I was thinking, since the absence of strong draw spells like Ponder, Brainstorm, preordain, Skullclamp, Sensei's Divining top,..etc. what can we replace it besides from BoB?
anyone have any idea?
Magus of the bazaar + Squee Goblin Nabob
Thirst for Knowledge
anyone can add up. thanks!
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I'm currently testing Chandra 4.0 in Spirit Jund, and she actually provides pretty good CA as long as you don't mind never +0'ing her when you're tapped out. She actually behaves rather like Jace Beleren.
You've got Half a Fact or Fiction in Truth or Tale. Can't imagine how you could use it effectively though. Maybe separate the card you absolutely want in a singleton pile, that way you get to pick any of the four 'other cards'.
There's also Worldly Counsel but that requires a a 5 color fetch-shock manabase.
Not engines, but I did a quick search and the cards were interesting enough for me to post as I've never seen them before.
I am surprised no one has mentioned serum visions. Not nearly as good as the other 3 1cmc drawers but still a 1cmc draw spell that fixes your next draw to two.
new players as they show up maybe twice with some budget deck they've spent the week designing and testing only to be beaten into oblivion by expensive decks they cannot hope to obtain and I think this is a tragedy.
Jace B and (I loathe to admit it) Think Twice.
There's also in some roundabout fashion Mystical Teachings -> Blue Sun's Zenith -> flashback the Teachings -> Zenith some more (because SphinxRev don't shuffle back). Hell of a clunker move, but it's there.
Draw spells =/= draw engine. They are not the same.
This. When you have the same amount of cards in hand after casting a spell most likely all you've done is increased the quality of the cards in your hand. An actual engine gives you card advantage meaning you will have more cards. Another thing about an engine is that it usually implies that it is recurable or at least chain-able. You can use Oona's Grace or whispers of the muse as an engine. Think Twice has a pretty low chance of continuously supplying gas.
I honestly don't know why control decks play think twice. I suppose it's alright in reactive control, but honestly, it's pretty bad. 5 mana to draw two cards is just yuck! I much prefer sorcery speed if the quality is much better, such as concentrate or tidings,though I know they are generally too slow for modern. An engine? Well, in green you have enchantment/creature based such as fecundity and/or greater good. For more proactive decks in blue/black packing stuff like retrace (mostly raven's crime), you could try secrets of the dead or river kelpie. In essence, modern can't be about the raw power or efficiency formats like legacy or vintage have and still remain a turn 4 format. You have to rely more on the engines such as are demonstrated here and go more for synergies. Most of these are worth exploring, though.
Beleren replaces itself the turn it comes out and is card advantage from there out. With the definition above, that is a card draw engine.
It also takes 3 turns for Jace Beleren to be better than Divination, which I'm pretty sure most of us will agree is a bad card for modern power levels. That's also assuming Jace lives past the turn from which you cast it.
It also takes 3 turns for Jace Beleren to be better than Divination, which I'm pretty sure most of us will agree is a bad card for modern power levels. That's also assuming Jace lives past the turn from which you cast it.
Can't be compared since he also will soak up 5 damage in addition to that card draw.
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I honestly don't know why control decks play think twice. I suppose it's alright in reactive control, but honestly, it's pretty bad. 5 mana to draw two cards is just yuck! I much prefer sorcery speed if the quality is much better, such as concentrate or tidings,though I know they are generally too slow for modern...
I do agree with your sentiments; that said, the payment plan is split and gives you things to do when you've got nothing to spend your mana on to kill or counter.
It's a weird card, it's somewhere in the range of acceptable<->great under a philosophy of "maximize your options, minimize your risks" but under pure cost/benefit analysis it kinda reeks of bad cardboard.
Anyway, back onto the subject of the thread, Life from the Loam + Oona's Grace is a thing... possibly... really anything Retrace + LftL sounds like a value factory.
Can't be compared since he also will soak up 5 damage in addition to that card draw.
I think you kind of need to compare them in order to figure out which one is better for your deck?
Either way back on topic:
Eternal Witness + Sun Titan (The Eternal Command list) is a decent engine, and probably one of the better ones. (Add Jace for increased Sun Titan Synergy)
As for other CA engines: You could do Squee + Liliana (not card draw, exactly, but an engine). Some other cool cards with Lili aside from L. Souls: Think Twice, Bloodghast, Call of the Herd, Gravecrawler. (Why isn't Deep Analysis in Modern =[)
Soon, in black you'll have Dark Prophecy + any sac outlet (The new bombardment might be decent, it stretches your mana a bit, but, with things like Bloodghast RR + a land drop = a shock(to both people) and 2 card draws
That could be strong. You could also add Gravecrawler + another zombie, not sure which one is particularly stout enough to be able to chill there for awhile, maybe Lotleth Troll? (That stretches the manabase a bit, but you get the idea) And it's just as weak as Loam is to GY-hate, so, maybe not so strong.
@Fargsby: Deep Anal isn't in Modern because Wizards doesn't like fun.
"Fun" being UG MADNESS.
Oh man, what I'd do to make Odyssey retroactively Modern-legal...
Though, if they ever make the "mistake" of reprinting Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla, there's actually a good chance that RG Madness could go somewhere in Modern... if my idealism isn't getting the better of me, that is. /rambling about personal favorite archetype of MtG
But, to be serious about it, Deep Analysis, while a great card, isn't really the kind of card Wizards likes to make these days.
And it's also not the kind of draw spell I'd pack into every deck running blue; the sorcery speed is a bit of a killjoy. Big reason why it was so good back in the day was that you could cheese it with stuff like Psychatog/Wild Mongrel/Aquamoeba and get discounted draw off the flashback.
Now, with you mentioning the unkillable goblin, it's got me thinking; Squee + looting effects, that's something that catches my eye. Granted, running Squee just for discard fodder doesn't seem like a good idea, and he's a 1/1 legendary for 2R so his applications on the board are kinda nonexistent... yeah, maybe that plan's too janky for practical use, I dunno...
@Fargsby: Deep Anal isn't in Modern because Wizards doesn't like fun.
"Fun" being UG MADNESS.
Oh man, what I'd do to make Odyssey retroactively Modern-legal...
Though, if they ever make the "mistake" of reprinting Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla, there's actually a good chance that RG Madness could go somewhere in Modern... if my idealism isn't getting the better of me, that is. /rambling about personal favorite archetype of MtG
But, to be serious about it, Deep Analysis, while a great card, isn't really the kind of card Wizards likes to make these days.
And it's also not the kind of draw spell I'd pack into every deck running blue; the sorcery speed is a bit of a killjoy. Big reason why it was so good back in the day was that you could cheese it with stuff like Psychatog/Wild Mongrel/Aquamoeba and get discounted draw off the flashback.
Now, with you mentioning the unkillable goblin, it's got me thinking; Squee + looting effects, that's something that catches my eye. Granted, running Squee just for discard fodder doesn't seem like a good idea, and he's a 1/1 legendary for 2R so his applications on the board are kinda nonexistent... yeah, maybe that plan's too janky for practical use, I dunno...
I've wanted it in Modern ever since i got to discard it to Liliana OTV in Cube =/
Bloodghast, altar's reap, and Dark Prophecy from m14 could be fun. Instant speed, draw 3 cards for 1B and 1 life? Sounds filthy, especially when you get can crack a fetch to get your ghast back at the end of your opponent's turn. Splash blue for snapcaster, maybe forbidden alchemy. Could also stick a loam-retrace engine in there, along with liliana, which would work well with recurring your fetches to keep your bloodghasts coming out of the graveyard on command. Alternatively, could probably go the Pod route, using eternal witness to recur snapcaster mage.
Dark condidant is the best draw engine. I'm surprised phyrexian arena hasn't been mentioned, but that's also pretty good. You also have life from the loam (which is not a draw spell, its a draw engine), scrying sheets (with snow-covered lands)...thats all I can think of off the top of my head, but I know there's more.
it is marginal even compared to the others I mentioned (which are in themselves kinda rogue) because Mine by itself is either dead early, or too much CA for opponent.
anyone have any idea?
Magus of the bazaar + Squee Goblin Nabob
Thirst for Knowledge
anyone can add up. thanks!
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UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
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Pod goes with ghetto CA with Birthing Pod and recursive guys.
Gifts Ungiven is pretty good.
Mono-U Tron likes Thirst for Knowledge.
Affinity plays Thoughtcast.
I'm currently testing Chandra 4.0 in Spirit Jund, and she actually provides pretty good CA as long as you don't mind never +0'ing her when you're tapped out. She actually behaves rather like Jace Beleren.
When active you can draw a ton of cards at the same time as fueling graveyard strategies.
There's also Worldly Counsel but that requires a a 5 color fetch-shock manabase.
Not engines, but I did a quick search and the cards were interesting enough for me to post as I've never seen them before.
