What is bad for Modern is the ban list. The format becomes unhealthy when you are constantly destroying the meta over and over. How is BBE worth banning? Jitte? Bitterblosom? Ancestral Visions? Wild Nacatl (this one is so funny)? From the list the only 2 cards I consider probably too much OP are Mental Misstep and Jace. The rest of the cards are very fun cards that enable amazing decks.
I don't like being told what is fun and what is "broken". Give us new tools to fight the meta instead of destroying it.
My 2 cents
You are free to your opinion, but just know there are people who disagree with your opinion. What would you tell those people when your opinion is followed and those feel the format is bad because of the change to your opinion? Just because you would like the format a certain way, doesnt mean everyone does.
All formats have ban lists that shape the format, if I was you, I would find a format that I agree with the bans and play that format.
I guess an argument could be made that its very difficult with 15 cards to consistently be able to deal with every combo out there and because of that combo becomes kind of problematic. I mean yard hate takes out a lot of them but not all of them (wrecks eggs and severely cripples pod). Blood moon wrecks tron and other color intensive mana bases but does nothing for Scapeshift. I mean you can counter that or you can use targeted discard, but that's only in blue and black.
I guess in any kinda of competition there are bad match ups. I just wish that was based on skill rather than the content of your deck.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I guess an argument could be made that its very difficult with 15 cards to consistently be able to deal with every combo out there and because of that combo becomes kind of problematic. I mean yard hate takes out a lot of them but not all of them (wrecks eggs and severely cripples pod). Blood moon wrecks tron and other color intensive mana bases but does nothing for Scapeshift. I mean you can counter that or you can use targeted discard, but that's only in blue and black.
I guess in any kinda of competition there are bad match ups. I just wish that was based on skill rather than the content of your deck.
Part of the skill of high level pilots is being able to predict what will be heavily played at the tournament they are attending and build/tweak their deck of choice to have the best match ups possible.
That being said, Magic is a game of luck as much as skill. Match ups determine the winner of any given event probably just as much as game play.
I guess an argument could be made that its very difficult with 15 cards to consistently be able to deal with every combo out there and because of that combo becomes kind of problematic. I mean yard hate takes out a lot of them but not all of them (wrecks eggs and severely cripples pod). Blood moon wrecks tron and other color intensive mana bases but does nothing for Scapeshift. I mean you can counter that or you can use targeted discard, but that's only in blue and black.
I guess in any kinda of competition there are bad match ups. I just wish that was based on skill rather than the content of your deck.
Remember that the vast, vast majority of combo in Modern right now is also dealt with by cards in your maindeck. As I mentioned in previous posts, these are cards that you would be playing anyway even if combo didn't exist (stuff like Path to Exile, Thoughtseize, and Mana Leak).
As to your sideboard, the skill is in choosing the sideboard cards before even arriving at the table. You want to pick cards that are relevant in the widest possible range of matchups (or specifically targeting those matchups which are your worst). Even Blood Moon, the example you gave, falls squarely into this category: It shuts down Scapeshift just as much as it shuts down Tron and those other 4-5 color strategies. Stony Silence is another example, with versatile application against Pod, Eggs, and Affinity.
Finally, regarding "skill" and "bad matchups", that is a problem which exists independently of combo. Indeed, that is just a fact inherent to the game of Magic itself. If I was playing a glass cannon combo deck and ran into some UWR control deck in my first game of the day, I could just as easily moan about skilless, bad matchups as if I had ran aggro against a dedicated combo deck. Through deck tuning and card selection, we improve our matchups and minimize luck.
What is bad for Modern is the ban list. The format becomes unhealthy when you are constantly destroying the meta over and over. How is BBE worth banning? Jitte? Bitterblosom? Ancestral Visions? Wild Nacatl (this one is so funny)? From the list the only 2 cards I consider probably too much OP are Mental Misstep and Jace. The rest of the cards are very fun cards that enable amazing decks.
I don't like being told what is fun and what is "broken". Give us new tools to fight the meta instead of destroying it.
My 2 cents
Jitte not overpowered? you did not play back when it was in standard did you.
Same goes for Bitterblossom, The artifact Lands, grave-Troll, etc.
You need to look at more then just the card, but also look at what the card interacts with. Half of that list is not banned because of the card itself, but because of how they interact with other cards.
They do enable a lot of fun decks, but unfortunatly they also enable some truely broken format destroying decks.
Maybe that is combo's place in the format then: creating bad match ups. Personally, my favorite kinds of decks would be classified as midrange/control. You know the decks that seem to have natural answers to almost everything (BUG and Jund come to mind.)
I've used the boogie man metaphor describing Dredge in legacy before but maybe that is the place of all combo decks?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
While Jitte and BB are very strong cards and were very devastating in Standard, they wouldn't be that potent in Modern. The last packs were full of very strong anti artifact and anti enchantment cards and equipment was never as bad as in the current environment. Getting your Jitte destroyed by Abrupt Decay in responce of equiping it gives you a disadvantage of 2 mana, which is devastating in a fast metagame.
Many people tested Grave-Troll and I haven't seen a deck that looked like a contender to tier 1. Without Dread Return, Golgari Gravetroll isn't as opressive as you probably would think.
Artifact lands on the other hand could be very devastating in the current environment (at least my opinion).
The problem is that he said he only see problems in 2 cards, MM and JTMS, and in that case Dread Return would be legal to combo in dredge with Narcomoebas, SFM would be there with Jitte... you cant just unban all.
And the best, he doesnt even care about Skullclamp...
Unbanning Jitte would be a mistake. Modern is a creature-based midrange, attrition war format right now; why on Earth would you want to see those decks running 2-4x Jitte among their 75? What does it add to the format?
I realize it's off topic, but since the conversation has drifted this direction-
Blazing Shoal: Makes for a first turn kill with Infect
Chrome Mox: Speeds up decks by a turn and ditching dead cards. Could be, definitely fine staying on the ban list though.
Cloudpost: Explosive and dangerous
Dark Depths: Turn 2 nastiness
Dread Return: Dredge would dominate quite hard
Glimpse of Nature: Hahaha... No.
Hypergenesis: Yikes.
Seething Song: I don't understand why this was banned in the first place.
Sensei's Divining Top: Only reason this was banned in the first place imo was time constaint in games.
Stoneforge Mystic: Bad idea to unban.
Skullclamp: Why they even printed this card....
Sword of the Meek: I think this can be handled.
Yeah... I guess I only see a small handful of cards being safe to unban in regards to combo decks nowadays. 2 that are MAYBE safe to unban? Haha, meep.
Edit: In regards to Seething Song, yes I understand that it was banned due to the % of turn 3 kills, but I don't feel it was necessary.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Wizard's vision of Modern is not "baby legacy", "super standard" or old extended. I believe they're trying to make an incredibly diverse format in which there are enough unique competitive archetypes such that any person with a small budget can pick up a deck for 100-200 dollars, go to an event and have a chance to top 8 or top 16. For these reasons there are certain cards that need to be banned...
For one, if we unban certain cards like jitte all decks need to pack mandatory artifact hate. When that happens we lose slots in SB to hate out other cards and other decks. Those decks become oppressive and the format shrinks...there are fewer competitive archetypes and the format becomes more insular. Similarly, unbanning JTMS we end up having to play decks that have ready answers to him. All decks that cannot, are unplayable and so forth.
Legacy will always be different in that it has check cards like force of will. And many combo decks rely on GY combo which can be hated out with just one card...Modern has many decks vying for the same T4 time slot and as such with too many combo decks, there's no way to pack enough SB hate. (As an aside, jund does well since it has all the hate under the sun)
Modern will be different in that it has "man made" restrictions that are designed to keep the format in check.
Regardless, I enjoy combo. I dislike playing aggro unless it's "clever" aggro like plan B for pod. I understand that sometimes combo gets out of hand and bannings are necessary. But a format without any combo is quite literally current standard. RB aggro in standard actually has more or less the same power level as many aggro decks in modern.
Given i dislike combo... its more "oops i lost" given you didnt build a deck with the right answers. Its is needed in the meta for healthy deck building. But i woukd be embarresed to be the combo player.
This thread has drifted too far off course. We have a thread for Ban List Discussion.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
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You are free to your opinion, but just know there are people who disagree with your opinion. What would you tell those people when your opinion is followed and those feel the format is bad because of the change to your opinion? Just because you would like the format a certain way, doesnt mean everyone does.
All formats have ban lists that shape the format, if I was you, I would find a format that I agree with the bans and play that format.
I guess in any kinda of competition there are bad match ups. I just wish that was based on skill rather than the content of your deck.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Part of the skill of high level pilots is being able to predict what will be heavily played at the tournament they are attending and build/tweak their deck of choice to have the best match ups possible.
That being said, Magic is a game of luck as much as skill. Match ups determine the winner of any given event probably just as much as game play.
Remember that the vast, vast majority of combo in Modern right now is also dealt with by cards in your maindeck. As I mentioned in previous posts, these are cards that you would be playing anyway even if combo didn't exist (stuff like Path to Exile, Thoughtseize, and Mana Leak).
As to your sideboard, the skill is in choosing the sideboard cards before even arriving at the table. You want to pick cards that are relevant in the widest possible range of matchups (or specifically targeting those matchups which are your worst). Even Blood Moon, the example you gave, falls squarely into this category: It shuts down Scapeshift just as much as it shuts down Tron and those other 4-5 color strategies. Stony Silence is another example, with versatile application against Pod, Eggs, and Affinity.
Finally, regarding "skill" and "bad matchups", that is a problem which exists independently of combo. Indeed, that is just a fact inherent to the game of Magic itself. If I was playing a glass cannon combo deck and ran into some UWR control deck in my first game of the day, I could just as easily moan about skilless, bad matchups as if I had ran aggro against a dedicated combo deck. Through deck tuning and card selection, we improve our matchups and minimize luck.
Jitte not overpowered? you did not play back when it was in standard did you.
Same goes for Bitterblossom, The artifact Lands, grave-Troll, etc.
You need to look at more then just the card, but also look at what the card interacts with. Half of that list is not banned because of the card itself, but because of how they interact with other cards.
They do enable a lot of fun decks, but unfortunatly they also enable some truely broken format destroying decks.
I've used the boogie man metaphor describing Dredge in legacy before but maybe that is the place of all combo decks?
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
The problem is that he said he only see problems in 2 cards, MM and JTMS, and in that case Dread Return would be legal to combo in dredge with Narcomoebas, SFM would be there with Jitte... you cant just unban all.
And the best, he doesnt even care about Skullclamp...
Blazing Shoal: Makes for a first turn kill with Infect
Chrome Mox: Speeds up decks by a turn and ditching dead cards. Could be, definitely fine staying on the ban list though.
Cloudpost: Explosive and dangerous
Dark Depths: Turn 2 nastiness
Dread Return: Dredge would dominate quite hard
Glimpse of Nature: Hahaha... No.
Hypergenesis: Yikes.
Seething Song: I don't understand why this was banned in the first place.
Sensei's Divining Top: Only reason this was banned in the first place imo was time constaint in games.
Stoneforge Mystic: Bad idea to unban.
Skullclamp: Why they even printed this card....
Sword of the Meek: I think this can be handled.
Yeah... I guess I only see a small handful of cards being safe to unban in regards to combo decks nowadays. 2 that are MAYBE safe to unban? Haha, meep.
Edit: In regards to Seething Song, yes I understand that it was banned due to the % of turn 3 kills, but I don't feel it was necessary.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Wizard's vision of Modern is not "baby legacy", "super standard" or old extended. I believe they're trying to make an incredibly diverse format in which there are enough unique competitive archetypes such that any person with a small budget can pick up a deck for 100-200 dollars, go to an event and have a chance to top 8 or top 16. For these reasons there are certain cards that need to be banned...
For one, if we unban certain cards like jitte all decks need to pack mandatory artifact hate. When that happens we lose slots in SB to hate out other cards and other decks. Those decks become oppressive and the format shrinks...there are fewer competitive archetypes and the format becomes more insular. Similarly, unbanning JTMS we end up having to play decks that have ready answers to him. All decks that cannot, are unplayable and so forth.
Legacy will always be different in that it has check cards like force of will. And many combo decks rely on GY combo which can be hated out with just one card...Modern has many decks vying for the same T4 time slot and as such with too many combo decks, there's no way to pack enough SB hate. (As an aside, jund does well since it has all the hate under the sun)
Modern will be different in that it has "man made" restrictions that are designed to keep the format in check.
Regardless, I enjoy combo. I dislike playing aggro unless it's "clever" aggro like plan B for pod. I understand that sometimes combo gets out of hand and bannings are necessary. But a format without any combo is quite literally current standard. RB aggro in standard actually has more or less the same power level as many aggro decks in modern.
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
Closed