Everyone is arguing about cards and decks, maybe we are looking at it wrong and should be looking at power level of the format and not the pieces that make up that power level. If Standard is level 0 and Legacy is level 11, where would you rank Modern on a scale between 1-10.
Personally I feel the power level is just above 5 around the 6 or 7 level (which is a bit high for the young format). I understand you can more or less port delver from Standard into Modern and be competitive depending on the meta, but thats one deck made of some very strong (on the cusp of being banned strong) cards. You cant port a Modern deck into Legacy and be competitive.
I believe Wotc needs to keep the format hovering around 5 to be 'another' format. If it starts to creep toward Legacy in power that could spell the end for Legacy. Lets not kid ourselves, Standard is the Wotc money maker so it will never be pushed out by a 'new' format.
** I would have done this as a poll but have no idea how to do it.**
I think modern is just fine in power level there are a bunch of different competative decks but there are not cards like force of will that single handily make some stategies unplayable modern is my favorite format by far
Standard is Spade (E). I'd rate Modern a Yuda (B), and I'd rate Legacy a Rei (A). As for vintage, just for the sake of it, it's Kenshiro (AAA). So yeah, the power level for modern is just in the middle.
Limited - 0 - Just as a base-line, limited would be around 3. Standard - 3 - Powerful creature format, but the lack of any combo presence makes standard way more linear and under-powered in comparison to modern. Gifts + unburial rites in modern is a "standard" play, but would be format dominating in standard. Modern - 7 - In the same sense that Gifts + Unburial rites would be insanely overpowered in standard, the Most modern decks would get crushed by any Legacy combo deck. Wasteland would pick apart any of the more "fair" decks such as Jund, and Griselbrand would be even more ridiculous. Legacy - 12 - Legacy is the tops, not much else here. Vintage is obviously more powerful, but I'm not comparing that here.
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Lagacy is a wanna be modern format. They take a modern deck and put in some force of will they also banned mental mistep to reduce the formats power. Every formats trys to emulate modern, buy having games that last more then 2 turns.
Modern will become the biggest format, once all the old lagacy players quit, new players arent going to want to play with crusty old cards, and play modern
Modern is basically all the best standard decks of the past 7 years or so neutered to the point where none consistently win before turn 4. Take that as you will.
Modern is MUCH closer to standard than legacy. Most decks in the format are just past standard decks with certain cards from other eras to make them slightly more powerful.
This sounds weird to some, including myself, because looking at the format, it's non-rotating and has a lot of sets, similar to legacy. However, the format and its power level are a lot more similar to standard.
EDIT: I guess if you want a ratio/scale, this would be mine:
The better way of rating formats is by fundamental turn. Legacy is a turn 3 format. Turn 3 is when combo decks typically go off unhindered, Zoo and Burn can nut draw for turn 3 kills, Stoneblade can drop Batterskull to stabilize. If a deck doesn't do something meaningful by turn 3 it typically can't survive in the meta. I haven't played much Modern but I believe the goal was to be a turn 4-4.5 format.
Legacy is not a turn 2 nor turn 3 format. That much more accurately describes vintage. Legacy is more of a turn 4 format, and standard is around a 7 turn format. Modern is around 5-6.
EDIT: (The turns being the point when it is clear that someone is winning and will most likely win the game if they haven't already. I'm not referring to the earliest turn that it is possible to win, as in reality those nut-draws don't come up all that often.)
Legacy is not a turn 2 nor turn 3 format. That much more accurately describes vintage. Legacy is more of a turn 4 format, and standard is around a 7 turn format. Modern is around 5-6.
EDIT: (The turns being the point when it is clear that someone is winning and will most likely win the game if they haven't already. I'm not referring to the earliest turn that it is possible to win, as in reality those nut-draws don't come up all that often.)
Metalworker taps turn 2.
Elves combo turn 2 very often.
Belcher is turn 1.
Sneak and Show can griselbrand / emrakul turn 2.
Reanimator reanimates turn 2.
RUG and Stoneblade which are among slower aggro decks in the format have only 2 turns to establish control.
Metalworker taps turn 2.
Elves combo turn 2 very often.
Belcher is turn 1.
Sneak and Show can griselbrand / emrakul turn 2.
Reanimator reanimates turn 2.
RUG and Stoneblade which are among slower aggro decks in the format have only 2 turns to establish control.
All the examples you named are very situational. Again, I'm not talking about the soonest a deck can win. I'm talking about the time it takes for a deck to consistently win. For all your examples, you can add on another turn, and you get what normally happens; especially if your opponent is playing a proper deck that has some form of disruption in it.
What I'm saying is; if you watch a legacy match, on average, the turn in which it becomes clear who will most likely win is turn 4. Again, on average. Sometimes, like with control, it'll take longer than 4 turns to get to that point. With other decks it can can take less time, like belcher, storm, and some of the other decks you listed if they get a good hand. But for the most part, around turn 4.
And this applies to the other formats I listed; standard turn 6-7, vintage turn 2-3, and modern turn 5-6.
All the examples you named are very situational. Again, I'm not talking about the soonest a deck can win. I'm talking about the time it takes for a deck to consistently win. For all your examples, you can add on another turn, and you get what normally happens; especially if your opponent is playing a proper deck that has some form of disruption in it.
What I'm saying is; if you watch a legacy match, on average, the turn in which it becomes clear who will most likely win is turn 4. Again, on average. Sometimes, like with control, it'll take longer than 4 turns to get to that point. With other decks it can can take less time, like belcher, storm, and some of the other decks you listed if they get a good hand. But for the most part, around turn 4.
And this applies to the other formats I listed; standard turn 6-7, vintage turn 2-3, and modern turn 5-6.
The original mission statement for Modern stated that Legacy was a turn 3 format and they wanted modern to be a turn 4 format.
I don't think you understand the current Legacy metagame. You can argue that RUG is aggro (it's listed there in the forum, but in reality it's tempo), but Stoneblade? Seriously, this deck has too much control tools to be considered as an aggro deck.
Your numbers only applys to goldfishing. In reality most non combo decks play heavy disruption in form of counters and discard. So Belcher going off on T1 will insta lose against an oponent drawing FoW on the play and against Spell Pierce or Brainstorm into FoW on the draw. And Elves, while a powerfull deck, can be even disrupted by creature removal. Not to mention midrange decks against tempo decks. So I think tomathan88 is right with his asumption.
backing Tom too. On average combo decks kill you turn 4. yes they can do it turn 2, they can do it turn 8. Judging when a deck can soonist kill you (zoo does it sometimes on turn 4, affinity sometimes on turn 2-3) is a bad way to go about it. Conicistancy is much better, in which modern is a turn 5 or 6 format, because thats when we see mostly likely who is ahead. Legacy is around 4. that I agree with... however with the game built on luck as well as skill, things can change, but until turn 4 in legacy, and turn 5/6 in modern, its still anyones game.
I don't think you understand the current Legacy metagame. You can argue that RUG is aggro (it's listed there in the forum, but in reality it's tempo), but Stoneblade? Seriously, this deck has too much control tools to be considered as an aggro deck.
Your numbers only applys to goldfishing. In reality most non combo decks play heavy disruption in form of counters and discard. So Belcher going off on T1 will insta lose against an oponent drawing FoW on the play and against Spell Pierce or Brainstorm into FoW on the draw. And Elves, while a powerfull deck, can be even disrupted by creature removal. Not to mention midrange decks against tempo decks. So I think tomathan88 is right with his asumption.
backing Tom too. On average combo decks kill you turn 4. yes they can do it turn 2, they can do it turn 8. Judging when a deck can soonist kill you (zoo does it sometimes on turn 4, affinity sometimes on turn 2-3) is a bad way to go about it. Conicistancy is much better, in which modern is a turn 5 or 6 format, because thats when we see mostly likely who is ahead. Legacy is around 4. that I agree with... however with the game built on luck as well as skill, things can change, but until turn 4 in legacy, and turn 5/6 in modern, its still anyones game.
The original mission statement for Modern stated that Legacy was a turn 3 format and they wanted modern to be a turn 4 format.
I suppose it all depends on what you mean by "turn X format", but my way makes the most sense IMO. If you base what turn you need to establish power by on the lucky goldfishing of combo decks, you're really not being accurate.
Besides, the ratios are about the same in either case, so it doesn't matter too much.
