I've been holding these for forever and think they'd make great control finishers. The only problem is that they suffer from: perfect for t2, but a bit too much mana for an eternal format.
I'm just looking for some thoughts or opinions.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
Armageddon is used in aggro decks, not control decks. Unfortunately, if you want blowing up their lands to be a haymaker then you need control of the board already, and if you have the board controlled already you are already winning.
"board controlled already you are already winning."
I would like to intoduce you to celestial collonade, raging ravine, treetop village, and creeping tar pit. Those are all powerhouses right?
Lucky for us neither is really armageddon, because there are outs to armagededdon. The top decks are shut off with plow under and Meloku leaves a 1 turn clock on the board.
I wan't looking for alternative control finishers. Even if I was, you suggested 3 in another color? thanks?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
"board controlled already you are already winning."
I would like to intoduce you to celestial collonade, raging ravine, treetop village, and creeping tar pit. Those are all powerhouses right?
Lucky for us neither is really armageddon, because there are outs to armagededdon. The top decks are shut off with plow under and Meloku leaves a 1 turn clock on the board.
I wan't looking for alternative control finishers. Even if I was, you suggested 3 in another color? thanks?
Honestly, what he's suggesting is flat-out better because white is a better control color. If you're playing control, you want to be sweeping creatures, not sweeping lands. White's the best sweeper color. White also has the best catch-all spot removal in Path and blue-white gives you access to the stupidly powerful Gifts-Rites package. The man-lands are good, but they're not exactly powerhouses in Modern, and neither is land destruction. If you're going to try playing control in Modern, I'd stick to UW or UWR. The latter would be better because burn spells and Hellkite are tech.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself." - William Blake
Blue really doesnt have any control finishers in this format. It was intended that we use white or black for most of our finishers. Blue with a finisher would be too strong.
The closest thing you have to a blue finisher is Gifts Ungiven, which usually only combos into a white finisher.
I don't know about that, ML. I think we have some things that could be blue finishers. Something like Aeon Chronicler is abstractly powerful enough.
The main problem with a lot of the blue finishers is that they are meant to really come into play a turn or two after Tron is dropping Emrakul.
When Emrakul is a possibility on the other side of the table, we really do have to resort to using the slightly faster options from other colors.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I don't know about that, ML. I think we have some things that could be blue finishers. Something like Aeon Chronicler is abstractly powerful enough.
The main problem with a lot of the blue finishers is that they are meant to really come into play a turn or two after Tron is dropping Emrakul.
When Emrakul is a possibility on the other side of the table, we really do have to resort to using the slightly faster options from other colors.
Aeon CHronicler is no where close to a finisher. Jwar Sphinx is better than that and hes useless too. Blue's finisher was JTMS and thats been banned. Nothing printed thus far can replace it.
I stand by my original statement that blue is not intended to have a finisher of its own.
Batterskull is probably the best and most versatile way to win a long game in the format. It's extremely easy to cast, it laughs at removal spells, and it's extremely good at stabilizing a board of creatures that would attack around other fatties. Wurmcoil Engine has a lot of the same positive attributes but is soft to Path to Exile. I would personally run 2 Batterskulls as finishers in a base blue control deck right now.
If you're worried about Tron dropping Emrakul and you think it's likely to happen in 30%+ of your matches, don't play blue based control.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
I think that Lone Revenant is a pretty decent finisher. I find that shroud/hexproof/some kind of recursion is almost indispensable in a deck that depends upon a finisher, because people are going to have all their removal in their hands as you didn't play creatures earlier (in practice you can't wait until you can counter 2 path to exile to play your finisher)
Lone Revenant provides a body that is quite strong even though he can not attack easily through tarmogoyf or loxodon smiter, but once he connects his triggered ability ensures you will be the one controlling the rest of the game
"Finishers" in the traditional sense, are creatures or spells that once they hit the board, create an unwinnable board position for your opponent.
In standard, "finishers" are traditionally relevant since you can usually just wrath away until you can drop something such as Grave Titan, then just win off the back of it's power.
In formats where tempo & combo decks exist, playing a big finisher just isn't practical unless it can almost 100% win you the game against your opponent upon resolution (regardless of matchup). The only playable card that has an effect like that in this format is Cruel Ultimatum, but even cruel is very expensive and mana hungry.
Meloku the Clouded Mirror + Thoughts of Ruin
Snapcaster mage + Plow under
I've been holding these for forever and think they'd make great control finishers. The only problem is that they suffer from: perfect for t2, but a bit too much mana for an eternal format.
I'm just looking for some thoughts or opinions.
"board controlled already you are already winning."
I would like to intoduce you to celestial collonade, raging ravine, treetop village, and creeping tar pit. Those are all powerhouses right?
Lucky for us neither is really armageddon, because there are outs to armagededdon. The top decks are shut off with plow under and Meloku leaves a 1 turn clock on the board.
I wan't looking for alternative control finishers. Even if I was, you suggested 3 in another color? thanks?
Honestly, what he's suggesting is flat-out better because white is a better control color. If you're playing control, you want to be sweeping creatures, not sweeping lands. White's the best sweeper color. White also has the best catch-all spot removal in Path and blue-white gives you access to the stupidly powerful Gifts-Rites package. The man-lands are good, but they're not exactly powerhouses in Modern, and neither is land destruction. If you're going to try playing control in Modern, I'd stick to UW or UWR. The latter would be better because burn spells and Hellkite are tech.
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
-Niv-Mizzet
The closest thing you have to a blue finisher is Gifts Ungiven, which usually only combos into a white finisher.
The main problem with a lot of the blue finishers is that they are meant to really come into play a turn or two after Tron is dropping Emrakul.
When Emrakul is a possibility on the other side of the table, we really do have to resort to using the slightly faster options from other colors.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
Aeon CHronicler is no where close to a finisher. Jwar Sphinx is better than that and hes useless too. Blue's finisher was JTMS and thats been banned. Nothing printed thus far can replace it.
I stand by my original statement that blue is not intended to have a finisher of its own.
If you're worried about Tron dropping Emrakul and you think it's likely to happen in 30%+ of your matches, don't play blue based control.
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Lone Revenant provides a body that is quite strong even though he can not attack easily through tarmogoyf or loxodon smiter, but once he connects his triggered ability ensures you will be the one controlling the rest of the game
In standard, "finishers" are traditionally relevant since you can usually just wrath away until you can drop something such as Grave Titan, then just win off the back of it's power.
In formats where tempo & combo decks exist, playing a big finisher just isn't practical unless it can almost 100% win you the game against your opponent upon resolution (regardless of matchup). The only playable card that has an effect like that in this format is Cruel Ultimatum, but even cruel is very expensive and mana hungry.