[Idea]
Modern Banned List Testing
Poll: Which cards do you think can safely come off the Banned List
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Which cards do you think can safely come off the Banned List - Multiple Choice
- Ancestral Vision 56.7% of Users - 166 votes
- Ancient Den 5.8% of Users - 17 votes
- Bitterblossom 32.8% of Users - 96 votes
- Blazing Shoal 3.1% of Users - 9 votes
- Chrome Mox 18.4% of Users - 54 votes
- Cloudpost 3.8% of Users - 11 votes
- Dark Depths 6.1% of Users - 18 votes
- Dread Return 13% of Users - 38 votes
- Glimpse of Nature 4.4% of Users - 13 votes
- Golgari Grave-Troll 34.8% of Users - 102 votes
- Great Furnace 5.5% of Users - 16 votes
- Green Sun's Zenith 25.6% of Users - 75 votes
- Hypergenesis 3.4% of Users - 10 votes
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor 23.2% of Users - 68 votes
- Mental Misstep 13% of Users - 38 votes
- Ponder 17.1% of Users - 50 votes
- Preordain 25.3% of Users - 74 votes
- Punishing Fire 5.1% of Users - 15 votes
- Rite of Flame 9.6% of Users - 28 votes
- Seat of the Synod 4.8% of Users - 14 votes
- Sensei's Divining Top 14% of Users - 41 votes
- Stoneforge Mystic 15% of Users - 44 votes
- Skullclamp 2.7% of Users - 8 votes
- Sword of the Meek 13% of Users - 38 votes
- Tree of Tales 6.8% of Users - 20 votes
- Umezawa's Jitte 11.9% of Users - 35 votes
- Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle 24.6% of Users - 72 votes
- Vault of Wisphers 5.8% of Users - 17 votes
- Wild Nacatl 29.4% of Users - 86 votes
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I read it wrong.
You're absolutely right, though. There are some cards on that list that should never be unbanned that I'd love to test in Modern.
CG
Visions Blossom Fae basically needs to play removal spells (or Vedalken Shackles) against that deck, and if they don't draw into enough removal spells, it's good game for them, too. Heck, Twin Pod plays around one removal spell (even on Kiki-Jiki) pretty well. Shackles should improve that match-up, but there isn't much room for it in the deck.
Heck, Twin Pod's threat density is such that it can often not stick a Pod (or a Chord of Calling, for that matter) for the entire game and still win. It's like bashing Legacy UW Stoneblade into Legacy Maverick after a while.
Not to mention that Ancestral Vision is one of the worst topdecks in the world. Maybe sticking in Snapcaster Mage or even Augur of Bolas instead will improve the match-up (it's like how Standstill and Land Tax ain't what they used to be in Legacy).
...Okay, Twin Pod just won a game where Visions Blossom Fae resolved two Ancestral Visions, one suspended on Turn 2 and the other suspended on Turn 3. This is nuts.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8476353#post8476353
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I hate the reserved list.
Mythic rares are fine.
I'd rather see only one of Ponder and Preordain being unbanned than both, and of the two, Preordain is noticeably less powerful (at least when I play Legacy Show and Tell Omniscience, a deck that leans on its high-quality cantrips very hard), so I'd rather see it unbanned than Ponder.
Unbanning a single artifact land would make Affinity noticeably more powerful (at least, Cranial Plating, Master of Etherium, Disciple of the Vault, and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas get that much better with all unbanned artifact lands). It may shove Affinity into Tier 0.5 from Tier 1-1.5, but it could be testable.
It wasn't banned for CounterTop anyway, but for time concerns, so testing it seems silly: even if it doesn't turn out overpowered, Wizards doesn't want it in the format.
4 Mutavault
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
3 Watery Grave
4 Island
1 Swamp
Creatures
4 Mistbind Clique
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Bitterblossom
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Rune Snag
2 Cryptic Command
2 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
1 Smother
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spell Pierce
1 Countersquall
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Engineered Explosives
SoFaF may be a little too slow for the meta; it could easily be 2 Tiagos instead.
Testing this list against RG Artifact Tron not tuned for the Ban List Meta shows the match-up is iffy--even or worse. Visions Blossom Fae tends to win more often if it resolves Ancestral Vision or early Bitterblossom, but RG Artifact Tron has definitely won through both (Rune Snag becomes useless quickly, Spellstutter Sprite basically can't counter Karn and higher, etc.). Tron has a brutal and consistent late game, and it shows.
sincerly i hated all cards i voted for, but i think their ban is ridiculous
EDH: Varolz, the Scar-Striped
Why ban disciple?
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Here's our conclusion:
-Ancestrall vision: suspend 4 is too slow to be good in modern. Games usually end before you draw 3 extra cards or even if you get to that point, chances are it is already too late. It can be unbanned.
-Cloudpost: I own a breach posts deck and I can assure you that it is not a tier 1 deck. Agreed that you can get to an absurd amount of colorless mana but beyond emrakul... There's no need for all that mana. It can be unbanned.
-GSZ: This one is tough to judge. I play this card in my breach posts deck. T1 GSZ for 0 and fetching dryad arbor is borderline OP. The broken part of GSZ is when you compare it to cards that do similar things like primal command, time of need, birthing pod, chord of calling. GSZ is clearly the best, for less mana and little to no drawback. It should stay banned.
-JTMS: I own 2 and it is a bit slow for modern. Modern is too fast for JTMS to be the threat he was in standard. I tried it in esper blade, in UB control, in mono U control. PW works at sorcery speed and that's the main drawback. I've read article about how JTMS was a mistake and it is the ultimate tempo card... Remand is better in that field, imho. JTMS can be unbanned.
-Stoneforge Mystic: Stoneforge + Batterskull combo is broken. Wizard banned the wrong card, imho. Bskull is not even played in modern because it is too slow. I tested stoneforge (without Bskull) and I found it balanced. In fact, I feel that control decks need tools in order to be competitive in modern. Stoneforge is one of those missing pieces. Stoneforge could be unbanned only if Batterskull is banned instead.
-Valakut: A while ago, my friend tested a version of valakut + scapeshift + primeval titan and it was not that good... It was easily disrupted and had a poor win ratio. Valakut can be unbanned.
WU Resto Blade
RUG Tron
BUG Infect
WBG Melira Pod
WBRG White Jund
I don't know if simultaneous unban/bans are within the purview of this thread, but since you mentioned it for SFM, it could probably also be considered here. Unbanning GSZ and banning dryad arbor could be worth testing.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I think you were misinformed in this area. JTMS is terrible in tempo strategies, like you said. He's the ultimate control card, is what he is. You normally just keep gaining card advantage with his 0 ability and then once your opponent has little to nothing left you start controlling what he draws with Jace's +2 ability (and then sometimes kill them with -12). Too many creatures in the way? Don't be afraid to use his -1.
Jace is really really really good, but when he was legal for a brief time (before the format was officiallized) he seemed kind of like he seems in legacy; powerful but not dominant. I'd like to bring him back to test.
WU Resto Blade
RUG Tron
BUG Infect
WBG Melira Pod
WBRG White Jund
We tested Cloudpost for a long while when Modern was new; it basically killed control dead and gave aggro a surprisingly hard time with the Glimmerposts. I doubt things have changed much with Innistrad Block's release; 12-Post is measurably better than all forms of Tron, Tron is already attracting ridiculous answers like Sowing Salt, and I get Turn 3 Karn Liberated stunningly often.
Did you also test more optimal versions of Scapeshift decks? My testing with Scapeshift Combo shows that it will push Exarch Twin out of the format and it has a favourable match-up against Jund; if it's even with Mono-Blue Faeries, then I'll say Valakut deserves to stay banned.
