This is an old post on modern zoo I used to explain "Budget goyfs" you should find it pretty all inculsive.
Originally Posted by kidlantern
I think Im going to just link people to this post when they ask about "Tarmogoyf budget replacements" Hopefully this can be a indepth answer and save everyone some time explaining over and over again.
In this post I will be explaining why "da goyf" if a irreplaceable card, why it is so powerful, and what you can do to imperfectly replace him (Or her. Who knows)
Goyf is so powerful because he is a beater for 2 cmc. He easily gets to 4/5 with out much effort, but sees play as a 5/6 or even 6/7 at times. He is graveyard dependent, but on all Graves, which is huge. Many times you can cast a "squire goyf" turn 2. That is saying one fetch land probably hit the grave yard. Saying they put out a creature and you bolt it, and also they ponder, your looking at at turn 3 4/5 goyf. A Leatherback goyf. Pretty big.
So why does everyone want him? Low mana cost means he is a beater for all decks. He costs meaning he can be splashed for, and he doesnt have a high color requirement. He's a good topdeck because when hes big (barring hate) he probably will be just as big, if not bigger late game. He gets big on his own, meaning you can go about your business, and he probably will grow all on his own with out you dedicating much thought to it. And thats the real key to him, thus in bold.
That covers why hes so powerful. Now on to why hes irreplaceable. Although there are many cards that do some of these things, none do it as well as tarmogoyf. Others do it less efficient (They cost more, dedicate more to making it happen, or cost more.) Its as simple as that.
Now how to replace him. It isnt as simple as "Fill gap with this", what you wanna do instead is to change up your gameplan a little bit. In Zoo speicifly heres what you can do. Id suggest choosing one.
1. Speed the deck up. Forget the goyf. Fill it with onedropers. Kird ape, Goblin Guide, Loam lion, wild nactl, Steppe Lynx.
2. Get a big body for cheap. couple options here.
Leatherback behemoth- 4/5 your average goyf size. 3 green mana is tougher to pull off then youd think though
Woolly Thoctar-5/4 that doesnt need the grave. Costs 3, means he comes online turn 4. that can stuck. His smaller butt means he might loose the knight/goyf war.
Knight of the reliquary- in the right list, she gets bigger, and has more utility. But is 3 mana and requires 2 colors.
Vinelasher Kudzu- play alot of fetchlands? thats what it takes, but is a bad top deck
Scab-Clan Mauler or Stormblood Berserker Dependent on you doing damage before summoning it.
Garruk's Companion- worse then above but worth putting on this "all inclusive list"
Keldon Marauders3/3 that will disapper but will leave a bloody trail before it goes
Watchwolf used in very old zoo lists. replaced by goyf.
3. Specializing your game plan to fix it.
Jötun Grunt- Makes their knights/goyfs smaller. It would make yours too (which can suck) and its harder to keep alive.
Quirion Dryad gets bigger as you cast more spells. Burn is awesome with this. Bad top deck (it starts off as a 1/1 and you got to start all over)
Kavu Predator Use with grove of the burnwillows. Combo with punishing fire. Has actually won a higher event.
4. Mana ramp instead- Use Noble Hierarch or something to ramp into bigger things
5. Burn. Use more burn. ect.
6. Get a hold of one or 2 tarmogoyfs and fill the hole with Green Sun Zenith. G/W Maverick in legacy does this.
7. Play a different deck. Zoo is good. Zoo is popular, thus it has a high demand. Supply and demand will make cards more expensive. He is used in legacy and modern. If budget is an issue, you should seriously consider building a different deck. Rouge decks tend to be more fun and give edges in "Unknown"
Lastly Im going to add a key words of how big the goyf is. I hope everyone uses this for fun sake.
Goyf of Kher Keep- Kobolds of Kher Keep 0/1
Squire Goyf- squire 1/2
Knight Goyf- Knight Errant 2/3
Highland Goyf- Highland Giant 3/4
Leatherback Goyf- Leatherback Behemoth 4/5
Goyf SuperionMyr Superion 5/6
Tarmorygmos-Borborygmos 6/7
His power level is over 9000!- (none exist) 7/8
Super sayian Gofy- (none exist) 8/9
Sorry, just re-read jotun grunt. I thought it implied you didn't get a choice as to which cards in your graveyard went back into the deck. My mistake.
Also, like I said, we should make a sticky somewhere and really fill it out. Lantern's post is a great start, all we need to do is add more options for different decks.
For example, sprouting thrinax is really great in jund still in repacement of goyf.
I don't think it's fair to nominate a card that costs more mana (even just one more) than goyf as a replacement. It's already been established that there is nothing of Goyf's power level, but we can get close using cards that still fit the curve. If you want to start talking about creatures that cost 3, then we're no longer talking about replacing goyf. We're just talking about good creatures. Is Leatherback Baloth a good goyf replacement? How about Wooly Thoctar? Neither of them are even close. (and neither is Sprouting Thrinax)
You could just evolve your deck to the point where Goyf doesn't fit. In a standard build he is your best vanilla choice. Personally I like Lingering Souls in his spot.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I agree that it's not Tarmogoyf. But it does have some advantages:
1) It's blue. You don't have to splash for it (which is something that Blue players tend to do to have access to Goyf).
2) It comes down on turn 1.
3) It doesn't lose power when your opponent plays graveyard hate.
Here are things that happen all the time to build Cosi's Trickster:
1) fetch lands. (when you go first, Cosi's Trickster is USUALLY a 2/2 when you start your 2nd turn)
2) Path to Exile (force them to shuffle as you remove a creature)
3) Green Sun's Zenith
4) Stoneforge Mystic
5) Tutors
6) Knight of the Reliquary
Other ideas? Ghost Quarter?
Just for reference, Path does not REQUIRE them to shuffle UNLESS they choose to go get a land.
^^ That's what he should do rather than trying to build a deck that normally has a place for Goyf, but is being subbed for something not quite on the same power level and quite functionally different.
Sorry, just re-read jotun grunt. I thought it implied you didn't get a choice as to which cards in your graveyard went back into the deck. My mistake.
Notice that Grunt states two cards from a single GY. So you can split it up, and do two from your yard and the other two from their yard for a Cumulative Upkeep on his second turn. He's GY hate on a stick. You can do the 2 cards from any GY as long as it's 2 cards for each instance.
Honestly, I wouldn't run Grunt unless your area has a decent number of decks that use the GY, as in at least half the decks are either Loam or heavy Tempo decks with Goyf.
He used to be used in Death & Taxes to stomp on Goyfs and KotR. A few people are still running him, but he's really not that good in that deck now, and it's honestly better most time to just play Maverick in that format (Legacy), and in Modern I would play KotR if I didn't have Goyf's and was in those colors. The utility that KotR gives you along with how much bigger he can normally get compared to Goyf is often more useful for decks if they are built properly. You know Nobles and Birds to drop a turn two KotR.
now heres what I realized: This is going to cost A LOT whether I wanna make Bant Delver, U/B, or anything else. Now, to conserve money, would it entirely be bad to try and make Naya control, or is that pretty much dead now that we lost punishing fire and wild nacatl? The reason why I'm curious is that I do have 4 Grove of the Burnwillows already and 4 Kavu Predator for the semi-goyfiness for that deck, along with i could get KotR, and with her, I could probably use Horizon Canopy's as opposed to the sylesnia dual (too tired to look right now) because it has good synergy, is a pain land (i love pain lands) and is like, 1/3 the price.
^^ That's what he should do rather than trying to build a deck that normally has a place for Goyf, but is being subbed for something not quite on the same power level and quite functionally different.
Notice that Grunt states two cards from a single GY. So you can split it up, and do two from your yard and the other two from their yard for a Cumulative Upkeep on his second turn. He's GY hate on a stick. You can do the 2 cards from any GY as long as it's 2 cards for each instance.
Honestly, I wouldn't run Grunt unless your area has a decent number of decks that use the GY, as in at least half the decks are either Loam or heavy Tempo decks.
He used to be used in Death & Taxes to stomp on Goyfs and KotR. A few people are still running him, but he's really not that good in that deck now, and it's honestly better most time to just play Maverick in that format (Legacy), and in Modern I would play KotR if I didn't have Goyf's and was in those colors. The utility that KotR gives you along with how much bigger he can normally get compared to Goyf is often more useful for decks if they are built properly. You know Nobles and Birds to drop a turn two KotR.
The OP stated he's already using Kotr and Nobles.
And if you're meta is considerably competitive, Jotun Grunt is never dead. At the very least, your deck should include 7-8 fetches (since you're already running Kotr) and just about every opponent you might face besides affinity will be running at least 4-8 fetches. Again taking info from the OP rather than just reading 2-3 posts back and giving redundant advice, we can discern that he's building a Delver deck, therefore he will be putting cards into his graveyard from there very start of the game (in addition to his fetches). Jotun Grunt will almost never be a dead card for him, and provides a form of graveyard hate that Tarmogoyf never could.
I'm making such a strong argument here because I myself have been through this same exact thought process 6 months ago when I decided to play Bant in modern. I couldn't/wouldn't afford goyfs, so I did some research and testing and learned how potent Jotun Grunt can be. And this was in a deck with only 7-8 inst/sorcs. But as [almost] any competitive deck in modern does, I ran more than 6 fetches so in a realistically competitive meta there was always food for the Grunt. Over the past few months I've played countless test matches and in one PTQ, and I could honestly count the number of times I've had to sacrifice my Jotun Grunt to his upkeep on a single hand (though I can't remember the exact number). You just have to know when to cast him, and when to sideboard him out.
A $1 card replacing a $100 card that is actually more effective in many scenarios..sounds like a good call to me. I honestly wouldn't run Goyfs if I had them (in my deck, not the OP's). The Grunt swings for as much as goyf, on average (though sometimes more, and rarely less). The biggest thing for me though..is that Jotun Grunt trumps Tarmogoyf every time. Just think about that for a second.
I believe 2 people have, not including you. It's not bad per se, just It's a tad mana intensive (i'd say of course we can if we had green sun) and it doesn't tend to get more powerful than a 3/2 by itself.
I've tested the hydra for legacy zoo.. doesn't work because double green isn't always guranteed in a 3 color deck, and also when someone is using wasteland on my manabase.
Modern doesn't have wasteland, so maybe give the hydra a chance in a deck that can easily have GG1?
How in the hell is Strangleroot Geist even coming up in discussion here? Tarmogoyf is an efficient undercosted beater, that's easily splashable. Strangleroot doesn't even come close to filling that role.
How in the hell is Strangleroot Geist even coming up in discussion here? Tarmogoyf is an efficient undercosted beater, that's easily splashable. Strangleroot doesn't even come close to filling that role.
GG
2/1 or 3/2
1G
3/4 or 4/5
this is not difficult math here guys
Well, I don't know that anyone is suggesting that it's better. Every alternative will be weaker than goyf. It's less splashable and generally smaller, otherwise it would be more than $1.
It is a different approach from Goyf, and it fits into aggro strategies better than tempo strategies. Most often, a turn 2 goyf is a bad play, because it's a 1/2ish vanilla nothing. A turn 2 geist is a 2/1 hasty that is harder to get rid of than goyf early on. Over the course of a game, it will get in for a similar amount of damage if it's dropped turn 2.
And if you're meta is considerably competitive, Jotun Grunt is never dead. At the very least, your deck should include 7-8 fetches (since you're already running Kotr) and just about every opponent you might face besides affinity will be running at least 4-8 fetches. Again taking info from the OP rather than just reading 2-3 posts back and giving redundant advice, we can discern that he's building a Delver deck, therefore he will be putting cards into his graveyard from there very start of the game (in addition to his fetches). Jotun Grunt will almost never be a dead card for him, and provides a form of graveyard hate that Tarmogoyf never could.
My post was directed in the General, rather than at the OP. We see this question far too often for me to direct every reply at the specific person in question, rather it's better to reply generally for everyone.
Jotun Grunt is only good if you're playing a deck that can put a lot of early pressure and close out games quickly, otherwise he tend's to simply flood your draws with fetchlands that are quite useless past turn 5-6. This is exactly why he was getting cut from D&T, because of the tendency for him to be around for only a short period of time, and then ruining your late game draws by re-cycling cards that do absolutely nothing for you in finishing out the game.
I'm making such a strong argument here because I myself have been through this same exact thought process 6 months ago when I decided to play Bant in modern. I couldn't/wouldn't afford goyfs, so I did some research and testing and learned how potent Jotun Grunt can be. And this was in a deck with only 7-8 inst/sorcs. But as [almost] any competitive deck in modern does, I ran more than 6 fetches so in a realistically competitive meta there was always food for the Grunt. Over the past few months I've played countless test matches and in one PTQ, and I could honestly count the number of times I've had to sacrifice my Jotun Grunt to his upkeep on a single hand (though I can't remember the exact number). You just have to know when to cast him, and when to sideboard him out.
A $1 card replacing a $100 card that is actually more effective in many scenarios..sounds like a good call to me. I honestly wouldn't run Goyfs if I had them (in my deck, not the OP's). The Grunt swings for as much as goyf, on average (though sometimes more, and rarely less). The biggest thing for me though..is that Jotun Grunt trumps Tarmogoyf every time. Just think about that for a second.
Goyf is better against most aggro decks, especially Affinity, because he provides a very large clock with a fat butt that makes him rather difficult to remove/race. It really depends on the rest of the deck whether Grunt trumps Goyf or not, in a vacuum it would appear that he does, but most often he doesn't, because he's always a 4/4 with a drawback.
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I did, actually. And whoever is saying it's significantly less playable than tarmogoyf is right. That's why tarmogoyfs are $100 right now. It's the best blue creature in magic (kudos to anyone who gets the reference).
Also, strangleroot geist is not necessarily the best replacement for goyf. As I've already tried to say, it depends on the deck. I tried using strangleroot geists in jund and they just get goomba stomped when they get out because Jund isn't an aggro deck. It doesn't synergize with the deck at all. Jund relies more on heavy, cheap costed beaters that stop aggro. Tarmogoyf is the best at this. The next best creature for stopping aggro for jund is something like obstinate baloth, kitchen finks or vampire nighthawk because they can generally block and kill things and they regain you life. Of course there are tons of other options out there, tarmogoyf is by far the best option though.
That's why tarmogoyf is $100 good. It's the best creature card to run in any deck that has green mana in it, with the exception of elves.
My post was directed in the General, rather than at the OP. We see this question far too often for me to direct every reply at the specific person in question, rather it's better to reply generally for everyone.
Jotun Grunt is only good if you're playing a deck that can put a lot of early pressure and close out games quickly, otherwise he tend's to simply flood your draws with fetchlands that are quite useless past turn 5-6. This is exactly why he was getting cut from D&T, because of the tendency for him to be around for only a short period of time, and then ruining your late game draws by re-cycling cards that do absolutely nothing for you in finishing out the game.
But if you're running lots of fetches aren't you that much less likely to be drawing into lands later? Isn't that one of the big perks of running fetches in the first place?
Goyf is better against most aggro decks, especially Affinity, because he provides a very large clock with a fat butt that makes him rather difficult to remove/race. It really depends on the rest of the deck whether Grunt trumps Goyf or not, in a vacuum it would appear that he does, but most often he doesn't, because he's always a 4/4 with a drawback.
By "trump" I meant that Grunt beats Goyf when face to face, everytime. Goyf is a $100 card because it's very popular, run in almost every deck that runs green. If you land a Jotun Grunt, all opposing goyfs are now a lot less threatening. That's all I was saying. In a vacuum, and in many circumstances/decks goyf is obviously still the better card.
But if you're running lots of fetches aren't you that much less likely to be drawing into lands later? Isn't that one of the big perks of running fetches in the first place?
He's saying that jotun grunt will put fetch lands you already used back into your library. That sort of defeats the purpose of having fetch lands. The cards in your graveyard go to the bottom of your library with Jotun's effect, but decks get shuffled a lot and you may draw the same fetch land that you have already used before, making them redundant, especially late game. I'm pretty sure this is what he was trying to say.
I know it's not in your colors, but I've always thought that Kavu Predator and Grove of the Burnwillows was a good replacement for Tarmogoyf. Having a Grove out can get a Predator to Goyf size pretty quickly.
Awakener Druid is super budget, it also give the forest pseudo haste which is relevant if you can draw out removal with your other creatures. Yes, it is the most fragile replacement ever lol.
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Sorry, just re-read jotun grunt. I thought it implied you didn't get a choice as to which cards in your graveyard went back into the deck. My mistake.
Also, like I said, we should make a sticky somewhere and really fill it out. Lantern's post is a great start, all we need to do is add more options for different decks.
For example, sprouting thrinax is really great in jund still in repacement of goyf.
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Just for reference, Path does not REQUIRE them to shuffle UNLESS they choose to go get a land.
Notice that Grunt states two cards from a single GY. So you can split it up, and do two from your yard and the other two from their yard for a Cumulative Upkeep on his second turn. He's GY hate on a stick. You can do the 2 cards from any GY as long as it's 2 cards for each instance.
Honestly, I wouldn't run Grunt unless your area has a decent number of decks that use the GY, as in at least half the decks are either Loam or heavy Tempo decks with Goyf.
He used to be used in Death & Taxes to stomp on Goyfs and KotR. A few people are still running him, but he's really not that good in that deck now, and it's honestly better most time to just play Maverick in that format (Legacy), and in Modern I would play KotR if I didn't have Goyf's and was in those colors. The utility that KotR gives you along with how much bigger he can normally get compared to Goyf is often more useful for decks if they are built properly. You know Nobles and Birds to drop a turn two KotR.
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The OP stated he's already using Kotr and Nobles.
And if you're meta is considerably competitive, Jotun Grunt is never dead. At the very least, your deck should include 7-8 fetches (since you're already running Kotr) and just about every opponent you might face besides affinity will be running at least 4-8 fetches. Again taking info from the OP rather than just reading 2-3 posts back and giving redundant advice, we can discern that he's building a Delver deck, therefore he will be putting cards into his graveyard from there very start of the game (in addition to his fetches). Jotun Grunt will almost never be a dead card for him, and provides a form of graveyard hate that Tarmogoyf never could.
I'm making such a strong argument here because I myself have been through this same exact thought process 6 months ago when I decided to play Bant in modern. I couldn't/wouldn't afford goyfs, so I did some research and testing and learned how potent Jotun Grunt can be. And this was in a deck with only 7-8 inst/sorcs. But as [almost] any competitive deck in modern does, I ran more than 6 fetches so in a realistically competitive meta there was always food for the Grunt. Over the past few months I've played countless test matches and in one PTQ, and I could honestly count the number of times I've had to sacrifice my Jotun Grunt to his upkeep on a single hand (though I can't remember the exact number). You just have to know when to cast him, and when to sideboard him out.
A $1 card replacing a $100 card that is actually more effective in many scenarios..sounds like a good call to me. I honestly wouldn't run Goyfs if I had them (in my deck, not the OP's). The Grunt swings for as much as goyf, on average (though sometimes more, and rarely less). The biggest thing for me though..is that Jotun Grunt trumps Tarmogoyf every time. Just think about that for a second.
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Modern doesn't have wasteland, so maybe give the hydra a chance in a deck that can easily have GG1?
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That thing is the closest one, but there isn't really anything that can compare with goyf as green 2 drop really...
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
GG
2/1 or 3/2
1G
3/4 or 4/5
this is not difficult math here guys
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Well, I don't know that anyone is suggesting that it's better. Every alternative will be weaker than goyf. It's less splashable and generally smaller, otherwise it would be more than $1.
It is a different approach from Goyf, and it fits into aggro strategies better than tempo strategies. Most often, a turn 2 goyf is a bad play, because it's a 1/2ish vanilla nothing. A turn 2 geist is a 2/1 hasty that is harder to get rid of than goyf early on. Over the course of a game, it will get in for a similar amount of damage if it's dropped turn 2.
CG
My post was directed in the General, rather than at the OP. We see this question far too often for me to direct every reply at the specific person in question, rather it's better to reply generally for everyone.
Jotun Grunt is only good if you're playing a deck that can put a lot of early pressure and close out games quickly, otherwise he tend's to simply flood your draws with fetchlands that are quite useless past turn 5-6. This is exactly why he was getting cut from D&T, because of the tendency for him to be around for only a short period of time, and then ruining your late game draws by re-cycling cards that do absolutely nothing for you in finishing out the game.
Goyf is better against most aggro decks, especially Affinity, because he provides a very large clock with a fat butt that makes him rather difficult to remove/race. It really depends on the rest of the deck whether Grunt trumps Goyf or not, in a vacuum it would appear that he does, but most often he doesn't, because he's always a 4/4 with a drawback.
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I did, actually. And whoever is saying it's significantly less playable than tarmogoyf is right. That's why tarmogoyfs are $100 right now. It's the best blue creature in magic (kudos to anyone who gets the reference).
Also, strangleroot geist is not necessarily the best replacement for goyf. As I've already tried to say, it depends on the deck. I tried using strangleroot geists in jund and they just get goomba stomped when they get out because Jund isn't an aggro deck. It doesn't synergize with the deck at all. Jund relies more on heavy, cheap costed beaters that stop aggro. Tarmogoyf is the best at this. The next best creature for stopping aggro for jund is something like obstinate baloth, kitchen finks or vampire nighthawk because they can generally block and kill things and they regain you life. Of course there are tons of other options out there, tarmogoyf is by far the best option though.
That's why tarmogoyf is $100 good. It's the best creature card to run in any deck that has green mana in it, with the exception of elves.
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But if you're running lots of fetches aren't you that much less likely to be drawing into lands later? Isn't that one of the big perks of running fetches in the first place?
By "trump" I meant that Grunt beats Goyf when face to face, everytime. Goyf is a $100 card because it's very popular, run in almost every deck that runs green. If you land a Jotun Grunt, all opposing goyfs are now a lot less threatening. That's all I was saying. In a vacuum, and in many circumstances/decks goyf is obviously still the better card.
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He's saying that jotun grunt will put fetch lands you already used back into your library. That sort of defeats the purpose of having fetch lands. The cards in your graveyard go to the bottom of your library with Jotun's effect, but decks get shuffled a lot and you may draw the same fetch land that you have already used before, making them redundant, especially late game. I'm pretty sure this is what he was trying to say.
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