He's not saying that this is the correct way of thinking, but I know many standard players and a lot of relatively newer ones. They tend to go down the thinking of 'modern is so ridiculously broken every deck is stupid' or 'its too expensive I have to buy all these expensive old cards'.
I try to explain to them many of the arguments that you guys have said (it's a better investment, the cards don't rotate, the prices won't plummet when they rotate out, the format is more diverse etc). They just aren't keen for it.
I wish it wasn't true as I really love modern, but standard players play standard for a reason. It is far more accessible than modern. Hopefully by the next rotation or the one after that this seasons standard players start moving on to modern. All we can do is wait and see imo.
My LGS does two Modern tournaments a month, and both draw a sizeable crowd, typically more than the Standard crowd. One thing my LGS does that helps on the Modern scene is allowing 4 proxies in every deck, this way people don't necessarily have to buy Goyf and Bob. Entry cost is $5 or $8, prize support is usually between 4 and 6 boosters for 1st place, and the deck lineup is compromised of equal numbers of headliners and rogues. People have a good time, and the $800 Jund deck doesn't always steal the show.
A lot of the crowd is made up of people who have been heavily invested in Magic for the past decade and are excited to use their favorite cards again. Others are newer standard players running standard decks.
That said, I do hope Wizards has the common sense to reprint some staples as they've said. In my opinion not reprinting Hierarch in M13 was a very stupid mistake and lost opportunity their part, but I digress.
You guys still don't get the point. It doesn't matter how you try to make it look like, Standard is a far more attractive choice for a new player. As long as it remains that way, Modern has no real future of expanding, which I find a pity and a heavy loss for the format itself. I have nothing against Modern, I actually find it much more innovative than Standard. I'm just trying to be objective and these are the roots of the problem.
Standard is a gateway format, and I've converted players from standard to modern just by pointing out that "modern is eternal so your favorite card/deck etc won't rotate."
A new player might transition into modern from standard after a rotation. The ornate is still young.
Everyone I know loves Modern format. Mostly because everyone at my game store started playing around Mirrodin - Kamigawa, and a lot of us gave standard up towards the end of Lorwyn. We recognized that standard could never be as perfect as it was in Ravnica-Timespiral (possibly the biggest list of standard competitive decks at one time ever) and started playing old extended. Good extended. Not thopter-sword/depths-mage. But extended with Dredge, Zoo, Burn, TEPS, Affinity, Junk-Rock-Deathcloud, Astral Slide, Loam Decks, CounterTop, Plasma-Swans, with Faeries just starting to rear its ugly head. And goddamn, that was a juicy amazing time to be playing magic.
With Standard in the process of becoming mind numbingly dull, (When was the last time there was a good combo deck in Standard? Dragonstorm, Dredge? Twin hardly counts.) And extended also being cut into standard part two, a lot of us just stopped playing until modern was annouced.
What I mean to say is that the draw of modern is that there are power cards. (Until the bannings anyway, but thats a different rant.) You can play things like Kird Ape into Tarmogoyf. You can cast that storm spell to win the game. You can midrange stomp if you want to. Ramp if you want to. Counter spells if you want to.
It isn't standard where durdles turn sideways. And thats the real draw of modern.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
The problem you guys have is that you are too optimistic to see the big picture and you clearly don't have the slightest idea how a human mind works. I think even a braindead fish would be able to conclude that Modern has fulfilled the absolute minimum of its potential. By average Modern is both, far less popular, and far more expensive to start than Standard. Deny it if you want, but these are measured with stone-cold numbers, yet you are the ones too stubborn to see it. I am sorry to tell you but a deck that runs cards like Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique, Dark Confidant, and a few shock/fetch lands are simply better than the same decks archetypes that don't. Saying "I can make a Modern deck for 50$" is nothing more than a straw man to ditch the initial point. There is a pretty thick difference between responding, and making a point, and almost all the responses you guys are giving are exactly like the one mentioned before - just the "in theory it is possible..." type that doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with the real situation and doesn't therefore serve any purpose. It's the same as if I say "I can make a Vintage deck for 50$", and that doesn't change the fact that the average competitive Vintage deck costs at least 20 times that. Naturally this wouldn't cause any progress in the debate, but hey what the hell, who cares about that? That would make Vintage an equally cheap format as the rest of the formats, right?
Nobody said Modern is a dead format, but being an eternal format it's badly limping well behind while it could easily have multiple number of players.
Decks that run Goyf:
Loam
Jund
Zoo
Decks that run Clique:
Delver
Faeries
Bant
Some (not all) U/W decks
Decks that run Bob:
Loam
Jund
Some Affinity
Some RDW/Burn
Competitive decks that use none of them:
Affinity
UW Tron
RG Tron
UR Tron
Storm
Twin
RDW/Burn
Pod
Martyr
Living End
So unless newcomers to the format are hellbent on playing Jund, Delver, Loam, or Zoo, I'm sure they can find a playstyle in their flavor that doesnt use Goyf/Bob/Clique.
Which leaves the only real price barrier for newcomers as shocklands. (If they are coming from standard, they should have at least a few fetch lands. I've personally spent more money on fetches than I ever have on shocks.)
And Shocklands are A)needed in small amounts one or two of whichever one they use. B)Possible reprints on the way and C) Not horribly expensive considering how good and versatile they are. Steam Vents is what? 18$ USD? Stomping Ground a bit more? And you only need 2 !?
That's not bad considering the recent standard reanimator deck ran sets of Liliana and Snapcaster? Both of those were 20$ + each
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Look there's a million competitive games out there that require little to no financial investment. MTG is NOT one of them. Good cards are more expensive than average cards. Some cards completely obsolete others. People who spend more money have an advantage, if you don't like that then go play a different game. Harsh? Yes but true.
Look there's a million competitive games out there that require little to no financial investment. MTG is NOT one of them. Good cards are more expensive than average cards. Some cards completely obsolete others. People who spend more money have an advantage, if you don't like that then go play a different game. Harsh? Yes but true.
First I agree with you about anything competitive is going to cost you to play.
Second why be frustrated? Once the concept of the more expensive cards make it easier for you to win bigger events, you have something to work for. There is still the entry level decks that cost $150-$250 to play in the format and be semi-competitive and maybe pick up some prize.
I know my LGS does Wednesday Night Modern (used to be Legacy). I haven't gone yet but it averages about 16 peopled to my understanding. I'm much more inclined to start going to this than to FNM.
Different levels of play for different formats. If you dont find Modern attractive, maybe you are not experienced enough to understand the enjoyment of the format. Standard is the ENTRY LEVEL competitive format. Of course there are going to be more players there, as it should be.
at the same time you might want to ask yourself why that in MTGO, which is one of the most popular places to play Modern on and where the card availability is much better than live
Maybe because ALL the virtual cards are in one place, the MTGO server, just being moved around from player to player. No one has a box of virtual cards hiding under their bed from when they played 5 years ago meaning less in the card pool.
that's the thing about modern. modern will start becoming more and more popular as people who play standard don't want to get rid of their old cards. i have a friend who got into the game last fall-ish, and even he's like, "i can see the appeal of modern. i get to play with these sweet cards from older sets. and i like dungrove elders, and they're rotating out. modern means i can still play them."
if you want to play a top top deck, you're going to have to stomach the price you have to pay. otherwise, you can build a modern deck with literally no investment. play a standard deck mixed with some older cards you have.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
It seems like a vicious feedback loop though. Nobody wants to invest in Modern because nobody plays it. Nobody plays it because nobody wants to invest in it.
I think nobody wants to invest in modern because the investments themselves are so toxic.
I feel like everyone is just waiting on shockland reprints before people finally take the modern plunge, which is sorta irrational since shocks are used in small quantities and aren't that expensive.
I think nobody wants to invest in modern because the investments themselves are so toxic.
I feel like everyone is just waiting on shockland reprints before people finally take the modern plunge, which is sorta irrational since shocks are used in small quantities and aren't that expensive.
It's all relative, right? I'm holding off on shocks because they may very well be 50-60% cheaper after a re-print. Is $10 a lot of money? Probably not. But that ignores the relative financial situation of any particular player. Is waiting for a potential 50-60% discount worth it? You bet.
No re-print? Ill buy the shocks I need. Re-print? Ill buy them and save half.
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[CENTER]Currently Playing
Modern RG RG Tron GR RUG RUG Twin RUG X Affinity X
It's all relative, right? I'm holding off on shocks because they may very well be 50-60% cheaper after a re-print. Is $10 a lot of money? Probably not. But that ignores the relative financial situation of any particular player. Is waiting for a potential 50-60% discount worth it? You bet.
No re-print? Ill buy the shocks I need. Re-print? Ill buy them and save half.
I think this mentality is a big part of it, people are hesitant to purchase into a big mana base but if they do reprint shocks and availability increases it will be a huge help to the format. Once you get a mana base down you can build a variety of decks in the format.
And even if prices don't come down due to standard use, all the standard players will still have a Modern mana base once they rotate, also to the good.
And even if prices don't come down due to standard use, all the standard players will still have a Modern mana base once they rotate, also to the good.
this is exactly what i tell everyone when people ask me why bother playing modern now.
they will reprint staples and it will allow newer standard players to transition into the format. Will they want to drop their shocks for worse dual lands in the next standard? most likely not.
Most of my 3 color decks run only 3-5 shocks. A box full of fetches is a lot better investment if you want a playset of something.
While I know that prices could be a reason that players aren't playing modern, I'm sure there are others that aren't being discussed. This thread is too close to a price discussion thread for the last 3-4 pages.
Outside of expecting WotC to provide reprints, are there other ways that players/stores can encourage others to play modern?
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Most of my 3 color decks run only 3-5 shocks. A box full of fetches is a lot better investment if you want a playset of something.
While I know that prices could be a reason that players aren't playing modern, I'm sure there are others that aren't being discussed. This thread is too close to a price discussion thread for the last 3-4 pages.
Outside of expecting WotC to provide reprints, are there other ways that players/stores can encourage others to play modern?
My last post was talking availability and not price really, but regarding the last question, I think that modern getting coverage would make it much more popular. The yokohama GP got no stream coverage, despite having highest modern turnout ever, and sites like TCGplayer havent posted a modern top8 list in over 2 months. If WotC (and most stores/sites mind you) could encourage people to play modern more, it would do wonders, but everyone seems content in what they are doing. SCG is happy keeping to legacy, WotC will have 2 GPs run at the same time and show limited over modern, and stores like my local stores are perfectly happy just doing sealed/draft/edh/legacy.
i think all it needs is more of the staples circulating in modern for it to work on a local level, but for sure more can be done by wotc to promote it if they cared any.
He's not saying that this is the correct way of thinking, but I know many standard players and a lot of relatively newer ones. They tend to go down the thinking of 'modern is so ridiculously broken every deck is stupid' or 'its too expensive I have to buy all these expensive old cards'.
I try to explain to them many of the arguments that you guys have said (it's a better investment, the cards don't rotate, the prices won't plummet when they rotate out, the format is more diverse etc). They just aren't keen for it.
I wish it wasn't true as I really love modern, but standard players play standard for a reason. It is far more accessible than modern. Hopefully by the next rotation or the one after that this seasons standard players start moving on to modern. All we can do is wait and see imo.
Bingo.
Modern
RG RG Tron GR
RUG RUG Twin RUG
X Affinity X
A lot of the crowd is made up of people who have been heavily invested in Magic for the past decade and are excited to use their favorite cards again. Others are newer standard players running standard decks.
That said, I do hope Wizards has the common sense to reprint some staples as they've said. In my opinion not reprinting Hierarch in M13 was a very stupid mistake and lost opportunity their part, but I digress.
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
Standard is a gateway format, and I've converted players from standard to modern just by pointing out that "modern is eternal so your favorite card/deck etc won't rotate."
A new player might transition into modern from standard after a rotation. The ornate is still young.
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
With Standard in the process of becoming mind numbingly dull, (When was the last time there was a good combo deck in Standard? Dragonstorm, Dredge? Twin hardly counts.) And extended also being cut into standard part two, a lot of us just stopped playing until modern was annouced.
What I mean to say is that the draw of modern is that there are power cards. (Until the bannings anyway, but thats a different rant.) You can play things like Kird Ape into Tarmogoyf. You can cast that storm spell to win the game. You can midrange stomp if you want to. Ramp if you want to. Counter spells if you want to.
It isn't standard where durdles turn sideways. And thats the real draw of modern.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Decks that run Goyf:
Loam
Jund
Zoo
Decks that run Clique:
Delver
Faeries
Bant
Some (not all) U/W decks
Decks that run Bob:
Loam
Jund
Some Affinity
Some RDW/Burn
Competitive decks that use none of them:
Affinity
UW Tron
RG Tron
UR Tron
Storm
Twin
RDW/Burn
Pod
Martyr
Living End
So unless newcomers to the format are hellbent on playing Jund, Delver, Loam, or Zoo, I'm sure they can find a playstyle in their flavor that doesnt use Goyf/Bob/Clique.
Which leaves the only real price barrier for newcomers as shocklands. (If they are coming from standard, they should have at least a few fetch lands. I've personally spent more money on fetches than I ever have on shocks.)
And Shocklands are A)needed in small amounts one or two of whichever one they use. B)Possible reprints on the way and C) Not horribly expensive considering how good and versatile they are. Steam Vents is what? 18$ USD? Stomping Ground a bit more? And you only need 2 !?
That's not bad considering the recent standard reanimator deck ran sets of Liliana and Snapcaster? Both of those were 20$ + each
Modern is only expensive to the uninformed.
I am down to see this thread locked. Pretty sure we all know where we stand.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Look there's a million competitive games out there that require little to no financial investment. MTG is NOT one of them. Good cards are more expensive than average cards. Some cards completely obsolete others. People who spend more money have an advantage, if you don't like that then go play a different game. Harsh? Yes but true.
First I agree with you about anything competitive is going to cost you to play.
Second why be frustrated? Once the concept of the more expensive cards make it easier for you to win bigger events, you have something to work for. There is still the entry level decks that cost $150-$250 to play in the format and be semi-competitive and maybe pick up some prize.
Maybe because ALL the virtual cards are in one place, the MTGO server, just being moved around from player to player. No one has a box of virtual cards hiding under their bed from when they played 5 years ago meaning less in the card pool.
if you want to play a top top deck, you're going to have to stomach the price you have to pay. otherwise, you can build a modern deck with literally no investment. play a standard deck mixed with some older cards you have.
I think nobody wants to invest in modern because the investments themselves are so toxic.
I feel like everyone is just waiting on shockland reprints before people finally take the modern plunge, which is sorta irrational since shocks are used in small quantities and aren't that expensive.
It's all relative, right? I'm holding off on shocks because they may very well be 50-60% cheaper after a re-print. Is $10 a lot of money? Probably not. But that ignores the relative financial situation of any particular player. Is waiting for a potential 50-60% discount worth it? You bet.
No re-print? Ill buy the shocks I need. Re-print? Ill buy them and save half.
Modern
RG RG Tron GR
RUG RUG Twin RUG
X Affinity X
I think this mentality is a big part of it, people are hesitant to purchase into a big mana base but if they do reprint shocks and availability increases it will be a huge help to the format. Once you get a mana base down you can build a variety of decks in the format.
And even if prices don't come down due to standard use, all the standard players will still have a Modern mana base once they rotate, also to the good.
this is exactly what i tell everyone when people ask me why bother playing modern now.
they will reprint staples and it will allow newer standard players to transition into the format. Will they want to drop their shocks for worse dual lands in the next standard? most likely not.
While I know that prices could be a reason that players aren't playing modern, I'm sure there are others that aren't being discussed. This thread is too close to a price discussion thread for the last 3-4 pages.
Outside of expecting WotC to provide reprints, are there other ways that players/stores can encourage others to play modern?
My last post was talking availability and not price really, but regarding the last question, I think that modern getting coverage would make it much more popular. The yokohama GP got no stream coverage, despite having highest modern turnout ever, and sites like TCGplayer havent posted a modern top8 list in over 2 months. If WotC (and most stores/sites mind you) could encourage people to play modern more, it would do wonders, but everyone seems content in what they are doing. SCG is happy keeping to legacy, WotC will have 2 GPs run at the same time and show limited over modern, and stores like my local stores are perfectly happy just doing sealed/draft/edh/legacy.
i think all it needs is more of the staples circulating in modern for it to work on a local level, but for sure more can be done by wotc to promote it if they cared any.
-Tom