I'm not sure how good Wargate(-Prismatic Omen-Valakut) will be, but if Scapeshift is UR Storm, Wargate is Tron, and if Scapeshift is Exarch Twin, Wargate is Twin Pod. Its late-game inevitability is as unbelievable as Tron's and maybe 12-Post's. Jund had a shaky time.
And yeah, I'd believe Jitte is still 2-mana Plague Wind broken. I tested it in Restricted Modern; even in a Skullclamp-infested meta, it proved its worth.
We did not test Bitterblossom in modern environment. And I prefer Lingering Souls hands down because of immediate impact on the board. Multiple Bitterblossom isn't so good...
I also prefer Cloudpost + Glimmerpost + Vesuva to Tron but in the end, you are still ''combo'ing'' at T3 or T4. It is similar but without the lifegain.
I'm not sure it was optimal as we tested it one night only and every decks seem to steam roll this poor boy... The deck was mainly Prismatic Omen + Scapeshift + Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle + mana ramp. At that time, we did not have 12 modern decks (breach posts being illegal) but I remember testing it against UR Twin. UR Twin won every single matchups... Having access to blue gives you lot of consistency in terms of assembling your pieces together but the real problem was clutch counterspells. It was one turn or 2 turns late. But yet again, maybe I had the wrong list or I was doing it wrong... Or maybe not. Having 5 mountains on the table by T4 is no piece of cake.
WU Resto Blade
RUG Tron
BUG Infect
WBG Melira Pod
WBRG White Jund
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I've tested both Wargate (from New Extended) and UGr Scapeshift Combo (from Old Extended) against Modern Jund (not tuned for the Ban List Meta, so 2 Thoughtseize-4 Inquisition of Kozilek, no Jund Charm, etc.), and both decks held their own against Jund. Wargate may be even (needs further testing), but Scapeshift was favourable. It can chump block and topdeck its way to a win. The Augur of Bolas should be pretty good tech--it digs for stuff and has a huge butt for a 2 cmc card. Liliana of the Veil didn't quite work half the time.
I can test both decks against RUG Tempo Thresh and Scapeshift against Mono-Blue Faeries (which should shred combo).
Oh yeah, I've tended to find that UGr Scapeshift, when it can combo off with 7 lands on the battlefield (i.e. auto-plays around Mana Leak), has counterspell back-up (Remand/Spell Pierce/Dispel) about all the time. It casts Scapeshift and wins; it doesn't need any Mountains on the battlefield the turn it combos off.
We are here to test these things; making a speculative post doesn't help much. Are you saying you do or do not want to test him?
No, dear God no. Not this again. When will people STOP comparing lingering souls to Bitterblossom.
They are not even CLOSE to the same card. The ONLY card with which you should compare lingering souls is SPectral Procession.
Whether Bitterblossom should be legal or not is debatable, but stop comparing it to cards that aren't even in the same archetype.
Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls are played together in the same archetype in Legacy: BW Stoneblade. One Modern archetype would play both cards if it could: BW Tokens.
I tend to compare the two cards because they both produce 1/1 flying tokens. Lingering Souls just poops out the most such tokens at once. Spectral Procession comes close, but not late-game.
It's true that UB Faeries would not play Souls, but Esper Delver may not play Blossom either because of the anti-synergy with Delver of Secrets and lack of immediate pressure.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Okay, smashed Mono-Blue Faeries against both Exarch Twin and Scapeshift. It's not an auto-loss for both combo decks, but Scapeshift has the edge. Seriously, Exarch Twin has to assemble three combo pieces against them (Exarch, Twin, Dispel), while Scapeshift only needs to assemble two (Scapeshift, counterspell). Vedalken Shackles is also dead against Scapeshift and very live against Exarch Twin. I'm not sure if either match-up is even, but a combo deck that can beat the Fae with a sound plan may deserve to stay banned.
Smashed Scapeshift against Rakdos Deck Wins to test its speed. The good news is that RDW can probably beat it more often than it can beat UR Storm. All those shocklands add up. The bad news is that RDW still had a stunning tendency to lose against Scapeshift decently often.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible