I do enjoy modern, quite a bit so. I'm trying out a W/U/G Delver deck right now, and Goyf's are pretty good, we all know that. However, they are WAY out of my price range. Does anyone know of good replacements for him? (Note, I'm already using 4 Knight of the Reliquary, 4 Delver, 4 Noble Hierarch, and 1-4 Qasali Pridemage. Is it even needed at this point?
Have you given any thought to scavenging ooze its not bad if you can find the counter punch precon at target or some such (fair warning though that's getting harder as people realize the ooze is "worth" more then the deck)
Have you given any thought to scavenging ooze its not bad if you can find the counter punch precon at target or some such (fair warning though that's getting harder as people realize the ooze is "worth" more then the deck)
Unfortunately, that is not modern legal.
One replacement that I have always used is Skinshifter. Two drop, and it can be whatever you need it to be. It is functionally worse than a Goyf, but can still be a pretty nice board presence.
I think the best option is trading in the pricey manabase you need to run W/U/G in modern if you are concerned with budget and building a more competitive 1 or 2 color deck?
Jötun Grunt is really the only thing that comes to mind as an alternative to goyfs
Dunno to be honest. I just really like Delver and that seems like one of my best options for the build. I'm new here and not entirely used to the navigation, so If you guys could point me in the direction of a Delver thread of some sort, that'd be great too
Dunno to be honest. I just really like Delver and that seems like one of my best options for the build. I'm new here and not entirely used to the navigation, so If you guys could point me in the direction of a Delver thread of some sort, that'd be great too
If you are looking for a 2 drop that has increases in size as the game grinds on, because of the cards in your graveyard, then you might consider Boneyard Wurm. It does not interact with all the graveyards, but it does count the number of creature cards in your graveyard. So, if you drop it early, it isn't that good, but it can be a pretty powerful 2 drop late game.
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Standard: WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern: UR Twinning RU G Venus Fly Trap G U Artifacts Aggro U
The proper choice would be to cut Green and focus your build on making Delver as efficient as possible. Trying to find a replacement for Goyf would only make your build that much weaker compared to the builds with him that were build to support him. You'd be better off just not running a build that works with him to be honest. U/W Delver itself can be competitive. If you absolutely must run Green for some reason, just pick up KotR and build a tool-box around him. That would be far better than trying to replace Goyf with a card that doesn't work the same, and would make your build that much less efficient and weaker.
Essentially what I'm saying is if you don't have him, don't try to replace him, build something that works more efficiently with the cards you do have/can afford.
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Legacy Decks
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Modern
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Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Jotun Grunt is amazing if you're playing white. Problem is if you're playing Delver that means you're probably also playing Snapcaster, and the Grunt doesn't play well with Snappy.
The proper choice would be to cut Green and focus your build on making Delver as efficient as possible. Trying to find a replacement for Goyf would only make your build that much weaker compared to the builds with him that were build to support him. You'd be better off just not running a build that works with him to be honest. U/W Delver itself can be competitive. If you absolutely must run Green for some reason, just pick up KotR and build a tool-box around him. That would be far better than trying to replace Goyf with a card that doesn't work the same, and would make your build that much less efficient and weaker.
Essentially what I'm saying is if you don't have him, don't try to replace him, build something that works more efficiently with the cards you do have/can afford.
I'm sorry, I don't know a whole ton of the terminology right now, what's KotR?
Jotun Grunt is amazing if you're playing white. Problem is if you're playing Delver that means you're probably also playing Snapcaster, and the Grunt doesn't play well with Snappy.
Jotun seems great, especially being out of bolt/helix range. I might make it just straight U/W, but as you said, with snap, would snap really hurt grunt that much?
Jotun seems great, especially being out of bolt/helix range. I might make it just straight U/W, but as you said, with snap, would snap really hurt grunt that much?
Well, it would probably hurt the utility of snapcaster mage more than it would hurt the grunt, especially since you can't choose which cards come out of your graveyard.
I'm sorry, I don't know a whole ton of the terminology right now, what's KotR?
KotR is Knight of the Reliquary.
I second the Quirion Dryad suggestion. It really is better than Jotun Grunt in most cases (especially when you're running Snappies and Flashback cards and you want to keep your graveyard intact).
That being said, there's no suitable replacement for Goyf.
Although, I SWEAR, one of these days people are going to notice Cosi's Trickster. LIBRARIES ARE SHUFFLED ALL THE TIME IN MODERN and LEGACY.
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My current constructed decks: Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
I second the Quirion Dryad suggestion. It really is better than Jotun Grunt in most cases (especially when you're running Snappies and Flashback cards and you want to keep your graveyard intact).
That being said, there's no suitable replacement for Goyf.
Although, I SWEAR, one of these days people are going to notice Cosi's Trickster. LIBRARIES ARE SHUFFLED ALL THE TIME IN MODERN and LEGACY.
Not even joking, I was thinking Cosi's Trickster. Cosi is quite crazy, and after 2 or 3 shuffles it's at tarm's average power.
Cosi's trickster would be pretty sweet. Unfortunately, it's only when you're opponent shuffles their library, which is pretty easy to play around, especially with cheap removal. Now if it got a plus one every time both players shuffled their library...then it'd literally be the blue version of tarmogoyf (if you didn't already consider tarmogoyf to be blue lol).
Cosi's trickster would be pretty sweet. Unfortunately, it's only when you're opponent shuffles their library, which is pretty easy to play around, especially with cheap removal. Now if it got a plus one every time both players shuffled their library...then it'd literally be the blue version of tarmogoyf (if you didn't already consider tarmogoyf to be blue lol).
I agree that it's not Tarmogoyf. But it does have some advantages:
1) It's blue. You don't have to splash for it (which is something that Blue players tend to do to have access to Goyf).
2) It comes down on turn 1.
3) It doesn't lose power when your opponent plays graveyard hate.
Here are things that happen all the time to build Cosi's Trickster:
1) fetch lands. (when you go first, Cosi's Trickster is USUALLY a 2/2 when you start your 2nd turn)
2) Path to Exile (force them to shuffle as you remove a creature)
3) Green Sun's Zenith
4) Stoneforge Mystic
5) Tutors
6) Knight of the Reliquary
Other ideas? Ghost Quarter?
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My current constructed decks: Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
I agree that it's not Tarmogoyf. But it does have some advantages:
1) It's blue. You don't have to splash for it (which is something that Blue players tend to do to have access to Goyf).
2) It comes down on turn 1.
3) It doesn't lose power when your opponent plays graveyard hate.
Here are things that happen all the time to build Cosi's Trickster:
1) fetch lands. (when you go first, Cosi's Trickster is USUALLY a 2/2 when you start your 2nd turn)
2) Path to Exile (force them to shuffle as you remove a creature)
3) Green Sun's Zenith
4) Stoneforge Mystic
5) Tutors
6) Knight of the Reliquary
Other ideas? Ghost Quarter?
Green Sun, Stoneforge, and most tutors are banned or not legal in this format
I second the Quirion Dryad suggestion. It really is better than Jotun Grunt in most cases (especially when you're running Snappies and Flashback cards and you want to keep your graveyard intact).
That being said, there's no suitable replacement for Goyf.
Although, I SWEAR, one of these days people are going to notice Cosi's Trickster. LIBRARIES ARE SHUFFLED ALL THE TIME IN MODERN and LEGACY.
Quirion Dryad is almost never better than Jotun Grunt. Except maybe in the scenarios in which you need to flashback something with Snapcaster, but that would leave not enough cards in your graveyard to pay his upkeep cost. The important thing to remember about Jotun Grunt is that the two cards can be from any single graveyard. If played at the right time, his ability can be used to your advantage. He dwarfs opposing Tarmogoyfs, comes down as a 4/4 immediately (often bigger than Goyf and always bigger than Quirion Dryad or Vinelasher Kudzu). Not to mention the havoc he wreaks on any deck that plays from the graveyard, such as Life from the Loam.
Also, opting for the Grunt means you probably don't need green at all. This will make your manabase much healthier. Though you still want at least 6-8 fetches, just to make sure you've always got food for him in your graveyard. Even alongside Snapcaster, you'll probably still run cards like Serum Visions, which is always Grunt food since you'll almost never need to flash it back.
Now the big question about him is that is his cumulative hard to well, no pun intended, upkeep? 2+ cards every turn seems like a bit of a stretch at times. Is there any way i could keep the counters at a decent count, or should i just not care because 4 power and goyf/loam nuking for 2 is what it is?
Feed him two cards from any graveyard: Swing for 4
Feed him two cards, then another two cards: Swing for 4
Feed him two, then another two, then another two: Swing for 4
You shouldn't need to feed him for more than 3 turns. Don't see it as stacking up. You can remove the cards from wherever is most relevant each time. You'll realistically be dropping him around turn 3-5. By then there should be plenty of cards in graveyards. I would suggest at least trying him out.. probably only as a 3-of.
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Currently looking to buy miscut Homelands, (my wife thinks I'm crazy too).
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Unfortunately, that is not modern legal.
One replacement that I have always used is Skinshifter. Two drop, and it can be whatever you need it to be. It is functionally worse than a Goyf, but can still be a pretty nice board presence.
Jötun Grunt is really the only thing that comes to mind as an alternative to goyfs
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686
for modern decks likely to contain delver
Magic players have made it abundantly clear that their time is worth $0/hour in their opinion, so no sympathy there. -DR jeebus or something
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Standard:
WBRG Aggro-Reanimator Humans GRBW
Modern:
UR Twinning RU
G Venus Fly Trap G
U Artifacts Aggro U
Legacy:
B Reanimator B
WU Stoneblade UW
EDH
WBGGhave, Guru of SporesGBW
URGRiku of the Two ReflectionsGRU
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonGRBUW
Casual
Far too many to list
Essentially what I'm saying is if you don't have him, don't try to replace him, build something that works more efficiently with the cards you do have/can afford.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Vinelasher Kudzu and Quirion Dryad are both good replacements as well. They can often get bigger, but start out smaller (making them vulnerable to Lightning Bolt and such)
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I'm sorry, I don't know a whole ton of the terminology right now, what's KotR?
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In an aggro deck in your colors, strangleroot geist might work. It's double green though, so you better have a good land base to support it.
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Jotun seems great, especially being out of bolt/helix range. I might make it just straight U/W, but as you said, with snap, would snap really hurt grunt that much?
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Well, it would probably hurt the utility of snapcaster mage more than it would hurt the grunt, especially since you can't choose which cards come out of your graveyard.
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KotR is Knight of the Reliquary.
I second the Quirion Dryad suggestion. It really is better than Jotun Grunt in most cases (especially when you're running Snappies and Flashback cards and you want to keep your graveyard intact).
That being said, there's no suitable replacement for Goyf.
Although, I SWEAR, one of these days people are going to notice Cosi's Trickster. LIBRARIES ARE SHUFFLED ALL THE TIME IN MODERN and LEGACY.
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect
Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
Not even joking, I was thinking Cosi's Trickster. Cosi is quite crazy, and after 2 or 3 shuffles it's at tarm's average power.
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Seismic Swans
Smug Sisters
Teachings
Eldrazi Tron
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Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
I agree that it's not Tarmogoyf. But it does have some advantages:
1) It's blue. You don't have to splash for it (which is something that Blue players tend to do to have access to Goyf).
2) It comes down on turn 1.
3) It doesn't lose power when your opponent plays graveyard hate.
Here are things that happen all the time to build Cosi's Trickster:
1) fetch lands. (when you go first, Cosi's Trickster is USUALLY a 2/2 when you start your 2nd turn)
2) Path to Exile (force them to shuffle as you remove a creature)
3) Green Sun's Zenith
4) Stoneforge Mystic
5) Tutors
6) Knight of the Reliquary
Other ideas? Ghost Quarter?
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect
Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
Green Sun, Stoneforge, and most tutors are banned or not legal in this format
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and...forgot we were in a Modern forum. sorry.
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect
Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
Quirion Dryad is almost never better than Jotun Grunt. Except maybe in the scenarios in which you need to flashback something with Snapcaster, but that would leave not enough cards in your graveyard to pay his upkeep cost. The important thing to remember about Jotun Grunt is that the two cards can be from any single graveyard. If played at the right time, his ability can be used to your advantage. He dwarfs opposing Tarmogoyfs, comes down as a 4/4 immediately (often bigger than Goyf and always bigger than Quirion Dryad or Vinelasher Kudzu). Not to mention the havoc he wreaks on any deck that plays from the graveyard, such as Life from the Loam.
Also, opting for the Grunt means you probably don't need green at all. This will make your manabase much healthier. Though you still want at least 6-8 fetches, just to make sure you've always got food for him in your graveyard. Even alongside Snapcaster, you'll probably still run cards like Serum Visions, which is always Grunt food since you'll almost never need to flash it back.
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Feed him two cards, then another two cards: Swing for 4
Feed him two, then another two, then another two: Swing for 4
You shouldn't need to feed him for more than 3 turns. Don't see it as stacking up. You can remove the cards from wherever is most relevant each time. You'll realistically be dropping him around turn 3-5. By then there should be plenty of cards in graveyards. I would suggest at least trying him out.. probably only as a 3-of.
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