Tarmagoyf and Bob? I'm still pretty new to modern, so my opinion isn't worth much yet, but it seems like they're nearly format warping. Just about any deck in their color runs them, especially Bob, and they have no significant drawbacks.
How do you think it would affect the format if they were both banned? It would definitely knock Jund off it's pedastal.
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Well I've been doing some testing w/ a budget version of Jund, running Phyrexian Arena & Skinshifter instead of Bob & Goyf, and the deck isn't NEARLY as powerful. I don't think Bloodbraid Elf is the problem as much as they are. Not that stripping her wouldn't gut the deck, but keeping her around isn't making it the #1 that it is.
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in a format with little to no card advantage, bob is very good. but he's not ban worthy. not all black decks run him either. goyf, despite what people think about him, isn't format warping either. not all green decks run him, and at the end of the day, he's just a very efficient beater.
banning goyf would be hilarious. especially since people have been crying for it to be reprinted. but at the end of the day, it is not that good. its not the be all end all card in modern. banning bob would be less hilarious and wouldn't do that much to hurt jund. jund's problem is that the cards it runs are the best in the format and are too efficient for their own good. one mana discard (or shaman, which is a sick chimera of bop, lavamancer and scavenging ooze), two mana catch all removal, three mana deal with problem creature/tear your opponent's hand apart, four mana get one of the previous for free.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
if you dump bob and goyf you're killing so many decks beyond jund. The idea of bannign BBE is to nerf jund and jund alone. If you ban bob, doran decks will be very unhappy (I think some swords to plowshares variants and w/b tokens run him too). If you ban goyf, sure, jund gets worse but you're also making RUG delver way less fun, again, doran decks are unhappy, and so are a few others. Jund is a strong deck, sure, but there's no reason to ruin the format by banning bob and goyf. Also, goyf is being reprinted in modern masters in june... they're not going to ban him.
I don't care for What If threads as it's all hypothetical baseless speculation, but it's fair claim. 'Goyf is a fantastic card... in Legacy. Ever since the downfall of Zoo (it's still a legitimate deck but nowhere near the hype), I think 'Goyf's image of wrecking the modern scene has calmed down. There's a lot of easy ways to get rid of it. At end of the deck, he's simply a vanilla beater. What makes him scary is the possibility of a big one in first 4 turns.
Bob and BBE are what Jund decks win, more-so BBE cascading into devastating spells like Blightning or Maelstrom Pulse - and then beating your face for 4 (or more).
I don't see a reason why Goyf would be banned. Bob would get the axe first, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. His draw engine is fantastic but it's nowhere near the broken levels of Necropotence. At end of the day, it's a Bear that depends on a good shuffle and luck.
Good? Yes.
Great? Yes.
Ban-worthy? No.
Overpriced? Certainly.
You don't see a reason why goyf should be banned? Well, here's two:
-Easily splashable in any deck that runs green
-Powerful beater for an incredibly low cost
People tend to minimize the term "vanilla creature". That 5/4 from Shards (forgot the name) is vanilla, and he's awesome. Goyf is a BIG, incredibly cheap, "vanilla" creature at worst. At best, he is a HUGE (8/9), incredibly cheap "vanilla".
I don't understand why they banned Wild Nacatl and left goyf. Nacatl is much easier to get rid of, no matter if it's a 3/3 on turn 2 (goyf, by the way, can be a 3/4 or more on turn 2).
You don't see a reason why goyf should be banned? Well, here's two:
-Easily splashable in any deck that runs green
-Powerful beater for an incredibly low cost
I don't understand why they banned Wild Nacatl and left goyf. Nacatl is much easier to get rid of, no matter if it's a 3/3 on turn 2 (goyf, by the way, can be a 3/4 or more on turn 2).
Tarmogoyf isn't always that big though. I've had hands where an opening Tarmogoyf came down as like a 1/2 or a 2/3. Sure, most of the time he's a fatty, but there's no guarantees. Also, he's somewhat vulnerable to graveyard hate, which we see a lot more of now with Shamans all over the place. Wild Nacatl was much more consistently a 3/3 on turn 2 than Tarmogoyf is a 4/5 on turn 3. 3/4 is actually the most common value for Tarmogoyfs when I drop them early game, and I honestly think he's something green needs to be worth playing in Modern. No bans, please.
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"The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself." - William Blake
Bob is not a broken card in Modern, not even a little.
His drawback is severe. Life is a precious resource in Modern, much more than in Legacy and Vintage. Running Bob effectively prevents you running any cards over 4cmc or cards with split costs (like Spectral Procession in Wb tokens.) You don't want to run a lot of 4-drops either with him in your deck.
Also, he doesn't even provide card advantage until your next upkeep. Compare to Snapcaster Mage, Wall of Omens, Tidehollow Sculler and other cards that give you card advantage the very turn they come into play.
Pretty sure that this belongs in the banned list discussion thread.
Sorry, Goyf and Bob are not going to be banned. They're expensive, and I have a feeling that's the entire reason you want them banned, despite what you might say. Modern Masters will be a thing. Buy a bunch of boosters when it comes out. Otherwise, don't play Jund.
A modicum of critical thinking and an hour of playtesting in Modern should be enough to realize how unremarkable and suicidal Bob is in Modern, and Nacatl made Zoo the only aggro deck worth playing. Goyf does no such thing.
Sorry, Goyf and Bob are not going to be banned. They're expensive, and I have a feeling that's the entire reason you want them banned, despite what you might say. Modern Masters will be a thing. Buy a bunch of boosters when it comes out. Otherwise, don't play Jund.
A modicum of critical thinking and an hour of playtesting in Modern should be enough to realize how unremarkable and suicidal Bob is in Modern, and Nacatl made Zoo the only aggro deck worth playing. Goyf does no such thing.
I can't stress enough how true this is. Bob has cost me many games because of flipping bloodbraids and lils.
Why do I agree with everything you say? You're even in my signature o.o
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Build a man a fire, he'll be warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
There has never been a land that enters the battlefield untapped unconditionally and taps for two colors unconditionally. That would be strictly better than a basic land
No, I wasn't bringing up banning them because of the price. Price should have no effect on bannings. I was just bringing it up for discussion, since they're by and far the most known poster childs of Modern, and they're both VERY effective at what they do for low cost.
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No, I wasn't bringing up banning them because of the price. Price should have no effect on bannings. I was just bringing it up for discussion, since they're by and far the most known poster childs of Modern, and they're both VERY effective at what they do for low cost.
How are they the poster children for modern? Bob is in ONE deck and Goyf is in Jund and RUG tempo (which I haven't seen for ages). The other decks with Goyf and Bob are either tier 2 or lower.
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Build a man a fire, he'll be warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
There has never been a land that enters the battlefield untapped unconditionally and taps for two colors unconditionally. That would be strictly better than a basic land
Tarmagoyf and Bob? I'm still pretty new to modern, so my opinion isn't worth much yet, but it seems like they're nearly format warping. Just about any deck in their color runs them, especially Bob, and they have no significant drawbacks.
Pod doesn't tend to run Goyf, even though it easily can (since it's always part green). Its slots are generally better used for creatures with abilities (mostly of the mana-producing, deck-hosing, or comboing variety).
Melira Pod, 4cc Gifts, and Burn also don't tend to run Bob, even though they run black. Melira Pod and 4cc Gifts' curves are too high, and Burn aims to make creature removal slightly useless (I suppose Grim Lavamancer lists might like Bob more--when I tried Bob in Rakdos Deck Wins without Lavamancer, Bob just died way more often than he died in Jund, so he almost never actually drew into burn spells).
I don't think that they will ban anything before modern masters comes out, and I fully expect BBE, Tarmo and BOB to be in Modern Masters.
It will be interesting to see if the uptick in card availability for Jund causes it to sufficiently overtake the meta so as to necessitate bannings.
I remember hearing someone from Wizards (Forsythe?) mention that they are keeping an eye on Jund. Though powerful it is certainly not unbeatable.
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YMTC: We need a spikey red enchantment. My creations:
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Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
Why do I agree with everything you say? You're even in my signature o.o
What can I say? Great minds think alike
Pros would laugh at this format if Bob and Goyf were banned. They would jump ship. Power is a good thing for the game when its reasonable. This isn't pauper, this is a sanctioned, competitive format.
I dont think anything should be banned, but if anything from Jund were to get banned, I would take BBE. It is one of the best cards in Jund, and it is only used in Jund therefore only nerfing it. I am all in favor of a Wild Nacatl unbanning... I wanna play some tribal flames zoo!
They just need to make a spell that exiles all yards then does 1 damage / -1-1 to all creatures jahahehe. Could be a sweet Grul or Orzov card in the next set
They are definitely very powerful cards and it is good that you were able to recognize that. When you consider the reason they ban cards though, too fast combo cards (rite of flame/Chrome Mox), format warping cards (Wild Nacatl/Jace/Stoneforge), and just horrible to play against (More of Legacy in Sharazad/Worldgorger Dragon), neither Goyf nor Bob really fit into any of these slots. They are just very efficient and powerful cards.
How do you think it would affect the format if they were both banned? It would definitely knock Jund off it's pedastal.
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banning goyf would be hilarious. especially since people have been crying for it to be reprinted. but at the end of the day, it is not that good. its not the be all end all card in modern. banning bob would be less hilarious and wouldn't do that much to hurt jund. jund's problem is that the cards it runs are the best in the format and are too efficient for their own good. one mana discard (or shaman, which is a sick chimera of bop, lavamancer and scavenging ooze), two mana catch all removal, three mana deal with problem creature/tear your opponent's hand apart, four mana get one of the previous for free.
Bob and BBE are what Jund decks win, more-so BBE cascading into devastating spells like Blightning or Maelstrom Pulse - and then beating your face for 4 (or more).
I don't see a reason why Goyf would be banned. Bob would get the axe first, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. His draw engine is fantastic but it's nowhere near the broken levels of Necropotence. At end of the day, it's a Bear that depends on a good shuffle and luck.
Good? Yes.
Great? Yes.
Ban-worthy? No.
Overpriced? Certainly.
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
-Easily splashable in any deck that runs green
-Powerful beater for an incredibly low cost
People tend to minimize the term "vanilla creature". That 5/4 from Shards (forgot the name) is vanilla, and he's awesome. Goyf is a BIG, incredibly cheap, "vanilla" creature at worst. At best, he is a HUGE (8/9), incredibly cheap "vanilla".
I don't understand why they banned Wild Nacatl and left goyf. Nacatl is much easier to get rid of, no matter if it's a 3/3 on turn 2 (goyf, by the way, can be a 3/4 or more on turn 2).
Tarmogoyf isn't always that big though. I've had hands where an opening Tarmogoyf came down as like a 1/2 or a 2/3. Sure, most of the time he's a fatty, but there's no guarantees. Also, he's somewhat vulnerable to graveyard hate, which we see a lot more of now with Shamans all over the place. Wild Nacatl was much more consistently a 3/3 on turn 2 than Tarmogoyf is a 4/5 on turn 3. 3/4 is actually the most common value for Tarmogoyfs when I drop them early game, and I honestly think he's something green needs to be worth playing in Modern. No bans, please.
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
His drawback is severe. Life is a precious resource in Modern, much more than in Legacy and Vintage. Running Bob effectively prevents you running any cards over 4cmc or cards with split costs (like Spectral Procession in Wb tokens.) You don't want to run a lot of 4-drops either with him in your deck.
Also, he doesn't even provide card advantage until your next upkeep. Compare to Snapcaster Mage, Wall of Omens, Tidehollow Sculler and other cards that give you card advantage the very turn they come into play.
Sorry, Goyf and Bob are not going to be banned. They're expensive, and I have a feeling that's the entire reason you want them banned, despite what you might say. Modern Masters will be a thing. Buy a bunch of boosters when it comes out. Otherwise, don't play Jund.
A modicum of critical thinking and an hour of playtesting in Modern should be enough to realize how unremarkable and suicidal Bob is in Modern, and Nacatl made Zoo the only aggro deck worth playing. Goyf does no such thing.
CG
Yes. Yes it does.
This.
I can't stress enough how true this is. Bob has cost me many games because of flipping bloodbraids and lils.
Why do I agree with everything you say? You're even in my signature o.o
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Tell that to my mana-base.
How are they the poster children for modern? Bob is in ONE deck and Goyf is in Jund and RUG tempo (which I haven't seen for ages). The other decks with Goyf and Bob are either tier 2 or lower.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Pod doesn't tend to run Goyf, even though it easily can (since it's always part green). Its slots are generally better used for creatures with abilities (mostly of the mana-producing, deck-hosing, or comboing variety).
Melira Pod, 4cc Gifts, and Burn also don't tend to run Bob, even though they run black. Melira Pod and 4cc Gifts' curves are too high, and Burn aims to make creature removal slightly useless (I suppose Grim Lavamancer lists might like Bob more--when I tried Bob in Rakdos Deck Wins without Lavamancer, Bob just died way more often than he died in Jund, so he almost never actually drew into burn spells).
Dega midrange 1-0
It will be interesting to see if the uptick in card availability for Jund causes it to sufficiently overtake the meta so as to necessitate bannings.
I remember hearing someone from Wizards (Forsythe?) mention that they are keeping an eye on Jund. Though powerful it is certainly not unbeatable.
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
Fires Rf Salvation
What can I say? Great minds think alike
Pros would laugh at this format if Bob and Goyf were banned. They would jump ship. Power is a good thing for the game when its reasonable. This isn't pauper, this is a sanctioned, competitive format.
CG
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BChainer, Dementia MasterB
Legacy
0Manaless Dredge0
RGoblinsR
Standard
RBWThe AristocratsWBR
-Tom