and nopes. Restoration Control is definitely not the right name. If anyone cared to play the deck, it is not a control deck at all but a typical tempo deck. Sutor even said that you will tap out with this deck to put down creatures instead of holding up mana.
It says No to everything, and plays reactivly. Hall marks of a control deck, even if it doesnt fit the old ideas of a control deck.
Thank you, I will be fixing that now, though it will take a few moments.
-edit- Oh I see what happened, you got noted as a "The Rock" deck, instead of "Hate Bears", I think thecouncil.es had the deck listed as "The Rock" forgive me on that. Either way, fixed, The Rock/Hate Bears noted accordingly. Also grats on your finish of course ^.^
Yeah. recently there has been a lot of blending of archtypes as modern is a bit warped right now... you'll find some stuff like that for a while.
See - and here's the problem: it does NOT say not to anything and plays actively - if played correctly. Just watch Flores or read Sutors article (german, though).
The guys who had success with the deck tapped out a lot for GoST, Splicer etc. to even out the board until BSA is comes down.
Decks that say no are the new UW breed with verdict etc. and UW planeswalkers but certainly not the Sutor/Flores list.
There are actually two versions of the deck running around, but considering he's got more spells than business cards, and a wall. I'm not sure I would call any deck with a wall in it tempo.
It's a tough discussion, because tapping out probably works well against Jund which can win the card wars, but the deck may need to play reactive at other times. That's why its flexible. Isn't that the definition of midrange?
If we could pin these decks down, esp if we see more of the Boros type list we might break Restoration strategies out of Uxx Control and move them to their own sub, but right now the deck seems to be too fluid.
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See - and here's the problem: it does NOT say not to anything and plays actively - if played correctly. Just watch Flores or read Sutors article (german, though).
The guys who had success with the deck tapped out a lot for GoST, Splicer etc. to even out the board until BSA is comes down.
Decks that say no are the new UW breed with verdict etc. and UW planeswalkers but certainly not the Sutor/Flores list.
Geist is totally outdated in a format filled with souls, and sorcerery speed is alsmot nonexistant in the deck.
U/W plays 4 leaks, 4 snares, and at least 2 cryptics, together with walls to delay the game and get some card adventage, vendilion cliques and angels at instant speed, and snapcaster for more card advantage and added permission/removal.
That and one (or two) 5/6 cmc threats in the form of baneslayer, sun titan, or batterskull.
That is control in my book, not tempo. Sure, its not draw-go, but still control.
Anyways, thanks for the info man, the thread is very useful, keep it up!
[COLOR=DarkOrange]It says No to everything, and plays reactivly. Hall marks of a control deck, even if it doesnt fit the old ideas of a control deck.
I have to absolutely disagree. You tap out every turn to play a threat thats sorcery speed whenever available. If you have a safe option then of course you would play reactively, just like I would play reactively with Jund holding BBE in my hand if my opponent hasn't done anything yet.
The only difference between UW Restoration and Jund is the manabase. How could a deck with Geist of St. Traft be considered reactive? Just because it doesn't have Delver of Secrets doesn't mean it's reactive in nature. It has the tools to out tempo your opponent with cheap spot removal, gain card advantage, and hold favourable positions. Holding up mana to counter a spell in this deck is no different than holding up mana for removal in Jund. Making those decisions are the exact same.
I have to absolutely disagree. You tap out every turn to play a threat thats sorcery speed whenever available. If you have a safe option then of course you would play reactively, just like I would play reactively with Jund holding BBE in my hand if my opponent hasn't done anything yet.
The only difference between UW Restoration and Jund is the manabase. How could a deck with Geist of St. Traft be considered reactive? Just because it doesn't have Delver of Secrets doesn't mean it's reactive in nature. It has the tools to out tempo your opponent with cheap spot removal, gain card advantage, and hold favourable positions. Holding up mana to counter a spell in this deck is no different than holding up mana for removal in Jund. Making those decisions are the exact same.
So Jund is a Tempo deck? You see why I hate that name. Jund is a "Midrange" deck or if you prefer "Aggro Control" so is Restoration. I agree the plan is the same even if the cards are different.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
How about tapout control? With reference to this article.
Relevant quotes:
"[Y]ou play some removal spells so that you can play a Titan [Baneslayer Angel] at a point where it dominates the board (because they don’t have anything, since you killed it)."
"[I]t wants to use those control elements to buy time until your powerful threats come online, rather than trying to construct a scenario in which you can’t lose anymore."
"[T]hey do not assume they’re naturally going to win if the game reaches turn 50, they actively want to do something to end the game before their opponents can draw out of the situation."
Seeing as there's 5ish different lists, there's no real way to answer this question. The decks that run Geist of saint traft, I'd call hybrid control. If you land a turn 3 geist, you're gonna spend every card you have out-tempoing your opponent until they're dead. When you don't draw geist, you play the control role for a while until you draw something that lets you switch gears into kill them mode.
Non-geist versions I'd almost unilaterally name Midrange control since they're usually geared towards control every aspect of the board with things like Blade splicer, wraths, tec edges, titans, walkers, etc. etc. I'd honestly have to see a list to classify the deck.
A much more meaningful discussion would be which version of the deck is better. Though likely it's just going to devolve into how one feels about GoST. Personally, if Boggle deck stays popular, I'd probably lean towards being a more control deck since wrath effects seem more valuable and Blade splicer is a big game. That deck goes away? Geist, Geist, baby.
For what it's worth, I don't think you can correctly classify anything if you are just using the terms aggro, control, combo, tempo, and midrange. I use the Adrian Sullivan classification system which imo very clearly defines archetypes and makes classifying decks pretty simple.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Seeing as there's 5ish different lists, there's no real way to answer this question. The decks that run Geist of saint traft, I'd call hybrid control. If you land a turn 3 geist, you're gonna spend every card you have out-tempoing your opponent until they're dead. When you don't draw geist, you play the control role for a while until you draw something that lets you switch gears into kill them mode.
Non-geist versions I'd almost unilaterally name Midrange control since they're usually geared towards control every aspect of the board with things like Blade splicer, wraths, tec edges, titans, walkers, etc. etc. I'd honestly have to see a list to classify the deck.
A much more meaningful discussion would be which version of the deck is better. Though likely it's just going to devolve into how one feels about GoST. Personally, if Boggle deck stays popular, I'd probably lean towards being a more control deck since wrath effects seem more valuable and Blade splicer is a big game. That deck goes away? Geist, Geist, baby.
For what it's worth, I don't think you can correctly classify anything if you are just using the terms aggro, control, combo, tempo, and midrange. I use the Adrian Sullivan classification system which imo very clearly defines archetypes and makes classifying decks pretty simple.
Pretty spot on, i think. I feel like GOST is the best card in the deck as you can often just cast him, untap and then ride him to victory.
With that said, UW resto doesn't have any amazing matchups. Kiki pod, storm and splinter twin are probably the best MU's. Everything else is about 50/50 on a good day so you should have a really good reason for playing the deck and not blood braid elf.
Looking at the deck and after testing it a bit I have came to conclusion that it sits on the line of tempo and disruptive aggro(like jund)
Using WOTCs definitions as follows.
A midrange deck usually starts out at 2-6(not including mana dorks) and is usually pretty aggressive and has a high number of threats vs disruption.
A tempo deck is a deck that runs a varied number of creatures(usually 10-18) combined with bounce, cheap counterspells, removal, and some times cantrips. The basic idea is to play 1-2 threats then protect them with your spells.
A control deck is a deck that tries to win on resource advantage instead of trying to develop the board. Generally speaking a control deck will be at least 20, but more often than not around 30 reactive and utility spells.
A disruptive aggro deck is a deck that uses efficient creatures(usually 16 or less) and couples that with discard, removal, or counterspells. Basically using your discard etc in between playing threats to hinder your opponents game plan enough to win.
In essence this deck is the aggro against combo decks, but the control deck in most other situations in a way similar to tempo decks while it also builds its board presence like disruptive aggro/midrange.
Looking at the deck in general it is quite like delver-less delver. Thus it is more in the vein of midrange/tempo instead of control.
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It's definitely not control; it's fundamentally a threat deck, not an answer deck. Now, since it's also clearly not aggro (with the walls and all) the question is where in the murky "aggro-control" spectrum it falls.
To me the answer is midrange. A tempo deck wants to play small threats early, and then keep the big things from hitting the board with its control spells. A midrange deck, on the other hand, is more interested in using its control spells early to slow an opponent down, allowing it to dominate the board with medium-to-large threats. The latter is, I think, much more in pattern of this deck.
Take this with a grain of salt, though, as I have not played the deck myself.
Edit: It's worth noting though, in the aggressive format that is Modern, even being "not a control deck" it's still playing the control role against more or less the whole format. (4C Gifts as a possible exception? Haven't played that matchup.)
There is a discussion going on over whether or not UW Restoration is a control deck. Please use this thread to discuss this. t_C
It says No to everything, and plays reactivly. Hall marks of a control deck, even if it doesnt fit the old ideas of a control deck.
Yeah. recently there has been a lot of blending of archtypes as modern is a bit warped right now... you'll find some stuff like that for a while.
There are actually two versions of the deck running around, but considering he's got more spells than business cards, and a wall. I'm not sure I would call any deck with a wall in it tempo.
2 Wall of Omens
2 Cryptic Command
2 Dismember
4 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
4 Spell Snare
It's a tough discussion, because tapping out probably works well against Jund which can win the card wars, but the deck may need to play reactive at other times. That's why its flexible. Isn't that the definition of midrange?
If we could pin these decks down, esp if we see more of the Boros type list we might break Restoration strategies out of Uxx Control and move them to their own sub, but right now the deck seems to be too fluid.
Geist is totally outdated in a format filled with souls, and sorcerery speed is alsmot nonexistant in the deck.
U/W plays 4 leaks, 4 snares, and at least 2 cryptics, together with walls to delay the game and get some card adventage, vendilion cliques and angels at instant speed, and snapcaster for more card advantage and added permission/removal.
That and one (or two) 5/6 cmc threats in the form of baneslayer, sun titan, or batterskull.
That is control in my book, not tempo. Sure, its not draw-go, but still control.
Anyways, thanks for the info man, the thread is very useful, keep it up!
I have to absolutely disagree. You tap out every turn to play a threat thats sorcery speed whenever available. If you have a safe option then of course you would play reactively, just like I would play reactively with Jund holding BBE in my hand if my opponent hasn't done anything yet.
The only difference between UW Restoration and Jund is the manabase. How could a deck with Geist of St. Traft be considered reactive? Just because it doesn't have Delver of Secrets doesn't mean it's reactive in nature. It has the tools to out tempo your opponent with cheap spot removal, gain card advantage, and hold favourable positions. Holding up mana to counter a spell in this deck is no different than holding up mana for removal in Jund. Making those decisions are the exact same.
So Jund is a Tempo deck? You see why I hate that name. Jund is a "Midrange" deck or if you prefer "Aggro Control" so is Restoration. I agree the plan is the same even if the cards are different.
We had this discussion about Faeries too.
Relevant quotes:
"[Y]ou play some removal spells so that you can play a Titan [Baneslayer Angel] at a point where it dominates the board (because they don’t have anything, since you killed it)."
"[I]t wants to use those control elements to buy time until your powerful threats come online, rather than trying to construct a scenario in which you can’t lose anymore."
"[T]hey do not assume they’re naturally going to win if the game reaches turn 50, they actively want to do something to end the game before their opponents can draw out of the situation."
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
It plays aggressively from turns two to five and reactively thereafter. Much the same as Jund, Junk, and etc.
But, regardless of whichever anyone thinks it is, it should have its own subforum. Soul Sisters or Burn should drop back down to Established.
Non-geist versions I'd almost unilaterally name Midrange control since they're usually geared towards control every aspect of the board with things like Blade splicer, wraths, tec edges, titans, walkers, etc. etc. I'd honestly have to see a list to classify the deck.
A much more meaningful discussion would be which version of the deck is better. Though likely it's just going to devolve into how one feels about GoST. Personally, if Boggle deck stays popular, I'd probably lean towards being a more control deck since wrath effects seem more valuable and Blade splicer is a big game. That deck goes away? Geist, Geist, baby.
For what it's worth, I don't think you can correctly classify anything if you are just using the terms aggro, control, combo, tempo, and midrange. I use the Adrian Sullivan classification system which imo very clearly defines archetypes and makes classifying decks pretty simple.
Pretty spot on, i think. I feel like GOST is the best card in the deck as you can often just cast him, untap and then ride him to victory.
With that said, UW resto doesn't have any amazing matchups. Kiki pod, storm and splinter twin are probably the best MU's. Everything else is about 50/50 on a good day so you should have a really good reason for playing the deck and not blood braid elf.
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Island
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Tectonic Edge
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Marsh Flats
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Plains
~19 CREATURES
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Restoration Angel
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Wall of Omens
2 Blade Splicer
1 Baneslayer Angel
4 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
4 Spell Snare
2 Dismember
2 Cryptic Command
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Celestial Purge
2 Negate
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
2 Spellskite
3 Stony Silence
2 Supreme Verdict
Deck list for discussion.
Looking at the deck and after testing it a bit I have came to conclusion that it sits on the line of tempo and disruptive aggro(like jund)
Using WOTCs definitions as follows.
A midrange deck usually starts out at 2-6(not including mana dorks) and is usually pretty aggressive and has a high number of threats vs disruption.
A tempo deck is a deck that runs a varied number of creatures(usually 10-18) combined with bounce, cheap counterspells, removal, and some times cantrips. The basic idea is to play 1-2 threats then protect them with your spells.
A control deck is a deck that tries to win on resource advantage instead of trying to develop the board. Generally speaking a control deck will be at least 20, but more often than not around 30 reactive and utility spells.
A disruptive aggro deck is a deck that uses efficient creatures(usually 16 or less) and couples that with discard, removal, or counterspells. Basically using your discard etc in between playing threats to hinder your opponents game plan enough to win.
In essence this deck is the aggro against combo decks, but the control deck in most other situations in a way similar to tempo decks while it also builds its board presence like disruptive aggro/midrange.
Looking at the deck in general it is quite like delver-less delver. Thus it is more in the vein of midrange/tempo instead of control.
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
Theres the thread for my full blown mid range uw resto blade. I think it is a super competetive version, and I kill uw control when Im vs it.
To me the answer is midrange. A tempo deck wants to play small threats early, and then keep the big things from hitting the board with its control spells. A midrange deck, on the other hand, is more interested in using its control spells early to slow an opponent down, allowing it to dominate the board with medium-to-large threats. The latter is, I think, much more in pattern of this deck.
Take this with a grain of salt, though, as I have not played the deck myself.
Edit: It's worth noting though, in the aggressive format that is Modern, even being "not a control deck" it's still playing the control role against more or less the whole format. (4C Gifts as a possible exception? Haven't played that matchup.)