[Idea]
Modern Banned List Testing
Poll: Which cards do you think can safely come off the Banned List
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Which cards do you think can safely come off the Banned List - Multiple Choice
- Ancestral Vision 56.7% of Users - 166 votes
- Ancient Den 5.8% of Users - 17 votes
- Bitterblossom 32.8% of Users - 96 votes
- Blazing Shoal 3.1% of Users - 9 votes
- Chrome Mox 18.4% of Users - 54 votes
- Cloudpost 3.8% of Users - 11 votes
- Dark Depths 6.1% of Users - 18 votes
- Dread Return 13% of Users - 38 votes
- Glimpse of Nature 4.4% of Users - 13 votes
- Golgari Grave-Troll 34.8% of Users - 102 votes
- Great Furnace 5.5% of Users - 16 votes
- Green Sun's Zenith 25.6% of Users - 75 votes
- Hypergenesis 3.4% of Users - 10 votes
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor 23.2% of Users - 68 votes
- Mental Misstep 13% of Users - 38 votes
- Ponder 17.1% of Users - 50 votes
- Preordain 25.3% of Users - 74 votes
- Punishing Fire 5.1% of Users - 15 votes
- Rite of Flame 9.6% of Users - 28 votes
- Seat of the Synod 4.8% of Users - 14 votes
- Sensei's Divining Top 14% of Users - 41 votes
- Stoneforge Mystic 15% of Users - 44 votes
- Skullclamp 2.7% of Users - 8 votes
- Sword of the Meek 13% of Users - 38 votes
- Tree of Tales 6.8% of Users - 20 votes
- Umezawa's Jitte 11.9% of Users - 35 votes
- Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle 24.6% of Users - 72 votes
- Vault of Wisphers 5.8% of Users - 17 votes
- Wild Nacatl 29.4% of Users - 86 votes
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I'm looking to gather couple of playtesters on Salvation to play test with me on Cockatrice using cards that's already on the Modern Banned List. My hope is that the play testings will give people more insight on certain banned card and find out if they can safety come off the Banned List. If i get enough supports maybe we can even go further and host online Cockatrice tournament using these cards.
I also posted a poll of the current cards in the Banned List that people can vote for to see which one is safe to come off the lists. Then based on that i can start play testing based on the results of the poll.
This is just an idea and i would like people opinion on how i can sculpt and improve it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8476353#post8476353
I remember hearing wind somewhere about somebody running a series of tournaments test-unbanning things. I'd consider doing them myself if nobody else is. I don't want to step on Lantern's toes though.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8476353#post8476353
I'm fine with arranging a group of people to playtest, deciding on cards to test, and those people posting their thoughts and results from the games. However, if this thread frequently devolves into banned list debate I'll be closing it down.
-Tom
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8476353#post8476353
I see what you mean. I thought about that while making the poll. The reason for having Ponder and other friend on the poll is because of future set. I think that as new sets come out, the power level of these banned card could be affected by new card. These new cards can weaken or make some of these card better. I know card like Blazing Shoal probably won't be tested but it won't hurt to have on the poll.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8476353#post8476353
In that respect I picked:
Ancestral Vision- May actually power up classic control so they can compete. I think it would help them a lot, with out helping tempo.
Golgari Grave-Troll- without dread return, dregde limps. I think this deck is fine, as it would enable grave stuff, but wouldnt be super fast.
Stoneforge mystic- I think she is very ok in a format with 1 mana answers. If she fetches a batterskull, the worst thing she can do, I beleive its very deal able. She also allows Death and taxes, bant, zoo, and classic control some toys.
Green Sun's Zenith- See below.
Wild Nacatl- I feel one of these could come of. Zoo is a limping deck with out it's early beater. And with Delver, I don't think people would default to aggro over delver.
For testing, Id gladly test any aggro deck, as that is my forte, and I can assist in that the truest.
BB maybe too good, but I feel Visions is safe. Valakut seems safe, but I don't follow this format that well
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I'd love to see Stoneforge and nacatl taken up with some serious thought.
Furthermore, i'll decide on what card will be legal for testing in three days base on the result of the poll.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8476353#post8476353
I voted for Ancestral Vision (maybe heavy control will actually come back!), Bitterblossom (I believe it won't break Faeries any more than it won't help more than 1 other deck, and the meta is pretty viciously against X/1's), GSZ (as long as Elves doesn't get Glimpse, I'm OK), Valakut (Scapeshift combo does have a favourable match-up against Jund Game 1, but if we withstood RG Artifact Tron, we can withstand this), and Wild Nacatl (may as well have full Zoo if we have nearly full Next Level Thresh).
I'm interested in building decks for this format. My Cockatrice username is the same as my MTGS one; Lectrys. I'm not often on, though.
