Ok so its pretty obvious that the new paladin is going to be a house. My question is what form do you think it will take?
BGW doran? I can see a 5/5 double striker being quite hard to stop. Being that it would be swinging for 10 as early as turn 3 is amazing. Also that color combo gives us thoughtseize and goyf. I really worry about the possiblities of a 4/5 goyf with double strike swinging on turn 3. Thats with no ramp!
WGR is another powerful combo for it. Red gets crazy cards. Including goyf, but then has the reach to put you away. Cascading into would make a 3/2 haste doublestriker.
WGU CLIQUE gets added to the mix here. Maybe not good enough, but blue dies add alot to the ability to actually be able to find the paladin or goyf.
WR boros could give some of those fast beaters doublestrike and knock you down to burn range so fast.
WB husk dad style deck could be crazy. That'll make husk only need to sac 4 dudes for letal. Not hard when you consider all the token making power the deck has currently. Also runs path and thoughtseize to make sure that opening is present.
Well im sure there is more decks than mentioned here. What form do you think it will take?
It costs 3 of the manas, and requires double white. That right there is a very large limitation for any 3-color deck. An even larger limitation for aggro decks is that 3cmc. For 3 mana your spell should be a finisher on it's own in an Aggro deck.
I can't see this card being more than a 1-2 of for the Vial Knights deck.
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Modern
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Right now, CMC3 guys need to win you the game by themselves, or pull you ahead by a massive margin right away. Paladin needs to survive a turn, get into combat, and do all this with one other guy. He's not good enough, and you could get blown out very easily, pulling into combat with your two guys, only to have one pathed and the other eaten by a goyf.
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I've tested Silverblade Paladin in Knights, Bant, Zoo, and W/x Weenie. All you guys except for the OP are underestimating him. He is mini-Rafiq of the Many, except he fits into swarm decks like Knights/Zoo/W/x Weenie and Exalted decks like Bant alike. And being only 3 cmc and requiring white mana only are huge boons for him.
Silverblade Paladin makes an immediate impact on the board. Have him Soulbond with Thalia and you suddenly have 2 Mirran Crusader-caliber creatures on Turn 3. Have him Soulbond with Knight of the Reliquary and you have monsters on your hands. Have him Soulbond with Geist of Saint Traft and you hit for 8 power from Traft alone and still have a Paladin with Double Strike. Have him Soulbond with Traft's Angel and you hit for 10 power from Traft alone instead (but leave Paladin somewhat exposed).
It's true that he blows on an empty board, though. Run 25+ creatures if you're running him.
I see the general thought is its not good enough. Well that means ill start collecting them asap, while the price is still low.
Their seems to be a missundetstanding on how soulbound works. Its not like banding guys. It just links the guys together. Not attaching on anything. Its a continues effect that happens while both creatures are pressent. Meaning you can go fetchland, sac for wb shock land, thoughtseize, next turn goyf, next turn paladin, swing with doublestriking goyf.
I really had not thought of st t. I really like paladin with the angel token. Also allows you to cast snapcaster when they try to swing back and snappy can trade with crussader or another x/4 guy. Since it will no longer be bound to the token because it sacs.That opens up so much possibilities for some Uw aggro control thing.
I agree with Lectrys, this is going to be a must deal with card. Knights is looking like it will jump to tier 2 pretty quickly, and the paladin will be tossed in to more than a few other decks. I know I will put it in D&T, and while it will not have the same impact as other decks, it will make the deck a little better.
3cmc creatures do not need to win games themselves in modern, but I think this has a chance of fitting that profile. Knight of the Reliquary, at 3cmc, is probably slightly more powerful, but still does not win the game in one turn.
I think this is why we are supposed to link cards, have no idea what knight you guys are talking about...
Unfortunately we cannot link to it or post it here, as it has not been released yet (at least I think that is how it works), but it is called Silverblade Paladin and is pretty easy to spot on the visual spoiler.
except knight of the reliquary can win you the games all by herself, grows bigger, and tutors lands.
Having paladin by itself won't have as much an impact. Also, as a must deal with card, opponents can alternatively deal with the card it's soulbonded to instead to make paladin look like a gray ogre.
I've tested Silverblade Paladin in Knights, Bant, Zoo, and W/x Weenie. All you guys except for the OP are underestimating him. He is mini-Rafiq of the Many, except he fits into swarm decks like Knights/Zoo/W/x Weenie and Exalted decks like Bant alike. And being only 3 cmc and requiring white mana only are huge boons for him.
Silverblade Paladin makes an immediate impact on the board. Have him Soulbond with Thalia and you suddenly have 2 Mirran Crusader-caliber creatures on Turn 3. Have him Soulbond with Knight of the Reliquary and you have monsters on your hands. Have him Soulbond with Geist of Saint Traft and you hit for 8 power from Traft alone and still have a Paladin with Double Strike. Have him Soulbond with Traft's Angel and you hit for 10 power from Traft alone instead (but leave Paladin somewhat exposed).
It's true that he blows on an empty board, though. Run 25+ creatures if you're running him.
I'm not underestimating him. I'm just looking at how many 3 drops are already in the decks that the OP and several others mentioned, and giving respect to IoK seeing a lot of play in the near and distant future along side with the new 1cmc instant that kills humans. Yes, I am Meta-gaming already, because I have to in order to play a control deck in this format. I wonder how many other players have actually looked at how many Humans are actively played in Modern. Almost all of the Staple creatures are Human.
I know if I IoK you on turn 1, and see this guy and KotR in your hand, I'm taking KotR and killing this guy when he hit's the board without hesitation. My Meta is obviously different than everyone else's, but it's a very aggressive format, and I run a lot of removal to deal with it. In order to survive in a Meta like this, your spells need to be borderline broken or straight up busted in half. KotR and Geist of St. Traft are both broken to a point. KotR is broken in the right deck, and Geist is just busted especially on turn 2 out of a Bant deck.
I do not get the same feel from this Paladin, nor do I see how he's much good without exalted triggers or a fatty on the board than would already be a good enough card to run alone. He's too small to really get past anything alone, and doesn't survive Volcanic Fallout/Bolt/Path/Disfigure/Smother, which makes him very weak IMO.
I do see him fitting a role in the Knights deck though, as this is an effect that that deck wants. It also fit's the curve for Vial in that deck well, and gives that deck a trick that can mess up your opponent's combat math.
If you happen to have more creatures, they will just destroy one and the soulbound is over. If you have 3 or more, they will destroy the knight. If you have 2, they'll probably destroy the soulbounded guy and leave you with an spectacular 2/2.
I believe we have "vexing devil" levels of power ambigiuty here.
He does seem a little underwhelmign for 3 mana in that if one of the craetures dies he is all moot. But then again he is really good attack power and Geist is run just for the sake of having really good attack power.
I hate to throw a wet blanket on the hoopla surround this guy but...
You are aware that if the other guy gets hit with any form of removal this is a 2/2 for a restrictive 3 mana? There are way to many ways to kill a dude in this format to make keeping 2 dudes alive worth the time. Aegis Angel is very similar and it sees zero play.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
You guys do realize that even if you do kill the creature its paired with, the next goyf or doran, etc you play can be soulbound. If you have to play defense then you can block a much bigger guy and trade then be bound to the next creature. Its just an all around great card. Much better on the attack though.
Angel costs 6 mana. Meaning it doesnt go into the same decks. Angel does not give a power boost, meaning it goes in different decks. Angel gives a form of protection. Meaning they go in different decks. Fact is the decks that could use angel has no need for protections. It plays bomb, bomb, bomb.
Aggro decks could use a doublestriking goyf or doran or clique or whatever.
I don't think it's that great. I would always rather just run Mirran Crusader, Knight Exemplar and KOTR in my knight deck rather than completely clogging it with yet another 3cmc knight.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
You guys do realize that even if you do kill the creature its paired with, the next goyf or doran, etc you play can be soulbound. If you have to play defense then you can block a much bigger guy and trade then be bound to the next creature. Its just an all around great card. Much better on the attack though.
We are aware of all these things; the Geist Angel interaction, playing him unpaired, etc. The biggest issue with him is that he needs other cards to be good. Most of the time he's going to be competing with Knight of the Reliquary, Mirran Crusader, Doran, Vendilion Clique. What's the difference between these cards and Silverblade Paladin? The fact that they can win games by themselves. Indeed, the card he is looking to oust is Mirran Crusader, but the Crusader has protection from goyfs and half the removal in the format, and still has double strike.
Sure, he might make it in a knights-type deck, but the kind of thing you are talking about is a weaker option than what those decks are already doing right now.
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Those decks are swinging on turn 3 with a 1/6 doublestriking doran already? Jesus! Why didnt you tell me? Thanks for the heads up justicar! Silly me. And here I was sitting on the dump thinking that flashing in 3/1 doublestriking clique was a good play. Thanks for leading me in the right direction. Someone delete this thread please. I was wrong about this card... Just like how I was flamed for saying goyf was a good card when it was in the dollar rare binders.
Sorry to come off this way (actually Im not) but I guess we will see in the long run.
Those decks are swinging on turn 3 with a 1/6 doublestriking doran already? Jesus! Why didnt you tell me? Thanks for the heads up justicar! Silly me. And here I was sitting on the dump thinking that flashing in 3/1 doublestriking clique was a good play. Thanks for leading me in the right direction. Someone delete this thread please. I was wrong about this card... Just like how I was flamed for saying goyf was a good card when it was in the dollar rare binders.
Sorry to come off this way (actually Im not) but I guess we will see in the long run.
If you are capable of landing both of those and keep them on the board, you were already winning. If your opponent has no way of interacting with you by that point in the game, or isn't already beating you in the face with something, then you are already winning.
The only real control deck in this format is BUG, unless you want to count Fae as control now...
Tron is not a control deck, as U/W Tron is barely playable. That's why they all switched to R/G for the most part. The Aggro decks don't care about you landing this guy or Doran, as they run Path, Lightning Helix, and Lightning Bolt to deal with most of that or just burn your face off. Doran honestly is not that good in Modern. He get's outclassed by almost everything that comes down sooner, and dies to most of the removal in the format, and the format is running a lot of removal and discard. Your 3 mana really needs to be paying for something that can impact the board itself in a meaningful way.
I'm not trying to harp on you, it's just that the format is not what it was a little over a month ago when the PTQ's were still firing off. It's already changed in the past two weeks alone. Not sure about on MODO, but I play a lot of Modern in paper, and the shift from what was playable during PTQ and now has been pretty dramatic. KotR is borderline too slow for this format, and she's the best 3 drop ever printed. Almost everyone is winning with Grim and Geist, or just playing the Tempo game.
Our last PTQ here the meta had shifted from combo being dominant to Grixis Fae crushing everyone. The top 7 decks were all Fae. I saw what they played through all day, and it was a sea of KotR, Crusaders, Goyfs, and Spaghetti monsters. The matchups were not even close. Fae is the deck to beat in the competitive arena right now, and this card at 3cmc is not competitive enough outside of Vial Knights. The only way I see you beating Fae with this guy is to either be cascading into him with BBE, or to have enough discard to rip apart their hand before they can do anything meaningful. One is more feasible than the other due to the double white, so I would suggest you dust off the those BBE's if you want to play this guy. You could vial him out, but as it was stated above that deck is barely tiered, I was not aware of this, as I haven't even seen the deck in action before.
If you are capable of landing both of those and keep them on the board, you were already winning. If your opponent has no way of interacting with you by that point in the game, or isn't already beating you in the face with something, then you are already winning.[quote]I just do not understand this notion that if you have more than one creature in play at the same time you are already winning. I get more than one creature in to play plenty of the time in my Rock build, D&T, Knights, Shamen, UG Tempo, and Tokens (just off the top of my head)- and those are just the established decks I play. Playing creatures and keeping them in play is not win you imply that it is.
[quote]Doran honestly is not that good in Modern. He get's outclassed by almost everything that comes down sooner, and dies to most of the removal in the format, and the format is running a lot of removal and discard. Your 3 mana really needs to be paying for something that can impact the board itself in a meaningful way.
Modern is fast, but not that fast. An effective 5/5 for 3 impacts the board fairly well, and the "dies to removal" is just ridiculous. KotR dies to more things than Doran, and it is still great. Granted, it is great for other reasons, but I am not saying that Doran is on par with one of the best creatures in the format. It is still a card that impacts the board.
I'm not trying to harp on you, it's just that the format is not what it was a little over a month ago when the PTQ's were still firing off. It's already changed in the past two weeks alone. Not sure about on MODO, but I play a lot of Modern in paper, and the shift from what was playable during PTQ and now has been pretty dramatic.
Sorry, I just don't buy your alarmism. Nothing has changed since PTQ's ended, aside from there being more people running RGTron. No new removal has been added to the meta, no new combo has made any waves. We will soon be seeing a big hit to Fae, and frankly I think you are exaggerating Fae in the extreme.
Double white does not preclude running discard at all unless you are running 4 colors.
I don't think the card will even be played in Modern. It's one thing to fit in an already good deck, but making a crappy deck tournament worthy? No way.
I just do not understand this notion that if you have more than one creature in play at the same time you are already winning. I get more than one creature in to play plenty of the time in my Rock build, D&T, Knights, Shamen, UG Tempo, and Tokens (just off the top of my head)- and those are just the established decks I play. Playing creatures and keeping them in play is not win you imply that it is.
I've never seen those decks break the Top 8 where I play. It's not they are not present, it's just that they are not that good.
Modern is fast, but not that fast. An effective 5/5 for 3 impacts the board fairly well, and the "dies to removal" is just ridiculous. KotR dies to more things than Doran, and it is still great. Granted, it is great for other reasons, but I am not saying that Doran is on par with one of the best creatures in the format. It is still a card that impacts the board.
Sorry, I just don't buy your alarmism. Nothing has changed since PTQ's ended, aside from there being more people running RGTron. No new removal has been added to the meta, no new combo has made any waves. We will soon be seeing a big hit to Fae, and frankly I think you are exaggerating Fae in the extreme.
A turn 4 Karn is pretty fast. A turn 4 kill is pretty fast, these are common things in Modern.
The second to last and the last few PTQ's are when Grixis Fae started break out. Just because your Meta is not changing doesn't mean the rest of them are not evolving. Mine is evolving every week. The MODO one is nearly every day.
Double white does not preclude running discard at all unless you are running 4 colors.
Double white limits the manabase you can feasibly run. Even in a three color deck this is true.
BGW doran? I can see a 5/5 double striker being quite hard to stop. Being that it would be swinging for 10 as early as turn 3 is amazing. Also that color combo gives us thoughtseize and goyf. I really worry about the possiblities of a 4/5 goyf with double strike swinging on turn 3. Thats with no ramp!
WGR is another powerful combo for it. Red gets crazy cards. Including goyf, but then has the reach to put you away. Cascading into would make a 3/2 haste doublestriker.
WGU CLIQUE gets added to the mix here. Maybe not good enough, but blue dies add alot to the ability to actually be able to find the paladin or goyf.
WR boros could give some of those fast beaters doublestrike and knock you down to burn range so fast.
WB husk dad style deck could be crazy. That'll make husk only need to sac 4 dudes for letal. Not hard when you consider all the token making power the deck has currently. Also runs path and thoughtseize to make sure that opening is present.
Well im sure there is more decks than mentioned here. What form do you think it will take?
I can't see this card being more than a 1-2 of for the Vial Knights deck.
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combo elves
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List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
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Mayael the Anima
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Silverblade Paladin makes an immediate impact on the board. Have him Soulbond with Thalia and you suddenly have 2 Mirran Crusader-caliber creatures on Turn 3. Have him Soulbond with Knight of the Reliquary and you have monsters on your hands. Have him Soulbond with Geist of Saint Traft and you hit for 8 power from Traft alone and still have a Paladin with Double Strike. Have him Soulbond with Traft's Angel and you hit for 10 power from Traft alone instead (but leave Paladin somewhat exposed).
It's true that he blows on an empty board, though. Run 25+ creatures if you're running him.
Their seems to be a missundetstanding on how soulbound works. Its not like banding guys. It just links the guys together. Not attaching on anything. Its a continues effect that happens while both creatures are pressent. Meaning you can go fetchland, sac for wb shock land, thoughtseize, next turn goyf, next turn paladin, swing with doublestriking goyf.
I really had not thought of st t. I really like paladin with the angel token. Also allows you to cast snapcaster when they try to swing back and snappy can trade with crussader or another x/4 guy. Since it will no longer be bound to the token because it sacs.That opens up so much possibilities for some Uw aggro control thing.
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3cmc creatures do not need to win games themselves in modern, but I think this has a chance of fitting that profile. Knight of the Reliquary, at 3cmc, is probably slightly more powerful, but still does not win the game in one turn.
Unfortunately we cannot link to it or post it here, as it has not been released yet (at least I think that is how it works), but it is called Silverblade Paladin and is pretty easy to spot on the visual spoiler.
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Having paladin by itself won't have as much an impact. Also, as a must deal with card, opponents can alternatively deal with the card it's soulbonded to instead to make paladin look like a gray ogre.
At best Paladin can be a pseudo Rafiq.
:symwr:BorosBGR Living End(Primer) W Soul Sisters Tokens
UGrand Architect+Pili-Pala Infinite combo:symq::chaos:
I'm not underestimating him. I'm just looking at how many 3 drops are already in the decks that the OP and several others mentioned, and giving respect to IoK seeing a lot of play in the near and distant future along side with the new 1cmc instant that kills humans. Yes, I am Meta-gaming already, because I have to in order to play a control deck in this format. I wonder how many other players have actually looked at how many Humans are actively played in Modern. Almost all of the Staple creatures are Human.
I know if I IoK you on turn 1, and see this guy and KotR in your hand, I'm taking KotR and killing this guy when he hit's the board without hesitation. My Meta is obviously different than everyone else's, but it's a very aggressive format, and I run a lot of removal to deal with it. In order to survive in a Meta like this, your spells need to be borderline broken or straight up busted in half. KotR and Geist of St. Traft are both broken to a point. KotR is broken in the right deck, and Geist is just busted especially on turn 2 out of a Bant deck.
I do not get the same feel from this Paladin, nor do I see how he's much good without exalted triggers or a fatty on the board than would already be a good enough card to run alone. He's too small to really get past anything alone, and doesn't survive Volcanic Fallout/Bolt/Path/Disfigure/Smother, which makes him very weak IMO.
I do see him fitting a role in the Knights deck though, as this is an effect that that deck wants. It also fit's the curve for Vial in that deck well, and gives that deck a trick that can mess up your opponent's combat math.
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He does seem a little underwhelmign for 3 mana in that if one of the craetures dies he is all moot. But then again he is really good attack power and Geist is run just for the sake of having really good attack power.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
You are aware that if the other guy gets hit with any form of removal this is a 2/2 for a restrictive 3 mana? There are way to many ways to kill a dude in this format to make keeping 2 dudes alive worth the time. Aegis Angel is very similar and it sees zero play.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Angel costs 6 mana. Meaning it doesnt go into the same decks. Angel does not give a power boost, meaning it goes in different decks. Angel gives a form of protection. Meaning they go in different decks. Fact is the decks that could use angel has no need for protections. It plays bomb, bomb, bomb.
Aggro decks could use a doublestriking goyf or doran or clique or whatever.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
We are aware of all these things; the Geist Angel interaction, playing him unpaired, etc. The biggest issue with him is that he needs other cards to be good. Most of the time he's going to be competing with Knight of the Reliquary, Mirran Crusader, Doran, Vendilion Clique. What's the difference between these cards and Silverblade Paladin? The fact that they can win games by themselves. Indeed, the card he is looking to oust is Mirran Crusader, but the Crusader has protection from goyfs and half the removal in the format, and still has double strike.
Sure, he might make it in a knights-type deck, but the kind of thing you are talking about is a weaker option than what those decks are already doing right now.
Patch me back to my mind
Sorry to come off this way (actually Im not) but I guess we will see in the long run.
If you are capable of landing both of those and keep them on the board, you were already winning. If your opponent has no way of interacting with you by that point in the game, or isn't already beating you in the face with something, then you are already winning.
The only real control deck in this format is BUG, unless you want to count Fae as control now...
Tron is not a control deck, as U/W Tron is barely playable. That's why they all switched to R/G for the most part. The Aggro decks don't care about you landing this guy or Doran, as they run Path, Lightning Helix, and Lightning Bolt to deal with most of that or just burn your face off. Doran honestly is not that good in Modern. He get's outclassed by almost everything that comes down sooner, and dies to most of the removal in the format, and the format is running a lot of removal and discard. Your 3 mana really needs to be paying for something that can impact the board itself in a meaningful way.
I'm not trying to harp on you, it's just that the format is not what it was a little over a month ago when the PTQ's were still firing off. It's already changed in the past two weeks alone. Not sure about on MODO, but I play a lot of Modern in paper, and the shift from what was playable during PTQ and now has been pretty dramatic. KotR is borderline too slow for this format, and she's the best 3 drop ever printed. Almost everyone is winning with Grim and Geist, or just playing the Tempo game.
Our last PTQ here the meta had shifted from combo being dominant to Grixis Fae crushing everyone. The top 7 decks were all Fae. I saw what they played through all day, and it was a sea of KotR, Crusaders, Goyfs, and Spaghetti monsters. The matchups were not even close. Fae is the deck to beat in the competitive arena right now, and this card at 3cmc is not competitive enough outside of Vial Knights. The only way I see you beating Fae with this guy is to either be cascading into him with BBE, or to have enough discard to rip apart their hand before they can do anything meaningful. One is more feasible than the other due to the double white, so I would suggest you dust off the those BBE's if you want to play this guy. You could vial him out, but as it was stated above that deck is barely tiered, I was not aware of this, as I haven't even seen the deck in action before.
~~~~~~~~~
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Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Sorry, I just don't buy your alarmism. Nothing has changed since PTQ's ended, aside from there being more people running RGTron. No new removal has been added to the meta, no new combo has made any waves. We will soon be seeing a big hit to Fae, and frankly I think you are exaggerating Fae in the extreme.
Double white does not preclude running discard at all unless you are running 4 colors.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I've never seen those decks break the Top 8 where I play. It's not they are not present, it's just that they are not that good.
A turn 4 Karn is pretty fast. A turn 4 kill is pretty fast, these are common things in Modern.
The second to last and the last few PTQ's are when Grixis Fae started break out. Just because your Meta is not changing doesn't mean the rest of them are not evolving. Mine is evolving every week. The MODO one is nearly every day.
Double white limits the manabase you can feasibly run. Even in a three color deck this is true.
~~~~~~~~~
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Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg: