspells, targeted discard). The creatures start to curve up to 4cc. At the top level, you end up with creatures that are absolute bombs, with even 10 being a high number. You either are playing a deck full of answers and a very small threat number, or going proactive and packing accelerants to get to a slightly larger number of top-decked threats.
Creatures have always died easy to removal, with the larger creatures being an even worse investment. In the past, artifact mana made it so that you could play creatures higher on the mana curve with threat densities approaching that of the midrange strategies. Remove the fast mana, and you've invalidated most every card costing over 4 mana. You can't play these cards on turn 5-6 and expect anything but a chump aggro deck to fall over.
To me, that's the biggest disappointment. Even if creatureless "draw-go" control (read: chess as opposed to checkers) isn't an option due to the gradual dumbing-down inherent to anything spawned by capitalism, they still could allow for people to play with...better cards. Just look at the Standard decks that ran Titans at Worlds the last two years. EPIC. Topdecking Titans is infinitely more entertaining than watching people tap jank sideways and do the little push towards their opponent. I think WotC agrees to some extent, hence the second Titans reprint. If they would ban specific combo cards as they arise, and stop treating the card-hacks people come up with as legitimate strategies, they could allow us acceleration without Modern becoming a combo format.
Now, is ramp control? Not necessarily, but the two have great synergy, and most old-school control players will be more than happy if they can play control with several threats.
The reason I actually got back into this game was because the Civilization franchise crashed. The reason: console port. They dumbed the game down in a ridiculous way. Just like in this game, they made a game designed to be played over several days into something more friendly to other markets. The end result was a massive backlash and the lead designer for Civilization V getting canned. I hope WotC can reign in this trend, but if not, they may just find that when you water-down products designed for niche markets, you run the risk of sacrificing long-term viability and becoming dropped by the fickle main-stream consumer. I mean, if they don't keep things like Titans and high-range strategies coming in Standard (Innistrad block has none whatsoever), how much longer will people burn hundreds of dollars a year on this game? I'm pretty sure the more kiddy card games have the over-privileged children's market locked.
This is the funniest, most delicious, most ironic, hypocracy I have heard in a while. You come here and, rightfully, complain that the game is being dumbed down through the nerfing of control via "this is a game that is profit driven and as such they must appeal to the lowest common denominator" factor. But then you complain about legitimate "card hacks" of combo decks. That makes you no different from all the noobs that cry over thier spells getting countered.
If you realy cared about this game being diverse and interesting you would want all the archetypes to exist.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
I am not and have never really been a combo player, but it seems like an accelerant is just going to be co-opted for use by combo, which is just going to push them faster than the "allowable combo speed" that WotC is imposing. That was the justification they gave for banning it anyway.
If they are wrong on that, is there some way to prove that?
If they are right on that, is there some way to design an accelerant that helps control but that wouldn't just be immediately co-opted to make combo faster?
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
This should be Pein's signature, so anyone who has the misfortune of reading one of his posts about control will have some amount of understanding about his worldview:
Aggro = only fair way to play
Combo = anti-aggro (by his definition 'unfair')
Control = anti-Magic the Gathering
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of [High~Light Studios] for the awesome sig.
believe it or not spending two cards from their hand to get a slight speed upgrade is not really great in twin. (at least not for two cards)
The reason that deck is so weak to discard is it generally needs its whole hand to protect the combo. If it has to start pitching dispels for a mana ramp it can't protect itself from path, doom blade, ect,ect.
Also if you do the math it comes down to like a 22% chance of playing it on turn 1. Where mox really shines is when you play it on turn 2 or 3 so that spells like gifts ungiven, wrath, thirst for knowledge, tezz the seeker, ect are faster. It also speeds up controls hard counters against combo decks.
Unfortunately it makes you pretty weak to artifact hate.(for example)A couple years back I was playing with a UW gifts deck against zoo. I played one mox on turn 1, then played the other on turn 3. I tapped out for thirst for knowledge and both of them ate one ancient grudge. nice 4 for 1 lol.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Mox is also terrible in Jund. It's one of the worst cards you could flip for cascade.
If T2 Lilli and T3 BBE kills control why doesn't jund play Noble Hierarch? A card that is actually okay to cascade into?
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The prevalence of artifacts in Modern, and the corresponding prevalence of artifact hate, make Chrome Mox a lot worse for this very reason, like it originally was in Standard.
Thanks to Spiderboy4 of [High~Light Studios] for the awesome sig.