Will you run multiple sessions with different legal cards?
I ask because you said 'card' and not 'cards'
And i want to make a Mav list with GSZ / SFM (provided they get voted up)
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Sorry for the typo
Yeah i meant cards. I will run multiple sessions depending how much time i have since college start soon for me.
However, i guarantee there will be tons of playtesting despite my schedule.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8476353#post8476353
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8476353#post8476353
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
WotC prefers to ban enablers rather than the problem cards. Their philosophy is that more problems will be printed that break those enablers, so banning the problem cards makes the bandits larger than banning the enablers. Also, Ponder and Preordain really are that good at making combo decks more consistent than WotC wants then to be.
I understand their philosophy, and am aware of it. I just think the actual problem card(s) and not an innocuous cantrip that is only pushed because of the power level of cards it's filtering should be the one to get the axe.
This isn't a Survival vs. Vengevine scenario. This is a Mind's Desire/Yawgmoth's Will vs. Burning Wish. Burning Wish, at it's heart is a 2 mana sorcery tutor (not broken by any means), but when it's searching/enabling cards like Yawg Will and Mind's Desire (the actual problems) it's viewed as such. I don't agree with that sentiment. It's the Lion's Eye Diamond (the actual broken card), not Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish (fair card that enables the broken card). Although I suppose they both enable each other.
Bident Layers
B Devotion
RG Devotion
UW Control
Modern:
Jund
UW Control
Combo Pod
Legacy:
DeathBlade
RUG Delver
BUG Control
The other big problem, just because one play tester finds a card completely fair and fine for the format, the next may see the card as the scourge of the format if unbanned. Its very subjective. Those doing the testing must keep in mind the parameters Wotc has set forth for the format and the power level. Does the deck feel like it could be played in Legacy? If so then its too strong for the format. (I am much more worried about an over powered forat then an underpowered format. Its much easier to power up, then power down an eternal format.)
As long as everyone is subjective while testing, I dont see a problem. Its when people forget about the parameters of the format and are trying to make it something it isnt.
Single cards dont make decks. You can have a powerful card in the format, same level as Legacy, as long as you dont have the enablers to make the deck powerful enough to play in Legacy. (kind of why I want to see if Modern Dredge would be that powerful) Thats why we have most of the cards on the ban list.
Its strange you rate Bob below Goyf. Thats one of my points about objectiveness. Just because you see something more or less powerful, doesnt mean everyone does. In the end our opinions really dont matter. Its Wotc game to dictate to us. We play in their sandbox.
My list for safe unbanning would be, any combination of the following:
Artifact lands unbanned -> Ban Cranial Plating
Ancestral Vision
Bitterblossom
Cloudpost unbanned -> Ban Emrakul
Golgari Grave-Troll
Green Sun's Zenith
Jace, the Mind Sculptor OR Mental Misstep OR Stoneforge Mystic (no more than one. I realize this is controversial.)
Ponder AND/OR Preordain AND/OR Rite of Flame -> Ban Past in Flames
Sword of the Meek -> maybe ban Krark-Clan Ironworks? Thopter-Sword is fine without an enabler to go infinite.
Wild Nacatl
If anyone wants an explanation of why these cards, or wants to "challenge" me to Cockatrice testing with any subsection of this banned list (we should probably just try to make it a few cards per test rather than an overhaul) just reply here. Remember, if you want to make a case for why a card is banned, or if you want a realistic argument for why a card could be UNbanned, try your hardest to break the card in half. Use it in the best possible way. Check Legacy decks or old Extended combos for more information. That way, if we can say "this is the best ThopterSword deck in the format" and it still loses to Jund, Delver, and Affinity (the erstwhile DTBs of Modern) we have a good case for unbanning a card.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Why not unban cloudpost and ban Vesuva? 8 post was never that big of a problem. It was only when we went to 12 post that it got a bit out of hand.
Right now i'm planning to test the top 3 card people voted for. However, during the next sessions i'm testing the next 3 follow up card so that almost all cards get a chance to be used. However, cards such as glimpse or hypergenesis i might not test at all unless people want me to do test it.
@bocephus
Like i said with Leh, everyone will get a chance to see all of these banned cards in testings so we'll see if the are truly safe to be unbanned. The poll just give me an insight which cards is the obvious choice to come off. I know some choice could be bias but that always happen to poll. Thank for your insight about the poll. also, card such as cloudpost and blazing shoal are subjective for testing because some people already know their power during PT Philly. However, i'm willing to test them.
P.S
If anyone play Modern extensively and know how to pilot some meta deck such as Jund and Pod, it would be great if some of you help me with testing.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8476353#post8476353
I understand. I was just saying the only way this will be successful is if done objectively.