Does the fact that Glimpse the Future is a Sorcery just kill it's playability in Modern?
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
So I did some testing with Rhinne regarding Young Pyromancer, and from initial testing, it definitely seems to be very powerful. I'm really at a loss for why they made in uncommon.
We played 4 games testing. The 2 games I had pyromancer in hand on turn 2 I was able to quickly run away with the match. The games where I didn't draw pyromancer were close, but he was able to win. He was playing UWR geist midrange.
What I found
Even if your opponent can find removal for the pyromancer, you can typically get at least 2 tokens off it, setting you pretty far ahead. Spell piercing his Electrolyze after casting pyromancer on turn 3 was a really powerful play, as it gave me a token, prevented his draw, and allowed me to untap with a remand, lightning bolt, and lightning helix in play. He eventually was able to bolt the pyromancer, but I was able to get 3 more tokens out of it as I bolted and helixed him. At that point in the game, he was was too far behind to win, and I was able to swing for lethal within a turn.
Against strategies like Tron, the pyromancer isn't really going to be much different than something like Geist. It can provide a clock, but if they start casting early wurmcoil engines and Karns, it's not going to be that helpful.
Against creature-based strategies, the tokens are potent chump blockers, and will trade with a lot of cards in the meta. If you have a lightning bolt in hand, you can bolt a Loxodon Smiter and block with the token to kill the smiter.
When I tested Young Pyromancer in Modern (RUG Delver, Badd B-like list), I typically only got 1 token from it before it died to removal (then again, I first tried it out against Jund decks). And this is because I sandbagged a spell in hand that I could cast on the same turn as YP. I was actually forced to play YP for no value somewhat often (because my opponent shredded my hand, because I spent the first few turns dealing with their Deathrite/Bob/etc.).
In particular, the Badd B-like list felt way too dependent on an early YP. If I didn't lead with a threat (Tiago didn't count), I generally fell way too far back for the rest of the game because my counterspell and threat suite weren't good enough. I'm glad Badd B stuck two more creatures in his latest list.
I did try out a Legacy Grixis Delver list with YP on Cockatrice, though, and YP performed much better there. The free counterspells ensured I could tap out for YP without him immediately dying to removal, and the mana denial ensured opponents couldn't stick threats or answers just long enough to win. YP, unlike the other Grixis tempo buddy Tombstalker, also liked Bob.
When I tested Young Pyromancer in Modern (RUG Delver, Badd B-like list), I typically only got 1 token from it before it died to removal (then again, I first tried it out against Jund decks). And this is because I sandbagged a spell in hand that I could cast on the same turn as YP. I was actually forced to play YP for no value somewhat often (because my opponent shredded my hand, because I spent the first few turns dealing with their Deathrite/Bob/etc.).
In particular, the Badd B-like list felt way too dependent on an early YP. If I didn't lead with a threat (Tiago didn't count), I generally fell way too far back for the rest of the game because my counterspell and threat suite weren't good enough. I'm glad Badd B stuck two more creatures in his latest list.
I did try out a Legacy Grixis Delver list with YP on Cockatrice, though, and YP performed much better there. The free counterspells ensured I could tap out for YP without him immediately dying to removal, and the mana denial ensured opponents couldn't stick threats or answers just long enough to win. YP, unlike the other Grixis tempo buddy Tombstalker, also liked Bob.
To be fair, I haven't tested against Jund yet, so it's hard to say if it's just a matchup thing. I definitely think you need to find a "sweet spot" of having enough threats and enough spells to make pyromancer powerful.
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Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
As badd b said, YP was a pain in the ass to deal with. Maybe i should have boarded in verdicts, guess i underestimated what pyromancer could do, but that in itself speaks a lot about the value of the card in UWR tempo.
It is tru that electrolize is the best card agaisnt it, but badd was able to keep me off it long enough to get value out of pyromancer.
It didnt help that i also had to deal with geist at the same time, while avoiding getting burned to 0.
