I don't understand how Cryptic Command is good enough in Modern. I feel like it gets jammed into fish (faeries and merfolk) and U/x control and it just doesn't pull its weight. I was wondering what other people's experiences were with Cryptic, whether playing for or against it, and if people see something I don't.
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Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
I don't understand how Cryptic Command is good enough in Modern. I feel like it gets jammed into fish (faeries and merfolk) and U/x control and it just doesn't pull its weight. I was wondering what other people's experiences were with Cryptic, whether playing for or against it, and if people see something I don't.
It's a toolbox in one card, what more could you want? Counter Drawing your opponent on T4 is nearly equivalent in Tempo to a Time Walk. You can use it to bounce a token (sometimes it's relevant) or you can use it as a Fog that draws you a card, too. It's really strong when played correctly. What's not to get? It's one of your strongest T4 plays in Fae. It happens to pull a lot of the weight in certain MUs.
You can also use it to bounce problem fatties, lands to make you opp slower, etc, it almost always gets you an extra card, can be used to net you and extra turn, and you can recycle him with snappy. Whats not to love?
Its so good i wouldnt play less than 3 in any U/x control deck. A well played Cryptic wins games, dude.
You can also use it to boucne problem fatties, lands to make you opp slower, etc, it almost always gets you an extra card, can be used to net you and extra turn, and you can recicle him with snappy. Whats not to love?
Its so good i would play less than 3 in any U/x control deck. A well played Cyptic wings games, dude.
True. I had a knight on the board, 9/9 was about to gain some trample against fae player at 3. I saced my only green source for a red one to bolt. Boom. Bolt is countered, and knight is in my hand and uncastable.
I don't understand how Cryptic Command is good enough in Modern. I feel like it gets jammed into fish (faeries and merfolk) and U/x control and it just doesn't pull its weight. I was wondering what other people's experiences were with Cryptic, whether playing for or against it, and if people see something I don't.
It's a top-end control card in any blue deck that wants to play counters.
If i'm playing a deck that wants to counter spells, I play at least 2-3 Cryptics in addition to 4 leaks/remands and a few pierces/snares. As others have mentioned, a well timed cryptic is backbreaking, and the only thing it's not that good against is more efficient counters such as spell pierce.
Cryptic also punishes an opponent's sloppy play. I've lost count of how often an opponent will play something like a Knight of the Reliquary in their first main phase, where I can counter the knight, bounce their Goyf prior to their attack phase, effectively setting an opponent back 2-3 turns by itself.
Finally, cryptic is a necessary piece for longer-games that gives control and tempo decks a necessary "hard" counter for when games run longer, and their spell pierces, leaks, and remands start to become dead with more mana available.
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It's a bit pricey, but control decks in the format generally hope to get to a point where the cost is less relevant. I only play it in one deck, as a one-of, but it's in a deck with a couple Mystical Teachings as part of a control toolbox. I search for it in probably 70% of the games I play. (Though I search for Lightning Bolt just as much.) It's a high-end play that always does two things I want, since one mode can always be "turn this into a cantrip."
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I was playing against Aggro Loam the other day with Mono U Fae.
My board was empty he had assault 5 lands a Raven's Crime in the GY.
I top deck Cryptic Command. He crimes me I bounce draw and gcet a spell pierce. He Crimes me again. He drops the Assault again.
I topdeck another Cryptic. He dredges for Life from the Loam. He taps 2 for it obviously unable to Crime me. I Cryptic counter bounce. We go to my turn and 1 draw a third. He dredges again. This time I let it resolve. He crimes I cryptic counter draw into a mana leak. he plays a land and casts Assault which I leak. I go on to win the game and the match because i am able to chain a couple time walks with cliques.
This situation depicts beautifully the versatility of cryptic. and I didn't even need to tap everything down to alpha strike. This is a christmas land sort of scenario, but the point remains: You get to decide how to use Cryptic and because it has options, it is a blow out when it happens.
Leak, Snare, and Remand are all necessary to help you to get to Cryptic.
I had a situation where i was at 5 life vs. A Geist of Saint Traft and a Tallowisp? i topdecked a Cryptic Command, Tapped his dudes and drew a card, which ended up being Kitchen Finks. The next turn, drew restoration angel. I went on to win that game BECAUSE of Cryptic.
So, sometimes it's a counter+cantrip, sometimes it's a fog+cantrip, sometimes it's a bounce+cantrip, sometimes it's a counter+fog and sometimes it's a counter+bounce+fog. So it's good against midrange aggro and it's good against control, but my interpretations are, it's not so good against straight-up aggro and terrible against combo.
It just always seems to me to be an underwhelming card. It buys you some time if you make it to the midgame, but it doesn't help you get there and it's just AWFUL in counter wars. I just don't see how remand, mana leak, spell pierce, spell snare, and spellstutter sprite aren't just better. I can accept that cryptic takes up a different role than those counters, but it always seems too expensive to set up and too difficult to get decent value out of it. Just my two cents - it's good to hear that it has such unanimous devotion, but I feel like a lot of that is residual from its powerhouse days in standard when it was indeed a ridiculous beating every time.
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Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
I had a situation where i was at 5 life vs. A Geist of Saint Traft and a Tallowisp? i topdecked a Cryptic Command, Tapped his dudes and drew a card, which ended up being Kitchen Finks. The next turn, drew restoration angel. I went on to win that game BECAUSE of Cryptic.
Trust me. Its good
This really isn't an argument. "It's good because I did this low-chance thing with it once and it saved me so yeah" is a statement that people use all to often, and it really doesn't say anything. Is goblin tunneler an awesome card because I used it to make my shadowmage infilatrator get though a horde of black guys, draw a damnation, and win from there? No.
Regardless, CC is in fact a good card. I agree with the OP that it's a little over-used, though. But it's definitely up there in power level and deserves to be played in many decks.
So, sometimes it's a counter+cantrip, sometimes it's a fog+cantrip, sometimes it's a bounce+cantrip, sometimes it's a counter+fog and sometimes it's a counter+bounce+fog. So it's good against midrange aggro and it's good against control, but my interpretations are, it's not so good against straight-up aggro and terrible against combo.
It just always seems to me to be an underwhelming card. It buys you some time if you make it to the midgame, but it doesn't help you get there and it's just AWFUL in counter wars. I just don't see how remand, mana leak, spell pierce, spell snare, and spellstutter sprite aren't just better. I can accept that cryptic takes up a different role than those counters, but it always seems too expensive to set up and too difficult to get decent value out of it. Just my two cents - it's good to hear that it has such unanimous devotion, but I feel like a lot of that is residual from its powerhouse days in standard when it was indeed a ridiculous beating every time.
T4 hard counters are bad against combo? How is it awful in Counter Wars? Later in the game it's better than a Mana Leak, you spend 2 more and get a card back; There are no free counterspells (that will feasibly be used on CC) so if it's the last one you play given you know how to play control and understand the control vs. control MU and can read tells, it's just fine, isn't it?
Remand is a pretty awful card on T6-8, is it not? How do expect SSS to counter something of say CC 3+ in Fae? Are you planning on Overextending?
How do you expect Mana Leak to work in the Tron MU, or against a Zoo deck that's churning out Goyfs and GGs on T5?
They don't work well at those points in the game. They work well early. They get you to a point where you can start blowing them out with CC.
The deck that just won a GP sported 4 CCs. I'm sure he found them to be so good in testing and kept them at 4, or they wouldn't be. I fail to see how you can make an argument against this card;
In the new UW Midrangel deck it's probably the strongest card next to the Angel herself. In Fae it's on par with Mistbind Clique. In Caw-blade it's essentially SCM 4-8.
So, sometimes it's a counter+cantrip, sometimes it's a fog+cantrip, sometimes it's a bounce+cantrip, sometimes it's a counter+fog and sometimes it's a counter+bounce+fog. So it's good against midrange aggro and it's good against control, but my interpretations are, it's not so good against straight-up aggro and terrible against combo.
It just always seems to me to be an underwhelming card. It buys you some time if you make it to the midgame, but it doesn't help you get there and it's just AWFUL in counter wars. I just don't see how remand, mana leak, spell pierce, spell snare, and spellstutter sprite aren't just better. I can accept that cryptic takes up a different role than those counters, but it always seems too expensive to set up and too difficult to get decent value out of it. Just my two cents - it's good to hear that it has such unanimous devotion, but I feel like a lot of that is residual from its powerhouse days in standard when it was indeed a ridiculous beating every time.
I think you're making a mistake in comparing cryptic to remand, leak, pierce and company.
Most cryptic command decks already play Remand, Leak, snare and Pierce, or a combination of them in ADDITION to cryptic. As for CC, if you're playing the previous counters, it's pretty easy to get to turn 3-4 where CC becomes live. Yes it's generally bad in counter vs. counter wars, but once again, that's not why you play cryptic where you have leaks, pierces, and more specifically snares for. I generally see Cryptic as a 2-3 of anyway, and playing 4 is pretty ill advised for most decks in modern.