Standard = 0
Modern = 3
Small Block Extended = 4
Big Block Extended = 6
Legacy = 9
Vintage = 10
I've played all of these formats extensively, and that's how I'd rank them. My favorite was the "big" extended, so I obviously wish Modern would be more in the middle between t2 and legacy, like extended was. It definitely feels more like standard than Legacy. Your standard deck will probably do OK in modern (if it isn't already banned, ROFL) but your modern deck doesn't stand a chance in Legacy.
It's also fairly tough to judge modern, since the banned list isn't very consistent in terms of power level. Tron can be casting Karn on turn 3, Jund can play Goyf Bloodbraid and Bob, Storm/Twin can kill you on turn 3/4 but control decks can't get Ancestral Vision, and Zoo can't have Wild Nacatl...so you have to take ranking the format with a grain of salt.
Standard = 0
Modern = 3
Small Block Extended = 4
Big Block Extended = 6
Legacy = 9
Vintage = 10
I've played all of these formats extensively, and that's how I'd rank them. My favorite was the "big" extended, so I obviously wish Modern would be more in the middle between t2 and legacy, like extended was. It definitely feels more like standard than Legacy. Your standard deck will probably do OK in modern (if it isn't already banned, ROFL) but your modern deck doesn't stand a chance in Legacy.
It's also fairly tough to judge modern, since the banned list isn't very consistent in terms of power level. Tron can be casting Karn on turn 3, Jund can play Goyf Bloodbraid and Bob, Storm/Twin can kill you on turn 3/4 but control decks can't get Ancestral Vision, and Zoo can't have Wild Nacatl...so you have to take ranking the format with a grain of salt.
Funny how 2 people who have played the same formats can see the power levels so much different.
Funny how 2 people who have played the same formats can see the power levels so much different.
I originally had Modern at a 4.5, but then thought about it, and realized that if I could show up to a Modern tournament with "small" extended Faeries, UW Stoneforge, Cruel Control, or Wargate I would certainly do it; not close.
Once again, it's hard to judge modern because of the inconsistency of the bans. Certain decks like Jund and Combo are way better in Modern than in "small" extended, but extended had significantly better control and tempo decks. Also, the power level of rotating formats fluxuates, which is why I think rating the formats like this is a bad idea. Perhaps rating invididual decks, or periods of each format? Caw Blade and RUG from before bannings would probably do fairly decent, while Delver ported over wouldn't do so well, since WoTC conciously turns the power level of standard up and down.
Modern is basically all the best standard decks of the past 7 years or so neutered to the point where none consistently win before turn 4. Take that as you will.
Also, Legacy is the mutts nuts.
Legacy is definitely definitively more powerful than Modern. Legacy is a format where you can open with a 2-land hand and be imprisoned on 0 lands after Turn 3 for the rest of the game. It's also a format where the most fragile combo decks can win on Turn 1. It's a format that, unlike in Modern, basic lands actually matter (due to the large presence of Wasteland).
However, I do not believe Modern is a Standard mash-up--Small Extended was much more of a Standard mash-up. Modern has an extensive enough card list that gestalts of cards from various sets like UR Storm, RG Artifact Tron, and Pod decks (Melira Pod, Naya Twin Pod, etc.) are brewed and do well (and even the multi-set brew called Infect Shoal got banned). You can argue that RG Artifact Tron is a Ravnica Standard Tron list jacked up to OVER 9000, UR Storm is the bastard child of Time Spiral Standard Dragonstorm, and RUG Twin Pod is ripped straight from Zendikar/SoM Standard, but Melira Pod is truly unique to Modern.
(IMO, Modern UR Storm looks more like the red, less disruptive version of Legacy's Ad Nauseam Tendrils to me. 12 cantrips, fewer rituals, more Storm engines and Storm spells, same land count, same number of colours used...)
Funny how 2 people who have played the same formats can see the power levels so much different.
Who's scale is the other one you are referring to?
Also, honestabe, I can't speak for either extended format as I haven't played either, but I must point out that there is definitely a MUCH larger gap between vintage and legacy. The two formats are so completely different, despite only small differences in the banned/restricted list. My scale for reference:
Who's scale is the other one you are referring to?
Also, honestabe, I can't speak for either extended format as I haven't played either, but I must point out that there is definitely a MUCH larger gap between vintage and legacy. The two formats are so completely different, despite only small differences in the banned/restricted list. My scale for reference:
Not really. If you were to look at the Vintage meta right now, you might be shocked. The format really has become Legacy with Moxen. Canadian Thesh, Midrange Bant Stoneforge, UW Stoneforge Control, BUG Tempo, and UR Landstill are all tier one archtypes new to the format. The printing of Mental Misstep, SPell Pierce, Flusterstorm, and Mindbreak trap really did away with all the truly unfair decks in the format. Creatures are EVERYWHERE right now. The format has slowed considerably, and I think my list is accurate.