It's hard to imagine me playing a YP list and not wanting a couple Gitaxian Probe.
I think YP has some serious potential in tempo builds but he certainly has to fill a niche. He will probably be more relevant in some sort of storm deck that somebody much smarter than me will brew.
Zero mana to make a 1/1 just seems too good not to see some sort of play, although it won't be initially obvious where. Easily a five dollar uncommon a couple sets down the road.
Tried the Badd B-like list against Ajani Jund instead of my older Spirit Jund list. Young Pyromancer did somewhat better. It's likely because all their planeswalkers are huge Spell Pierce bait. This is when I learned that, unlike every single other tempo fatty, YP is great against Liliana of the Veil.
Then I tried 2 games against Melira Pod. Small sample size, I know, but in those 2 games, YP sucked. They didn't bother removing it and I lived the dream by making 4+ tokens with it regularly, but those tokens can't get through nearly all their men, and they kept accumulating 4+ creatures that were bigger than 1/1's. Having to bust all my Tiagos' removal spells on their summoning sick Deathrites hurt more (I didn't have removal in hand at the time). They comboed off to win both games. Goyf is similarly subpar against Melira Pod, yes, but at least it either forces them to block it or it mows over multiple guys if it dies to blocks.
YP's tokens don't have to attack every turn (I've held them back to block plenty of times), YP can start making tokens the turn you stick it, and YP can make multiple tokens in a single turn (if you're lucky).
Is Scourge of Valkas setting off any kindling for Dragonstorm decks?
Sadly, no. For it to be better than Bogardan Hellkite, you need to Dragonstorm for 6+. Even before Seething Song got banned, you would rarely see a Dragonstorm for more than 3-4. Hellkite and Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund are more than enough.
Apart from Predatory Sliver, Ooze, and Young Pyromancer, nothing has really jumped out so far.
Scourge of Valkas does make me want to try Dragonstorm again. I think him plus Bogardan Hellkite is just what is needed to make it finish people off easier. However, the fact that we no longer have Seething Song worries me.
Question: How would it play out if you brought out multiple Scourge of Valkas with Dragonstorm?
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"When you have the power to do something, it's hard not to try."
"The world is an endless abyss and tomorrow
draws you deeper into the darkness."
Question: How would it play out if you brought out multiple Scourge of Valkas with Dragonstorm?
The same as Valakut. If you have no other Dragons and bring out 4, you deal 16 damage total.
I don't think Scourge of Valkas will revive Dragonstorm. The only advantage it has over Hellkite is that you can hardcast it without burning a ton of rituals, but is that going to matter? Probably not. Storm decks are really miserable now, with only 3 drawback-free net gain rituals (SSG, Pyretic, Desperate).
Everyone here is wrong about how Scourge of Valkas works. They all see each other, so if you storm for a bunch of them you get the cube of the number in damage (i.e. three of them is lethal at 27). Certainly an upgrade over Hellkite. However, Dragonstorm has zero chance of being a deck with both Seething Song and Rite of Flame banned.
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When you peer long enough through the depths, the depths peer also through you.
Everyone here is wrong about how Scourge of Valkas works. They all see each other, so if you storm for a bunch of them you get the cube of the number in damage (i.e. three of them is lethal at 27). Certainly an upgrade over Hellkite. However, Dragonstorm has zero chance of being a deck with both Seething Song and Rite of Flame banned.
Yeah, I totally misread that card. For those that still don't see how it works, here's the breakdown:
Scourge 1 enters trigger: 3 damage
Scourge 2 enters trigger: 3 damage
Scourge 3 enters trigger: 3 damage
Scourge 1 trigger when Scourge 2 and 3 enter: 6 damage
Scourge 2 trigger when Scourge 3 and 1 enter: 6 damage
Scourge 3 trigger when Scourge 1 and 2 enter: 6 damage
27 damage in total. Still probably not enough to help out poor Dragonstorm with its loss of ritual mass. Infernal Plunge anyone...?
