This thread hasd every single one that I was going to highlight, whether or not the poster intended to share a claim or their opinion...but here is a crazy claim that no one has highlighted...
Modern is killing Legacy
^ that is one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard.
Whats more likely to happen (power creep being what it is) is that both modern and legacy will reach a point where the decks are virtually similar and wizards will simply collapse the 2 formats.
Whats more likely to happen (power creep being what it is) is that both modern and legacy will reach a point where the decks are virtually similar and wizards will simply collapse the 2 formats.
I think they both have their place.
If anything (and I do mean ANYTHING) they will collapse extended into this.
I did see an extended 2 man fire the other day tho. True Story.
UUU Talrand, Sky Summoner // (W/U)(W/U)(W/U) Grand Arbiter Augustin IV // RRR Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker // (R/G)(R/G)(R/G) Wort, the Raidmother // URG Riku of Two Reflections // RWU Ruhan of the Fomori
Quote from Mark Rosewater »
In response to your Lightning Blast, I'll eat this burrito.
Quote from slipknot72102 »
This is why I started playing magic in the first place. It wasn't PT aspirations just making noobs cry by doing things that are perfectly fair.
This thread hasd every single one that I was going to highlight, whether or not the poster intended to share a claim or their opinion...but here is a crazy claim that no one has highlighted...
Modern is killing Legacy
^ that is one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard.
Modern wont kill Legacy, the reprint policy will.
I think extended was already announced to be dead and Modern is to replace that format.
At the rest babbling about reprints, Goyf would have to be reprinted in the core set and RTR to get under $50. I doubt it would ever get under $30. Even if they reprint all the hot older staples from the older sets, they are going to have to do it a again in a few years to help out those new players that will have starter.
Well, for me. I was really excited about Modern when it was first announced. I was hoping for an eternal format, separate from Legacy to replace the horrid "new extended" that WoTC thought was a good idea. The two main things that appealed to me about Modern: 1.) Bring back old favorites from standard that aren't quite viable in Legacy, but would be good in Modern. 2.) I love to brew competitive new decks on the other hand.
When the initial ban list came out. I was like: "Wow... ok, these X decks aren't viable, but that's good, Let the brewing commence!". Then, after the banning of all good 1 mana cantrips and Rite of Flame, I thought: "Well, ponder and preordain is needed for control, so that's weird. I do understand Rite of flame (which killed more decks than just combo, like AiR)". So I then rolled with it. The final straw was Wild Nacatl...
People do say crazy things about Modern, Legacy and standard for that matter.
Do I think it's killing Legacy? no.
Do I think Modern is a bad format? no.
Do I think Modern will die? no.
Modern, even Legacy (depending on the deck) is cheaper than standard now, so that's bull.
Do I hear crazy things about Modern? yes, just as much as you
With all that being said, there is some truth in that "it's not a good sign when you have to start banning creatures that don't do much beside swing." If you look at the Legacy ban list, the only creatures that are banned enable ridiculous combos.
There is some truth to the theory that control is weaker. Maybe not weak, but weaker. Nacatl is my case-in-point. Tron also seemed to easily replace cloudpost decks, so I don't know what they were trying to accomplish by banning that... Tron is indeed one of the better decks in the format and a control deck, but my point is, it's one of the only viable ones.
The format is waaaay more paper-rock-scissors than Legacy (sometimes rock beats paper in Legacy hah!). I just think it will get better once the card pool gets larger and some unbannings take place.
I don't know. Every time I go to large events, SCG, ABU, or TrollAndToad, countless other vendors always have Legacy staples for sale. The whole supply-demand thing is a crazy claim about Legacy lol! IMO.
I don't know. Every time I go to large events, SCG, ABU, or TrollAndToad, countless other vendors always have Legacy staples for sale. The whole supply-demand thing is a crazy claim about Legacy lol! IMO.
At what price though? The less cards in the pool the higher the price goes. According to most of the bigger card dealers, they profess there is only 25-30% of those staples on the no reprint list in America. The other 75-80% are spread among the UK and Japan. Add in all the cards that have been damaged and thrown out. The card pool is shrinking. Just because some of the bigger sellers can afford to invest large chunks of their monies in the staples doesnt mean they are any easier to come by.
I disagree with this. I believe Modern to be more rock/paper/scissors/lizard/Spock.
There's a kernel of truth in the complains about Modern being too matchup dependent - A ton of matches end up being completely decided for game 1 just based on archetypes, while the "real" games start after game 1. Jund and caw-blade are some of the only "play fair" decks in the meta, and while every archetype is subject to a little hate, there's plenty of non-interactive matchups like affinity vs. splintertwin, or tron vs. storm.
This is definitely a problem that will get fixed as the card pool expands and we see more reprints of certain staples, but it certainly puts too much of a focus on meta-gaming the field as opposed to tuning an archetype.
At what price though? The less cards in the pool the higher the price goes. According to most of the bigger card dealers, they profess there is only 25-30% of those staples on the no reprint list in America. The other 75-80% are spread among the UK and Japan. Add in all the cards that have been damaged and thrown out. The card pool is shrinking. Just because some of the bigger sellers can afford to invest large chunks of their monies in the staples doesnt mean they are any easier to come by.
There is probably some truth to that. I just don't trust the large vendors. They tend to fudge the numbers a bit to abuse the secondary market. "Get these now!!! There are only like 2 left!!" Even though they might be hoarding some or know of places to get more.
I know of Vendors, that are true card shops. They stay off the grid and hate Internet vendors like SCG, etc. It is entirely easier to haggle/trade with them to get powerful Legacy staples for cheaper than the "best buys" of the magic card world.
^^^ I've only met a few people that I know to not be full of it though. As far as Internet vendors, despite their prices when you absolutely want something delivered with no hassle SCG is probably the only place I would recommend. Otherwise, there's one of those guys that has everything in all communities. Larger communities like cities usually have more than one.
I'm not sure where to start with this Nid, so I'll just go top to bottom and hope that I don't ramble too badly;
So, you preambled your counter argument with you completely contradicting it; You're not off to a very good start
Not hardly. Maybe you could try to explain which part you do not understand so I can elaborate on it. Magic Econ doesn't work as linearly as you are suggesting. Card prices are determined strictly by version and condition. If what you were saying were even partially true, dual lands would not vary from around $60 to upwards of $1200. Any re-print of Goyf would be in a different style and border as the original, this would separate the two as no one would want to have the odd one of of a different version. Magic players are fickle in the editions they use. The older players would obviously default to going after the oldest versions they can find in the best condition. Those prices would remain high for that reason alone.
I hope you realize that the '10$ goyfs' i was hypothetically talking about were to have come from a 'modern staples reprint set' ala Chronicles Modern or something along those lines; I think you completely took me out of context, but I'm going to keep picking apart your counter argument just to give you the benefit of the doubt;
You made the statement, live with it. If you want to back down from that commentary, feel free. I wasn't the one making felicitous arguments based upon a non-durable non-flexible commodity.
You're saying that more people wouldn't play Modern if it were a cheaper format to get into? Say if there existed a box of cards that Wizards sold for 100 dollars with 1 of each shock, a goyf, and a bob guaranteed with some other chaff thrown in the mix? (UC staples, etc?)
I think that's one hell of a leap of logic.
And here's why;
Too bad the point you used doesn't apply to the Legacy staples I deal with. Unless FOW was reprinted for Modern use that is. Logic Leaps only exist if they based on unrelated topics that have never been heard of before. This is a topic that is well observed in Magic every-time they print a Judge foil version of a card. The demand for it drives the price up. Printing new Goyf's would drive everyone that could afford the original to scoop up as many copies of them as possible to store away. Up the price would go still. Only a few of those people would go after the new version.
I'm not sure how that applies to a reprint set of Modern only cards; But, I'm glad you're making money off of your investments
It applies because most of the cards seeing a lot of play in Modern are either staples in Legacy or are seeing play in Standard at this very moment. The Legacy staples I deal with are removed from the equation, and thus their prices can fluctuate at much greater frequency, as in every season. Modern staples do not have this luxury, because they are staples in other formats. Any re-prints that will exist will be put into the same time and frame as the already existing Legacy and Standard demand. The prices might go down, but it will only be temporary as the supply get's all gobbled up again. There is no long-term relief possible for Modern outside of the re-prints of the lands. This is the only re-print that would do any good over the longer-term. That is if they are not re-printed in Standard though. Re-prints with them in Standard will drive the prices even higher.
Sounds like a veritable 'friend with benefits' ;). He'd be handy to have around to playtest or simply borrow an entire 75. I'm glad that you know someone with such a huge amount of legacy resources. But again, this hardly applies to anything I've said.
I think I would be able to find them at every brick and mortar store, online store, and Target/Wal-Mart in the United States given that they're a sealed product; I think the 'legacy players like yourself' would be hard-pressed to come up with enough money to completely control the market on a sealed product printed by WotC. But, then again, you could won the Mega Millions last week and I would be none the wiser.
I know I am not alone when I say that there are many people like me that make more than the average Magic player that could easily walk into any store and buy them out of everything to either flip it, or store it away. There are a lot of people like this every where. That you haven't ran into any of these people says more to me about your inter-personal skills than anything else you've said here. There is a rather large segment of Legacy players that have an extensive amount of regular cash flow from dealing in Magic cards.
This game is going on 20 years now, some of us have been playing that long.
Did i ever once in my post say that "I deserve to be able to buy playsets of Goyfs at 40$ a set at my leisure" ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm quite sure that I did not.
See that's typically, you stated that you think everyone should be able to afford a playset of any card they desired. Which in itself is a ridiculous statement. Everyone that is playing this game at this level, can afford any card they want. It's a matter of saving your money and/or trading up into them. If you literally have no money to spend on Magic at all, then you should probably be spending your time looking for a job or something better with your time. This is a game and hobby for some of us. It is not a necessity
You are correct though, you didn't say you yourself deserve to buy a playset at $40 at your leisure. The point still remains, the cost of entry for Magic has always been this high. Always.Which in reference to this post:
I dislike the notion that people are unable to play certain decks due to price. I think overall it would lead to a bigger format (in terms of number of players); and a much more competitive meta at all venues; which promotes play at the 'pro' level. Which is good for the game overall.
makes my point clear. If you are not willing to drop the coin for the cards in the format that actually cost the money and have the rarity and power level that some of are willing to spend on, then no you do not deserve to have them. It's not about the money, it's about the willingness to actually save and work your way to a goal. You do not deserve to play a format just because you want to without putting the effort and time into it. There are a lot of people on here that have spent an extra-ordinary amount of their personal time making this format what it is. Blippy is one of those people, and it's quite poor for some one to come in saying that those people that spent their time and money on those cards do not deserve the amount they would ask for them on trade or sale to help another person enter the format.
Magic the Gathering is a hobby; it's a card game. It isn't an investment; Wizards of the Coast has one policy for people that want to collect cards and have those cards maintain their value; it's called the Reserve List; None of the Modern Staples happen to be on it (this is one of the reasons they made the format). If you would like to have your investment protected, buy/sell/trade cards that don't stand the chance of being reprinted.
They made the format because people were asking for it, for that reason alone. WOTC was ignoring Over-Extended for quite some time before they decided to get on the bandwagon.
Please refrain from tell me how to invest, it's embarrassing to hear it from people that do not even understand multivariate economics. See the first reply to your comment in this post.
I think you're setting a double standard for yourself when you say (wrongly) that I'm owed cards at cheaper prices; when you believe that you are owed a safe profitable investment in the cards that you've invested in; especially considering that they're more than likely going to be reprinted in some way or another.
Quit assuming so much about me. You do not know me, or know what I invest in. Magic is a crappy investment from the beginning because there is no real return on it. The real ROI on all of these cards is much lower than the rate of inflation, you'd have to be bad at math to think otherwise... This is merely a hobby for me, and if I can grab cards to hold for a few weeks/months to flip for a profit I do so. Otherwise I look at this like some of you might look at going to the movies, or whatever it is that kids do these days. It's pure entertainment for me.
If you'd like verification, I'd be more than happy to take pictures of my collection. But, I assure you I own a playset of Goyfs, Vendillion Cliques, and several other high dollar modern staples; as well as enough trade fodder to trade for other ones that I don't own at this point in time (most notably, Shocks and Bobs).
Do you really want to get into a Magic-peen sizing contest here?
I'm sorry, that wasn't my claim; again you're putting words in my mouth. If the expensive staples were made cheaper and more available through a Modern Chronicles I'm willing to bet that several more local MTG communities around the world would have increased Modern tournament attendance as well as more people running around with competitive decks; That is what I mean when I say that the environment will become more competitive. And by promoting play at the 'pro' level I mean that if more people were have access to competitive decks than GP/PTQ attendance would go up.
This is just simply not true. Attendance goes up with interactive formats. Right now the decks in the format are extremely diverse, and aside from one really difficult to deal with deck, there are no really expensive decks that are over-represented. Aggro-Loam is the only real deck that has expensive staples that's hard to deal with. Every other deck plays mostly Standard legal stuff, or just isn't that expensive. RDW takes events often, so do decks like Faeries and Caw-Blade. None of those cards are that expensive. Heck even Mono-W control has put up numbers, and that deck is pretty cheap. No one is being closed out of the format in the slightest.
But, please, tell me more about the 'scrubs' you see running around with expensive decks; I'm sure you're a much better player than they are
I wouldn't know, I haven't played them. Most of them do not play Modern, and the few that do I have never played them or seen them play. Get off your ego trip here, and then maybe you'll understand why I responded the way I did to you. I know you likely won't, and continue to view me as an evil, vain, egotistical a$$**** though. The economics of Magic do not work the way you think they do, and the price of a card has very little effect on the turn-out or the shape of the Meta. That is solely done by the players themselves.
I'm sure it was if you read it with the discerning eye of a Fox News caster.
Next time I'd suggest reading the content of the thread instead of seeing one post and taking it completely out of context; it'll keep you from looking like an ass.
Oh let me guess, now I'm just another evil, Right-Wing, racist Republican right? Give me a f**king break kid. I read the thread, and it was full of much of the same idealistic nonsense with people ignoring why card prices are the way they are. Look at the avatar, do I even resemble the sort of nonsense you are spewing here? I did read the thread, you should look back at the first page.
Re-prints would bring in more people for sure, but those prices would not stay down as everyone entering the format would push them right back up again with the rest of us with expendable income soaking up the left overs or grabbing up every spare copy under the sun we can find. Then we'll be right back here with you still whining for reprints, and me still pointing out that it will not do anything for the format. Innovation will stagnate even more than it has already, because everyone will have their 4xGoyf's, and the other decks in the format that do not run the staples will never see play. Magic players are too prone to Groupthink for that to ever work.
Then again I must be blowing smoke up everyone's rear. It's not like you'd not just run 4xGoyf's if you are running U and G together. If you're U and not a big Control deck you must have 4X Clique or Snapcaster. What about if you are running a big control deck, it has to be Teachings or Gift's right? It's called Groupthink. The problem with the lack of innovation and high prices is not the limited market, it's the limited players. It's the players that set those prices because they all clamor for specific cards like lemmings.
And we laugh at people that walk in, pull out a cell phone and spin an outrageous price at us for a card we are trading for.
We laugh at people who walk in, pull out a cell phone and try to pretend that a card isn't worth as much as it really is.
Do I always agree with internet pricing? No, but it's far more consistent than whatever individuals would make it out to be, you and I included.
Also, I quit standard because at the rate the meta game was changing and new decks arose, I found I was spending more money trying to put a tier 1 deck together. Not to hate on standard or anything, because its' a great format, but the format is always changing which means you're always going to be trying to build new decks and spend money on them. If you build a deck in an eternal format, that's it. Once it's built, it's done, and unless you built a deck that doesn't do well competitively, you don't have to build another one. The good cards from the deck won't rotate out, and new cards that get printed probably won't end up in your deck, let alone make you spend lots of money to add them to your already-existing deck.
This might be a crazy claim in the opposite direction, but I wouldn't be surprised if modern costs less than standard to play, as long as you aren't playing modern jund. Hell, I'm playing modern jund without goyfs, and I've only spent about $75 for it acquiring everything else through trade (and luckily got all 3 lilly's in packs).
Goyf dropping from $100 to $10 would mean no one would sell their Goyf's that they likely paid over $50 a piece for. That means it would be even harder to get Goyf for those of you that did not already have him. IE you'd have even fewer copies available on the market, because people like me would be buying every copy I could find. I would not feel bad for it either, because people like you asked for it. You get what you deserve when you do not understand the economics behind what you are asking for.
What are you smoking? If they get reprinted and drop to $10, then it wouldn't matter if you don't sell them back to the vendors anyways. They got reprinted, and are now $10! People would be busting a ton of the new set (like they always do). There would not be an issue with availability.
Re-prints would bring in more people for sure, but those prices would not stay down as everyone entering the format would push them right back up again with the rest of us with expendable income soaking up the left overs or grabbing up every spare copy under the sun we can find. Then we'll be right back here with you still whining for reprints, and me still pointing out that it will not do anything for the format. Innovation will stagnate even more than it has already, because everyone will have their 4xGoyf's, and the other decks in the format that do not run the staples will never see play. Magic players are too prone to Groupthink for that to ever work.
We are very much so aware of this effect but its not as regular as you would like to pretend it to be. And lots of cards, when reprinted stay at a lower price for long times. Sol Ring is a perfect example. Before the commander reprinting you were not going to be able to find a copy for less than $15. Now days, after commander reprint? You can easily find many copies selling for $6-10. Sure they may go back up, but that's gonna take awhile, and in the meantime people that couldn't afford them before are now buying them for $8.
And yet again you contradict your self... Reprints would bring more people, BUT they won't do anything for the format (like bring in more people).
I could go on and on pointing out the absurd things you have said in this thread alone, but that would take too much time.
If you're a new player, and want a bolt, you're probably going to get the cheapest one to play.
If you're a collector, you would pay more for a specific not-so-common printing for your collection.
If 'goyf or shocks were reprinted, while their prices would drop, they would still retain a significant value as a "collector's item", and would not become "worthless".
Never said they would become "worthless". Never said the original wouldn't maintain value for the most part. But we are not talking about for the purpose of collecting, we are talking people wanting reprints for play reasons. Either way you're talking about something that not even the point. The point is that his claims are ludicrous and contradict themselves on many levels.
FACT: If goyf was reprinted with a different (or even the same) border, we would see that version be a lower price than the original, not to mention the people who get it from just busting a pack. This would go a long way to reducing the barrier of entry into the format. This is not debatable, and anyone who believe that cheaper, more available staples would not have impact on tournament attendance is whacked. Anyone who believes that reprints would not alleviate availability issues is also whacked in the head. Before they reprinted Lightning Bolt almost no one I knew, save for old-schoolers and collectors/legacy players, had Lightning bolt. Now? I know very few players that don't have 4.
Not to mention his terrible "I have bought these and want them to sell them for X and its not "fair" for the value to drop because you want reprints because I have invested in them blah blah blah". He has just as much of an entitlement issue as the people he accuses of having an entitlement complex, just in a different form.
If you're a new player, and want a bolt, you're probably going to get the cheapest one to play.
If you're a collector, you would pay more for a specific not-so-common printing for your collection.
If 'goyf or shocks were reprinted, while their prices would drop, they would still retain a significant value as a "collector's item", and would not become "worthless".
There is enough room for both types of people. The problems come when Wotc caters to one or the other exclusively<cough> reprint policy<cough> . Wotc cant ruin the game play because of the collectors, as well as destroying the collections due to game play needs.
I personally am a player first and foremost. I have traded alpha and beta cards at extremely high prices to fill voids in my playsets of cards. I know not everyone sees it the same way I do, but in the end they are only pieces of cardboard...
I think modern format is great. Any deck winning on turn two or three with any consistency sounds like a degenerate format. Not to say that legacy isn't fun. I just enjoy building into a format that has potential to have new decks come in and disrupt strategies. Getting blown out by blood moon or trying a find a way to deal with infinite attackers with counterspell back up creates a fun game. In legacy when you're on the draw and your opponent follows up his turn one city a brass with turn two attack for lethal via dredging the yard doesn't seem as cool as troning out an emrakul or sending in the team of pricy Tarmogoyfs. The format will contune to gain popularity if the ptqs and gps keep hosting it.
Not trying to mini-mod or anything, but there's already an official thread for complaints about the price of tarmogoyf here.
To be honest, I'd say wizards reprinting goyf is a crazy claim, but I guess that means I'm crazy cuz I'm hoping they'll reprint goyf.
And as far as collector value goes, the future sight goyf would definitely be worth more than the new goyf if there ever is one, however, both would still be expensive, and I can't see the future sight one being that much more seeing that it's only five years old. Same goes for shock lands and the like.
Guys, the crazy claims are only going to continue. The prices for modern are too high. Prices are not player driven either, they are store driven. Cards that were $2 went to $20 for no reason at all except the format announcement.
What cards? I am not saying you are wrong, but I have not seen a single modern card that increased in value ten fold after the announcment.
And we laugh at people that walk in, pull out a cell phone and spin a outrageous price at us for a card we are trading for. I'm sick of internet pricing that makes no sense at all.
What does your shop use for a price guide? The ones around here use magiccards.info medium price for their singles, so if I am trading in that shop it makes sense to trade for that much or perhaps slightly less.
I've had arguments with people and been threatened by morons who found out later that the trade was $5 in my favor, from their bull**** website, that they pulled up hours later on their phone to check and came back demanding their cards back or more cards. And I tell them no, go F yourself...
I have no difficulty, thanks to this angry wall of text, imagining you arguing something loudly, congrats. If my shop uses an internet site for a price guide, where do you come off calling both of them wrong? How are you attributing value, or do you just like to rip kids off and then yell at them?
Modern just isn't going to work at all. Until wizards prints Chronicals 2.......Modern magic high value cards. 100 of them in a box, for $30. It would be the best day ever for magic, and for once wizards will have lived up to their reprint policy.
Where in their reprint policy does it say they should print previously rare cards in such high quantities, that they loose value, which hurts the bottom line of your FLGS?
And then next year they can do the same thing top 100 over priced cards in Chronicals 3. and repeat over and over again. I've had so many friends who have either quit playing magic entirely or are only EDH players now, because of the wacky out of control prices that wizards has created, with no 2nd market concern for their cards what so ever.
Why is it you want to destroy the company that makes this game? That is what you are suggesting, you anecdotal evidence not withstanding, and reeks of a sense of angsty entitlement that makes you feel like wizards owes you something. Your experience is not, surprisingly enough, indicative of the health of the game or the format- which is quite high with current practices.
I am all for reprinting staples- Goyf, Shocks, Bob...stuff like that, but not in the garbage quantities that you suggest. Put them in a normal block (Standard survived with them the first time, they will again) and let the established system get them to the people that want them. This will not drive down the original prices much, if at all (see Sol Ring), and will satisfy all of the reasonable players. Wizards needs to step up and meet that expectation, but I genuinely believe we will have some more staples in the system before this time next year.
What cards? I am not saying you are wrong, but I have not seen a single modern card that increased in value ten fold after the announcment.
Not trying to prove you wrong at all, because I agree with your post, however, I'd just like to point out that thoughtseize went from about $17 to $40 almost overnight a few weeks ago. Of course this was well after modern was announced, but I'd just thought I'd point it out. I think SCG had been considering it for a while when people were putting together jund (thus the rise from about $14 to about $17), then b/w tokens suddenly became a deck and the demand became overwhelming.
Hopefully nothing else in modern will see a crazy spike like this. This is the only example I can think of though. Other cards, such as the shock lands, only rose a couple of bucks.
Not trying to prove you wrong at all, because I agree with your post, however, I'd just like to point out that thoughtseize went from about $17 to $40 almost overnight a few weeks ago. Of course this was well after modern was announced, but I'd just thought I'd point it out. I think SCG had been considering it for a while when people were putting together jund (thus the rise from about $14 to about $17), then b/w tokens suddenly became a deck and the demand became overwhelming.
Hopefully nothing else in modern will see a crazy spike like this. This is the only example I can think of though. Other cards, such as the shock lands, only rose a couple of bucks.
That is annoying but well within my expectations. The angry poster, however, claimed that there were cards that increased in value ten times (specifically from $2 to $20) just because of the announcement- in the same day even. Prices are going to increase, that is economics, but his hyperbolic assertion seems unbelievable.
Again, I do not follow the prices of all magic cards, so I could have missed some thing like this, but I cannot see how.
What cards? I am not saying you are wrong, but I have not seen a single modern card that increased in value ten fold after the announcment.
Vedalken Shackles and Isochron Scepter were fairly close to increasing that much; although I think it was closer to being something along the lines of from $5 to $20; Even though they aren't played in anything better than Tier 1.5 decks or you could really call them Tier 2 for the amount of play they see; And Shackles isn't even a 4 of in Fae.
(Scepter* is back down to the 5-10$ range, however)
To be fair shocklands spiked from $5 to around $50 for the initial buying spree, though they are back down to the 20-40 dollar range depending on which land and where you are looking. Shackles went from $4-$5 to $20-$25. Goyf and Bob were already high so they didnt spike. There wasnt that many cards that jumped that high. Yeah a few dollars, but over all the market has been pretty stable. Every format has its cards that are in demand more then others and have high prices. Blame those paying the price, not the sellers.
To be fair shocklands spiked from $5 to around $50 for the initial buying spree...
Any proof? Any reputable sellers that could confirm this? Again, I am just trying to confirm or debunk hyperbolic claims about the format. It is amazing how much humans shape their recollection based on their current conclusions, so without any confirmation stuff like this feels like wild exaggeration. We are all capable of such confirmation bias.
I can believe a 4x or 5x increase in some cases, though the claim of overnight or the same day as the poster I am questioning claims, and the claim of x10 increases are highly unbelievable.
Vedalken Shackles and Isochron Scepter were fairly close to increasing that much; although I think it was closer to being something along the lines of from $5 to $20; Even though they aren't played in anything better than Tier 1.5 decks or you could really call them Tier 2 for the amount of play they see; And Shackles isn't even a 4 of in Fae.
(Shackles is back down to the 5-10$ range, however)
Shackles went from $8 in Jan to $15 as of last week. I bought mine when they were at $5 about 6 months ago, and glad I did. I want to pick up more when it's around $10, as I think it's by far the most powerful artifact in the format.
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Legacy Decks
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Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
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Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Any proof? Any reputable sellers that could confirm this? Again, I am just trying to confirm or debunk hyperbolic claims about the format. It is amazing how much humans shape their recollection based on their current conclusions, so without any confirmation stuff like this feels like wild exaggeration. We are all capable of such confirmation bias.
I can believe a 4x or 5x increase in some cases, though the claim of overnight or the same day as the poster I am questioning claims, and the claim of x10 increases are highly unbelievable.
As soon as Modern was announced (with the set range listed) there was a fairly large buying spree for ravnica shocks - a friend bought a playset of each shock, for around 5-10 per land, and by the time they had arrived each was worth 30-50 each. It was no exaggeration. Speculation at it's finest.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Modern is killing Legacy
^ that is one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard.
Whats more likely to happen (power creep being what it is) is that both modern and legacy will reach a point where the decks are virtually similar and wizards will simply collapse the 2 formats.
I think they both have their place.
If anything (and I do mean ANYTHING) they will collapse extended into this.
I did see an extended 2 man fire the other day tho. True Story.
...oh, crazy claims.
Modern wont kill Legacy, the reprint policy will.
I think extended was already announced to be dead and Modern is to replace that format.
At the rest babbling about reprints, Goyf would have to be reprinted in the core set and RTR to get under $50. I doubt it would ever get under $30. Even if they reprint all the hot older staples from the older sets, they are going to have to do it a again in a few years to help out those new players that will have starter.
When the initial ban list came out. I was like: "Wow... ok, these X decks aren't viable, but that's good, Let the brewing commence!". Then, after the banning of all good 1 mana cantrips and Rite of Flame, I thought: "Well, ponder and preordain is needed for control, so that's weird. I do understand Rite of flame (which killed more decks than just combo, like AiR)". So I then rolled with it. The final straw was Wild Nacatl...
People do say crazy things about Modern, Legacy and standard for that matter.
Do I think it's killing Legacy? no.
Do I think Modern is a bad format? no.
Do I think Modern will die? no.
Modern, even Legacy (depending on the deck) is cheaper than standard now, so that's bull.
Do I hear crazy things about Modern? yes, just as much as you
With all that being said, there is some truth in that "it's not a good sign when you have to start banning creatures that don't do much beside swing." If you look at the Legacy ban list, the only creatures that are banned enable ridiculous combos.
There is some truth to the theory that control is weaker. Maybe not weak, but weaker. Nacatl is my case-in-point. Tron also seemed to easily replace cloudpost decks, so I don't know what they were trying to accomplish by banning that... Tron is indeed one of the better decks in the format and a control deck, but my point is, it's one of the only viable ones.
The format is waaaay more paper-rock-scissors than Legacy (sometimes rock beats paper in Legacy hah!). I just think it will get better once the card pool gets larger and some unbannings take place.
I don't know. Every time I go to large events, SCG, ABU, or TrollAndToad, countless other vendors always have Legacy staples for sale. The whole supply-demand thing is a crazy claim about Legacy lol! IMO.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Indeed! But I mean that Legacy is rock/paper/scissors/lizard/spock/batman/crane/fire/water/tornado.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
At what price though? The less cards in the pool the higher the price goes. According to most of the bigger card dealers, they profess there is only 25-30% of those staples on the no reprint list in America. The other 75-80% are spread among the UK and Japan. Add in all the cards that have been damaged and thrown out. The card pool is shrinking. Just because some of the bigger sellers can afford to invest large chunks of their monies in the staples doesnt mean they are any easier to come by.
There's a kernel of truth in the complains about Modern being too matchup dependent - A ton of matches end up being completely decided for game 1 just based on archetypes, while the "real" games start after game 1. Jund and caw-blade are some of the only "play fair" decks in the meta, and while every archetype is subject to a little hate, there's plenty of non-interactive matchups like affinity vs. splintertwin, or tron vs. storm.
This is definitely a problem that will get fixed as the card pool expands and we see more reprints of certain staples, but it certainly puts too much of a focus on meta-gaming the field as opposed to tuning an archetype.
There is probably some truth to that. I just don't trust the large vendors. They tend to fudge the numbers a bit to abuse the secondary market. "Get these now!!! There are only like 2 left!!" Even though they might be hoarding some or know of places to get more.
I know of Vendors, that are true card shops. They stay off the grid and hate Internet vendors like SCG, etc. It is entirely easier to haggle/trade with them to get powerful Legacy staples for cheaper than the "best buys" of the magic card world.
eBay is also a great resource.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Wait, you were the guy saying Jace wasn't over-powered. There, I can counter your useless Ad-Hom with one of my own.
Not hardly. Maybe you could try to explain which part you do not understand so I can elaborate on it. Magic Econ doesn't work as linearly as you are suggesting. Card prices are determined strictly by version and condition. If what you were saying were even partially true, dual lands would not vary from around $60 to upwards of $1200. Any re-print of Goyf would be in a different style and border as the original, this would separate the two as no one would want to have the odd one of of a different version. Magic players are fickle in the editions they use. The older players would obviously default to going after the oldest versions they can find in the best condition. Those prices would remain high for that reason alone.
You made the statement, live with it. If you want to back down from that commentary, feel free. I wasn't the one making felicitous arguments based upon a non-durable non-flexible commodity.
Too bad the point you used doesn't apply to the Legacy staples I deal with. Unless FOW was reprinted for Modern use that is. Logic Leaps only exist if they based on unrelated topics that have never been heard of before. This is a topic that is well observed in Magic every-time they print a Judge foil version of a card. The demand for it drives the price up. Printing new Goyf's would drive everyone that could afford the original to scoop up as many copies of them as possible to store away. Up the price would go still. Only a few of those people would go after the new version.
It applies because most of the cards seeing a lot of play in Modern are either staples in Legacy or are seeing play in Standard at this very moment. The Legacy staples I deal with are removed from the equation, and thus their prices can fluctuate at much greater frequency, as in every season. Modern staples do not have this luxury, because they are staples in other formats. Any re-prints that will exist will be put into the same time and frame as the already existing Legacy and Standard demand. The prices might go down, but it will only be temporary as the supply get's all gobbled up again. There is no long-term relief possible for Modern outside of the re-prints of the lands. This is the only re-print that would do any good over the longer-term. That is if they are not re-printed in Standard though. Re-prints with them in Standard will drive the prices even higher.
I know I am not alone when I say that there are many people like me that make more than the average Magic player that could easily walk into any store and buy them out of everything to either flip it, or store it away. There are a lot of people like this every where. That you haven't ran into any of these people says more to me about your inter-personal skills than anything else you've said here. There is a rather large segment of Legacy players that have an extensive amount of regular cash flow from dealing in Magic cards.
This game is going on 20 years now, some of us have been playing that long.
See that's typically, you stated that you think everyone should be able to afford a playset of any card they desired. Which in itself is a ridiculous statement. Everyone that is playing this game at this level, can afford any card they want. It's a matter of saving your money and/or trading up into them. If you literally have no money to spend on Magic at all, then you should probably be spending your time looking for a job or something better with your time. This is a game and hobby for some of us. It is not a necessity
You are correct though, you didn't say you yourself deserve to buy a playset at $40 at your leisure. The point still remains, the cost of entry for Magic has always been this high. Always.Which in reference to this post:
makes my point clear. If you are not willing to drop the coin for the cards in the format that actually cost the money and have the rarity and power level that some of are willing to spend on, then no you do not deserve to have them. It's not about the money, it's about the willingness to actually save and work your way to a goal. You do not deserve to play a format just because you want to without putting the effort and time into it. There are a lot of people on here that have spent an extra-ordinary amount of their personal time making this format what it is. Blippy is one of those people, and it's quite poor for some one to come in saying that those people that spent their time and money on those cards do not deserve the amount they would ask for them on trade or sale to help another person enter the format.
They made the format because people were asking for it, for that reason alone. WOTC was ignoring Over-Extended for quite some time before they decided to get on the bandwagon.
Please refrain from tell me how to invest, it's embarrassing to hear it from people that do not even understand multivariate economics. See the first reply to your comment in this post.
Quit assuming so much about me. You do not know me, or know what I invest in. Magic is a crappy investment from the beginning because there is no real return on it. The real ROI on all of these cards is much lower than the rate of inflation, you'd have to be bad at math to think otherwise... This is merely a hobby for me, and if I can grab cards to hold for a few weeks/months to flip for a profit I do so. Otherwise I look at this like some of you might look at going to the movies, or whatever it is that kids do these days. It's pure entertainment for me.
Do you really want to get into a Magic-peen sizing contest here?
This is just simply not true. Attendance goes up with interactive formats. Right now the decks in the format are extremely diverse, and aside from one really difficult to deal with deck, there are no really expensive decks that are over-represented. Aggro-Loam is the only real deck that has expensive staples that's hard to deal with. Every other deck plays mostly Standard legal stuff, or just isn't that expensive. RDW takes events often, so do decks like Faeries and Caw-Blade. None of those cards are that expensive. Heck even Mono-W control has put up numbers, and that deck is pretty cheap. No one is being closed out of the format in the slightest.
I wouldn't know, I haven't played them. Most of them do not play Modern, and the few that do I have never played them or seen them play. Get off your ego trip here, and then maybe you'll understand why I responded the way I did to you. I know you likely won't, and continue to view me as an evil, vain, egotistical a$$**** though. The economics of Magic do not work the way you think they do, and the price of a card has very little effect on the turn-out or the shape of the Meta. That is solely done by the players themselves.
Oh let me guess, now I'm just another evil, Right-Wing, racist Republican right? Give me a f**king break kid. I read the thread, and it was full of much of the same idealistic nonsense with people ignoring why card prices are the way they are. Look at the avatar, do I even resemble the sort of nonsense you are spewing here? I did read the thread, you should look back at the first page.
Re-prints would bring in more people for sure, but those prices would not stay down as everyone entering the format would push them right back up again with the rest of us with expendable income soaking up the left overs or grabbing up every spare copy under the sun we can find. Then we'll be right back here with you still whining for reprints, and me still pointing out that it will not do anything for the format. Innovation will stagnate even more than it has already, because everyone will have their 4xGoyf's, and the other decks in the format that do not run the staples will never see play. Magic players are too prone to Groupthink for that to ever work.
Then again I must be blowing smoke up everyone's rear. It's not like you'd not just run 4xGoyf's if you are running U and G together. If you're U and not a big Control deck you must have 4X Clique or Snapcaster. What about if you are running a big control deck, it has to be Teachings or Gift's right? It's called Groupthink. The problem with the lack of innovation and high prices is not the limited market, it's the limited players. It's the players that set those prices because they all clamor for specific cards like lemmings.
Warning for censor evasion t_c
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
We laugh at people who walk in, pull out a cell phone and try to pretend that a card isn't worth as much as it really is.
Do I always agree with internet pricing? No, but it's far more consistent than whatever individuals would make it out to be, you and I included.
Also, I quit standard because at the rate the meta game was changing and new decks arose, I found I was spending more money trying to put a tier 1 deck together. Not to hate on standard or anything, because its' a great format, but the format is always changing which means you're always going to be trying to build new decks and spend money on them. If you build a deck in an eternal format, that's it. Once it's built, it's done, and unless you built a deck that doesn't do well competitively, you don't have to build another one. The good cards from the deck won't rotate out, and new cards that get printed probably won't end up in your deck, let alone make you spend lots of money to add them to your already-existing deck.
This might be a crazy claim in the opposite direction, but I wouldn't be surprised if modern costs less than standard to play, as long as you aren't playing modern jund. Hell, I'm playing modern jund without goyfs, and I've only spent about $75 for it acquiring everything else through trade (and luckily got all 3 lilly's in packs).
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
We are very much so aware of this effect but its not as regular as you would like to pretend it to be. And lots of cards, when reprinted stay at a lower price for long times. Sol Ring is a perfect example. Before the commander reprinting you were not going to be able to find a copy for less than $15. Now days, after commander reprint? You can easily find many copies selling for $6-10. Sure they may go back up, but that's gonna take awhile, and in the meantime people that couldn't afford them before are now buying them for $8.
And yet again you contradict your self... Reprints would bring more people, BUT they won't do anything for the format (like bring in more people).
I could go on and on pointing out the absurd things you have said in this thread alone, but that would take too much time.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
Never said they would become "worthless". Never said the original wouldn't maintain value for the most part. But we are not talking about for the purpose of collecting, we are talking people wanting reprints for play reasons. Either way you're talking about something that not even the point. The point is that his claims are ludicrous and contradict themselves on many levels.
FACT: If goyf was reprinted with a different (or even the same) border, we would see that version be a lower price than the original, not to mention the people who get it from just busting a pack. This would go a long way to reducing the barrier of entry into the format. This is not debatable, and anyone who believe that cheaper, more available staples would not have impact on tournament attendance is whacked. Anyone who believes that reprints would not alleviate availability issues is also whacked in the head. Before they reprinted Lightning Bolt almost no one I knew, save for old-schoolers and collectors/legacy players, had Lightning bolt. Now? I know very few players that don't have 4.
Not to mention his terrible "I have bought these and want them to sell them for X and its not "fair" for the value to drop because you want reprints because I have invested in them blah blah blah". He has just as much of an entitlement issue as the people he accuses of having an entitlement complex, just in a different form.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
There is enough room for both types of people. The problems come when Wotc caters to one or the other exclusively<cough> reprint policy<cough> . Wotc cant ruin the game play because of the collectors, as well as destroying the collections due to game play needs.
I personally am a player first and foremost. I have traded alpha and beta cards at extremely high prices to fill voids in my playsets of cards. I know not everyone sees it the same way I do, but in the end they are only pieces of cardboard...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10810223#post10810223
Sales thread --->
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=536203
Decks
Legacy UBReanimator
Modern UWGSummer Bloom UWTRONBGRLiving EndRAffinity/Robots
Standard UWMiracles
EDH WGRMayael
To be honest, I'd say wizards reprinting goyf is a crazy claim, but I guess that means I'm crazy cuz I'm hoping they'll reprint goyf.
And as far as collector value goes, the future sight goyf would definitely be worth more than the new goyf if there ever is one, however, both would still be expensive, and I can't see the future sight one being that much more seeing that it's only five years old. Same goes for shock lands and the like.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
What does your shop use for a price guide? The ones around here use magiccards.info medium price for their singles, so if I am trading in that shop it makes sense to trade for that much or perhaps slightly less.
I have no difficulty, thanks to this angry wall of text, imagining you arguing something loudly, congrats. If my shop uses an internet site for a price guide, where do you come off calling both of them wrong? How are you attributing value, or do you just like to rip kids off and then yell at them?
Where in their reprint policy does it say they should print previously rare cards in such high quantities, that they loose value, which hurts the bottom line of your FLGS?
Why is it you want to destroy the company that makes this game? That is what you are suggesting, you anecdotal evidence not withstanding, and reeks of a sense of angsty entitlement that makes you feel like wizards owes you something. Your experience is not, surprisingly enough, indicative of the health of the game or the format- which is quite high with current practices.
I am all for reprinting staples- Goyf, Shocks, Bob...stuff like that, but not in the garbage quantities that you suggest. Put them in a normal block (Standard survived with them the first time, they will again) and let the established system get them to the people that want them. This will not drive down the original prices much, if at all (see Sol Ring), and will satisfy all of the reasonable players. Wizards needs to step up and meet that expectation, but I genuinely believe we will have some more staples in the system before this time next year.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Not trying to prove you wrong at all, because I agree with your post, however, I'd just like to point out that thoughtseize went from about $17 to $40 almost overnight a few weeks ago. Of course this was well after modern was announced, but I'd just thought I'd point it out. I think SCG had been considering it for a while when people were putting together jund (thus the rise from about $14 to about $17), then b/w tokens suddenly became a deck and the demand became overwhelming.
Hopefully nothing else in modern will see a crazy spike like this. This is the only example I can think of though. Other cards, such as the shock lands, only rose a couple of bucks.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
Again, I do not follow the prices of all magic cards, so I could have missed some thing like this, but I cannot see how.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Vedalken Shackles and Isochron Scepter were fairly close to increasing that much; although I think it was closer to being something along the lines of from $5 to $20; Even though they aren't played in anything better than Tier 1.5 decks or you could really call them Tier 2 for the amount of play they see; And Shackles isn't even a 4 of in Fae.
(Scepter* is back down to the 5-10$ range, however)
Sig courtesy of DOLZero
[82/360] Custom Cube
Blog about the Custom Cube
I can believe a 4x or 5x increase in some cases, though the claim of overnight or the same day as the poster I am questioning claims, and the claim of x10 increases are highly unbelievable.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Shackles went from $8 in Jan to $15 as of last week. I bought mine when they were at $5 about 6 months ago, and glad I did. I want to pick up more when it's around $10, as I think it's by far the most powerful artifact in the format.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
As soon as Modern was announced (with the set range listed) there was a fairly large buying spree for ravnica shocks - a friend bought a playset of each shock, for around 5-10 per land, and by the time they had arrived each was worth 30-50 each. It was no exaggeration. Speculation at it's finest.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary