After seeing how this card works with snapcaster mage in standard, I'm wondering: could this be the more ideal black removal spell in the modern format? Since innocent blood isn't in the format, it doesn't seem to have the ideal 1-mana black removal spell. Disfigure and more narrow cards like deathmark seem okay, but they don't see much play either. I hate that modern has to rely on Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt as removal when black is seemingly supposed to have the best removal. I know there isn't a lot of blightsteel colossus' running around, but it's so cheap and kills many of the format's staple creatures just as well.
I think this card should get a bit more play in this format, and could be the part of a good control shell. What do you guys think?
If I'm in black, I'd rather have a Go for the Throat / Doom Blade package for removal, or use that B slot for discard in most decks. Relying on Morbid for real removal worries me, I'm not sure how consistent it will be in the format, and without a way to kill the first creature, you might not have a way to make the -1/-1 relevant, though the amount of X/1's in the format makes it a bit better.
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This is why I started playing magic in the first place. It wasn't PT aspirations just making noobs cry by doing things that are perfectly fair.
I think tragic slip is the only black removal in modern. doom blade and go for the throat are too narrow and overcosted. In modern u have to be able to kill anything. As soon as u put in go for the thraot ur oppenet will play a wurmcoil. Thats the way modern is
I think tragic slip is the only black removal in modern. doom blade and go for the throat are too narrow and overcosted. In modern u have to be able to kill anything. As soon as u put in go for the thraot ur oppenet will play a wurmcoil. Thats the way modern is
Not sure how Tragic Slip isn't just as conditional as Doom Blade or Go for the Throat. And yes, having a GFTT against a Wurmcoil is ****ty, but that's why you side them out G2 and have other removal options available. I usually MB 1-2 each of Doom Blade and GFTT, depending on other removal, and SB the same-ish amount so I can tune it to my opponent's creatures.
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UUU Talrand, Sky Summoner // (W/U)(W/U)(W/U) Grand Arbiter Augustin IV // RRR Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker // (R/G)(R/G)(R/G) Wort, the Raidmother // URG Riku of Two Reflections // RWU Ruhan of the Fomori
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This is why I started playing magic in the first place. It wasn't PT aspirations just making noobs cry by doing things that are perfectly fair.
Not sure how Tragic Slip isn't just as conditional as Doom Blade or Go for the Throat. And yes, having a GFTT against a Wurmcoil is ****ty, but that's why you side them out G2 and have other removal options available. I usually MB 1-2 each of Doom Blade and GFTT, depending on other removal, and SB the same-ish amount so I can tune it to my opponent's creatures.
I dont think wasting slots on alternate removal is smart ether. You need to deticating your sb to countering different combo decks, if you want to go far in tourneys. At this point everyone has 1 cmc removal, pte, vapor snag, bolt, exc. And they all have limitations too
I dont think wasting slots on alternate removal is smart ether. You need to deticating your sb to countering different combo decks, if you want to go far in tourneys. At this point everyone has 1 cmc removal, pte, vapor snag, bolt, exc. And they all have limitations too
I have a way bigger problem with aggressive creature decks than combo decks in my area, so skewing heavily into anti-combo for my SB doesn't make sense.
Removal higher than 1CMC is a thing. Sure, Path, Snag and Bolt are 1CMC, but that isn't the hard barrier for removal spells in the format, especially not in slower control decks that are more about the long game than quick removal. 1B is not overcosted for conditional removal in this format. C might be a better cost, but 1C is hardly breaking the bank for a spell that can kill many more creatures than Tragic Slip can.
Tragic Slip kills approximately 1,017 creatures, without Morbid, 3,832 creatures with Morbid; Doom Blade hits approximately 3,022 creatures; Go for the Throat hits 3,515 creatures. (When I tried searching these with "+hexproof, +shroud," it crashed Gatherer, heh, so these are approximate.) In order to hit similar numbers of suitable targets, Tragic Slip requires some kind of Morbid enabler. I think you underestimate the power of conditional, targeted removal for 1 more mana than Tragic Slip.
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UUU Talrand, Sky Summoner // (W/U)(W/U)(W/U) Grand Arbiter Augustin IV // RRR Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker // (R/G)(R/G)(R/G) Wort, the Raidmother // URG Riku of Two Reflections // RWU Ruhan of the Fomori
Quote from Mark Rosewater »
In response to your Lightning Blast, I'll eat this burrito.
Quote from slipknot72102 »
This is why I started playing magic in the first place. It wasn't PT aspirations just making noobs cry by doing things that are perfectly fair.