Getting enough storm isn't the issue right now, it's ramping to 8 w/out Seething Song.
People have suggested Infernal Plunge w/ Young Pyromancer to provide a replacement creature.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Unless I'm missing something it doesn't work that way. Say you have 3 storm and cast Dragonstorm, so you have 4 copies.
Copy 1 resolves and gets Scourge of Valkas. When it enters the battlefield the ability triggers and goes to the stack above the Dragonstorm copies. There's only one dragon, so 1 damage.
Copy 2 resolves and gets another Scourge of Valkas. Both abilities trigger, with two dragons, so 4 damage total.
Copy 3 does the same but with 3 triggers and 3 dragons, 9 damage total.
Lastly, copy 4 with 4 triggers and 4 dragons for 16 damage.
Unless I'm missing something it doesn't work that way. Say you have 3 storm and cast Dragonstorm, so you have 4 copies.
Copy 1 resolves and gets Scourge of Valkas. When it enters the battlefield the ability triggers and goes to the stack above the Dragonstorm copies. There's only one dragon, so 1 damage.
Copy 2 resolves and gets another Scourge of Valkas. Both abilities trigger, with two dragons, so 4 damage total.
Copy 3 does the same but with 3 triggers and 3 dragons, 9 damage total.
Lastly, copy 4 with 4 triggers and 4 dragons for 16 damage.
1+4+9+16=30 damage, like vlor said.
Except that all three dragons enter at the same time and each trigger themselves and the other 2 dragons. It's not step-wise ETB effect.
Edit: And just P.S. 4 dragons would be 64 damage.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
nah, its playability is dead in modern because its a terrible card.
I was just ganna bring up Forbidden Alchemy digs one deeper, is an instant and has a flashback bonus...
I'm wholly confused about the card being an uncommon. It's a mind bendingly bad divination at this point.
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
We played 4 games testing. The 2 games I had pyromancer in hand on turn 2 I was able to quickly run away with the match. The games where I didn't draw pyromancer were close, but he was able to win. He was playing UWR geist midrange.
What I found
Even if your opponent can find removal for the pyromancer, you can typically get at least 2 tokens off it, setting you pretty far ahead. Spell piercing his Electrolyze after casting pyromancer on turn 3 was a really powerful play, as it gave me a token, prevented his draw, and allowed me to untap with a remand, lightning bolt, and lightning helix in play. He eventually was able to bolt the pyromancer, but I was able to get 3 more tokens out of it as I bolted and helixed him. At that point in the game, he was was too far behind to win, and I was able to swing for lethal within a turn.
Against strategies like Tron, the pyromancer isn't really going to be much different than something like Geist. It can provide a clock, but if they start casting early wurmcoil engines and Karns, it's not going to be that helpful.
Against creature-based strategies, the tokens are potent chump blockers, and will trade with a lot of cards in the meta. If you have a lightning bolt in hand, you can bolt a Loxodon Smiter and block with the token to kill the smiter.
My current list
4x Young Pyromaner
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Lightning Angel
Instants / Sorceries
4x Thought Scour
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Spell Snare
4x Remand
4x Lightning Helix
2x Path to Exile
2x Spell Pierce
2x Serum Visions
3x Celestial Colonnade
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Arid Mesa
3x Steam Vents
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Sacred Foundry
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Mountain
1x Snow-Covered Plains
1x Seachrome Coast
2x Path to Exile
1x Repeal
3x Wear // Tear
2x Negate
2x Mizzium Skin
1x Spell Pierce
2x Stony Silence
2x Pyroclasm
In particular, the Badd B-like list felt way too dependent on an early YP. If I didn't lead with a threat (Tiago didn't count), I generally fell way too far back for the rest of the game because my counterspell and threat suite weren't good enough. I'm glad Badd B stuck two more creatures in his latest list.
