Who's scale is the other one you are referring to?
Also, honestabe, I can't speak for either extended format as I haven't played either, but I must point out that there is definitely a MUCH larger gap between vintage and legacy. The two formats are so completely different, despite only small differences in the banned/restricted list. My scale for reference:
I was talking to honestabe's list. In my opinion his rankings are a bit skewed. He thinks the format is underpowered and I think its a tad over powered. I dont want Legacy type power in Modern, it seems some do tho.
I was talking to honestabe's list. In my opinion his rankings are a bit skewed. He thinks the format is underpowered and I think its a tad over powered. I dont want Legacy type power in Modern, it seems some do tho.
I literally said I wish it was more like Extended. Idk where you keep thinking I want modern to be like Legacy, but you're going to have to come up with a new go-to argument to repeatedly devolve into, since I literally explained and showed with numbers where I think the power level is, and where I'd like it to be.
I literally said I wish it was more like Extended. Idk where you keep thinking I want modern to be like Legacy, but you're going to have to come up with a new go-to argument to repeatedly devolve into, since I literally explained and showed with numbers where I think the power level is, and where I'd like it to be.
First I am going ot assume you mean old 'big' extended, because small extended sucked hard.
Second you understand with a non-rotating format you cant start with a power level that high. Its only going to get higher as time goes by and cards are added to it.
You have big block extended listed as a 6 which is exactly where I feel Modern is right now, and I feel 6 is a bit too high. It should be closer to 5, but I can work with 6 as long as we have the diversity we have. If Wotc unbanned all the cards you want unbanned the format would be upwards of an 8 or 9 with legacy not too far off.
First I am going ot assume you mean old 'big' extended, because small extended sucked hard.
Second you understand with a non-rotating format you cant start with a power level that high. Its only going to get higher as time goes by and cards are added to it.
You have big block extended listed as a 6 which is exactly where I feel Modern is right now, and I feel 6 is a bit too high. It should be closer to 5, but I can work with 6 as long as we have the diversity we have. If Wotc unbanned all the cards you want unbanned the format would be upwards of an 8 or 9 with legacy not too far off.
I understand that, but he said he wanted Modern to be the same level as extended (he did not specify which extended). He has big extended at 6 the same as I have Modern pegged at.
Lagacy is a wanna be modern format. They take a modern deck and put in some force of will they also banned mental mistep to reduce the formats power. Every formats trys to emulate modern, buy having games that last more then 2 turns.
Modern will become the biggest format, once all the old lagacy players quit, new players arent going to want to play with crusty old cards, and play modern
Not sure if you are serious here but I actually believe this could be true. Legacy's power level is the worst part about that format. I like the diversity of modern. I may be biased though, I was a long time extended player who just saved all of my cards in hopes that one day there would be an eternal format that would give them new life.
Now I have basically every staple for the modern format.
Legacy's power level is the worst part about that format. I like the diversity of modern.
Not sure what you mean. Most games in legacy are fun, grinding, and some can take quite some time. How is the higher power level of certain cards bad?
Also, legacy is actually more diverse than modern. Recently for a friend I named 50 semi-competitive/known legacy decks off the top of my head. I can't do that with modern.
Not sure what you mean. Most games in legacy are fun, grinding, and some can take quite some time. How is the higher power level of certain cards bad?
Also, legacy is actually more diverse than modern. Recently for a friend I named 50 semi-competitive/known legacy decks off the top of my head. I can't do that with modern.
I mean card diversity.
There are many decks but they all stem from a pool of powerful cards that seems to be (relatively) small. I should qualify this by saying that I am in no means an expert in Legacy this is just an observation from a casual player.
Legacy is a wanna be modern format. They take a modern deck and put in some force of will they also banned mental mistep to reduce the formats power. Every formats tries to emulate modern, buy having games that last more then 2 turns.
Modern will become the biggest format, once all the old legacy players quit, new players are not going to want to play with crusty old cards, and play modern
Thanks for the quote cause you have no idea what you are talking about.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dictators prefer an unarmed population.
Decks I play and stuff.
Thanks for the quote cause you have no idea what you are talking about.
Actually Legacy was scoffed at the same Modern is now. I am not going to say Legacy is a wanna be format, but at one time Legacy was in the same place Modern is right now today.
Lagacy is a wanna be modern format. They take a modern deck and put in some force of will they also banned mental mistep to reduce the formats power. Every formats trys to emulate modern, buy having games that last more then 2 turns.
Modern will become the biggest format, once all the old lagacy players quit, new players arent going to want to play with crusty old cards, and play modern
haha no
There are many differences between Legacy and Modern and have you seen the current Legacy meta? Unless your deck is designed to win turn 2 the games are long
Heck Lands won the last SCG Open and the deck takes awhile to win
There are many decks but they all stem from a pool of powerful cards that seems to be (relatively) small. I should qualify this by saying that I am in no means an expert in Legacy this is just an observation from a casual player.
Legacy's card pool is much greater than Modern's (almost double)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
Given a choice I would always choose Legacy over Modern because personally I prefer a high power level much more than a moderate power level. Legacy is a much more difficult format than Modern is, card pool aside, you have players who have a long lasting knowledge of the way Magic works and they tend to not make many mistakes.
Modern, however, is a port over from Standard and you have a lot of the same players. This isn't my Legacy ego talking but this is more experience than anything.
I give modern a 6 out of 10 as far as power level goes just because cards like Dark Confidant and Snapcaster Mage can exist in the same deck. That's a LOT of power.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
There are many decks but they all stem from a pool of powerful cards that seems to be (relatively) small. I should qualify this by saying that I am in no means an expert in Legacy this is just an observation from a casual player.
Legacy's card pool is much greater than Modern's (almost double)
I believe MemoryLapse has a valid point here. Just because twice the cards are legal doesn't mean everyone uses all the doubled cards. In fact, if you add more options to the pool, the usable option pool size may become smaller because the newly added options are just that much more powerful.
Take the difference between Vintage and Legacy. In Vintage, there are no banned cards, only restricted ones. In Legacy, there are tens of banned cards. Vintage tends to revolve around the Power Nine and other cards that are banned in Legacy (e.g. Oath of Druids, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will), while Legacy is much more diverse. Clearly, Vintage has the larger card pool, yet it is significantly less diverse (there's Dredge, Oath, Blue-Based Control, Workshop, Storm, Null Rod/Stony Silence Aggro, maybe Blue-Based No Null Rod Aggro...that's it?).
I believe MemoryLapse has a valid point here. Just because twice the cards are legal doesn't mean everyone uses all the doubled cards. In fact, if you add more options to the pool, the usable option pool size may become smaller because the newly added options are just that much more powerful.
Take the difference between Vintage and Legacy. In Vintage, there are no banned cards, only restricted ones. In Legacy, there are tens of banned cards. Vintage tends to revolve around the Power Nine and other cards that are banned in Legacy (e.g. Oath of Druids, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will), while Legacy is much more diverse. Clearly, Vintage has the larger card pool, yet it is significantly less diverse (there's Dredge, Oath, Blue-Based Control, Workshop, Storm, Null Rod/Stony Silence Aggro, maybe Blue-Based No Null Rod Aggro...that's it?).
Good point, and I agree; but as a side note there are banned cards in vintage.
Generally speaking, on a scale from 0-20 I'd put it on a fairly linear scale like this:
Block - 0
Standard - 2.5
(New Extended - 3.5)
Modern - 5
(Old Extended - 6.5)
Legacy - 7.5
Vintage - 10
However, it should be noted that the entire question of relative power level is completely dependent on the time periods under consideration.
For example, Mirrodin block constructed had Affinity, which didn't lose an ounce of competitiveness porting from Block to Standard, Old Extended, and Legacy. In Modern, its missing only the artifact lands.
Many people compare Modern to Old Extended. Old Extended in its height was probably more powerful than Modern today because of Modern's extensive ban list compared to Old Extended's relatively light ban list. However, assuming Old Extended was still around today (TSP to INN) and all banned Modern cards were also banned in Old Extended, I'd give Modern the advantage because it would have a slightly larger card pool. Staples like Dark Confidant, the Shock-lands, and the entire "Affinity" list would be gone, and 'goyf would be on his way out in Fall.
Today's New Extended without SFM and Big Jace is probably weaker than the Standard environment that raised the flags that led to their bannings.
Perhaps the most interesting comparison though, is 2005 GP Philly (Legacy's debut) vs 2011 PT Philly (Modern's debut):
Both formats' metagames featured:
- Turn-3 combo kills: Storm and Salvage vs. Storm and Splinter-Twin
- Consistent, resilient aggro decks: Goblins vs. Zoo
- Aggro-control Tempo decks: UG Tempo-Thresh vs Faeries (and 1-year later, Delver)
- Tap-Out Control lists: RW RiftSlide and Deadguy Ale vs. X/x Tron or 12-Post vs
Just as Legacy has made huge improvements in power level from '05 to today, Modern will continue to creep up in power as more and more sets are printed and more and more eternal playable cards slip past WotC and their attempts to keep standard formats relatively consistent over time.
