I don't remember seeing it in any of the post, but what about Duskmantle Guildmage and Jace's Archivist? It would also feed your graveyard for spells to be used with Snapcaster Mage.
Does surgical extraction maybe have a place in this deck?
Extirpate is better if you're playing enough black to support it, which you are.
I like where the deck building is going, though I'm still a bit flaky on whether I like the deck. I will at least say that I think it has potential. To be fair, Mindcrank won't see much removal, since artifact removal is a SB thing, and most decks only play a couple of them. The other thing, is that the creature resolving when you go off (if you can get that much mana) is immune to removal, since we can't stop it by killing it, since triggers go on the stack and still resolve.
What do you guys think of running it in a Tezz control shell (Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Explosives, 3sphere etc.)? We then have Tezz to search for half of the combo and have a secondary win in him in case the combo fails.
i would agree a tezz shell is good enough to start. this is my rough list
basically the nut draw i had in mind was:
turn 1: land, vial
turn 2: land, vial(1), mindcrank
turn 3: land, vial(2), vial in duskmantle guildmage, slaughter pact opponent's creature and win that turn. OR vial in duskmantle guildmage at the end opponent's turn 3 and activate ability in reponse to their removal spell and win.
actually this combo is quite resilient. correct me if im wrong. once you stick a guildmage and a mindcrank with 1UB open, they cant kill your guildmage cause we can activate in response and then the ability goes onto the stack before the removal spell resolves.
ok the ability resolve. then the removal spell resolve, putting the removal spell and the guildmage into the graveyard and goes off.
i would agree a tezz shell is good enough to start. this is my rough list
basically the nut draw i had in mind was:
turn 1: land, vial
turn 2: land, vial(1), mindcrank
turn 3: land, vial(2), vial in duskmantle guildmage, slaughter pact opponent's creature and win that turn. OR vial in duskmantle guildmage at the end opponent's turn 3 and activate ability in reponse to their removal spell and win.
actually this combo is quite resilient. correct me if im wrong. once you stick a guildmage and a mindcrank with 1UB open, they cant kill your guildmage cause we can activate in response and then the ability goes onto the stack before the removal spell resolves.
ok the ability resolve. then the removal spell resolve, putting the removal spell and the guildmage into the graveyard and goes off.
yes you can activate the guildmage in response to them casting a card then they'll start the loop and lose, the only things i would use as enablers would be ghost quarter and if you really need something theres gut shot the myr seems really bad since you can only get it off of a vial and even then I don't like vial because you play too few creatures for it to be worthwhile in my opinion.
You have two of the best control cards right now I reckon: Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge and then you have a Trinket Mage package to further lock down the game.
You have two of the best control cards right now I reckon: Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge and then you have a Trinket Mage package to further lock down the game.
my only problem with playing those cards is you have no real way to protect them and i fear for abrupt decay.
my only problem with playing those cards is you have no real way to protect them and i fear for abrupt decay.
Hmm I guess that's true. This is not intended as a kill the opponent turn 4 kinda deck though. This is more intended as a chill_behind_the_bridge_and_strip_the_opponent_off_of_his_hand_with_Liliana_and_then_kill_him.dek. The thing is you don't have to win with the combo, you can also win by ultimating Tezz. That way the combo serves more as a quick way to win out of nowhere instead of going all in on it. Kinda how Thopter/Sword worked in the early Legacy Tezz decks. But then again there is a very high chance of the idea flat out sucking
Hmm I guess that's true. This is not intended as a kill the opponent turn 4 kinda deck though. This is more intended as a chill_behind_the_bridge_and_strip_the_opponent_off_of_his_hand_with_Liliana_and_then_kill_him.dek. The thing is you don't have to win with the combo, you can also win by ultimating Tezz. That way the combo serves more as a quick way to win out of nowhere instead of going all in on it. Kinda how Thopter/Sword worked in the early Legacy Tezz decks. But then again there is a very high chance of the idea flat out sucking
i never said you were going for a straight combo list as those would be inferior imo, my list draws a lot of inspiration from thopters/depth from old extended. and i agree that you want to play a more grind out game with control lol, just wish i could fit in lily and lingering souls
I think abrupt decay would indeed be a problem. The deck isn't without answers to it or ways to play around it; muddles, academy ruins, tolaria wests, 8x tutors, pact of negations, maybe remands (well...), maybe leaks or negate. But Jund is also a deck where you can't afford to delay forever either. Against control mirrors, this combo seems like a real winner because of his resilient and hard to disrupt it is, especially off the vial build that can go off at instant speed. I'd love to see the results of peoples playtesting
I think abrupt decay would indeed be a problem. The deck isn't without answers to it or ways to play around it; muddles, academy ruins, tolaria wests, 8x tutors, pact of negations, maybe remands (well...), maybe leaks or negate. But Jund is also a deck where you can't afford to delay forever either. Against control mirrors, this combo seems like a real winner because of his resilient and hard to disrupt it is, especially off the vial build that can go off at instant speed. I'd love to see the results of peoples playtesting
well yes decay is a issue but thats why i play discard so i either make them for it or it gets discarded, and speaking of flash i wanted to put in Alchemist's Refuge i think ill drop a tar pit for it since i still like the idea of living the dream of tapping out for the mage and playing a ghost quarter for the kill but i have loam and such so i guess dropping it would be better since the pit can actually produce colored mana. and im thinking of dropping eternal witness and maybe one inquisition of kozilek for 2 little lily
I thought about abrupt decay too. Thats why my lists im advocating spellskite, academy ruins, buried ruin, aether vial on 2 for spellskite and guildmage...since they cant abrupt decay the guildmage.if they do you win
Perhaps I should explain some of my card choices
Thirst for Knowledge is Thirst for Knowledge
Thought Scour is a 1 mana combo kill to put something into opponent's graveyard. cantrips.
Myr superion is just a placeholder for something that can close the game fast if it stalls. It comes out via tezz 2nd ability or vial(2)
U guys also realised so many vials for so little creatures. Surplus vials can be discard to thirst for knowledge or opposing liliana of the veil. U only need 1 in play anyway
Pithing needle for opposing planeswalker, deathrite shaman and other stuffs.
Trinisphere stop tons of stuffs. Imagine your opponent's face when he have to pay 3 for his cascade?
Academy ruins/buried ruin + crucible of worlds + ghost quarter for a semi hard lock and to stall.
Ratchet bomb comes in via tezz for empty the warren tokens and lingering souls token. Cost 0 to crack unlike engineered explosives which cost 2 to crack.
Vendilion Clique is an absolutely fantastic card and deserves to see play here because it can do so much such as (1) protect the combo from counters, removal, etc., (2) cycle out a card from your hand, (3) serve as an alternate win-con, (4) answer Planeswalkers better than traditional creatures due to flash & flying, (5) serve as an alternate win-con, (6) block & kill an attacker. For Vial lists, it's even better. Clique should definitely be at least a 2-of. Confidant could probably find a spot in the deck as well, as drawing cards is always fantastic.
You definitely want Muddle the Mixture since it can get either combo piece, and vial would then sound better because it helps relieve your mana (and Muddle the Mixture is mana-intensive when you're transmuting).
Here's an idea: Get a transformational sideboard! Side out all the combo pieces G2 and side into a different deck. Imagine the look on their faces when they cast Slaughter Games and find nothing!
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Remember that creeping tar pit has the same mana cost as using this guys second ability to go off, so tar pit is only useful in this deck as a backup plan / alternate win condition, its better to just play a dual otherwise. Now if you want a backup that bad, yeah it makes sense
With people suggesting aether vial I was also gonna try at a transformational sideboard into a more aggressive deck for game 2. I'm also going to try and keep it a dedicated combo deck because I believe it has potential although I don't doubt its power as a finisher in a control shell.
i just ran some goldfish with my rough build and found that it goldfishes 4-5 turn average and 5-6 turns with spellskite backup. im guessing it will become 3-4 turn once opponents start cracking their own fetchland and die response to vial guildmage ability1
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i just ran some goldfish with my rough build and found that it goldfishes 4-5 turn average and 5-6 turns with spellskite backup. im guessing it will become 3-4 turn once opponents start cracking their own fetchland and die response to vial guildmage ability1
As a little sidenote, you can't respond to their fetchland with vialing in a guildmage. Well, you can, but not as profitably as you think because sacrificing their fetchland is a cost and will therefore put itself into a graveyard before you can do anything.
Moving on, awesome work on testing. To you and to everyone else doing work on the combo so far.
@headley yeah thanks for pointing out. save me the blushes when i play a RL match with this deck
@sabre my other duskmantle guildmage list ran a more spell build rather than an artifact heavy build, using bob, tiago, trinket mage, eternal witness and duskmantle guildmage with a human subtheme.
once you play with tiago you can only play with counters, cantrips and tutors. you cant play full 4x thirst for knowledge without running more artifacts. then i found myself with a list that is neither eternal command nor delver. lol
@contraego i would think slaughter pact is more utility. they cant play non permanent spells anyway with the combo in play. if they do they lose.
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This seems more like a pet deck than a serious deck. Itll see the same sucess as the merrow,mantle,maniac combo. Easily disrupted, t4 at the earliest, terrible cards in their own rights. Any deck beaten by this would be beaten easier by a better combo.
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if you want the loam to be for of a focus you should use some dark blast and snapcaster mage and as an idea the snares may want to be spell pierce
Just sayin'.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
Good point, maybe an full on Esper build would work with Sun titan as an alt win.
Extirpate is better if you're playing enough black to support it, which you are.
I like where the deck building is going, though I'm still a bit flaky on whether I like the deck. I will at least say that I think it has potential. To be fair, Mindcrank won't see much removal, since artifact removal is a SB thing, and most decks only play a couple of them. The other thing, is that the creature resolving when you go off (if you can get that much mana) is immune to removal, since we can't stop it by killing it, since triggers go on the stack and still resolve.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
basically the nut draw i had in mind was:
turn 1: land, vial
turn 2: land, vial(1), mindcrank
turn 3: land, vial(2), vial in duskmantle guildmage, slaughter pact opponent's creature and win that turn. OR vial in duskmantle guildmage at the end opponent's turn 3 and activate ability in reponse to their removal spell and win.
actually this combo is quite resilient. correct me if im wrong. once you stick a guildmage and a mindcrank with 1UB open, they cant kill your guildmage cause we can activate in response and then the ability goes onto the stack before the removal spell resolves.
ok the ability resolve. then the removal spell resolve, putting the removal spell and the guildmage into the graveyard and goes off.
4 Duskmantle Guildmage
3 Myr Superion
4 spellskite
Instants:
4 Slaughter Pact
4 Thought Scour
4 thirst for knowledge
Artifacts
3 Mindcrank
4 Aether Vial
1 Trinisphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
4 Tezzeret the Seeker
Lands
2 Watery Grave
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Buried Ruin
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Darkslick shores
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Academy Ruins
yes you can activate the guildmage in response to them casting a card then they'll start the loop and lose, the only things i would use as enablers would be ghost quarter and if you really need something theres gut shot the myr seems really bad since you can only get it off of a vial and even then I don't like vial because you play too few creatures for it to be worthwhile in my opinion.
Something a long these lines:
4 Duskmantle Guildmage
3 Trinket Mage
Planeswalkers (7)
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Liliana of the Veil
Other stuff (24)
3 Mindcrank
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Blood Moon
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Talisman of Dominance
2 Dimir Signet
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Executioner's Capsule
22 stuff
You have two of the best control cards right now I reckon: Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge and then you have a Trinket Mage package to further lock down the game.
my only problem with playing those cards is you have no real way to protect them and i fear for abrupt decay.
Hmm I guess that's true. This is not intended as a kill the opponent turn 4 kinda deck though. This is more intended as a chill_behind_the_bridge_and_strip_the_opponent_off_of_his_hand_with_Liliana_and_then_kill_him.dek. The thing is you don't have to win with the combo, you can also win by ultimating Tezz. That way the combo serves more as a quick way to win out of nowhere instead of going all in on it. Kinda how Thopter/Sword worked in the early Legacy Tezz decks. But then again there is a very high chance of the idea flat out sucking
i never said you were going for a straight combo list as those would be inferior imo, my list draws a lot of inspiration from thopters/depth from old extended. and i agree that you want to play a more grind out game with control lol, just wish i could fit in lily and lingering souls
well yes decay is a issue but thats why i play discard so i either make them for it or it gets discarded, and speaking of flash i wanted to put in Alchemist's Refuge i think ill drop a tar pit for it since i still like the idea of living the dream of tapping out for the mage and playing a ghost quarter for the kill but i have loam and such so i guess dropping it would be better since the pit can actually produce colored mana. and im thinking of dropping eternal witness and maybe one inquisition of kozilek for 2 little lily
Perhaps I should explain some of my card choices
Thirst for Knowledge is Thirst for Knowledge
Thought Scour is a 1 mana combo kill to put something into opponent's graveyard. cantrips.
Myr superion is just a placeholder for something that can close the game fast if it stalls. It comes out via tezz 2nd ability or vial(2)
U guys also realised so many vials for so little creatures. Surplus vials can be discard to thirst for knowledge or opposing liliana of the veil. U only need 1 in play anyway
Pithing needle for opposing planeswalker, deathrite shaman and other stuffs.
Trinisphere stop tons of stuffs. Imagine your opponent's face when he have to pay 3 for his cascade?
Academy ruins/buried ruin + crucible of worlds + ghost quarter for a semi hard lock and to stall.
Ratchet bomb comes in via tezz for empty the warren tokens and lingering souls token. Cost 0 to crack unlike engineered explosives which cost 2 to crack.
You definitely want Muddle the Mixture since it can get either combo piece, and vial would then sound better because it helps relieve your mana (and Muddle the Mixture is mana-intensive when you're transmuting).
Here's an idea: Get a transformational sideboard! Side out all the combo pieces G2 and side into a different deck. Imagine the look on their faces when they cast Slaughter Games and find nothing!
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
As a little sidenote, you can't respond to their fetchland with vialing in a guildmage. Well, you can, but not as profitably as you think because sacrificing their fetchland is a cost and will therefore put itself into a graveyard before you can do anything.
Moving on, awesome work on testing. To you and to everyone else doing work on the combo so far.
I was thinking the same thing. Gut Shot seems like a natural fit here.
What about something like this:
4 Duskmantle Guildmage
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Other Stuff (32)
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mindcrank
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
20 Stuff
I really like Liliana in the list as she enables the combo for free (if the opponent either has cards in his hand or a creature on the table).
@sabre my other duskmantle guildmage list ran a more spell build rather than an artifact heavy build, using bob, tiago, trinket mage, eternal witness and duskmantle guildmage with a human subtheme.
once you play with tiago you can only play with counters, cantrips and tutors. you cant play full 4x thirst for knowledge without running more artifacts. then i found myself with a list that is neither eternal command nor delver. lol
@contraego i would think slaughter pact is more utility. they cant play non permanent spells anyway with the combo in play. if they do they lose.