Modern also seems to be missing the certain it factor the the other 2 Eternal formats have.
Might be that there aren't any overtly powerful cards like Show and Tell or it might be that the format is become to creature focused and the part of the community that plays eternal formats like a more spell based game.
This is pretty true for me. i do like modern, but there is just something about playing fun efficient spells that i enjoy. That is the trend of magic though creatures are getting more and more streamlined while spells are getting clunkier and clunkier. (don't get me wrong every once and a while you get a gem for a spell. but %90 of the time its just "thats just like ____ but it cost 1 to 2 mana more... awesome.)
What's the fascination with blue and control anyway?
It seems just as reasonable as being upset that I can't play burn all the time, or that dredge is gone. I don't know. I'm going to upset persons, but I love any decisions that change up the game a little.
I've enjoyed the aggressive bannings in Modern to a degree. Not because it I hated any of the things banned particularly, but I enjoy anything that changes up my game. If it was up to me, I'd like to see these things more frequently.
I agree that money is an issue, and investing in an expensive card that is then banned is upsetting, but so far I'd like to expect more of the same. Maybe a little less combo in future perhaps.
I suppose the most common story I see in all of this is people getting attached to a certain strategy or certain dynamics. Ironically some of my friends are put off eternal formats because they see them as static, and some of them are put off because of the bannings they see as being 'weak' or they miss their legacy staples.
TL;DR: The biggest expectation hurdle amongst my play group is the players who want it to be classic (and think classic is 'hardcore' difficulty) and players who want it to be standard and hate combo decks.
I agree that money is an issue, and investing in an expensive card that is then banned is upsetting
I agree in principle, but I wonder if anyone has done any actual math on how much value cards lost when they were banned from modern.
Here is the banned list, broken down a bit.
These were all banned during the community cup that was essentially the first public display of modern. If you invested in a card that was banned from the start, I am not sure how you can believe its not your fault for any losses you incurred.
* Ancient Den
* Seat of the Synod
* Vault of Whispers
* Great Furnace
* Tree of Tales
* Chrome Mox
* Dark Depths
* Sensei's Divining Top
* Skullclamp
* Sword of the Meek
* Umezawa's Jitte
* Golgari Grave-Troll
These were all banned before PT Philadelphia, which was the first time that modern was really a format that is formally codified for public play and not just a one-of curiosity in the community cup. They regularly do wacky formats for these types of events like the community cup, there was no promise that the format was going to stick around and not change. http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/155
No one can really bemoan losses on any of these cards, as again, this was when the format was formally codified. If you bought in on something before this, you were speculating. Sometimes speculating causes losses. Either that, or you had these cards from previous formats and are bemoaning that you didn't get to experience a spike in their price if they had been modern legal, I am sorry, but that isn't you losing money, you bought those cards for that other format, if you were done with that format you should have sold them off when you were done with that format.
(Anyone invested in extended who got shafted by this announcement, I can completely support. But that's complaining about them switching the format of a PT, not about the banned list of the modern format.)
* Ancestral Vision
* Bitterblossom
* Dread Return
* Glimpse of Nature
* Hypergenesis
* Jace, the Mind Sculptor
* Mental Misstep
* Stoneforge Mystic
* Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
These are commons/uncommons. They were banned after the format started, but I doubt anyone could have lost any real cash on them. The best argument here is that you may have had some more expensive cards that these cards enabled. I would argue that a lot of those cards have been regaining their popularity as people realize that they didn't need these cards for the other cards to be good. Grove of Burnwillows has become fairly commonplace in RG Tron, Knight of the reliquary has been picking up potency even without nacatl leading the way, storm is still a deck, as is splintertwin. A lot of the cloudpost cards have found a home in Tron lists.
If you invested heavily enough for the decreases on these to really hit your pocket (buying 100 grove of burnwillows for instance, then losing money on each), you have some case, but it is not as if there weren't tons of threads on various forums following the PT that were calling for the banning of most of these cards. If anything, when you saw articles by pros advocating the banning of these, you really should have got out.
* Wild Nacatl
* Ponder
* Preordain
* Punishing Fire
* Rite of Flame
* Cloudpost
And finally the rares that have been banned
* Green Sun's Zenith
* Blazing Shoal
How much has the price really fallen on these?
Shoal was trash before PT Philly, can we cry if its trash again now?
GSZ still gets plenty of legacy love and is currently worth $7, how much more was it while it was Modern legal that you could have lost?
If someone lost serious money, I would love to know how.
I may have missed something, but as it is, it looks like the moans of losing money are a bunch of hot air. At worse it is quite in line with the kinds of losses we all regularly take investing in magic cards, hell I bet you could have lost a significant amount more due to the metagame shifts in standard the last year than you could have reasonably done with modern investments.
I just find it hard to believe that someone could have been engaging in regular safe behavior, like picking a deck to play, and have got seriously burned. I will be glad to accept that I am wrong if someone can actually show an example though.
I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I guess some people lost money when they banned punishing fire since it also required the GR dual. But only blind people that didn't see the obvious fact that it was gonna be banned.
I guess some people lost money when they banned punishing fire since it also required the GR dual. But only blind people that didn't see the obvious fact that it was gonna be banned.
QFT. I had 8 Groves from the case of Futuresight I bought way back in the day when Goyf prices first started to rise and i couldn't care less it went down.
i've played against a lot of annoying combinations in multiple formats but PunishingWillow's has to be the single most annoying to play against when you're trying to do something creative with a strategy that involves creatures with toughness 2 or less. I hate it in Legacy Maverick, too, but thankfully Wasteland exists there.
However, Punishing Fire being banned makes me think Bitterblossom will never come back.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
QFT. I had 8 Groves from the case of Futuresight I bought way back in the day when Goyf prices first started to rise and i couldn't care less it went down.
I had them from way back as well, but about this time last year I was floored when I went to the shop and noticed how valuable it was. LOL, I had no idea and had to ask online to figure out why.
i've played against a lot of annoying combinations in multiple formats but PunishingWillow's has to be the single most annoying to play against when you're trying to do something creative with a strategy that involves creatures with toughness 2 or less.
I never had problems with it unless I drew poorly, but I am not going to restart that fight.
Says the man who comes onto the forums and post false-to-the-point-of-borderline-trolling comments about the format. Grixis Fae the best Fae? Jesus that was golden.
Everytime I have stated that, I have put this little thing right here ->> IMO.
That means In My Opinion.
You're a d-bag too, but that's fine we all tolerate you with thinking that Bitterblossom would be good for Modern, as well as Jace 2.0. Unless I am mistaken and that wasn't you that trolled me for nearly five pages and four days whining about those two. Then again I'm pretty sure it was you and you just can't let it slide that others may disagree with you. I will not hold it against you, and honestly I mostly forgot the incident until I saw your SN. I guess it was that whole let things slide and taking a mature look at the situation. If we ever cross paths you'll probably notice I hold no grudges.
BTW Grixis Fae won several top-8 positions in 3 PTQ's in my area. Before the P. Fire banning those same decks and players where often seen in the Top 8's of events around here. Sort of makes light of that idea that P. Fire was the thing holding Fae back. In reality it's Tron that holds Fae back.
Feel free to disagree but don't feel free to call other users names even if its in jest. t_c
Everytime I have stated that, I have put this little thing right here ->> IMO.
That means In My Opinion.
You're a d-bag too, but that's fine we all tolerate you with thinking that Bitterblossom would be good for Modern, as well as Jace 2.0. Unless I am mistaken and that wasn't you that trolled me for nearly five pages and four days whining about those two. Then again I'm pretty sure it was you and you just can't let it slide that others may disagree with you. I will not hold it against you, and honestly I mostly forgot the incident until I saw your SN. I guess it was that whole let things slide and taking a mature look at the situation. If we ever cross paths you'll probably notice I hold no grudges.
BTW Grixis Fae won several top-8 positions in 3 PTQ's in my area. Before the P. Fire banning those same decks and players where often seen in the Top 8's of events around here. Sort of makes light of that idea that P. Fire was the thing holding Fae back. In reality it's Tron that holds Fae back.
Grixis Fearies is pretty good, dude. Especially when PKFire was legal, no doubt.
That doesn't change the fact that you just called two people in the same thread douche bags. I don't even know what I did to merit being called a feminine hygiene product, but hey.
I also have no problem with you or anyone else in the Modern section, btw. But you should refrain from calling people douche bags just because we don't share the same opinion. Be a grown up.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I played a game with a friend who hadn't played in a while, he updated a combo-y elf deck that I'm pretty sure he netdecked like three years ago, and I crushed his soul with three different decks, multiple times. He's a sore loser, and won't play Magic any more at all. Like, sorry my well-tuned decks crushed your day 1 elf tricks deck with an obvious, disruptable gameplan. He thinks it has something to do with me having money cards, which is hilarious - I play Affinity without Ravager, mostly, and the other two decks only had decent mana bases, not really anything more expensive than his Goyfs and Fetches, so whatever. He's mostly a casual Standard player, so I get that the barrier to entry is cost, but he was proxying whatever he didn't have anyway since it was short notice. I think he's intimidated by the large card pool and variety of threats you have to deal with - he got run over by aggro Affinity, out controlled by UBR Teachings control, and baffled into the ground by MartyrProc. He was expecting something casual, which in his mind turns out means "I win or don't play," which is a really weird mentality.
This I think is more a problem with him, and is something his friends have told me is common.
You beat a 3 year old deck... cool... I guess...
You also sound like a neckbeard mouthbreather that takes things too serious.
Cool if I give a citation to myself on this one mtgs? Cause the post is is dreadfull.
I think this thread has more than served its purpose.
Thread Closed
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():
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
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This is pretty true for me. i do like modern, but there is just something about playing fun efficient spells that i enjoy. That is the trend of magic though creatures are getting more and more streamlined while spells are getting clunkier and clunkier. (don't get me wrong every once and a while you get a gem for a spell. but %90 of the time its just "thats just like ____ but it cost 1 to 2 mana more... awesome.)
It seems just as reasonable as being upset that I can't play burn all the time, or that dredge is gone. I don't know. I'm going to upset persons, but I love any decisions that change up the game a little.
I've enjoyed the aggressive bannings in Modern to a degree. Not because it I hated any of the things banned particularly, but I enjoy anything that changes up my game. If it was up to me, I'd like to see these things more frequently.
I agree that money is an issue, and investing in an expensive card that is then banned is upsetting, but so far I'd like to expect more of the same. Maybe a little less combo in future perhaps.
I suppose the most common story I see in all of this is people getting attached to a certain strategy or certain dynamics. Ironically some of my friends are put off eternal formats because they see them as static, and some of them are put off because of the bannings they see as being 'weak' or they miss their legacy staples.
TL;DR: The biggest expectation hurdle amongst my play group is the players who want it to be classic (and think classic is 'hardcore' difficulty) and players who want it to be standard and hate combo decks.
I agree in principle, but I wonder if anyone has done any actual math on how much value cards lost when they were banned from modern.
Here is the banned list, broken down a bit.
These were all banned during the community cup that was essentially the first public display of modern. If you invested in a card that was banned from the start, I am not sure how you can believe its not your fault for any losses you incurred.
* Ancient Den
* Seat of the Synod
* Vault of Whispers
* Great Furnace
* Tree of Tales
* Chrome Mox
* Dark Depths
* Sensei's Divining Top
* Skullclamp
* Sword of the Meek
* Umezawa's Jitte
* Golgari Grave-Troll
These were all banned before PT Philadelphia, which was the first time that modern was really a format that is formally codified for public play and not just a one-of curiosity in the community cup. They regularly do wacky formats for these types of events like the community cup, there was no promise that the format was going to stick around and not change.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/155
No one can really bemoan losses on any of these cards, as again, this was when the format was formally codified. If you bought in on something before this, you were speculating. Sometimes speculating causes losses. Either that, or you had these cards from previous formats and are bemoaning that you didn't get to experience a spike in their price if they had been modern legal, I am sorry, but that isn't you losing money, you bought those cards for that other format, if you were done with that format you should have sold them off when you were done with that format.
(Anyone invested in extended who got shafted by this announcement, I can completely support. But that's complaining about them switching the format of a PT, not about the banned list of the modern format.)
* Ancestral Vision
* Bitterblossom
* Dread Return
* Glimpse of Nature
* Hypergenesis
* Jace, the Mind Sculptor
* Mental Misstep
* Stoneforge Mystic
* Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
These are commons/uncommons. They were banned after the format started, but I doubt anyone could have lost any real cash on them. The best argument here is that you may have had some more expensive cards that these cards enabled. I would argue that a lot of those cards have been regaining their popularity as people realize that they didn't need these cards for the other cards to be good. Grove of Burnwillows has become fairly commonplace in RG Tron, Knight of the reliquary has been picking up potency even without nacatl leading the way, storm is still a deck, as is splintertwin. A lot of the cloudpost cards have found a home in Tron lists.
If you invested heavily enough for the decreases on these to really hit your pocket (buying 100 grove of burnwillows for instance, then losing money on each), you have some case, but it is not as if there weren't tons of threads on various forums following the PT that were calling for the banning of most of these cards. If anything, when you saw articles by pros advocating the banning of these, you really should have got out.
* Wild Nacatl
* Ponder
* Preordain
* Punishing Fire
* Rite of Flame
* Cloudpost
And finally the rares that have been banned
* Green Sun's Zenith
* Blazing Shoal
How much has the price really fallen on these?
Shoal was trash before PT Philly, can we cry if its trash again now?
GSZ still gets plenty of legacy love and is currently worth $7, how much more was it while it was Modern legal that you could have lost?
If someone lost serious money, I would love to know how.
I may have missed something, but as it is, it looks like the moans of losing money are a bunch of hot air. At worse it is quite in line with the kinds of losses we all regularly take investing in magic cards, hell I bet you could have lost a significant amount more due to the metagame shifts in standard the last year than you could have reasonably done with modern investments.
I just find it hard to believe that someone could have been engaging in regular safe behavior, like picking a deck to play, and have got seriously burned. I will be glad to accept that I am wrong if someone can actually show an example though.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
QFT. I had 8 Groves from the case of Futuresight I bought way back in the day when Goyf prices first started to rise and i couldn't care less it went down.
i've played against a lot of annoying combinations in multiple formats but PunishingWillow's has to be the single most annoying to play against when you're trying to do something creative with a strategy that involves creatures with toughness 2 or less. I hate it in Legacy Maverick, too, but thankfully Wasteland exists there.
However, Punishing Fire being banned makes me think Bitterblossom will never come back.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I never had problems with it unless I drew poorly, but I am not going to restart that fight.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Everytime I have stated that, I have put this little thing right here ->> IMO.
That means In My Opinion.
You're a d-bag too, but that's fine we all tolerate you with thinking that Bitterblossom would be good for Modern, as well as Jace 2.0. Unless I am mistaken and that wasn't you that trolled me for nearly five pages and four days whining about those two. Then again I'm pretty sure it was you and you just can't let it slide that others may disagree with you. I will not hold it against you, and honestly I mostly forgot the incident until I saw your SN. I guess it was that whole let things slide and taking a mature look at the situation. If we ever cross paths you'll probably notice I hold no grudges.
BTW Grixis Fae won several top-8 positions in 3 PTQ's in my area. Before the P. Fire banning those same decks and players where often seen in the Top 8's of events around here. Sort of makes light of that idea that P. Fire was the thing holding Fae back. In reality it's Tron that holds Fae back.
Feel free to disagree but don't feel free to call other users names even if its in jest. t_c
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
Grixis Fearies is pretty good, dude. Especially when PKFire was legal, no doubt.
That doesn't change the fact that you just called two people in the same thread douche bags. I don't even know what I did to merit being called a feminine hygiene product, but hey.
I also have no problem with you or anyone else in the Modern section, btw. But you should refrain from calling people douche bags just because we don't share the same opinion. Be a grown up.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
You beat a 3 year old deck... cool... I guess...
You also sound like a neckbeard mouthbreather that takes things too serious.
Cool if I give a citation to myself on this one mtgs? Cause the post is is dreadfull.
Flame warning. Please read the forum rules. t_c
Thread Closed