More can be had out of extended if wotc would stop thinking of limited in there set designs and stretching the set to appease all formats, It does need another set to play with, 4(non core) sets is not enough.
Modern is just standard with more use full cards to brings its power level up but TBH Its nothing special. Good cards in standard or new sets if you will will trickle down the proverbial rain gutter and slowly pool in the moldy depths that is vintage.
I would say modern is sorta balanced but the core of any t1 deck can be retooled with old versions of cards.
1-10 I give it a 4 cause the power level from modern to legacy is about as big as legacy to vintage witch is ****ing huge!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dictators prefer an unarmed population.
Decks I play and stuff.
I believe MemoryLapse has a valid point here. Just because twice the cards are legal doesn't mean everyone uses all the doubled cards. In fact, if you add more options to the pool, the usable option pool size may become smaller because the newly added options are just that much more powerful.
Take the difference between Vintage and Legacy. In Vintage, there are no banned cards, only restricted ones. In Legacy, there are tens of banned cards. Vintage tends to revolve around the Power Nine and other cards that are banned in Legacy (e.g. Oath of Druids, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will), while Legacy is much more diverse. Clearly, Vintage has the larger card pool, yet it is significantly less diverse (there's Dredge, Oath, Blue-Based Control, Workshop, Storm, Null Rod/Stony Silence Aggro, maybe Blue-Based No Null Rod Aggro...that's it?).
I keep forgetting about the Ante cards, thanks! (Thank goodness no one gambles with MTG cards anymore...)
Also the two chaos cards and sahaarazad (or however it's spelt).
Anyways, is there a point to keeping this thread open now? We've all voiced our opinions, and I don't see us getting much further use out of this thread.
This thread is a little useless but still don't know if lockable.
Plus, it's always the same of us talking about the same things, everyone already knows each other and what each of us think. Hopefully the world cup will bring some new life to this subforum.
You can close it if you wish, I just dont think we can have a rational debate about the format unless we know where everyone stands on the current power level of the format. As we can see, some feel the format is weak, others too strong, and then some feel its just right as it is.
It has made me realize that everyone will never be happy with the power level of the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I was talking to honestabe's list. In my opinion his rankings are a bit skewed. He thinks the format is underpowered and I think its a tad over powered. I dont want Legacy type power in Modern, it seems some do tho.
I literally said I wish it was more like Extended. Idk where you keep thinking I want modern to be like Legacy, but you're going to have to come up with a new go-to argument to repeatedly devolve into, since I literally explained and showed with numbers where I think the power level is, and where I'd like it to be.
First I am going ot assume you mean old 'big' extended, because small extended sucked hard.
Second you understand with a non-rotating format you cant start with a power level that high. Its only going to get higher as time goes by and cards are added to it.
You have big block extended listed as a 6 which is exactly where I feel Modern is right now, and I feel 6 is a bit too high. It should be closer to 5, but I can work with 6 as long as we have the diversity we have. If Wotc unbanned all the cards you want unbanned the format would be upwards of an 8 or 9 with legacy not too far off.
Note he put modern at "3".
I understand that, but he said he wanted Modern to be the same level as extended (he did not specify which extended). He has big extended at 6 the same as I have Modern pegged at.
Not sure if you are serious here but I actually believe this could be true. Legacy's power level is the worst part about that format. I like the diversity of modern. I may be biased though, I was a long time extended player who just saved all of my cards in hopes that one day there would be an eternal format that would give them new life.
Now I have basically every staple for the modern format.
Not sure what you mean. Most games in legacy are fun, grinding, and some can take quite some time. How is the higher power level of certain cards bad?
Also, legacy is actually more diverse than modern. Recently for a friend I named 50 semi-competitive/known legacy decks off the top of my head. I can't do that with modern.
I mean card diversity.
There are many decks but they all stem from a pool of powerful cards that seems to be (relatively) small. I should qualify this by saying that I am in no means an expert in Legacy this is just an observation from a casual player.
Thanks for the quote cause you have no idea what you are talking about.
Decks I play and stuff.
Legacy Burn
Modern Mono U Tron
Actually Legacy was scoffed at the same Modern is now. I am not going to say Legacy is a wanna be format, but at one time Legacy was in the same place Modern is right now today.
haha no
There are many differences between Legacy and Modern and have you seen the current Legacy meta? Unless your deck is designed to win turn 2 the games are long
Heck Lands won the last SCG Open and the deck takes awhile to win
Legacy's card pool is much greater than Modern's (almost double)
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
Modern, however, is a port over from Standard and you have a lot of the same players. This isn't my Legacy ego talking but this is more experience than anything.
I give modern a 6 out of 10 as far as power level goes just because cards like Dark Confidant and Snapcaster Mage can exist in the same deck. That's a LOT of power.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I believe MemoryLapse has a valid point here. Just because twice the cards are legal doesn't mean everyone uses all the doubled cards. In fact, if you add more options to the pool, the usable option pool size may become smaller because the newly added options are just that much more powerful.
Take the difference between Vintage and Legacy. In Vintage, there are no banned cards, only restricted ones. In Legacy, there are tens of banned cards. Vintage tends to revolve around the Power Nine and other cards that are banned in Legacy (e.g. Oath of Druids, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will), while Legacy is much more diverse. Clearly, Vintage has the larger card pool, yet it is significantly less diverse (there's Dredge, Oath, Blue-Based Control, Workshop, Storm, Null Rod/Stony Silence Aggro, maybe Blue-Based No Null Rod Aggro...that's it?).
Good point, and I agree; but as a side note there are banned cards in vintage.
Block - 0
Standard - 2.5
(New Extended - 3.5)
Modern - 5
(Old Extended - 6.5)
Legacy - 7.5
Vintage - 10
However, it should be noted that the entire question of relative power level is completely dependent on the time periods under consideration.
For example, Mirrodin block constructed had Affinity, which didn't lose an ounce of competitiveness porting from Block to Standard, Old Extended, and Legacy. In Modern, its missing only the artifact lands.
Many people compare Modern to Old Extended. Old Extended in its height was probably more powerful than Modern today because of Modern's extensive ban list compared to Old Extended's relatively light ban list. However, assuming Old Extended was still around today (TSP to INN) and all banned Modern cards were also banned in Old Extended, I'd give Modern the advantage because it would have a slightly larger card pool. Staples like Dark Confidant, the Shock-lands, and the entire "Affinity" list would be gone, and 'goyf would be on his way out in Fall.
Today's New Extended without SFM and Big Jace is probably weaker than the Standard environment that raised the flags that led to their bannings.
Perhaps the most interesting comparison though, is 2005 GP Philly (Legacy's debut) vs 2011 PT Philly (Modern's debut):
Legacy '05
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/events.aspx?x=mtgevent/gpphi05/welcomea#1
Modern '11
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptphi11/top8decklists
Both formats' metagames featured:
- Turn-3 combo kills: Storm and Salvage vs. Storm and Splinter-Twin
- Consistent, resilient aggro decks: Goblins vs. Zoo
- Aggro-control Tempo decks: UG Tempo-Thresh vs Faeries (and 1-year later, Delver)
- Tap-Out Control lists: RW RiftSlide and Deadguy Ale vs. X/x Tron or 12-Post vs
Just as Legacy has made huge improvements in power level from '05 to today, Modern will continue to creep up in power as more and more sets are printed and more and more eternal playable cards slip past WotC and their attempts to keep standard formats relatively consistent over time.
Speculate less. Test more.
Modern is just standard with more use full cards to brings its power level up but TBH Its nothing special. Good cards in standard or new sets if you will will trickle down the proverbial rain gutter and slowly pool in the moldy depths that is vintage.
I would say modern is sorta balanced but the core of any t1 deck can be retooled with old versions of cards.
1-10 I give it a 4 cause the power level from modern to legacy is about as big as legacy to vintage witch is ****ing huge!
Decks I play and stuff.
Legacy Burn
Modern Mono U Tron
These are all IDEAL scenarios but any Legacy player can tell you just because these things can happen doesn't mean they do consistently.
That said, we are discussing Modern, not Legacy, let's get back on topic.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
*nods That's what I was trying to say thanks.
I keep forgetting about the Ante cards, thanks! (Thank goodness no one gambles with MTG cards anymore...)
Also the two chaos cards and sahaarazad (or however it's spelt).
Anyways, is there a point to keeping this thread open now? We've all voiced our opinions, and I don't see us getting much further use out of this thread.
Plus, it's always the same of us talking about the same things, everyone already knows each other and what each of us think. Hopefully the world cup will bring some new life to this subforum.
It has made me realize that everyone will never be happy with the power level of the format.