At sorcery speed you also have Compulsive Research
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There's also in some roundabout fashion Mystical Teachings -> Blue Sun's Zenith -> flashback the Teachings -> Zenith some more (because SphinxRev don't shuffle back). Hell of a clunker move, but it's there.
Draw spells =/= draw engine. They are not the same.
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This. When you have the same amount of cards in hand after casting a spell most likely all you've done is increased the quality of the cards in your hand. An actual engine gives you card advantage meaning you will have more cards. Another thing about an engine is that it usually implies that it is recurable or at least chain-able. You can use Oona's Grace or whispers of the muse as an engine. Think Twice has a pretty low chance of continuously supplying gas.
Some of the most "troll" decks were built around it (e.g. Turbofog, Owling Mine).
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Notion Thief + Jace Beleren = repeated fun.
Not engines per se, but they do net some good CA.
There is also Heartless Summoning + Mulldrifter. CA +1 for U.
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It also takes 3 turns for Jace Beleren to be better than Divination, which I'm pretty sure most of us will agree is a bad card for modern power levels. That's also assuming Jace lives past the turn from which you cast it.
As for cards that you can legitimately build a basic control deck around that give you raw draw-power, you're probably looking at Esper Charm, Thirst for Knowledge, Gifts Ungiven, Cruel Ultimatum, Sphinx's Revelation, Jace's Ingenuity, and Blue Sun's Zenith for your basic draw or card selection engines.
Some fringe card draw engines would include Desparate Ravings, Forbidden Alchemy, Think Twice, Phyrexian Arena, Jace 3.0, and Garruk 2.0.
Can't be compared since he also will soak up 5 damage in addition to that card draw.
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I do agree with your sentiments; that said, the payment plan is split and gives you things to do when you've got nothing to spend your mana on to kill or counter.
It's a weird card, it's somewhere in the range of acceptable<->great under a philosophy of "maximize your options, minimize your risks" but under pure cost/benefit analysis it kinda reeks of bad cardboard.
Anyway, back onto the subject of the thread, Life from the Loam + Oona's Grace is a thing... possibly... really anything Retrace + LftL sounds like a value factory.
Howling Mine + Notion Thief
I think you kind of need to compare them in order to figure out which one is better for your deck?
Either way back on topic:
Eternal Witness + Sun Titan (The Eternal Command list) is a decent engine, and probably one of the better ones. (Add Jace for increased Sun Titan Synergy)
As for other CA engines: You could do Squee + Liliana (not card draw, exactly, but an engine). Some other cool cards with Lili aside from L. Souls: Think Twice, Bloodghast, Call of the Herd, Gravecrawler. (Why isn't Deep Analysis in Modern =[)
Mulldrifter + Blink/Reanimation: Crystal Shard, Makeshift Mannequin, Grim Return, Momentary Blink.
Soon, in black you'll have Dark Prophecy + any sac outlet (The new bombardment might be decent, it stretches your mana a bit, but, with things like Bloodghast RR + a land drop = a shock(to both people) and 2 card draws
That could be strong. You could also add Gravecrawler + another zombie, not sure which one is particularly stout enough to be able to chill there for awhile, maybe Lotleth Troll? (That stretches the manabase a bit, but you get the idea) And it's just as weak as Loam is to GY-hate, so, maybe not so strong.
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"Fun" being UG MADNESS.
Oh man, what I'd do to make Odyssey retroactively Modern-legal...
Though, if they ever make the "mistake" of reprinting Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla, there's actually a good chance that RG Madness could go somewhere in Modern... if my idealism isn't getting the better of me, that is. /rambling about personal favorite archetype of MtG
But, to be serious about it, Deep Analysis, while a great card, isn't really the kind of card Wizards likes to make these days.
And it's also not the kind of draw spell I'd pack into every deck running blue; the sorcery speed is a bit of a killjoy. Big reason why it was so good back in the day was that you could cheese it with stuff like Psychatog/Wild Mongrel/Aquamoeba and get discounted draw off the flashback.
Now, with you mentioning the unkillable goblin, it's got me thinking; Squee + looting effects, that's something that catches my eye. Granted, running Squee just for discard fodder doesn't seem like a good idea, and he's a 1/1 legendary for 2R so his applications on the board are kinda nonexistent... yeah, maybe that plan's too janky for practical use, I dunno...
I've wanted it in Modern ever since i got to discard it to Liliana OTV in Cube =/
That felt so good.
You could also pair Squee with Lotleth Troll
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