If I'm in black, I'd rather have a Go for the Throat / Doom Blade package for removal, or use that B slot for discard in most decks. Relying on Morbid for real removal worries me, I'm not sure how consistent it will be in the format, and without a way to kill the first creature, you might not have a way to make the -1/-1 relevant, though the amount of X/1's in the format makes it a bit better.
Doom blade and gofer are certainly good cards, but like I said: path to exile and lightning bolt see far more play as removal options than the both doom blade and gofer simply because they're more efficient as 1 cmc spells. Black, as a color that emphasizes on removal, should have an equally playable removal spell at the same cost, and I think Tragic Slip could qualify for that spot over other black spells.
Also, having to use additional spots in your deck and sideboard to switch out between doomblades and gofers against various decks that are more resistant to one or the other seems really inefficient. Losing a game because you drew a doomblade when you needed a gofer doesn't seem like a good reason to lose a game.
Edit:
Also, nice research on the statistics. But notice how doomblade and gofer cost 2 as opposed to 1. A morbid tragic slip kills more than both. It merely requires you set up morbid, which isn't difficult.
Besides, though the statistics do show a good overall trend, a simple search on the gatherer fails to take into account what creatures are commonly played (unless it did actually take that into account, which I doubt it can do).
Also, having to use additional spots in your deck and sideboard to switch out between doomblades and gofers against various decks that are more resistant to one or the other makes black that much less playable. Losing a game because you drew a doomblade when you needed a gofer doesn't seem like a good reason to lose a game.
But I could say the same thing when you're staring down a 2/2 that's beating your face in and all you draw is Tragic Slip - it can't deal with that 2/2 by itself. I'm not disagreeing that it's a decent spell, but it's just as narrow as black's other options, and I don't think it's replacing any of the black removal spells I currently use, personally. If mono-black control, or even Bx control, becomes a reliable archetype, I could see it being a role player, but in the format right now I'd rather just have conditional destroy spells than conditional weakening spells.
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UUU Talrand, Sky Summoner // (W/U)(W/U)(W/U) Grand Arbiter Augustin IV // RRR Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker // (R/G)(R/G)(R/G) Wort, the Raidmother // URG Riku of Two Reflections // RWU Ruhan of the Fomori
Quote from Mark Rosewater »
In response to your Lightning Blast, I'll eat this burrito.
Quote from slipknot72102 »
This is why I started playing magic in the first place. It wasn't PT aspirations just making noobs cry by doing things that are perfectly fair.
to get the most out of tragic slip, you need to enable morbid. that by itself requires you to invest mana that turn, like another instant to kill a creature, or to block with another creature that you had invested mana in. it might just be easier to pay the 1 extra mana. path, bolt, and snag (is this even played?) all have severe down sides that generally hurt a lot more than missing black creatures or artifact creatures.
and for this meta, smother isn't that horrid of an idea.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
Smother is probably the best option, followed closely by Doom Blade. Go for the Throat is practically worthless because of Affinity being tier 1-1.5 recently. Doom Blade kills just about every creature in the format except Bob.
EDIT: That can be hit by targeted removal, that is. Obviously Geist shrugs them all off.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
Yeah, Blade is definitely better than Gofer (though I still like to split them X/1). Smother is also good but honestly I think Blade is better; Bob really is the only relevant black creature in the format.
Vendetta is actually pretty sweet, I totally had no clue that was legal in Modern (was reprinted while I was taking a break from the game). I don't know how playable it is, but it's certainly interesting.
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When you peer long enough through the depths, the depths peer also through you.
It definitely seems playable, but in a format where your shocklands can make the difference in a match, hurting yourself more seems pretty unappealing. And again, it has 'non-black' to limit it a bit. Path to Exile giving your opponent an extra basic land is far less relevant than losing some life, apparently.
I may actually try this card out though. Like I said, I had no idea this was a card.
Vendetta is the black Swords to Plowshares, in case no one spotted the parallel. The "joke" is that an opponent gaining life is hardly a downside, but you losing life can be significant. Just like Healing Salve being hideously worse than Lightning Bolt back in Alpha.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I have used Tragic Slip in some builds, but in many of them I have eventually changed it out for Darkblast or Bone Shards (situational, I know- but given my play style it is not very situational). I had not idea Vendetta even existed till today (I love that!), so that will have to get some attention.
Then again, I rarely have much of a problem relying on 2cmc removal, so it is not too much of a priority.
You could also run Funeral Charm. It doesn't have the ability to kill off more than 1 toughness critters, but it does other things.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
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After seeing how this card works with snapcaster mage in standard, I'm wondering: could this be the more ideal black removal spell in the modern format? Since innocent blood isn't in the format, it doesn't seem to have the ideal 1-mana black removal spell. Disfigure and more narrow cards like deathmark seem okay, but they don't see much play either. I hate that modern has to rely on Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt as removal when black is seemingly supposed to have the best removal. I know there isn't a lot of blightsteel colossus' running around, but it's so cheap and kills many of the format's staple creatures just as well.
I think this card should get a bit more play in this format, and could be the part of a good control shell. What do you guys think?
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Id say it competes with that more than anything else
Infraction issued for repeated bad spelling.
Not sure how Tragic Slip isn't just as conditional as Doom Blade or Go for the Throat. And yes, having a GFTT against a Wurmcoil is ****ty, but that's why you side them out G2 and have other removal options available. I usually MB 1-2 each of Doom Blade and GFTT, depending on other removal, and SB the same-ish amount so I can tune it to my opponent's creatures.
I dont think wasting slots on alternate removal is smart ether. You need to deticating your sb to countering different combo decks, if you want to go far in tourneys. At this point everyone has 1 cmc removal, pte, vapor snag, bolt, exc. And they all have limitations too
I have a way bigger problem with aggressive creature decks than combo decks in my area, so skewing heavily into anti-combo for my SB doesn't make sense.
Removal higher than 1CMC is a thing. Sure, Path, Snag and Bolt are 1CMC, but that isn't the hard barrier for removal spells in the format, especially not in slower control decks that are more about the long game than quick removal. 1B is not overcosted for conditional removal in this format. C might be a better cost, but 1C is hardly breaking the bank for a spell that can kill many more creatures than Tragic Slip can.
Tragic Slip kills approximately 1,017 creatures, without Morbid, 3,832 creatures with Morbid; Doom Blade hits approximately 3,022 creatures; Go for the Throat hits 3,515 creatures. (When I tried searching these with "+hexproof, +shroud," it crashed Gatherer, heh, so these are approximate.) In order to hit similar numbers of suitable targets, Tragic Slip requires some kind of Morbid enabler. I think you underestimate the power of conditional, targeted removal for 1 more mana than Tragic Slip.
Doom blade and gofer are certainly good cards, but like I said: path to exile and lightning bolt see far more play as removal options than the both doom blade and gofer simply because they're more efficient as 1 cmc spells. Black, as a color that emphasizes on removal, should have an equally playable removal spell at the same cost, and I think Tragic Slip could qualify for that spot over other black spells.
Also, having to use additional spots in your deck and sideboard to switch out between doomblades and gofers against various decks that are more resistant to one or the other seems really inefficient. Losing a game because you drew a doomblade when you needed a gofer doesn't seem like a good reason to lose a game.
Edit:
Also, nice research on the statistics. But notice how doomblade and gofer cost 2 as opposed to 1. A morbid tragic slip kills more than both. It merely requires you set up morbid, which isn't difficult.
Besides, though the statistics do show a good overall trend, a simple search on the gatherer fails to take into account what creatures are commonly played (unless it did actually take that into account, which I doubt it can do).
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But I could say the same thing when you're staring down a 2/2 that's beating your face in and all you draw is Tragic Slip - it can't deal with that 2/2 by itself. I'm not disagreeing that it's a decent spell, but it's just as narrow as black's other options, and I don't think it's replacing any of the black removal spells I currently use, personally. If mono-black control, or even Bx control, becomes a reliable archetype, I could see it being a role player, but in the format right now I'd rather just have conditional destroy spells than conditional weakening spells.
Hes actually totally right. And vendettaing a noble or a birds doesnt hurt at all. A 4/5 goyf would, but less then repeated bashing.
and for this meta, smother isn't that horrid of an idea.
EDIT: That can be hit by targeted removal, that is. Obviously Geist shrugs them all off.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Vendetta is actually pretty sweet, I totally had no clue that was legal in Modern (was reprinted while I was taking a break from the game). I don't know how playable it is, but it's certainly interesting.
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haha, I didn't know this was a card until now.
It definitely seems playable, but in a format where your shocklands can make the difference in a match, hurting yourself more seems pretty unappealing. And again, it has 'non-black' to limit it a bit. Path to Exile giving your opponent an extra basic land is far less relevant than losing some life, apparently.
I may actually try this card out though. Like I said, I had no idea this was a card.
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-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Then again, I rarely have much of a problem relying on 2cmc removal, so it is not too much of a priority.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Eh, that seems a lot less relevant than direct damage. However, combat tricks is nice.
I'd say disfigure is a decent card. Shock is a decent card; it's just outclassed by bolt so nobody plays it.
and also Galvanic blast, burst lightning, and even magma spray to some extent.