Outclassing Think Twice isn't something wotc will do.
but its not outclassing. think twice is card advantage. simply drawing a card isn't. i think what i proposed is actually weaker than izzet's. but time will tell. i have high hopes for this cycle.
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Dreg Mangler isn't too interesting. Boggart Ram-Gang hasn't made any waves yet, so it's unlikely that this will.
Be careful with that parallel, though. It's not as relevant a comparison as it seems. First, Dreg Mangler has built-in card advantage and BRG doesn't. Mangler can be cast T2 off a mana dork, then "flashed back" after death to make that same mana dork into a monster.
Secondly, it's B/ instead of R/, which is significant because B/ decks tend to be a bit more comfortable with a beefier creature base than R/ decks (burn often wants to play a fast game and it rewards early aggression strategies, while black removal spells don't need to hurry as much - they're just as effective turn 7 as they are turn 2, and they can't go to the face, so no need to worry about getting the opponent within burn range), which makes the 3CMC casting cost look relatively leaner.
The biggest thing, though, is the Scavenge ability. It's fantastic in a deck that runs mana dorks, and it's interaction with cards like Kitchen Finks, Murderous Redcap, and even Wall of Roots is a neat little side effect. If we see a cheap creature with a cheap scavenge cost, you better bet it's going to be awesome in Melira Pod!
The biggest thing, though, is the Scavenge ability. It's fantastic in a deck that runs mana dorks, and it's interaction with cards like Kitchen Finks, Murderous Redcap, and even Wall of Roots is a neat little side effect. If we see a cheap creature with a cheap scavenge cost, you better bet it's going to be awesome in Melira Pod!
The thing is, scavenge so far seems to be really expensive. And if that creature gets bounced or something it's completely useless. I like the mechanic, but I'm really not yet sure if it will actually be good or not. As of now, it's way too expensive on both creatures that we've seen.
The thing is, scavenge so far seems to be really expensive. And if that creature gets bounced or something it's completely useless. I like the mechanic, but I'm really not yet sure if it will actually be good or not. As of now, it's way too expensive on both creatures that we've seen.
I dislike Scavenge, so far. It's way too expensive and isn't really CA. It's virtual CA. i mean, honestly who plays with cards that say:
Counter Machine Whatever
Sorcery
Put However many +1/+1 Counters on a creature you control
It's good on thinks like Ajani Goldmane, or Ajani Caller of the Pride, because like, they do other things over and over again until they're stopped. they're also much cheaper...
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I dislike Scavenge, so far. It's way too expensive and isn't really CA. It's virtual CA. i mean, honestly who plays with cards that say:
Counter Machine Whatever
Sorcery
Put However many +1/+1 Counters on a creature you control
It's good on thinks like Ajani Goldmane, or Ajani Caller of the Pride, because like, they do other things over and over again until they're stopped. they're also much cheaper...
I think Scavenge is only really useable if it's stuck on some for cheap, or is attached to a body that is already decent (Dreg Mangler)
Might be kind of fun to play it in a Jund build. BBE into Dreg Mangler, swing for 6. Mangler Dies somehow? Turn your Bob into a bigger threat all it's own.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I think Scavenge is only really useable if it's stuck on some for cheap, or is attached to a body that is already decent (Dreg Mangler)
Might be kind of fun to play it in a Jund build. BBE into Dreg Mangler, swing for 6. Mangler Dies somehow? Turn your Bob into a bigger threat all it's own.
If they cost anything aggressively enough it'd be good. That was more of a 'So Far' analysis, i guess.
Kind of like how Chroma didn't really speak to me because it wasn't printed on anything decent.
What would you take out of Jund for it to make it a strictly better deck? (or at least turn some MUs into better MUs even if it makes others worse?)
I honestly can't think of one slot i wouldn't rather have any of the other deck staples that are already vying for 4x counts in the deck.
I think you'd have to get REALLY aggressive with it for it to fit Jund. Turning old creatures into something threatening later is inherently good. Scavenge is a well designed mechanic, but so far it's lackluster in terms of what we've been given, imo. (like, if it all is poorly costed as it is now)
Yeah, Jund really doesn't need anymore creatures than the ones it already has. The synergy behind the creatures it already has really doesn't need anything else. But maybe one of the charms could go in the deck.
Scavenge might work well for standard, but as high costed as it is right now, I think its a bit slow for most modern decks
Grim Roustabout is a jank common (sadly, it's not an awesome common like Steppe Lynx or Delver), and its take on the new mechanic Unleash is similarly jank. Can Wizards turn Unleash into an awesome mechanic? Does it have at least as much potential as Scavenge?
Maybe. I think if they make some of the unleash cards like strom blood beserker or something like that it would be pretty sweet. We also don't know if maybe not being able to block is necessarily the unleash mechanic. I think that card specifically will only be good in limited, but we'll see.
Grim Roustabout is a jank common (sadly, it's not an awesome common like Steppe Lynx or Delver), and its take on the new mechanic Unleash is similarly jank. Can Wizards turn Unleash into an awesome mechanic? Does it have at least as much potential as Scavenge?
This is some presumably Rakdos art that suggests a double strike creature:
I feel that Populate will be the winner mechanic of this set (Like how Dredge was in the original Ravnica). Although time will tell what Gatecrash will bring.
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I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Does Dreadbore replace Terminate in Jund or is instant speed too important? Jund isn't exactly a draw-go deck after all.
Thinking about it I guess there aren't all that many 'walkers in Modern right now anyway. Still.
I was actually just thinking about this, since Jund is still my weapon of choice in Modern. I think you still play Terminate, since planewalkers aren't too common in modern, and you have maelstrom pulse to fill a similar role.
Judge's Familiar seems like an instant 4-of in Death and Taxes. Goodbye Student of Warfare, we have a taxing 1-drop!
Mizzium Mortars looks pretty fringe. We get a virtual Flame Wave strapped to a worse Flame Slash. Would that versatility be any good?
Gatecreeper Vine only sees play where Sylvan Ranger does...except in Elves.
Azorius Charm doesn't seem good enough (costly bad removal spell or a cantrip; you'd board it out against combo, anyway), and Selesnya Charm only seems good enough if you like 2/2 Knight creature tokens with Vigilance.
Grove of the Guardian seems a little costly to put in a regular aggro deck, and W/x Tokens would rather play Gavony Township.
Nivix Guildmage's abilities are too expensive again.
Hypersonic Dragon seems hilarious in Grixis Cruel Control or something, but it's a shame the main protection spells are instants. Oh well, at least instant-speed discard, board wipes, and Cruel Ultimatums are fun.
Chromatic Lantern is one hilarious way for decks to dodge Blood Moon. Maybe I should stick some in my 5cc Cruel Control decks.
Dreadbore seems decent, but I'd rather have the instant-speed creature removal against manlands and combo critters--especially manlands, as Jund Charm deals with most combo critters.
And Jace, Architect of Thought is somewhat peculiar. He can protect himself just fine...against 1/X's. This means Empty the Warrens doesn't work, W/x Tokens needs anthems, and Exarch Twin gets crippled (but isn't down for the count). The -2 seems fine, and if you can protect him for one turn, he returns decent value. His ultimate is surprisingly underwhelming except against Tron--it's no Sadistic Sacrament. If this guy gets popular, prepare for a rise in the count of Pestermites and Grim Lavamancers in maindecks and bounce in sideboards.
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I was actually just thinking about this, since Jund is still my weapon of choice in Modern. I think you still play Terminate, since planewalkers aren't too common in modern, and you have maelstrom pulse to fill a similar role.
I feel like the pluses and minuses of each one are fairly marginal. Regenerating creatures without hexproof are irrelevant in the format, instant speed is not super-relevant to Jund specifically, and planeswalkers are also not especially common.
That said, I think instant speed does outweigh killing planeswalkers in the format as-is because it lets you hit manlands. If JTMS were ever to be unbanned or in general if planeswalkers became a dominant force in Modern I think Dreadbore would be the choice.
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^With Grisly Salvage you put the rest of the cards in your graveyard instead of the bottom of your library, so you can set up Loam/Rites/Living End/Dredge etc.
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Flashing in a Knight is the most powerful mode, and an OK combat trick. Not as powerful, but also not as blatant as Restoration Angel.
Boosting P/T and giving trample means a tiny bit of reach and safety from toughness-based removal, but Giant Growth is already unplayable so this mode is marginal.
Exile target creature with power >= 5 - what does it kill? Knight of the Reliquary? Even Goyf seldom gets that big unless the game goes long.
In short - do you need a 2/2 for 2 with flash and vigilance very often? If not, look elsewhere.
EDIT: We haven't seen too many Populate cards yet, but one of them might give the Knight token a run for his money.
but its not outclassing. think twice is card advantage. simply drawing a card isn't. i think what i proposed is actually weaker than izzet's. but time will tell. i have high hopes for this cycle.
Be careful with that parallel, though. It's not as relevant a comparison as it seems. First, Dreg Mangler has built-in card advantage and BRG doesn't. Mangler can be cast T2 off a mana dork, then "flashed back" after death to make that same mana dork into a monster.
Secondly, it's B/ instead of R/, which is significant because B/ decks tend to be a bit more comfortable with a beefier creature base than R/ decks (burn often wants to play a fast game and it rewards early aggression strategies, while black removal spells don't need to hurry as much - they're just as effective turn 7 as they are turn 2, and they can't go to the face, so no need to worry about getting the opponent within burn range), which makes the 3CMC casting cost look relatively leaner.
The biggest thing, though, is the Scavenge ability. It's fantastic in a deck that runs mana dorks, and it's interaction with cards like Kitchen Finks, Murderous Redcap, and even Wall of Roots is a neat little side effect. If we see a cheap creature with a cheap scavenge cost, you better bet it's going to be awesome in Melira Pod!
The thing is, scavenge so far seems to be really expensive. And if that creature gets bounced or something it's completely useless. I like the mechanic, but I'm really not yet sure if it will actually be good or not. As of now, it's way too expensive on both creatures that we've seen.
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I dislike Scavenge, so far. It's way too expensive and isn't really CA. It's virtual CA. i mean, honestly who plays with cards that say:
Counter Machine Whatever
Sorcery
Put However many +1/+1 Counters on a creature you control
It's good on thinks like Ajani Goldmane, or Ajani Caller of the Pride, because like, they do other things over and over again until they're stopped. they're also much cheaper...
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Ok, not in Modern, but still.
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I think Scavenge is only really useable if it's stuck on some for cheap, or is attached to a body that is already decent (Dreg Mangler)
Might be kind of fun to play it in a Jund build. BBE into Dreg Mangler, swing for 6. Mangler Dies somehow? Turn your Bob into a bigger threat all it's own.
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If they cost anything aggressively enough it'd be good. That was more of a 'So Far' analysis, i guess.
Kind of like how Chroma didn't really speak to me because it wasn't printed on anything decent.
What would you take out of Jund for it to make it a strictly better deck? (or at least turn some MUs into better MUs even if it makes others worse?)
I honestly can't think of one slot i wouldn't rather have any of the other deck staples that are already vying for 4x counts in the deck.
I think you'd have to get REALLY aggressive with it for it to fit Jund. Turning old creatures into something threatening later is inherently good. Scavenge is a well designed mechanic, but so far it's lackluster in terms of what we've been given, imo. (like, if it all is poorly costed as it is now)
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Scavenge might work well for standard, but as high costed as it is right now, I think its a bit slow for most modern decks
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This is some presumably Rakdos art that suggests a double strike creature:
(I'm basing this on the similarity to Crypt Champion).
If the base rate is good enough, Unleash could be decent on a double striker...
It's going to need to be pretty pushed to be any good, though.
I'm also holding out some hope that there will be at least a couple decent support cards.
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Thinking about it I guess there aren't all that many 'walkers in Modern right now anyway. Still.
I was actually just thinking about this, since Jund is still my weapon of choice in Modern. I think you still play Terminate, since planewalkers aren't too common in modern, and you have maelstrom pulse to fill a similar role.
This is a glorious day for Modern.
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Big Johnny.
Mizzium Mortars looks pretty fringe. We get a virtual Flame Wave strapped to a worse Flame Slash. Would that versatility be any good?
Gatecreeper Vine only sees play where Sylvan Ranger does...except in Elves.
Azorius Charm doesn't seem good enough (costly bad removal spell or a cantrip; you'd board it out against combo, anyway), and Selesnya Charm only seems good enough if you like 2/2 Knight creature tokens with Vigilance.
Grove of the Guardian seems a little costly to put in a regular aggro deck, and W/x Tokens would rather play Gavony Township.
Nivix Guildmage's abilities are too expensive again.
Hypersonic Dragon seems hilarious in Grixis Cruel Control or something, but it's a shame the main protection spells are instants. Oh well, at least instant-speed discard, board wipes, and Cruel Ultimatums are fun.
Grisly Salvage is only good if Commune with Nature is.
Chromatic Lantern is one hilarious way for decks to dodge Blood Moon. Maybe I should stick some in my 5cc Cruel Control decks.
Dreadbore seems decent, but I'd rather have the instant-speed creature removal against manlands and combo critters--especially manlands, as Jund Charm deals with most combo critters.
And Jace, Architect of Thought is somewhat peculiar. He can protect himself just fine...against 1/X's. This means Empty the Warrens doesn't work, W/x Tokens needs anthems, and Exarch Twin gets crippled (but isn't down for the count). The -2 seems fine, and if you can protect him for one turn, he returns decent value. His ultimate is surprisingly underwhelming except against Tron--it's no Sadistic Sacrament. If this guy gets popular, prepare for a rise in the count of Pestermites and Grim Lavamancers in maindecks and bounce in sideboards.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
That said, I think instant speed does outweigh killing planeswalkers in the format as-is because it lets you hit manlands. If JTMS were ever to be unbanned or in general if planeswalkers became a dominant force in Modern I think Dreadbore would be the choice.
It's like a combination Mulch/Tracker's Instincts that digs deeper, in two colors.
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Big Johnny.
It's very good, but Path to Exile and Bant Charm outclass it in this format.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Boosting P/T and giving trample means a tiny bit of reach and safety from toughness-based removal, but Giant Growth is already unplayable so this mode is marginal.
Exile target creature with power >= 5 - what does it kill? Knight of the Reliquary? Even Goyf seldom gets that big unless the game goes long.
In short - do you need a 2/2 for 2 with flash and vigilance very often? If not, look elsewhere.
EDIT: We haven't seen too many Populate cards yet, but one of them might give the Knight token a run for his money.
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Big Johnny.