Right. Tested Zhur-Taa Druid in different types of Zoo. And the report is... Why did I even test this? Why could I think this was any better then Deathrite? Ever.
What do you guys think about Debt to the Deathless? probably in some kind of esper Tron build... i mean the card basically says "pay 14, if this spell resolves you win the game" (probably a bit less, lets say 12 or so because of fetches and shocks...)
only problem is you need to pay WWBB (which is quite difficult for Tron I guess)
I can't see this replacing Emrakul, which is (usually) 13 mana, ALL colorless, still is BASICALLY "you win the game," and is uncounterable. Any minor advantage of Debt to the Deathless is easily erased by the WWBB
Wear//Tear replaces Disenchant in sideboards of UWR lists. It's still a one of.
It's probably the only card that makes an actual impact, and it does make an actual impact. It means that you have to have very good reasons for including both artifacts and enchantments in your deck after sideboarding. This means, for example, that Spellskite is an especially bad card in your Bogle deck. It means that Twin can't use Spellskite nearly as effectively for protection. It means Affinity wants to avoid siding in Blood Moon against UWR. This card wont influence games as much as it will influence deckbuilding- people will switch to it from Disenchant and never ever Fuse it.
Of course, Disenchant should never have been in those decks anyways. Hide//Seek is actually the right removal spell for this slot (or Deglamer in green). Shuffling away Wurmcoil Engine is a much more relevant effect than fusing to kill both an enchantment and an artifact.
Nothing else makes an actual impact. Beck // Call is interesting, but elves is likely destined to be a flash in the pan unless they fix their vulnerability to any sort of disruption, their reliance on Heritage Druid, and their reliance on and inability to run many of an engine card (you can't have too many blanks when going off). It's a card that means that in the short term, Elves gets played, Pyroclasms go up in value, and decks that can't provide a suitable clock (eg. Tron) suffer. This is likely going to revert back to normal soon after. Beck//Call has more potential in legacy, where people may want ~6 Beck effects in a deck.
Unflinching Courage is the next card with a fringe chance of being relevant, but it's too expensive for the Boggle deck.
Varolz is cute, but you need to make Death's Shadow a playable card in your deck to make it viable and too many decks win by damage for a GB suicide deck to be a good option. People will try it anyways, but it wont be in one of the more competitive decks.
Blood Scrivener doesn't work with Dark Confidant, so it can't serve as number 5-8, and any deck that wants a smaller number would rather have the Confidant. I guess there's a chance if you want Gravecrawler in your deck, but I think you want different two drops if that's the case. Namely, you probably are looking for Bloodghast and Lotleth Troll in those decks.
Skylasher and Voice of Resurgence both have the same problem. They're pretty bad as maindeck cards against the field. A 2/2 for 2 just isn't a relevant body. If your opponent does certain things, you gain value. You can make these sideboard cards so that happens, but they're both very narrow as sideboard cards. There are better options.
Breaking/Entering is cute, but the lists I've seen are less consistent and less powerful than decks trying to do similar things- Living End and Goryo's Vengeance.dek. The decks I've seen mostly try and "win" on turn four and don't really do anything until then. That's just not the place you want to be in any format.
Uncovered Clues, Gaze of Granite, and the protection 5 drops shouldn't even warrant discussion, but were somehow mentioned. The first is worse than Divination unless you run well above expectation (Compulsive Research and Thirst for Knowledge are better cards that are actual options). Gaze of Granite costs infinity mana- you should either just win the game or use Enginereed Explosives. The protection guys are both too slow and too narrow.
Varolz is cute, but you need to make Death's Shadow a playable card in your deck to make it viable and too many decks win by damage for a GB suicide deck to be a good option. People will try it anyways, but it wont be in one of the more competitive decks.
You could try and use Shadow with him, but I want to try and run him in Jund. Being able to scavenge dead Goyfs onto manlands like Raging Ravine and Treetop Village seems like it would be extra value, though I'm probably wrong. I just like the idea of having a 7/7 trampling ape only vulnerable to some instant speed removal.
Nothing else makes an actual impact. Beck // Call is interesting, but elves is likely destined to be a flash in the pan unless they fix their vulnerability to any sort of disruption, their reliance on Heritage Druid, and their reliance on and inability to run many of an engine card (you can't have too many blanks when going off). It's a card that means that in the short term, Elves gets played, Pyroclasms go up in value, and decks that can't provide a suitable clock (eg. Tron) suffer. This is likely going to revert back to normal soon after. Beck//Call has more potential in legacy, where people may want ~6 Beck effects in a deck.
Unflinching Courage is the next card with a fringe chance of being relevant, but it's too expensive for the Boggle deck.
Elves is a deck I think you might be underestimating. It's easy to forget that the deck doesn't need to combo out fully to win; it's actually a halfway decent aggro deck on its own merit.
As for Unflinching Courage, what about Bogle's bigger, midrange, (currently) less successful brother Troll Worship?
You could try and use Shadow with him, but I want to try and run him in Jund. Being able to scavenge dead Goyfs onto manlands like Raging Ravine and Treetop Village seems like it would be extra value, though I'm probably wrong. I just like the idea of having a 7/7 trampling ape only vulnerable to some instant speed removal.
Scavenging onto manlands is hard. It costs four to activate Raging Ravine, three to play Varolz, and two to scavenge Tarmogoyf, and one because you can't use Raging Ravine to pay for any of this. If you could play Varolz on a different turn, then you still have some issues against instant speed removal. Jund has a low creature density, and an even lower density of creatures that scavenge well. Varolz isn't good if you can't sack something to regenerate him when you need to, and he's not good when you don't have things in the graveyard.
Elves is a deck I think you might be underestimating. It's easy to forget that the deck doesn't need to combo out fully to win; it's actually a halfway decent aggro deck on its own merit.
As for Unflinching Courage, what about Bogle's bigger, midrange, (currently) less successful brother Troll Worship?
I don't think I'm underestimating elves. Every other piece has been available, and for whatever reason- and it's not a lack of trying- elves has not managed to make a mark on modern. The issue with being an aggro deck is that it's generally outclassed by the other aggro decks, and that it can't run Forbidden Orchard if it wants to be a good aggro deck.
I guess that's an option? I wouldn't be playing Troll Ascetic in those decks in the first place. It also seems like a worse Rancor in a lot of places (basically whenever lifegain isn't particularly relevant), and every build I've seen isn't running that card. I don't think those decks are particularly good, and I don't think they're better enough as a result of this.
this. i play urw and disenchant is always a 2x in my SB due to Blood moon, spellskite, affinity, pod, and stuff. Wear // tear will replace it this sunday when i'll play at a GPT.
Because hide puts it on the bottom, wear // tear destroys it.
And if i'd have to splash black for seek, i'd be better using surgical extraction
Bottom-tucking is generally significantly better than destroying, as Academy Ruins gets destroyed artifacts back and Wurmcoil Engine doesn't mind being destroyed too much. Bottom-tucking Wurmcoil against RG Tron instead of exiling it can be dangerous because Eye of Ugin can keep churning out Wurmcoils, and bottom-tucking bullet fatties isn't that hot against Mono-U Tron because fresh Treasure Mages can get them back, but Mono-U Tron runs 1 Academy Ruins and 4 Expedition Maps vs. 4 or fewer Treasure Mages, so the odds are on your side for tucking bullet fatties.
The biggest edges Wear // Tear has over Hide // Seek are the easier mana costs and not getting hosed by Spellskite when targeting enchantments. If I'm more worried about Wurmcoil than Spellskite, I'd rather play Hide // Seek.
The first is Voice of Resurgence. I think people are undervaluing how good he is with clone effects, and there's the potential for a aggro-ish Bant deck built around 4 Voice of Resurgences and then as many Phantasmal Images and Phyrexian Metamorphs as it can fit in while still finding room for removal and enough other sweet creatures to clone.
Path voice in response to an image. /game
Tot to mention that in modern it is a 2/2 most of the time. Jund doesnt care, junk doesnt care, affinity certainly will not care, as tron wont. Maybe you will annoy a few UWR players for a turn or two, but not much else.
Oh, and counterspells in modern are better than in standard, and cavern here doesnt cut it.
Sorry, but unless you play it in some sort of token shell, i hardly see the elemental as a relevant factor, hes not gonna be any bigger than a 3/3.
Sure, he comes for free so its not bad per se, but nothing game breaking, either.
There are better uses for 2 mana, i think.
Might have been already mentioned in this thread, but Ral Zarek has some pretty significant synergy with Bloom Tender imo. Not only does the elf accelerate Ral out on turn 3 but Ral immediately returns 3/4 of his mana cost and next turn you will have effectively infinite mana if both cards are still in play.
That doesn't make infinite mana. It makes 6 mana, you tap bloom tender, untap it with ral, tap for three more but then thats it. You can't activate ral multiple times unless im missing something here.
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I can't see this replacing Emrakul, which is (usually) 13 mana, ALL colorless, still is BASICALLY "you win the game," and is uncounterable. Any minor advantage of Debt to the Deathless is easily erased by the WWBB
Wear//Tear replaces Disenchant in sideboards of UWR lists. It's still a one of.
It's probably the only card that makes an actual impact, and it does make an actual impact. It means that you have to have very good reasons for including both artifacts and enchantments in your deck after sideboarding. This means, for example, that Spellskite is an especially bad card in your Bogle deck. It means that Twin can't use Spellskite nearly as effectively for protection. It means Affinity wants to avoid siding in Blood Moon against UWR. This card wont influence games as much as it will influence deckbuilding- people will switch to it from Disenchant and never ever Fuse it.
Of course, Disenchant should never have been in those decks anyways. Hide//Seek is actually the right removal spell for this slot (or Deglamer in green). Shuffling away Wurmcoil Engine is a much more relevant effect than fusing to kill both an enchantment and an artifact.
Nothing else makes an actual impact. Beck // Call is interesting, but elves is likely destined to be a flash in the pan unless they fix their vulnerability to any sort of disruption, their reliance on Heritage Druid, and their reliance on and inability to run many of an engine card (you can't have too many blanks when going off). It's a card that means that in the short term, Elves gets played, Pyroclasms go up in value, and decks that can't provide a suitable clock (eg. Tron) suffer. This is likely going to revert back to normal soon after. Beck//Call has more potential in legacy, where people may want ~6 Beck effects in a deck.
Unflinching Courage is the next card with a fringe chance of being relevant, but it's too expensive for the Boggle deck.
Varolz is cute, but you need to make Death's Shadow a playable card in your deck to make it viable and too many decks win by damage for a GB suicide deck to be a good option. People will try it anyways, but it wont be in one of the more competitive decks.
Blood Scrivener doesn't work with Dark Confidant, so it can't serve as number 5-8, and any deck that wants a smaller number would rather have the Confidant. I guess there's a chance if you want Gravecrawler in your deck, but I think you want different two drops if that's the case. Namely, you probably are looking for Bloodghast and Lotleth Troll in those decks.
Skylasher and Voice of Resurgence both have the same problem. They're pretty bad as maindeck cards against the field. A 2/2 for 2 just isn't a relevant body. If your opponent does certain things, you gain value. You can make these sideboard cards so that happens, but they're both very narrow as sideboard cards. There are better options.
Breaking/Entering is cute, but the lists I've seen are less consistent and less powerful than decks trying to do similar things- Living End and Goryo's Vengeance.dek. The decks I've seen mostly try and "win" on turn four and don't really do anything until then. That's just not the place you want to be in any format.
Uncovered Clues, Gaze of Granite, and the protection 5 drops shouldn't even warrant discussion, but were somehow mentioned. The first is worse than Divination unless you run well above expectation (Compulsive Research and Thirst for Knowledge are better cards that are actual options). Gaze of Granite costs infinity mana- you should either just win the game or use Enginereed Explosives. The protection guys are both too slow and too narrow.
You could try and use Shadow with him, but I want to try and run him in Jund. Being able to scavenge dead Goyfs onto manlands like Raging Ravine and Treetop Village seems like it would be extra value, though I'm probably wrong. I just like the idea of having a 7/7 trampling ape only vulnerable to some instant speed removal.
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Elves is a deck I think you might be underestimating. It's easy to forget that the deck doesn't need to combo out fully to win; it's actually a halfway decent aggro deck on its own merit.
As for Unflinching Courage, what about Bogle's bigger, midrange, (currently) less successful brother Troll Worship?
CG
Scavenging onto manlands is hard. It costs four to activate Raging Ravine, three to play Varolz, and two to scavenge Tarmogoyf, and one because you can't use Raging Ravine to pay for any of this. If you could play Varolz on a different turn, then you still have some issues against instant speed removal. Jund has a low creature density, and an even lower density of creatures that scavenge well. Varolz isn't good if you can't sack something to regenerate him when you need to, and he's not good when you don't have things in the graveyard.
I don't think I'm underestimating elves. Every other piece has been available, and for whatever reason- and it's not a lack of trying- elves has not managed to make a mark on modern. The issue with being an aggro deck is that it's generally outclassed by the other aggro decks, and that it can't run Forbidden Orchard if it wants to be a good aggro deck.
I guess that's an option? I wouldn't be playing Troll Ascetic in those decks in the first place. It also seems like a worse Rancor in a lot of places (basically whenever lifegain isn't particularly relevant), and every build I've seen isn't running that card. I don't think those decks are particularly good, and I don't think they're better enough as a result of this.
Why is it not just Hide//Seek?
What? Are you trolling? Of course it wont.
its like a bad threads of disloyalty. and even then, its not terrible.
hide and seek has a completely different purpose from wear and tear.
Bottom-tucking is generally significantly better than destroying, as Academy Ruins gets destroyed artifacts back and Wurmcoil Engine doesn't mind being destroyed too much. Bottom-tucking Wurmcoil against RG Tron instead of exiling it can be dangerous because Eye of Ugin can keep churning out Wurmcoils, and bottom-tucking bullet fatties isn't that hot against Mono-U Tron because fresh Treasure Mages can get them back, but Mono-U Tron runs 1 Academy Ruins and 4 Expedition Maps vs. 4 or fewer Treasure Mages, so the odds are on your side for tucking bullet fatties.
The biggest edges Wear // Tear has over Hide // Seek are the easier mana costs and not getting hosed by Spellskite when targeting enchantments. If I'm more worried about Wurmcoil than Spellskite, I'd rather play Hide // Seek.
Path voice in response to an image. /game
Tot to mention that in modern it is a 2/2 most of the time. Jund doesnt care, junk doesnt care, affinity certainly will not care, as tron wont. Maybe you will annoy a few UWR players for a turn or two, but not much else.
Oh, and counterspells in modern are better than in standard, and cavern here doesnt cut it.
Not game, they gain value of two creatures with X/X = the number of creatures on the field.
Read the card.
I must be missing something, Voice's token only triggers on death, not leaving the battlefield.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Right, I completely forgot about the other method of it making tokens. That is, when your opponent casts spells on your turn. My bad. Carry on thread.
It also triggers when you play a spell during their turn.
Sure, he comes for free so its not bad per se, but nothing game breaking, either.
There are better uses for 2 mana, i think.
That doesn't make infinite mana. It makes 6 mana, you tap bloom tender, untap it with ral, tap for three more but then thats it. You can't activate ral multiple times unless im missing something here.