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The card id really good but there are some other counters, see Condescend that are as good without seeing as much play. Before I get trolled I would like to explain that the casting cost of Condescend is more reasonable and Scyr 2 is pretty good as well.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
As everyone else has said, it's a top-end card. You play all the other pieces of disruption (IoK, Mana Leak, etc.), then drop this. It does blow in counter wars (they play something, you tap out for Cryptic Command, they Remand it and their stuff resolves), but it's pretty dang versatile. It's already playable as a 4-cmc counterspell--what makes it better than decent stuff like Punish Ignorance is the fact it also taps opposing dudes and bounces stuff (sometimes, you just need a Repeal).
I only recommend it as a 3+ in harder control(-like) decks like UW Tempo (Caw-Blade, Restoration, etc.), Faeries, Gifts Control, and Teachings. I'd recommend it as a 1- or 2-of in harder tempo decks like UB Tempo and RUG Tempo Thresh.
I actually don't like Cryptic in Modern. (which is strange because I shamelessy first pick it in cube, try to play it in legacy, and have tried forever to play it in modern)
The thing is that the only truly sucessful blue decks are aggro delver, which don't want it. There are no true control decks, which is where the card shines. At 4 mana, it's too clunky vs aggro and even too clunky vs combo.
The card is stellar and offers so much versatility it can outright win games. The problem now is fewer decks can pack it because UW Control has such a high chance to counter it that it loses value. Before I packed 3 in RUG and it was priceless, but constantly running into UW control which generally runs more counters, it just wasn't worth trying to play around all of their counters.
Before that few decks were going to consistenty block it so it was easy to get maximum value from CC.
I think anyone trying to play it outside a pure UW control deck is mistaking the card in the first place.
No matter how strong CC is, it has a hefty cost, so at UUU, unless you play hard control, you wont be able to make it work against other blue control decks.
I think anyone trying to play it outside a pure UW control deck is mistaking the card in the first place.
No matter how strong CC is, it has a hefty cost, so at UUU, unless you play hard control, you wont be able to make it work against other blue control decks.
This is true, but no strong blue control deck really existed until just recently.
Seems like the concensus is that Cryptic Command is an awesome card in decks that can pack it, but due to being 4 CMC and 3/4 of those it puts a strain on the mana base egro relegating it to dedicated control and some tempo decks.
Cryptic Command is a good card in and of itself, without additional support. Format speed could be an issue, but Modern isnt so fast Cryptic Command is unplayable. And there isnt stuff like regular counterspell and Force of Will to make it appear subpar.
The idea is to play it in a control deck where you will get to the late game. Thats what blue control decks do, get to the late game where their sweepers, planeswalkers, and other bombs become live. Cryptic Command ensure some late game hard counter power, can randomly bounce troublesome permanents, or save your own, is a straight counterspell and replaces itself. Saying its bad is a sign one doesnt understand the card well.
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It's a toolbox in one card, what more could you want? Counter Drawing your opponent on T4 is nearly equivalent in Tempo to a Time Walk. You can use it to bounce a token (sometimes it's relevant) or you can use it as a Fog that draws you a card, too. It's really strong when played correctly. What's not to get? It's one of your strongest T4 plays in Fae. It happens to pull a lot of the weight in certain MUs.
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Its so good i wouldnt play less than 3 in any U/x control deck. A well played Cryptic wins games, dude.
True. I had a knight on the board, 9/9 was about to gain some trample against fae player at 3. I saced my only green source for a red one to bolt. Boom. Bolt is countered, and knight is in my hand and uncastable.
I died.
It was sad.
It's a top-end control card in any blue deck that wants to play counters.
If i'm playing a deck that wants to counter spells, I play at least 2-3 Cryptics in addition to 4 leaks/remands and a few pierces/snares. As others have mentioned, a well timed cryptic is backbreaking, and the only thing it's not that good against is more efficient counters such as spell pierce.
Cryptic also punishes an opponent's sloppy play. I've lost count of how often an opponent will play something like a Knight of the Reliquary in their first main phase, where I can counter the knight, bounce their Goyf prior to their attack phase, effectively setting an opponent back 2-3 turns by itself.
Finally, cryptic is a necessary piece for longer-games that gives control and tempo decks a necessary "hard" counter for when games run longer, and their spell pierces, leaks, and remands start to become dead with more mana available.
My board was empty he had assault 5 lands a Raven's Crime in the GY.
I top deck Cryptic Command. He crimes me I bounce draw and gcet a spell pierce. He Crimes me again. He drops the Assault again.
I topdeck another Cryptic. He dredges for Life from the Loam. He taps 2 for it obviously unable to Crime me. I Cryptic counter bounce. We go to my turn and 1 draw a third. He dredges again. This time I let it resolve. He crimes I cryptic counter draw into a mana leak. he plays a land and casts Assault which I leak. I go on to win the game and the match because i am able to chain a couple time walks with cliques.
This situation depicts beautifully the versatility of cryptic. and I didn't even need to tap everything down to alpha strike. This is a christmas land sort of scenario, but the point remains: You get to decide how to use Cryptic and because it has options, it is a blow out when it happens.
Leak, Snare, and Remand are all necessary to help you to get to Cryptic.
Trust me. Its good
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It just always seems to me to be an underwhelming card. It buys you some time if you make it to the midgame, but it doesn't help you get there and it's just AWFUL in counter wars. I just don't see how remand, mana leak, spell pierce, spell snare, and spellstutter sprite aren't just better. I can accept that cryptic takes up a different role than those counters, but it always seems too expensive to set up and too difficult to get decent value out of it. Just my two cents - it's good to hear that it has such unanimous devotion, but I feel like a lot of that is residual from its powerhouse days in standard when it was indeed a ridiculous beating every time.
This really isn't an argument. "It's good because I did this low-chance thing with it once and it saved me so yeah" is a statement that people use all to often, and it really doesn't say anything. Is goblin tunneler an awesome card because I used it to make my shadowmage infilatrator get though a horde of black guys, draw a damnation, and win from there? No.
Regardless, CC is in fact a good card. I agree with the OP that it's a little over-used, though. But it's definitely up there in power level and deserves to be played in many decks.
T4 hard counters are bad against combo? How is it awful in Counter Wars? Later in the game it's better than a Mana Leak, you spend 2 more and get a card back; There are no free counterspells (that will feasibly be used on CC) so if it's the last one you play given you know how to play control and understand the control vs. control MU and can read tells, it's just fine, isn't it?
Remand is a pretty awful card on T6-8, is it not? How do expect SSS to counter something of say CC 3+ in Fae? Are you planning on Overextending?
How do you expect Mana Leak to work in the Tron MU, or against a Zoo deck that's churning out Goyfs and GGs on T5?
They don't work well at those points in the game. They work well early. They get you to a point where you can start blowing them out with CC.
The deck that just won a GP sported 4 CCs. I'm sure he found them to be so good in testing and kept them at 4, or they wouldn't be. I fail to see how you can make an argument against this card;
In the new UW Midrangel deck it's probably the strongest card next to the Angel herself. In Fae it's on par with Mistbind Clique. In Caw-blade it's essentially SCM 4-8.
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I think you're making a mistake in comparing cryptic to remand, leak, pierce and company.
Most cryptic command decks already play Remand, Leak, snare and Pierce, or a combination of them in ADDITION to cryptic. As for CC, if you're playing the previous counters, it's pretty easy to get to turn 3-4 where CC becomes live. Yes it's generally bad in counter vs. counter wars, but once again, that's not why you play cryptic where you have leaks, pierces, and more specifically snares for. I generally see Cryptic as a 2-3 of anyway, and playing 4 is pretty ill advised for most decks in modern.
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I only recommend it as a 3+ in harder control(-like) decks like UW Tempo (Caw-Blade, Restoration, etc.), Faeries, Gifts Control, and Teachings. I'd recommend it as a 1- or 2-of in harder tempo decks like UB Tempo and RUG Tempo Thresh.
The thing is that the only truly sucessful blue decks are aggro delver, which don't want it. There are no true control decks, which is where the card shines. At 4 mana, it's too clunky vs aggro and even too clunky vs combo.
Before that few decks were going to consistenty block it so it was easy to get maximum value from CC.
No matter how strong CC is, it has a hefty cost, so at UUU, unless you play hard control, you wont be able to make it work against other blue control decks.
This is true, but no strong blue control deck really existed until just recently.
Seems like the concensus is that Cryptic Command is an awesome card in decks that can pack it, but due to being 4 CMC and 3/4 of those it puts a strain on the mana base egro relegating it to dedicated control and some tempo decks.
/thread
The idea is to play it in a control deck where you will get to the late game. Thats what blue control decks do, get to the late game where their sweepers, planeswalkers, and other bombs become live. Cryptic Command ensure some late game hard counter power, can randomly bounce troublesome permanents, or save your own, is a straight counterspell and replaces itself. Saying its bad is a sign one doesnt understand the card well.