I did try out a Legacy Grixis Delver list with YP on Cockatrice, though, and YP performed much better there. The free counterspells ensured I could tap out for YP without him immediately dying to removal, and the mana denial ensured opponents couldn't stick threats or answers just long enough to win. YP, unlike the other Grixis tempo buddy Tombstalker, also liked Bob.
To be fair, I haven't tested against Jund yet, so it's hard to say if it's just a matchup thing. I definitely think you need to find a "sweet spot" of having enough threats and enough spells to make pyromancer powerful.
It is tru that electrolize is the best card agaisnt it, but badd was able to keep me off it long enough to get value out of pyromancer.
It didnt help that i also had to deal with geist at the same time, while avoiding getting burned to 0.
I think YP has some serious potential in tempo builds but he certainly has to fill a niche. He will probably be more relevant in some sort of storm deck that somebody much smarter than me will brew.
Zero mana to make a 1/1 just seems too good not to see some sort of play, although it won't be initially obvious where. Easily a five dollar uncommon a couple sets down the road.
Then I tried 2 games against Melira Pod. Small sample size, I know, but in those 2 games, YP sucked. They didn't bother removing it and I lived the dream by making 4+ tokens with it regularly, but those tokens can't get through nearly all their men, and they kept accumulating 4+ creatures that were bigger than 1/1's. Having to bust all my Tiagos' removal spells on their summoning sick Deathrites hurt more (I didn't have removal in hand at the time). They comboed off to win both games. Goyf is similarly subpar against Melira Pod, yes, but at least it either forces them to block it or it mows over multiple guys if it dies to blocks.
Sadly, no. For it to be better than Bogardan Hellkite, you need to Dragonstorm for 6+. Even before Seething Song got banned, you would rarely see a Dragonstorm for more than 3-4. Hellkite and Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund are more than enough.
Apart from Predatory Sliver, Ooze, and Young Pyromancer, nothing has really jumped out so far.
Question: How would it play out if you brought out multiple Scourge of Valkas with Dragonstorm?
"The world is an endless abyss and tomorrow
draws you deeper into the darkness."
The same as Valakut. If you have no other Dragons and bring out 4, you deal 16 damage total.
I don't think Scourge of Valkas will revive Dragonstorm. The only advantage it has over Hellkite is that you can hardcast it without burning a ton of rituals, but is that going to matter? Probably not. Storm decks are really miserable now, with only 3 drawback-free net gain rituals (SSG, Pyretic, Desperate).
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Yeah, I totally misread that card. For those that still don't see how it works, here's the breakdown:
Scourge 1 enters trigger: 3 damage
Scourge 2 enters trigger: 3 damage
Scourge 3 enters trigger: 3 damage
Scourge 1 trigger when Scourge 2 and 3 enter: 6 damage
Scourge 2 trigger when Scourge 3 and 1 enter: 6 damage
Scourge 3 trigger when Scourge 1 and 2 enter: 6 damage
27 damage in total. Still probably not enough to help out poor Dragonstorm with its loss of ritual mass. Infernal Plunge anyone...?
People have suggested Infernal Plunge w/ Young Pyromancer to provide a replacement creature.
Copy 1 resolves and gets Scourge of Valkas. When it enters the battlefield the ability triggers and goes to the stack above the Dragonstorm copies. There's only one dragon, so 1 damage.
Copy 2 resolves and gets another Scourge of Valkas. Both abilities trigger, with two dragons, so 4 damage total.
Copy 3 does the same but with 3 triggers and 3 dragons, 9 damage total.
Lastly, copy 4 with 4 triggers and 4 dragons for 16 damage.
1+4+9+16=30 damage, like vlor said.
Except that all three dragons enter at the same time and each trigger themselves and the other 2 dragons. It's not step-wise ETB effect.
Edit: And just P.S. 4 dragons would be 64 damage.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Each Dragonstorm gets one dragon.
That seems so correct.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge