I agree that Tibalt is quite playable in Aggro Loam/Loam Control. I'm tempted to put him in the Faithless Looting slot, though--he does nearly the same thing.
I cannot see RUG Tempo Thresh getting any good use out of Vexing Devil. In Legacy, I got my Delver Snuff Outed and my Goyf imprisoned in hand when I played Tempo Thresh against Team America. I lost that game. Team America was clearly willing to pay 4 life and a card to stop Delver. Vexing Devil hands out Snuff Outs/cheaper Dismembers like candy. Since RUG Tempo Thresh is threat-light, I bet a ton of decks would be willing to pay the 4 life to kill it immediately. Mondo-Lava Spike is not what RUG Tempo Thresh needs.
EDIT: I tested Tibalt in Loam Control, and his -4 and -6 look fairly useless in a deck that revolves around killing all the men on the other side and shredding their hand into nothing. I suspect he'll look better against decks like Tron and Bant that play bigger men, but if your meta is weenie-oriented enough, stick to Faithless Looting instead. It's cheaper and does the job faster and better than him fairly often.
All Seismic Loam cares about is redundancy, which means Tibalt is Faithless Looting 5-8, though more likely he's only going to grab 2 slots in the deck.
RUG Delver in modern is a completely different beast than RUG Delver in Legacy. Your opponents care so much more about their life total since the shocks and dark confidants are all over the place. Heck, I even plan on testing Vexing Devil in a more aggro-based Jund shell, essentially placing the control stuff like maelstrom pulse and Jund charm in the sideboard, so I can get a turn or 2 faster.
Will Splinter Twin want to run a copy or two of the lighthouse? It trades some mana color consistency for a better mid and late game chance to go off.
Interesting question. At 23 lands, with all 4 fetches, shocks, tap duals, and painlands, I do think that it can support 2 lands that do not produce colored mana.
I will definantly try it as a 2 of.
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Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
I don't hate Tibalt in Rakdos where half of my cards are useful from the yard, anyway. More excited about the inexplicably controversial Vexing Devil, though.
I don't hate Tibalt in Rakdos where half of my cards are useful from the yard, anyway. More excited about the inexplicably controversial Vexing Devil, though.
I also find it funny that so many people mistakenly believe that "punishment" cards are inherently unplayable. There have been plenty of playable punishment cards, though they've almost exclusively been blue so far (Fact or Fiction, Gifts Ungiven, Intuition) and are much easier to "break" in terms of risk/reward.
Modern zoo is entirely capable of making both outcomes beneficial for them. Either they let the card resolve, then expend removal on a 1-drop, or they eat 4 damage and Zoo is that much closer to victory. I hope Jund might find some room for he devil as well.
I also find it funny that so many people mistakenly believe that "punishment" cards are inherently unplayable. There have been plenty of playable punishment cards, though they've almost exclusively been blue so far (Fact or Fiction, Gifts Ungiven, Intuition) and are much easier to "break" in terms of risk/reward.
Modern zoo is entirely capable of making both outcomes beneficial for them. Either they let the card resolve, then expend removal on a 1-drop, or they eat 4 damage and Zoo is that much closer to victory. I hope Jund might find some room for he devil as well.
Modern Jund seems much more midrangey, thus would rather a straight burn that can burn creatures
I also find it funny that so many people mistakenly believe that "punishment" cards are inherently unplayable. There have been plenty of playable punishment cards, though they've almost exclusively been blue so far (Fact or Fiction, Gifts Ungiven, Intuition) and are much easier to "break" in terms of risk/reward.
To be fair, none of those are bad or considered "punishment" cards when used correctly, because you are the one actually making the important decisions regarding those cards, not your opponent.
But yes, I do think the Devil is playable...WotC took a card that your opponent has true control over and seems to have pushed the power level to see if it finds competitive play.
Well as if Storm combo needed another player we get a reprint of Wheel of Fortune.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Well as if Storm combo needed another player we get a reprint of Wheel of Fortune.
Because Past in Flames is a sorcery, I combo off on my main phase. Reforge the Soul is probably only going to be cast at EOT (Thought Scour) or on my draw step before I combo off. At those times, I probably have 5-7 cards in hand. Because of the casting restrictions, I predict this card is terrible in UR Storm.
It might be a sideboard option against decks like Aggro Loam/Loam Control, as when it's topdecked against them after they throw my entire hand in the bin with Raven's Crime, I get to Draw 7 and they get to draw less. But I do not feel like basically casting Shattered Perception at any other time.
...Okay, fine, because I get a full grip afterwards, it may have more value. However, I still fear that my new hand will be a relatively terrible hand afterwards (do I really want to chance drawing 2 lands, 4 cantrips, and a Grapeshot?), especially since I spent the first 3+ turns sculpting it carefully with cantrips.
...On second thought, I looked at Reforge the Soul again and it actually has a (at least nearly) playable 5 cmc. Plus, if you cast this and then Past in Flames, it turns into an absolute gravy train. I'm rather used to the magic number being 6 mana, though (PiF + 2-mana ritual), so this makes me concerned about its playability.
...Okay, I tested Reforge the Soul. Yes, the card is playable at 5 cmc. Probe, rit, rit, rit, Manamorphose, Draw 7, rit, rit, rit, Past in Flames is an excellent start to the combo. Now I get to run 3 of each Storm engine and stop complaining about how bad PiF is in multiples unless I get Tidehollow Sculler'ed. I'm also running 2 Simian Spirit Guide to have a better chance at casting rituals post-RtS (especially if I'm up against aggro and I will die next turn). Unfortunately, I have gotten a fair few brick hands post-1st-RtS like 3 lands, Grapeshot, 1 cantrip, and 1 ritual.
...Yup, the number of times I have gotten brick hands post-RtS is frightening. (Seriously, it's like at least 30% of the time.) If you can combo off with both PiF and RtS, pick PiF every time, as it's safer.
Because Past in Flames is a sorcery, I combo off on my main phase. Reforge the Soul is probably only going to be cast at EOT (Thought Scour) or on my draw step before I combo off. At those times, I probably have 5-7 cards in hand. Because of the casting restrictions, I predict this card is terrible in UR Storm.
It might be a sideboard option against decks like Aggro Loam/Loam Control, as when it's topdecked against them after they throw my entire hand in the bin with Raven's Crime, I get to Draw 7 and they get to draw less. But I do not feel like basically casting Shattered Perception at any other time.
...Okay, fine, because I get a full grip afterwards, it may have more value. However, I still fear that my new hand will be a relatively terrible hand afterwards (do I really want to chance drawing 2 lands, 4 cantrips, and a Grapeshot?), especially since I spent the first 3+ turns sculpting it carefully with cantrips.
...On second thought, I looked at Reforge the Soul again and it actually has a (at least nearly) playable 5 cmc. Plus, if you cast this and then Past in Flames, it turns into an absolute gravy train. I'm rather used to the magic number being 6 mana, though (PiF + 2-mana ritual), so this makes me concerned about its playability.
...Okay, I tested Reforge the Soul. Yes, the card is playable at 5 cmc. Probe, rit, rit, rit, Manamorphose, Draw 7, rit, rit, rit, Past in Flames is an excellent start to the combo. Now I get to run 3 of each Storm engine and stop complaining about how bad PiF is in multiples unless I get Tidehollow Sculler'ed. I'm also running 2 Simian Spirit Guide to have a better chance at casting rituals post-RtS (especially if I'm up against aggro and I will die next turn). Unfortunately, I have gotten a fair few brick hands post-1st-RtS like 3 lands, Grapeshot, 1 cantrip, and 1 ritual.
...Yup, the number of times I have gotten brick hands post-RtS is frightening. (Seriously, it's like at least 30% of the time.) If you can combo off with both PiF and RtS, pick PiF every time, as it's safer.
Depends on what application you are using it for. The fact that it can allow you to play more spells with less fear of card value is what makes it good. This card puts more cards in your grave for PiF and will help get Ascension going. I see this card being another piece not a engine unto itself.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Depends on what application you are using it for. The fact that it can allow you to play more spells with less fear of card value is what makes it good. This card puts more cards in your grave for PiF and will help get Ascension going. I see this card being another piece not a engine unto itself.
"Another piece" shouldn't cost 5 mana the majority of the time.
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Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
...Sure, I'll whiff against UWR Delver, RUG Tempo Thresh, a lot of Affinity hands, RDW, Zoo, and more. On the other hand, if I packed Path to Exile instead, I'll whiff on UR Storm...that's it? There's like only 1 deck in Modern that wins at least 40% of the time without putting a single creature on the battlefield (2 if you count RG Artifact Tron's habit of winning with the Slaver lock or Emrakul), versus 4+ that don't bother with 4+ cmc cards in the 75. Even against decks with crucial 4+ cmc cards like Melira Pod, Tron, UR Storm, and Exarch Twin, they can keep plenty of hands without 4+ cmc cards. To me, Appetite for Brains looks more narrow than Duress, and I doubt it will even be a good sideboard option.
...or your mind slaver...or your karn...or your ulamog...or your gifts ungiven...or your...you get the point.
It really is only good against tron though. It's a sideboard option for those already playing hand disruption at best. At worst, it's just another lousy hand disruption spell.
I think RUG and RUW will both benefit from Vexing Devil.
Delver plays better with less lands so I think switching Steppe lynx for Vexing Devil is a huge plus. 22 land lists should prob drop down to 20 lands and throw in 2 more instants.
Good point on Brains being an Anti-tron card, especially with its focus on recursion that normally could make discard futile. There's also the 10 mana mythic that could very likely land in Modern. Its a bit narrow but very relevant to your own specific meta.
I have a feeling that Modern has the tools to make Descent into Madness fun.
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Also, consider that Liliana counts as occasional mana denial, and it starts to become a significant portion of our strategy.
Good point on Brains being an Anti-tron card, especially with its focus on recursion that normally could make discard futile. There's also the 10 mana mythic that could very likely land in Modern. Its a bit narrow but very relevant to your own specific meta.
I have a feeling that Modern has the tools to make Descent into Madness fun.
No one is really sure of what it will be, but Wizards has said that there will be a 10 mana green mythic rare that people will really want to ramp into. I know nothing about standard, but I'm certain that Modern has much better mana acceleration and so it could make a splash here.
Unless you were confused as to what I was referring to, in which case I meant that "Appetite for Brains" is a bit narrow but can be relevant to a specific meta.
Stronghold of Assassins (best translation I could come up with that fits the name and number crunch; "Asesino" seems to correspond to Assassin only) seems like it would be great in Boros and maybe Zoo. Finally, Steppe Lynx doesn't blow late-game! Also results in hilarious combat tricks with dudes with first strike (Thalia, Plated Geopede) and double strike (Mirran Crusader), plus there's always punching through evasive damage (Chandra's Phoenix). It'll also make people think twice about letting Vexing Devil be a creature--take 4 damage now, or if I play the Devil on Turn 4, possibly take 6 damage now?
Bad news--does not save dudes from Gut Shot. (Sigh.)
Nope, life is pretty valuable due to shocks/fetches etc and there are plenty of other good 1 mana red spells. Having it for the phyrexian mana is just dead vs too many decks, unlike standard.
Nope, life is pretty valuable due to shocks/fetches etc and there are plenty of other good 1 mana red spells. Having it for the phyrexian mana is just dead vs too many decks, unlike standard.
My thoughts exactly. Maybe you'll be as confused as I was by Lectry's post.
Stronghold of Assassins (best translation I could come up with that fits the name and number crunch; "Asesino" seems to correspond to Assassin only) seems like it would be great in Boros and maybe Zoo. Finally, Steppe Lynx doesn't blow late-game! Also results in hilarious combat tricks with dudes with first strike (Thalia, Plated Geopede) and double strike (Mirran Crusader), plus there's always punching through evasive damage (Chandra's Phoenix). It'll also make people think twice about letting Vexing Devil be a creature--take 4 damage now, or if I play the Devil on Turn 4, possibly take 6 damage now?
Bad news--does not save dudes from Gut Shot. (Sigh.)
Chandra's Phoenix possibly sees less play in Modern than Gut Shot (both see no play, honestly).. Don't get me wrong, I love the new utility land for Boros, but some of card interactions you're referring to aren't very relevant.
Gut Shot is just a fairly prominent example of a removal spell that kills dudes with 1 toughness. Other examples include Zealous Persecution and Tragic Slip.
Besides, I've seen the latest Mono-U Fae decks adopt 2x Gut Shot to kill those dangerous early plays.
...and by "does not save dudes from Gut Shot", I partially meant that it doesn't provide a toughness boost. (Watch Traft and Thalia complain...)
I think RUG and RUW will both benefit from Vexing Devil.
Delver plays better with less lands so I think switching Steppe lynx for Vexing Devil is a huge plus. 22 land lists should prob drop down to 20 lands and throw in 2 more instants.
Are you kidding? You opponent just takes 4 damage and thanks you for not playing a relevant threat. Lynx is wayy better in that type of deck, not close
All Seismic Loam cares about is redundancy, which means Tibalt is Faithless Looting 5-8, though more likely he's only going to grab 2 slots in the deck.
RUG Delver in modern is a completely different beast than RUG Delver in Legacy. Your opponents care so much more about their life total since the shocks and dark confidants are all over the place. Heck, I even plan on testing Vexing Devil in a more aggro-based Jund shell, essentially placing the control stuff like maelstrom pulse and Jund charm in the sideboard, so I can get a turn or 2 faster.
Interesting question. At 23 lands, with all 4 fetches, shocks, tap duals, and painlands, I do think that it can support 2 lands that do not produce colored mana.
I will definantly try it as a 2 of.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
CG
I also find it funny that so many people mistakenly believe that "punishment" cards are inherently unplayable. There have been plenty of playable punishment cards, though they've almost exclusively been blue so far (Fact or Fiction, Gifts Ungiven, Intuition) and are much easier to "break" in terms of risk/reward.
Modern zoo is entirely capable of making both outcomes beneficial for them. Either they let the card resolve, then expend removal on a 1-drop, or they eat 4 damage and Zoo is that much closer to victory. I hope Jund might find some room for he devil as well.
Modern Jund seems much more midrangey, thus would rather a straight burn that can burn creatures
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
To be fair, none of those are bad or considered "punishment" cards when used correctly, because you are the one actually making the important decisions regarding those cards, not your opponent.
But yes, I do think the Devil is playable...WotC took a card that your opponent has true control over and seems to have pushed the power level to see if it finds competitive play.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Because Past in Flames is a sorcery, I combo off on my main phase. Reforge the Soul is probably only going to be cast at EOT (Thought Scour) or on my draw step before I combo off. At those times, I probably have 5-7 cards in hand. Because of the casting restrictions, I predict this card is terrible in UR Storm.
It might be a sideboard option against decks like Aggro Loam/Loam Control, as when it's topdecked against them after they throw my entire hand in the bin with Raven's Crime, I get to Draw 7 and they get to draw less. But I do not feel like basically casting Shattered Perception at any other time.
...Okay, fine, because I get a full grip afterwards, it may have more value. However, I still fear that my new hand will be a relatively terrible hand afterwards (do I really want to chance drawing 2 lands, 4 cantrips, and a Grapeshot?), especially since I spent the first 3+ turns sculpting it carefully with cantrips.
...On second thought, I looked at Reforge the Soul again and it actually has a (at least nearly) playable 5 cmc. Plus, if you cast this and then Past in Flames, it turns into an absolute gravy train. I'm rather used to the magic number being 6 mana, though (PiF + 2-mana ritual), so this makes me concerned about its playability.
...Okay, I tested Reforge the Soul. Yes, the card is playable at 5 cmc. Probe, rit, rit, rit, Manamorphose, Draw 7, rit, rit, rit, Past in Flames is an excellent start to the combo. Now I get to run 3 of each Storm engine and stop complaining about how bad PiF is in multiples unless I get Tidehollow Sculler'ed. I'm also running 2 Simian Spirit Guide to have a better chance at casting rituals post-RtS (especially if I'm up against aggro and I will die next turn). Unfortunately, I have gotten a fair few brick hands post-1st-RtS like 3 lands, Grapeshot, 1 cantrip, and 1 ritual.
...Yup, the number of times I have gotten brick hands post-RtS is frightening. (Seriously, it's like at least 30% of the time.) If you can combo off with both PiF and RtS, pick PiF every time, as it's safer.
Depends on what application you are using it for. The fact that it can allow you to play more spells with less fear of card value is what makes it good. This card puts more cards in your grave for PiF and will help get Ascension going. I see this card being another piece not a engine unto itself.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
quoted for truth.
...or your mind slaver...or your karn...or your ulamog...or your gifts ungiven...or your...you get the point.
It really is only good against tron though. It's a sideboard option for those already playing hand disruption at best. At worst, it's just another lousy hand disruption spell.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
Delver plays better with less lands so I think switching Steppe lynx for Vexing Devil is a huge plus. 22 land lists should prob drop down to 20 lands and throw in 2 more instants.
I have a feeling that Modern has the tools to make Descent into Madness fun.
-MTG Salvation.
10 mana mythic?
Draft My Cube!
Relevant thread here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=407038
Unless you were confused as to what I was referring to, in which case I meant that "Appetite for Brains" is a bit narrow but can be relevant to a specific meta.
-MTG Salvation.
Bad news--does not save dudes from Gut Shot. (Sigh.)
Draft My Cube!
Nope, life is pretty valuable due to shocks/fetches etc and there are plenty of other good 1 mana red spells. Having it for the phyrexian mana is just dead vs too many decks, unlike standard.
My thoughts exactly. Maybe you'll be as confused as I was by Lectry's post.
Chandra's Phoenix possibly sees less play in Modern than Gut Shot (both see no play, honestly).. Don't get me wrong, I love the new utility land for Boros, but some of card interactions you're referring to aren't very relevant.
Draft My Cube!
Besides, I've seen the latest Mono-U Fae decks adopt 2x Gut Shot to kill those dangerous early plays.
...and by "does not save dudes from Gut Shot", I partially meant that it doesn't provide a toughness boost. (Watch Traft and Thalia complain...)
Are you kidding? You opponent just takes 4 damage and thanks you for not playing a relevant threat. Lynx is wayy better in that type of deck, not close