Not really. If you were to look at the Vintage meta right now, you might be shocked. The format really has become Legacy with Moxen. Canadian Thesh, Midrange Bant Stoneforge, UW Stoneforge Control, BUG Tempo, and UR Landstill are all tier one archtypes new to the format. The printing of Mental Misstep, SPell Pierce, Flusterstorm, and Mindbreak trap really did away with all the truly unfair decks in the format. Creatures are EVERYWHERE right now. The format has slowed considerably, and I think my list is accurate.
Vintage is slightly off topic; can you PM me the source for your info?
Personally I feel the power level is just above 5 around the 6 or 7 level (which is a bit high for the young format). I understand you can more or less port delver from Standard into Modern and be competitive depending on the meta, but thats one deck made of some very strong (on the cusp of being banned strong) cards. You cant port a Modern deck into Legacy and be competitive.
I believe Wotc needs to keep the format hovering around 5 to be 'another' format. If it starts to creep toward Legacy in power that could spell the end for Legacy. Lets not kid ourselves, Standard is the Wotc money maker so it will never be pushed out by a 'new' format.
** I would have done this as a poll but have no idea how to do it.**
0-20
Block = 0
Standard = 8
Modern = 14
Legacy = 17
Vintage = 20
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
Standard - 3 - Powerful creature format, but the lack of any combo presence makes standard way more linear and under-powered in comparison to modern. Gifts + unburial rites in modern is a "standard" play, but would be format dominating in standard.
Modern - 7 - In the same sense that Gifts + Unburial rites would be insanely overpowered in standard, the Most modern decks would get crushed by any Legacy combo deck. Wasteland would pick apart any of the more "fair" decks such as Jund, and Griselbrand would be even more ridiculous.
Legacy - 12 - Legacy is the tops, not much else here. Vintage is obviously more powerful, but I'm not comparing that here.
Modern will become the biggest format, once all the old lagacy players quit, new players arent going to want to play with crusty old cards, and play modern
Standard: 4
Modern: 6
Legacy: Whatever number is impossible for 6 to beat.
Also, Legacy is the mutts nuts.
This sounds weird to some, including myself, because looking at the format, it's non-rotating and has a lot of sets, similar to legacy. However, the format and its power level are a lot more similar to standard.
EDIT: I guess if you want a ratio/scale, this would be mine:
Block Constructed: 0
Standard: 2
Modern: 6
Legacy: 13
Vintage: 20
EDIT: (The turns being the point when it is clear that someone is winning and will most likely win the game if they haven't already. I'm not referring to the earliest turn that it is possible to win, as in reality those nut-draws don't come up all that often.)
Metalworker taps turn 2.
Elves combo turn 2 very often.
Belcher is turn 1.
Sneak and Show can griselbrand / emrakul turn 2.
Reanimator reanimates turn 2.
RUG and Stoneblade which are among slower aggro decks in the format have only 2 turns to establish control.
All the examples you named are very situational. Again, I'm not talking about the soonest a deck can win. I'm talking about the time it takes for a deck to consistently win. For all your examples, you can add on another turn, and you get what normally happens; especially if your opponent is playing a proper deck that has some form of disruption in it.
What I'm saying is; if you watch a legacy match, on average, the turn in which it becomes clear who will most likely win is turn 4. Again, on average. Sometimes, like with control, it'll take longer than 4 turns to get to that point. With other decks it can can take less time, like belcher, storm, and some of the other decks you listed if they get a good hand. But for the most part, around turn 4.
And this applies to the other formats I listed; standard turn 6-7, vintage turn 2-3, and modern turn 5-6.
The original mission statement for Modern stated that Legacy was a turn 3 format and they wanted modern to be a turn 4 format.
backing Tom too. On average combo decks kill you turn 4. yes they can do it turn 2, they can do it turn 8. Judging when a deck can soonist kill you (zoo does it sometimes on turn 4, affinity sometimes on turn 2-3) is a bad way to go about it. Conicistancy is much better, in which modern is a turn 5 or 6 format, because thats when we see mostly likely who is ahead. Legacy is around 4. that I agree with... however with the game built on luck as well as skill, things can change, but until turn 4 in legacy, and turn 5/6 in modern, its still anyones game.
Yeah, you guys get it. Thanks
I suppose it all depends on what you mean by "turn X format", but my way makes the most sense IMO. If you base what turn you need to establish power by on the lucky goldfishing of combo decks, you're really not being accurate.
Besides, the ratios are about the same in either case, so it doesn't matter too much.
Modern = 3
Small Block Extended = 4
Big Block Extended = 6
Legacy = 9
Vintage = 10
I've played all of these formats extensively, and that's how I'd rank them. My favorite was the "big" extended, so I obviously wish Modern would be more in the middle between t2 and legacy, like extended was. It definitely feels more like standard than Legacy. Your standard deck will probably do OK in modern (if it isn't already banned, ROFL) but your modern deck doesn't stand a chance in Legacy.
It's also fairly tough to judge modern, since the banned list isn't very consistent in terms of power level. Tron can be casting Karn on turn 3, Jund can play Goyf Bloodbraid and Bob, Storm/Twin can kill you on turn 3/4 but control decks can't get Ancestral Vision, and Zoo can't have Wild Nacatl...so you have to take ranking the format with a grain of salt.
Funny how 2 people who have played the same formats can see the power levels so much different.
I originally had Modern at a 4.5, but then thought about it, and realized that if I could show up to a Modern tournament with "small" extended Faeries, UW Stoneforge, Cruel Control, or Wargate I would certainly do it; not close.
Once again, it's hard to judge modern because of the inconsistency of the bans. Certain decks like Jund and Combo are way better in Modern than in "small" extended, but extended had significantly better control and tempo decks. Also, the power level of rotating formats fluxuates, which is why I think rating the formats like this is a bad idea. Perhaps rating invididual decks, or periods of each format? Caw Blade and RUG from before bannings would probably do fairly decent, while Delver ported over wouldn't do so well, since WoTC conciously turns the power level of standard up and down.
Legacy is definitely definitively more powerful than Modern. Legacy is a format where you can open with a 2-land hand and be imprisoned on 0 lands after Turn 3 for the rest of the game. It's also a format where the most fragile combo decks can win on Turn 1. It's a format that, unlike in Modern, basic lands actually matter (due to the large presence of Wasteland).
However, I do not believe Modern is a Standard mash-up--Small Extended was much more of a Standard mash-up. Modern has an extensive enough card list that gestalts of cards from various sets like UR Storm, RG Artifact Tron, and Pod decks (Melira Pod, Naya Twin Pod, etc.) are brewed and do well (and even the multi-set brew called Infect Shoal got banned). You can argue that RG Artifact Tron is a Ravnica Standard Tron list jacked up to OVER 9000, UR Storm is the bastard child of Time Spiral Standard Dragonstorm, and RUG Twin Pod is ripped straight from Zendikar/SoM Standard, but Melira Pod is truly unique to Modern.
(IMO, Modern UR Storm looks more like the red, less disruptive version of Legacy's Ad Nauseam Tendrils to me. 12 cantrips, fewer rituals, more Storm engines and Storm spells, same land count, same number of colours used...)
Who's scale is the other one you are referring to?
Also, honestabe, I can't speak for either extended format as I haven't played either, but I must point out that there is definitely a MUCH larger gap between vintage and legacy. The two formats are so completely different, despite only small differences in the banned/restricted list. My scale for reference:
Block Constructed: 0
Standard: 2
Modern: 6
Legacy: 13
Vintage: 20
Meh actually maybe not that big. Updated scale:
Block Constructed: 0
Standard: 2
Modern: 7
Legacy: 15
Vintage: 20
Not really. If you were to look at the Vintage meta right now, you might be shocked. The format really has become Legacy with Moxen. Canadian Thesh, Midrange Bant Stoneforge, UW Stoneforge Control, BUG Tempo, and UR Landstill are all tier one archtypes new to the format. The printing of Mental Misstep, SPell Pierce, Flusterstorm, and Mindbreak trap really did away with all the truly unfair decks in the format. Creatures are EVERYWHERE right now. The format has slowed considerably, and I think my list is accurate.
Vintage is slightly off topic; can you PM me the source for your info?